TV set with DVB-T2 and DVB-S2

BionicRasher

STB wrote: »

Its nothing personal !

Panasonic may well be top class in your mind, but their basic operation in Ireland has to be questioned if not certified given their previous form. Feature set !!!! Dony you think that the basics should be available in your L model given they are advertised for Ireland!

Look I only suggest you google Panasonic and boards.ie and you will understand my justification for only a "moron would recommend".....

OK - but show me what basics are not available that Panasonic have advertised for this TV?
Everything seems to work for me - DVB-S feed is fine DVB-T feed is fine it seems that the TV is operating as expected and basically doing its job of providing a combo set of TV feeds

When I bought this TV I was also looking for a combo TV and after a small amount of research I got this and it is performing exactly as it said on the tin. I was obviously delighted that I could pick up Saorview and Freesat so that’s all I expected

TBH I got this TV for the DVB-S, PVR and Ethernet connection features - it’s a bonus that it gets Saorview but for 3 and a bit pretty poor stations provided by Saorview I could do without.
The 'feature set' of the TV is top notch compared to similar priced and sized TVs on the market at the time of purchase and I don’t see any item that Panasonic advertised that is not working on the TV

STB

tui0hcg wrote: »

OK - but show me what basics are not available that Panasonic have advertised for this TV?
Everything seems to work for me - DVB-S feed is fine DVB-T feed is fine it seems that the TV is operating as expected and basically doing its job of providing a combo set of TV feeds

When I bought this TV I was also looking for a combo TV and after a small amount of research I got this and it is preforming excatly as it said on the tin. I was obviusly delighted that I could pick up Saorview and Freesat so thats all I expected

MHEG5 is a minimum requirement for Digital TV in Ireland. It was a minumum requirement in [url=https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/10144/151838.pdf[/url] when first published. Your TV was marketed for Ireland in 2010 ? And still doesnt have the basic digital TV requirements for this country... middleware is a basic requirement ! Other countries profiled are fine of course. We do not use MHP!

BionicRasher

STB wrote: »

MHEG5 is a minimum requirement for Digital TV in Ireland. It was a minumum requirement in 2008 when first published. Your TV was marketed for Ireland in 2010 ? And still doesnt have the basic digital TV requirements for this country. Other countries I am sure have !

The TV is not certified or advertised to work with Saorview so I don’t see where the minimum requirement even enters the equation

The OP asked for a list of TVs with dual inputs and this is one of those TVs

Dont want to bicker as I see your point but I am only providing information on a TV that fits the bill for the OP

STB

tui0hcg wrote: »

The TV is not certified or advertised to work with Saorview so I don’t see where the minimum requirement even enters the equation

The OP asked for a list of TVs with dual inputs and this is one of those TVs

Dont want to bicker as I see your point but I am only providing information on a TV that fits the bill for the OP

Okay... I would rather not be seen as some anti Panasonic crank but how many threads is there about problems with Panasonic products and Irish DTT? Certainly I was less than impressed in recommending them in the past only to discover that the firmware in both the first and second set of Freesat HD MPEG4 combo TVs had been short written to decode ONLY Mpeg2 flagged broadcasts on DTT despite the Tv's capabilities. The people who bought these products here where even less impressed.

Richer sounds took a view on this a good while back given the brand uncertainty and compatibility.

Dont you think that it a reasonable expectation that TVs marketed at this country that include an integrated Digital TV tuner should have fully preloaded software and middleware for this country ?

You are right. This is nothing to do with certfication. This has to do with how products are shipped and marketed. If we are part of Pan European product line, then the country setup option should at least enable the decoding of the 2 basics of the countries broadcast platform regardless of conformity to the full spec!

Certification via Saorview logos is of course about bringing certainty to punters so that punters dont have to second guess IF manufacturers are on the ball or even mildly interested that the country they are marketing their products at and that the not in-expensive item does have the basic requirements to decode and display that countries published broadcast standard. It is for this very reason that you do not see ATSC tuners marketed here!

As an aside how many Panasonic products have Saorview certification ? Is it a lack of interest or a lack of suitable products ?

BionicRasher

The TV fits the bill for the OP
I recommend it you don’t

End of.

STB

tui0hcg wrote: »

The TV fits the bill for the OP
I recommend it you don’t

End of.

