Scottish Independence - What say you?

Batsy

Who most wants independence for Scotland? The English…

If the Union referendum were held south of the border, Alex Salmond would be more likely to get his way

Andrew Rawnsley
The Observer, Sunday 29 January 2012

In his recent Hugo Young lecture about Scottish independence, Alex Salmond used some of the lines of Robert Burns, which was predictable of the Nationalist leader, and, which was more unexpected, he quoted GK Chesterton, a quintessentially English writer. On the future of the Union, said Scotland's first minister, he was reminded of Chesterton's reference to "the people of England who have not spoken yet".

That they have not. As the SNP leader has wrangled with Downing Street about the nature and timing of a referendum in Scotland, the arguments about the future of the United Kingdom have been framed almost exclusively in terms of the hopes, fears and desires of the minority of Britons who live north of the border. The majority of the citizens of the United Kingdom – the people of England – have been treated as an irrelevance, a nuisance or an afterthought. The people of Wales and those of Northern Ireland also have a major interest in the future of the UK and have likewise been ignored.

It has been so for years. The presumption among politicians of nearly every stripe has been that the Union Question only animates Scots and is for Scots alone to answer. While expressing a polite interest in what the rest of the UK might think, this remains the stance of Mr Salmond who says: "The future of Scotland is for Scotland alone to determine." In taking this position, he has some strange bedfellows in other parties. I recently suggested to a senior Tory that it would only be fair to give England the chance to have a say on whether it wanted independence from Scotland. He spluttered that this was a mad idea because "the Union is not an issue" for the English. This scoffing response to the idea that the voters of England might be consulted may have been coloured by the fact that he is one of the many Scottish Tories who have taken refuge in English seats in the Commons, an escape from their party's unpopularity north of the border that will no longer be available if the two countries go their separate ways.

An ICM poll for the Guardian, published last week, had a 55% majority of Scottish respondents agreeing with the SNP leader that "Scotland's future is a matter for the Scottish people alone". In England and Wales, two-thirds of those surveyed thought: "Scotland's future is very important for the whole UK and so should not be settled without the people of England and Wales being consulted in a referendum too." Tory-leaning voters were especially emphatic about that, three-quarters of them saying the fate of the Union should be decided by everyone in the Union.

It would be wrong, though, to conclude that the people of England want their own referendum in order to try to hold Scotland in the Union against its will. The opposite would be closer to the truth. Another recent poll, by YouGov for Prospect, indicated that only a small minority of English voters would be all that bothered by a break-up. Most were relaxed, and rather a lot positively embraced, the idea of a divorce. By 52% to 32%, English voters favoured either maximum devolution for Scotland or independence – a bigger margin of support for the SNP prospectus than there is in Scotland itself.

Research by the Institute for Public Policy Research suggests some reasons why. The number of people in England identifying themselves as English rather than British is rising and with it is a growing feeling that England gets a raw deal from the Union. There is English irritation about the financial deal that allocates more public spending per head to Scotland. In my experience, a sense of unfairness is felt most keenly in northern England where people look on with understandable annoyance at the superior political clout and more generous cash transfers enjoyed by the Scots.

As the debate about the Union grows more intense, an English resentment that has simmered for years could well come to a boiling point. The YouGov poll found the English feel that the Scots get a better deal from the Union by a whopping margin of 11 to 1.

Also influencing English attitudes towards the Union is the belief that England could get on very well without Scotland. On the rare occasions when any politician bothers to address the English on the Union, they usually contend that it enhances global influence. This is not an argument that the voters buy into. Less than a fifth of English voters think that Scottish independence would diminish the rest of Britain's clout in the world. Without Scotland, the UK would shrink fairly dramatically in geographic size, but not all that much in terms of population. There are roughly 5.5 million Scots, which is rather less than the population of London. The ranking on the economic world league table would not much change. England and Scotland already play their football and rugby in separate teams. The departure of Scotland might make it a bit harder to justify having a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, but that has been an anomaly for years now and yet we have somehow contrived to hold on to it. YouGov found that more than two-thirds of English respondents felt that the departure of Scotland would make no difference at all to the rest of Britain's international standing.