Again Nothing personal. You have your view. I have mine and I hope I have backed up the reasons why. I am glad you are happy with your Irish marketed Panasonic TV despite it missing the basic requirements for Irish Digital TV enjoyment. Of course we have had this discussion before. MHEG5 isnt the be all and end all and if that was the only downfall then maybe it isnt the worst shortcoming compared with those of Panasonic combos in the past. Do be aware that the L model range are only now and next on the Satellite EPG which goes against the reasoning for the majority who buy combo TVs in the first instance ie Freesat software.

Who would be a consumer eh ?

BionicRasher

STB wrote: »

Nothing personal. You have your view. I have mine and I hope I have backed up the reasons why. I am glad you are happy with your Irish marketed Panasonic TV despite it missing the basic requirements for Irish Digital TV enjoyment. Of course we have had this discussion before. MHEG5 isnt the be all and end all and if that was the only downfall then maybe it isnt the worst shortcoming compared with those in the past. Do be aware that the L model range are only now and next on the Satellite EPG which goes against the reasoning for the majority who buy combo TVs in the first instance ie Freesat software.

Who would be a consumer eh ?

And I hope I have backed up the reasons why I have my view too - the TV has dual tuners (as requested by the OP) and works with Saorview and Freesat getting you the required channels and many people dont give a fiddlers about MHEG5 as long as they can watch a bit of BBC HD or other UK Freesat stuff and maybe a bit of what Saorview can offer too.

Happy days when you can get a great TV at that price with the 2 tuners and no extra boxes hanging off it to clutter up the room

BionicRasher

I used to get mad about the MHEG5 bit missing on the TV but gave up that cross a while back and now I am more than happy with the TV - if at a future date it gives up the ghost and wont do Saorview then I will deal with that when it comes but at the moment its a great bit of kit

championc

Anti Panasonic threads all started after 04 Nov 2010 when 100% previously satisfied Panny owners suddenly wanted their TV's to give them access to something for which the product was never intended to feature and for which the feature in the product was also not bought for.

People had bought LZ81's and G10L's (and others) and were delighted with them. Along came the Saorview "trial" and all of a sudden people had a BONUS of access using these TV's which were also able to pick up UK Freeview channels due to the MPEG-2 decoders on-board. So owners were celebrating having access to the Irish channels in glorious digital. Saorview was then "officially" launched on 31 Oct 2010 and the joy continued. Then, on 04 Nov 2010, the codec flag was changed from 0x01 to 0x16. There was no change in the transmission signals but the problem occurred when a "Freeview" set tried to scan looking for 0x01 channels and found none.

Their BONUS was suddenly gone. Owners got upset that Panny wouldn't change firmware to do something for which the Panny's were never intended. Ever since, the Panny's have been slagged off by several people. I 100% agree with tui0hcg that the Panny's sold do exactly what they promise. We all know that with a bit of effort, Panny could make a perfect product - but that's not the point.

Remember too that before the arrival of Sky and UPC boxes, the majority of sets sold in Ireland carried dual UHF and VHF equipped in order to cater for Cable customers. So certain features were sacrificed for the inclusion of the VHF.

So I am quite sure that anyone who bought a Panny and who were unhappy with them would have bought them straight back to where they came from but in all honesty, you can't go trying to return stuff a year or so later when it was previously the greatest thing ever.

NewHillel

championc wrote: »

Their BONUS was suddenly gone. Owners got upset that Panny wouldn't change firmware to do something for which the Panny's were never intended.

Silly me, there was I thinking that a Tv sold in Ireland should be able to pick up Irish TV broadcasts!

Time was Panasonic would have been top of my list. No longer.

BionicRasher

NewHillel wrote: »

Silly me, there was I thinking that a Tv sold in Ireland should be able to pick up Irish TV broadcasts!

Time was Panasonic would have been top of my list. No longer.

They can pick up Irish TV broadcasts
Just that they are not Saorview approved

STB

championc wrote: »

Anti Panasonic threads all started after 04 Nov 2010 when 100% previously satisfied Panny owners suddenly wanted their TV's to give them access to something for which the product was never intended to feature and for which the feature in the product was also not bought for.