Paradoxically, though, the attitudes of England may not be entirely good news for the cause of Scottish independence in the long run. The Nationalists have historically fed on and fuelled Scottish resentment about "alien" English rule from London. In the past, Mr Salmond has referred to Westminster as "a government of occupation" on Scots. In recent times, the SNP has endeavoured to offer a more positive account of why Scotland ought to choose independence, but nationalism still veers to arguments about casting off the "English yoke" and leans heavily on Braveheartish symbols. The SNP leader would like to stage the referendum in 2014, the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn, one of those rare Scottish victories over England on the battlefield when Robert the Bruce and his stubborn warriors defeated a large and haughty force of English knights.

Arrogant English opposition towards the break-up of the Union might very well play into Mr Salmond's hands. But blissful indifference among the English? Eager relish even? That may be trickier for him to handle. The English saying that they'd love to see the back of Scotland might just make cussed Scots determined to stay.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/29/andrew-rawnsley-english-pro-scottish-independence

Batsy

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

No those lists belie this

'Why on Earth would it bother me if Scotland became independent?

You are bothered, that is why you post in these threads (admittedly most of your posts are copy & paste jobs from the media, something which got you banned in Politics)

As a Tory voter I'll be glad to see the back of Scotland.

Because an independent Scotland will be good for the Tory Party.

dlofnep

LOL - Apparently, this Michelle Mone has already moved the majority of her company out of Scotland, given that 89% of her employees are based in China and only 3.1% in Scotland. I'm sure she'll be missed!

Batsy

dlofnep wrote: »

LOL - Apparently, this Michelle Mone has already moved the majority of her company out of Scotland, given that 89% of her employees are based in China and only 3.1% in Scotland. I'm sure she'll be missed!

That matters not. It shows that there are Scots who are worried about whether an independent Scotland will be able to go it alone.

dlofnep

Batsy wrote: »

That matters not. It shows that there are Scots who are worried about whether an independent Scotland will be able to go it alone.

LOL!

Here she is.. masquerading as this business woman loyal to Scotland, threatening to take her company to England if the people of Scotland favoured independence - when all this time, 90% of her workforce is based in slave-labour factories in China!

Auldloon

Batsy wrote: »

The Scots don't like the Irish that much, either. Have you ever been to a Rangers match?

I'm Irish and live in scotland, have done for years. The Scottish love the Irish to the point where it's almost embarrassing.
Rangers fans are hated over here by everyone other than other rangers fans.

Batsy

dlofnep wrote: »

LOL!

Here she is.. masquerading as this business woman loyal to Scotland, threatening to take her company to England if the people of Scotland favoured independence - when all this time, 90% of her workforce is based in slave-labour factories in China!

Ultimo is a Scottish company based in East Kilbride in Scotland.

But, upon independence, it may suddenly become based in England.

Batsy

Chuileog wrote: »

The Scottish love the Irish to the point where it's almost embarrassing.

No, they don't. The Scots probably hate the Irish more than they hate the English. Maybe the Irish are just too arrogant to see that.

Also, try being a Catholic in Scotland. That'd be a very dangerous thing to do.

dlofnep

Batsy wrote: »

Ultimo is a Scottish company based in East Kilbride in Scotland.

But, upon independence, it may suddenly become based in England.

And Scots shouldn't favour self determination because a Scottish company, which employs only 3.1% actually in Scotland might move south to England? There'll be more than ample business growth in Scotland after independence. If this is your game-changer, I'd say Salmond has won already.

dlofnep

Batsy wrote: »

No, they don't. The Scots probably hate the Irish more than they hate the English. Maybe the Irish are just too arrogant to see that.

LOL - absurd nonsense. Right-wing, conservative loyalist bigots might hate the Irish - but the overwhelming majority of the Scottish people like Ireland and the Irish people.