People had bought LZ81's and G10L's (and others) and were delighted with them. Along came the Saorview "trial" and all of a sudden people had a BONUS of access using these TV's which were also able to pick up UK Freeview channels due to the MPEG-2 decoders on-board. So owners were celebrating having access to the Irish channels in glorious digital. Saorview was then "officially" launched on 31 Oct 2010 and the joy continued. Then, on 04 Nov 2010, the codec flag was changed from 0x01 to 0x16. There was no change in the transmission signals but the problem occurred when a "Freeview" set tried to scan looking for 0x01 channels and found none.

Their BONUS was suddenly gone. Owners got upset that Panny wouldn't change firmware to do something for which the Panny's were never intended. Ever since, the Panny's have been slagged off by several people. I 100% agree with tui0hcg that the Panny's sold do exactly what they promise. We all know that with a bit of effort, Panny could make a perfect product - but that's not the point.

Remember too that before the arrival of Sky and UPC boxes, the majority of sets sold in Ireland carried dual UHF and VHF equipped in order to cater for Cable customers. So certain features were sacrificed for the inclusion of the VHF.

So I am quite sure that anyone who bought a Panny and who were unhappy with them would have bought them straight back to where they came from but in all honesty, you can't go trying to return stuff a year or so later when it was previously the greatest thing ever.

No. Totally untrue.

The threads started a LONG time before that. It started with the PZ81 range released for HD Freesat and DVB-T in 2008/9. I suggest you search before jumping to Panasonic's defence with complete nonsense.

History
Panasonic released their first HD combo TV range in mid 2008. Combo means a DVB-T and DVB-S tuners. These combos have an MPEG4 processor on board to decode the HD broadcasts from the Satellite tuner via Freesat (MPEG4 broadcasts) and a DVB-T tuner which to the spec meant they had the capability to decode MPEG4 broadcasts via DVB-T .

And they did initially when RTE first broadcast MPEG4 (from day 1) but with an MPEG2 data descriptor.

When RTE changed this dvb descriptor in early 2009 people soon discovered through this forum that the software on the Panasonic combo TVs were deliberately crippled to disallow the reception of anything not flagged 0x01 which is MPEG2 broadcasts even though the hardware can decode (and did) MPEG4 broadcasts. This was through the fault of deliberately short written firmware. People have taken to hacking these TVs through the use of hotel files given that no solution was offered to these purchasers in Ireland by Panasonic.

Secondly there was NO RTE Trial. There was a DCMNR trial with BT which finished in July 2008. In August 2008 RTE started broadcasting DVB-T MPEG4 broadcasts and gradually started kitting and rolling out the main TX sites around the country. Initially these broadcasts did use the 0x01 descriptor. It changed in 2009 to 0x16 which is a flag for SD Advanced Codec of MPEG4. These were not defined in the 1st Panasonic Freesat HD Combo range of Pz81/LZD81. A few lines of code.

Then LG released a range of Freesat Combo TVs in April 2009 (LF7700). LG didnt employ shortcuts in the firmware and the TVs work fine with Saorview and have the full suite of DVB-T flags defined.

Then Panasonic released their 2nd range of Freesat Combo Tvs in mid 2009 - the G10b/15b range which again had shortcuts in the firmware for DVB-T reception in Ireland. People have taken to hacking them via the onboard hex editor as no other solution has been made available.

Then Sony released a Freesat Combo range (W5810) and like LG didnt employ Panasonic's narrow interpretation of what the TV should and shouldn't decode on the DVB-T side.

It is only NOW in the TV you bought (the G20b) that the consumer doesnt have to second guess what Panasonic have or havent employed as shortcuts. And the reason for that ? The full list of service descriptors MUST be defined for the terrestrial tuner for Freeview HD whih uses the MPEG4 processor and requires the full list !

Bonuses indeed! Bottom line. Panasonic were the only manufacturer of Combo TVs NOT to define the full list of services in their DVB-T/DVB-S Freesat range.

As a footnote to all of this given the uncertainty employed by manufacturers in how they ship and pre-program TVs with certain standards (or not) of countries published standards, RTENL had to introduce a certification process. This is where manufacturers submit their suitable products to Terracom for bench testing and can then be sold with Saorview certification badge, if they pass.

Walker where the first to get certification in 2010. Since then an additional 16 other manufacturing TV brands have received Saorview certification. Panasonic is not among them.

joceadaigh

STB wrote: »

No. Totally untrue.

The threads started a LONG time before that. It started with the PZ81 range released for HD Freesat and DVB-T in 2008/9. I suggest you search before jumping to Panasonic's defence with complete nonsense.