Batsy wrote: »

Also, try being a Catholic in Scotland. That'd be a very dangerous thing to do.

No it isn't. 16% of the Scottish population is Catholic, and they get on just fine. Isolated incidents from loyalist bigots isn't representative of the entire Scottish population.

Batsy

dlofnep wrote: »

And Scots shouldn't favour self determination because a Scottish company, which employs only 3.1% actually in Scotland might move south to England?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there are Scots, should as Michelle Mone, who feel that an independent Scotland wouldn't be able to cut it in the big wide world.

There'll be more than ample business growth in Scotland after independence.

Yeah? Can you prove it?

A Dub in Glasgo

Batsy wrote: »

As a Tory voter I'll be glad to see the back of Scotland.

Because an independent Scotland will be good for the Tory Party.

So you are not bothered but glad therefore you support Scotland becoming independent?

dlofnep

Batsy wrote: »

I'm saying that there are Scots, should as Michelle Mone, who feel that an independent Scotland wouldn't be able to cut it in the big wide world.

And there are many more who believe it can cut it in the 'big wide world'. What's your point? That there are 'some people' who do not favour independence? Where did you find this shocking news that nobody has been privy to?

Batsy

dlofnep wrote: »

No it isn't. 16% of the Scottish population is Catholic,

And Catholics in Scotland were victims in 58% of the 693 criminal offences aggravated by religious prejudice in 2010/11, the highest recorded number in four years. Protestants were victims in 37 percent of cases, while crimes related to Judaism comprised 2.3 percent and Islam 2.1 percent.


http://www.socialistunity.com/anti-irish-catholic-racism-and-bigotry-remains-scotlands-shame/

You are safer being an Irish Catholic in England than you are in Scotland.

Nodin

Batsy wrote: »

As a Tory voter I'll be glad to see the back of Scotland.

.........................

...if thats the case, why are you constantly ranting about it and how its a bad idea?

Batsy

dlofnep wrote: »

And there are many more who believe it can cut it in the 'big wide world'. What's your point? That there are 'some people' who do not favour independence? Where did you find this shocking news that nobody has been privy to?

And if the leaders of 100 to 200 Scottish firms believe that independence will be bad for Scotland then an independent Scotland will have to go through the humiliation of seeing 100 to 200 Scottish firms waving goodvye to Scotland.

dlofnep

Batsy wrote: »

And Catholics in Scotland were victims in 58% of the 693 criminal offences aggravated by religious prejudice in 2010/11, the highest recorded number in four years. Protestants were victims in 37 percent of cases, while crimes related to Judaism comprised 2.3 percent and Islam 2.1 percent.

Like I said - isolated incidents from loyalist bigots is not representative of the entire Scottish population.

Batsy wrote: »

You are safer being an Irish Catholic in England than you are in Scotland.

We're not all Catholic you know. I'm safe in Ireland, England, Scotland or Wales. You walk down the wrong street in any of these countries - and someone will find a reason to dislike you. It's not unique to Scotland.

dlofnep

Batsy wrote: »

And if the leaders of 100 to 200 Scottish firms believe that independence will be bad for Scotland then an independent Scotland will have to go through the humiliation of seeing 100 to 200 Scottish firms waving goodvye to Scotland.

Eh, no it won't.

Batsy

dlofnep wrote: »

Like I said - isolated incidents from loyalist bigots is not representative of the entire Scottish population.

I'm not sure if it is isolated incidents, but considering that 58% of the victims of race-hate crime in Scotland are Catholics proves that the Scots hate Catholics more than they hate other religions.

Scots were asked: Is anti-Catholic prejudice rife in Scotland?

45% said YES.
40% said NO.

http://www.thirdforcenews.org.uk/2011/09/is-anti-catholic-prejudice-rife-in-scotland/

One of the many ironies of this situation is that in “doing something about the problem” the SNP government are ignoring the real issue in Scotland.