History
Panasonic released their first HD combo TV range in mid 2008. Combo means a DVB-T and DVB-S tuners. These combos have an MPEG4 processor on board to decode the HD broadcasts from the Satellite tuner via Freesat (MPEG4 broadcasts) and a DVB-T tuner which to the spec meant they had the capability to decode MPEG4 broadcasts via DVB-T .

And they did initially when RTE first broadcast MPEG4 (from day 1) but with an MPEG2 data descriptor.

When RTE changed this dvb descriptor in early 2009 people soon discovered through this forum that the software on the Panasonic combo TVs were deliberately crippled to disallow the reception of anything not flagged 0x01 which is MPEG2 broadcasts even though the hardware can decode (and did) MPEG4 broadcasts. This was through the fault of deliberately short written firmware. People have taken to hacking these TVs through the use of hotel files given that no solution was offered to these purchasers in Ireland by Panasonic.

Secondly there was NO RTE Trial. There was a DCMNR trial with BT which finished in July 2008. In August 2008 RTE started broadcasting DVB-T MPEG4 broadcasts and gradually started kitting and rolling out the main TX sites around the country. Initially these broadcasts did use the 0x01 descriptor. It changed in 2009 to 0x16 which is a flag for SD Advanced Codec of MPEG4. These were not defined in the 1st Panasonic Freesat HD Combo range of Pz81/LZD81. A few lines of code.

Then LG released a range of Freesat Combo TVs in April 2009 (LF7700). LG didnt employ shortcuts in the firmware and the TVs work fine with Saorview and have the full suite of DVB-T flags defined.

Then Panasonic released their 2nd range of Freesat Combo Tvs in mid 2009 - the G10b/15b range which again had shortcuts in the firmware for DVB-T reception in Ireland. People have taken to hacking them via the onboard hex editor as no other solution has been made available.

Then Sony released a Freesat Combo range (W5810) and like LG didnt employ Panasonic's narrow interpretation of what the TV should and shouldn't decode on the DVB-T side.

It is only NOW in the TV you bought (the G20b) that the consumer doesnt have to second guess what Panasonic have or havent employed as shortcuts. And the reason for that ? The full list of service descriptors MUST be defined for the terrestrial tuner for Freeview HD whih uses the MPEG4 processor and requires the full list !

Bonuses indeed! Bottom line. Panasonic were the only manufacturer of Combo TVs NOT to define the full list of services in their DVB-T/DVB-S Freesat range.

As a footnote to all of this given the uncertainty employed by manufacturers in how they ship and pre-program TVs with certain standards (or not) of countries published standards, RTENL had to introduce a certification process. This is where manufacturers submit their suitable products to Terracom for bench testing and can then be sold with Saorview certification badge, if they pass.

Walker where the first to get certification in 2010. Since then an additional 16 other manufacturing TV brands have received Saorview certification. Panasonic is not among them.

I didn't want to get involved in this argument at all, but I just thought I'd add this...
from the Minimum Receiver Requirements on the RTENL website.

1.2. Document History
Version Date Status Comments
0.1 09-11-2008 Draft Initial draft document based on Teracom ACD 2.0 document
0.1b 11-11-2008 Draft Comment 0.1 draft – Teracom comment; Per Tullstedt and Petri Hyvärinen
0.1c 17-12-2008 Draft Amendments to 0.1b draft - Marcus O’Doherty
1.0 19-12-2008 Edition 1 Final amendments to 0.1c draft – Marcus O’Doherty
2.0 24-10-2010 Edition 2 NorDig 2.2 update – Deasún Mac Giolla an Chloig

In my opinion Panasonic have nothing to answer for in regards TVs sold in Ireland prior to their Range under development from 2009, and probably released in 2010. That said I do believe in future proofing technology for the good of consumers. I also believe that legislation should have been passed soon after the publication of the first edition of the document that at a specified date all TV sold in Ireland should include these minimum requirements, and any TVs lacking this be bundles with a set-top-box.

I also think that if the release of a firmware update for certain TV sets is feasible the National Consumer Agency should take up this issue. I think the Authorities responsible have made a huge mess of the digital switchover and I don't think Panasonic are to take the blame for that.

Can anyone tell me can a firmware update add mpeg4 capabilities to a DVB-T Mpeg2 (freeview) TV?