Of course there is a problem in Scotland of anti-Catholic hatred, but it cannot be understood without also factoring in anti-Irish racism.

They are intertwined because of the history of large scale Irish immigration in Scotland at the height of the British Empire when Ireland was very much a colonial possession of the London Imperium.

Occupational parity was achieved by Catholics of Irish descent in Glasgow in 2001, in New York the same social progress was reached in 1901.


http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/12/20/57934/

We're not all Catholic you know. I'm safe in Ireland, England, Scotland or Wales.

In Scotland you aren't. Not if you're Catholic.

Auldloon

Batsy wrote: »

No, they don't. The Scots probably hate the Irish more than they hate the English. Maybe the Irish are just too arrogant to see that.

Also, try being a Catholic in Scotland. That'd be a very dangerous thing to do.

Well when people here constantly say things to me like,
"I love the Irish"
I take from that that they don't hate us.

I have tried being a catholic in scotland, tried it for nearly 10 years now.

You haven't a clue what you are on about do you.

I gave up arguing with strangers on the Internet a few years ago and have no desire to start tonight so I'm out.

dlofnep

Batsy wrote: »

I'm not sure if it is isolated incidents, but considering that 58% of the victims of race-hate crime in Scotland are Catholics proves that the Scots hate Catholics more than they hate other religions.

No, it doesn't I'm afraid. All it proves is that loyalist bigots are more likely to engage in hate-crimes more than anyone else. Once again, they do not represent the majority of the Scottish people and are the shame of Scotland.

Nodin

Batsy wrote: »

I'm not (..............)


In Scotland you aren't. Not if you're Catholic.

Once again -

As a Tory voter I'll be glad to see the back of Scotland.

if thats the case, why are you constantly ranting about it and how its a bad idea?

KeithAFC

Trying to bring religion into it in regards to Scottish independence is pathetic. The attempt to try and make Scotland out like some sort of oppressive country is nonsense.

Ickle Magoo

Batsy wrote: »

In Scotland you aren't. Not if you're Catholic.

Wow - someone should have told me that, before I married someone raised as an Irish Catholic...not to mention my dad's best mate who's a catholic rangers fan. While there may be issues for a minority of people in scotland with whatever religion they aren't (bit like a certain other island not a million miles away) - the majority go on with life with sectarianism or even just religion in general being something they just read about in the paper or see in the news.

You're a tory?! Lol. Don't know why I'm bothering to explain - whether the tory party belongs in scotland is certainly something every religion in scotland agrees on. :pac:

A Dub in Glasgo

Batsy, it is time to give up when even Keith tells you it is pathetic

I am still confused though, the vast majority of your posts are about how it is a bad idea for Scotland to become independent then you say you will be glad. I think the hatred you have of all things Scottish stems from you being a Tory voter and you blame the Scots for denying the Tories their god given right to rule the UK

bwatson

Nodin wrote: »

Once again -



if thats the case, why are you constantly ranting about it and how its a bad idea?

You need to understand that just because you have directed a question towards him, he is under no obligation to provide you with an answer. You clearly see yourself as Boards.ie's version of Paxman

bwatson

Chuileog wrote: »

Well when people here constantly say things to me like,
"I love the Irish"
I take from that that they don't hate us.

I have tried being a catholic in scotland, tried it for nearly 10 years now.

You haven't a clue what you are on about do you.

I gave up arguing with strangers on the Internet a few years ago and have no desire to start tonight so I'm out.

What percentage of these people have rosary beads and a tricolour tattood onto their lower leg?

dlofnep

bwatson wrote: »

What percentage of these people have rosary beads and a tricolour tattood onto their lower leg?

So people in Scotland have to have rosary beads, or tricolour tattoos to like Irish people? What sort of bizarre logic is that?

Mike 1972

Batsy wrote: »

considering that 58% of the victims of race-hate crime in Scotland are Catholics .

Catholics are a race

LH Pathe

sure enough. but I'm sure the slimey business nurds say other with their capitalist caps on