As an owner of a FreeviewHD PVR and live in an overspill area i would always advise people to consider a FreeviewHD appliance over Saorview...
But my original post is really looking for DVB-T2 and S2 TV...

Sam Russell

joceadaigh wrote: »

In my opinion Panasonic have nothing to answer for in regards TVs sold in Ireland prior to their Range under development from 2009, and probably released in 2010. That said I do believe in future proofing technology for the good of consumers. I also believe that legislation should have been passed soon after the publication of the first edition of the document that at a specified date all TV sold in Ireland should include these minimum requirements, and any TVs lacking this be bundles with a set-top-box.

I also think that if the release of a firmware update for certain TV sets is feasible the National Consumer Agency should take up this issue. I think the Authorities responsible have made a huge mess of the digital switchover and I don't think Panasonic are to take the blame for that.

Can anyone tell me can a firmware update add mpeg4 capabilities to a DVB-T Mpeg2 (freeview) TV?

As an owner of a FreeviewHD PVR and live in an overspill area i would always advise people to consider a FreeviewHD appliance over Saorview...
But my original post is really looking for DVB-T2 and S2 TV...

Panasonic take the attitude that a TV sold in territory A should not be sold in territory B. To them, this is grey marketing and should be punished prevented. They have actively tried to prevent the upgrade of TVs (the G10B) for proper use, as the same TV can be fooled into working using a hack.

A simple software upgrade would solve all of these problems.

It should be a basis for a campaigne for an upgrade of the UK D-Book to align with the Nordig 2.2 standard with the Freeview HD standard so that full interoperability is achieved, as was promised by the Memorandum of Understanding signed by our then Minister. The DCNER should be the body to take up the cudgel.

There will be many UK viewers affected (in NI) and a small change is all that is needed. We know about LCN, Summertime, etc. Unfortunately, existing equipment is likely to be excluded. I will not hold my breath.

STB

joceadaigh wrote: »

1. Can anyone tell me can a firmware update add mpeg4 capabilities to a DVB-T Mpeg2 (freeview) TV?

2. As an owner of a FreeviewHD PVR and live in an overspill area i would always advise people to consider a FreeviewHD appliance over Saorview...
But my original post is really looking for DVB-T2 and S2 TV...

1. Yes and No. In the case of the combo TVs discussed above what dictates whether they can decode the Saorview channels on the DVB-T side is whether the processor onboard can process MPEG4 H264 video streams. In case of the original Panasonic 1st and 2nd generation DVB-T combo's the issue is that there was a MPEG4 chip onboard (for Feesat HD) but the full DVB service descriptors were not defined in the software. So yes that would be an easy firmware fix.

Early MPEG2 TVs with MPEG2 chipsets cannot be enabled to decode MPEG4 video with firmware.

However a lot of "Freeview TV" released since 2009 although having the Freeview tag actually have MPEG4 chipsets onboard and they have been loaded with hardware way above the Freeview required standard in decoding MPEG2. This is because in many cases the major manufacturers (LG/Sony/Samsung)started bundling MPEG4 chipsets as a basic standard within Europe. Accordingly they handle Saorview broadcasts and do not require firmware.

2. You are in an overspill area. Others in Ireland not in overspill areas will not require the DVB-T2 tuner. (I hadnt actually noticed the T2 tuner requirement, so my initial answer should be treated as such).

That being the case you will be best served by Freeview HD and Freesat HD combo products only.

There have only been 3 ranges T2 and S2 ranges with Freesat HD software released as such. The Panasonic G20b range, the Samsung D7000/8000 range and the Panasonic VT & GT30b range.

Sam Russell wrote: »

It should be a basis for a campaigne for an upgrade of the UK D-Book to align with the Nordig 2.2 standard with the Freeview HD standard so that full interoperability is achieved, as was promised by the Memorandum of Understanding signed by our then Minister. The DCNER should be the body to take up the cudgel.

There will be many UK viewers affected (in NI) and a small change is all that is needed. We know about LCN, Summertime, etc. Unfortunately, existing equipment is likely to be excluded. I will not hold my breath.

My understanding is that there is a working group of DCENR and UK DCMS which are looking at among other things, interoperability issues for NI.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

My understanding is that there is a working group of DCENR and UK DCMS which are looking at among other things, interoperability issues for NI.

Not much happening in this area according to Saorview: Brian - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76015283

joceadaigh

STB wrote: »

2. You are in an overspill area. Others in Ireland not in overspill areas will not require the DVB-T2 tuner. (I hadnt actually noticed the T2 tuner requirement, so my initial answer should be treated as such).

There is no guaranty that RTENL or anyone other future bradcaster/authority will not change to T2 some time in the future. I understand it is unlike in the near future, but it only took the UK 12 to change. I think it was a mistake on RTENL/DCENR not to adopt T2 from the beginning... but that's in the past. A commercial wing to saorview may find T2 preferable.

My understanding is that there is a working group of DCENR and UK DCMS which are looking at among other things, interoperability issues for NI.

Well with the state of the goingdigital.ie website, I don't think the department have any interest in digital tv. Looks like they'd be happy to leave the whole switchover to RTE/Saorview.

STB

joceadaigh wrote: »

There is no guaranty that RTENL or anyone other future bradcaster/authority will not change to T2 some time in the future. I understand it is unlike in the near future, but it only took the UK 12 to change. I think it was a mistake on RTENL/DCENR not to adopt T2 from the beginning... but that's in the past. A commercial wing to saorview may find T2 preferable.

At the time our standard was decided upon, DVB-t2 wasnt an available platform in any event.

Regardless, DVB-T2 is a solution to countries with the problem of not having enough bandwidth and frequencies for the number of stations they have. The UK has this problem and with the advent of HD via MPEG4 and the bandwidth required for HD and its number of SD stations using lossy MPEG2 encoding, T2 was the solution to the UK's problem for even more efficient use of the spectrum to serve their 66million population.

Having a small population we don't have that problem. The DVB-T platform and the efficient MPEG4 codec are fine for HD delivery without limitation. It is unlikely that such a similar commercial selection of channels will ever be terrestrially available in Ireland. The advertising market size and the size of our population dictates this.

Most countries within Western Europe are using the DVB-T platform.

STB

The Cush wrote: »

Not much happening in this area according to Saorview: Brian - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76015283

Cush, I am sure some sort of workaround solution will be found regarding receiver interoperability without converging standards. Perhaps a more direct question for Brian perhaps rather than the one Sam asked.

championc

STB wrote: »

Then Panasonic released their 2nd range of Freesat Combo Tvs in mid 2009 - the G10b/15b range which again had shortcuts in the firmware for DVB-T reception in Ireland.

I wasn't aware that "b" models were made for the Irish market.

I fully accept that Panny have been completely "shortsighted" in their approach in alienating the Irish market. I also fully agree that it would seem that a simple change to their firmware would also have allowed the devices with MPEG-4 chipsets to tune in to Irish Broadcasts by identifying the 0x16 flag. However, it would seem from Panny's viewpoint that they are afraid to risk any changes to a firmware that successfully runs how many thousand sets in the UK - a market for which the sets were designed to primarily operate in.

My understanding too is that all combo sets made by Panny are also sold on the basis that the DVB-S tuners are for Freesat and I believe Freesat is supposed to be restricted to the UK audience only

Sam Russell

Perhaps time will solve the DVB-T1 DVB-T2 problem as chipsets will be built for the later standard and only require firmware to enable the later versions. However, RTE NL, or DCNER could require (and publicise) the requirement for TVs that are sold in, say, 2014 or 2015 should be Nordig 2.3 (or whatever) and be DBV-T2, MPEG 4 Level 4, MHEG 5, etc., etc., so that this time the trade and the public are aware of the required standards.

Then, in 8 or 10 or 12 years time, we will have an installed base of TVs for when we start going DVB-T2 for all those extra channels we will need by then. I]Assuming we can afford extra channels - or even a new TV by then[/I.

daithi7

Hi Folks,

Serious quality posts thanks to you STB and others here who have enlightened those of us in the dark (literally) with our Panasonic MPeg4 TVs that will not pick up the Saorview TV transmission standards. I have 2 of the fuppin things. (Do not buy any panasonic tv until they sort this firmware issue)

Has anyone lobbied directly with Panasonic here?? I read a few posts regarding ringing customer support, etc but has anyone got the product managers contact details and followed up with them directly??

If not I am suggesting a targeted campaign to get Panasonic to issue a firmware upgrade to enable all Irish TVs with Mpeg4 tuners be able to tune in and receive Saorview. To do this we have to make it in their interest to do so. Here is how I suggest that is done:

-draft a well written email/letter outlining the issue, the firmware fix required, outline the customers discomoded and the negative PR created by the issue to date in Ireland, the UK and Europe
-get the contact details of every relevant person in Panasonic (& consumer bodies) who may influence such a decision
-publish the draft email on this board and the contact details and suggest to people to issue their specific email to the Panasonic contacts and others on the issue using the draft, etc

-IF we get no action from Panasonic, Escalation options could include
- a dedicated Webpage on the issue (so it comes up in google searches)
- a press release on the issue (emails to journos)
- other negative pr possibilities for panasonic arising from this

I am prepared to go to bat on this if people are up for it. What do people think? Any other suggestions? Net power can often win in these type of cases.

look forward to hearing all replies,
Daithi :cool:

p.s. I am no panasonic crank, I bought two of their TX-37LZD81 sscreens in good faith in '09 with a hardware spec to receive Irish digital Tv. To expect support (i.e. a firmware update for Saorview) is only asking for the devices to actually work!

p.p.s. STB you mentioned a draft letter in another thread, will you post this here for use by users in correspondence with Panasonic?

STB wrote: »

No. Totally untrue.

The threads started a LONG time before that. It started with the PZ81 range released for HD Freesat and DVB-T in 2008/9. I suggest you search before jumping to Panasonic's defence with complete nonsense.

History
Panasonic released their first HD combo TV range in mid 2008. Combo means a DVB-T and DVB-S tuners. These combos have an MPEG4 processor on board to decode the HD broadcasts from the Satellite tuner via Freesat (MPEG4 broadcasts) and a DVB-T tuner which to the spec meant they had the capability to decode MPEG4 broadcasts via DVB-T .

And they did initially when RTE first broadcast MPEG4 (from day 1) but with an MPEG2 data descriptor.

When RTE changed this dvb descriptor in early 2009 people soon discovered through this forum that the software on the Panasonic combo TVs were deliberately crippled to disallow the reception of anything not flagged 0x01 which is MPEG2 broadcasts even though the hardware can decode (and did) MPEG4 broadcasts. This was through the fault of deliberately short written firmware. People have taken to hacking these TVs through the use of hotel files given that no solution was offered to these purchasers in Ireland by Panasonic.

Secondly there was NO RTE Trial. There was a DCMNR trial with BT which finished in July 2008. In August 2008 RTE started broadcasting DVB-T MPEG4 broadcasts and gradually started kitting and rolling out the main TX sites around the country. Initially these broadcasts did use the 0x01 descriptor. It changed in 2009 to 0x16 which is a flag for SD Advanced Codec of MPEG4. These were not defined in the 1st Panasonic Freesat HD Combo range of Pz81/LZD81. A few lines of code.

Then LG released a range of Freesat Combo TVs in April 2009 (LF7700). LG didnt employ shortcuts in the firmware and the TVs work fine with Saorview and have the full suite of DVB-T flags defined.

Then Panasonic released their 2nd range of Freesat Combo Tvs in mid 2009 - the G10b/15b range which again had shortcuts in the firmware for DVB-T reception in Ireland. People have taken to hacking them via the onboard hex editor as no other solution has been made available.

Then Sony released a Freesat Combo range (W5810) and like LG didnt employ Panasonic's narrow interpretation of what the TV should and shouldn't decode on the DVB-T side.

It is only NOW in the TV you bought (the G20b) that the consumer doesnt have to second guess what Panasonic have or havent employed as shortcuts. And the reason for that ? The full list of service descriptors MUST be defined for the terrestrial tuner for Freeview HD whih uses the MPEG4 processor and requires the full list !

Bonuses indeed! Bottom line. Panasonic were the only manufacturer of Combo TVs NOT to define the full list of services in their DVB-T/DVB-S Freesat range.

As a footnote to all of this given the uncertainty employed by manufacturers in how they ship and pre-program TVs with certain standards (or not) of countries published standards, RTENL had to introduce a certification process. This is where manufacturers submit their suitable products to Terracom for bench testing and can then be sold with Saorview certification badge, if they pass.

Walker where the first to get certification in 2010. Since then an additional 16 other manufacturing TV brands have received Saorview certification. Panasonic is not among them.

bob11

Hi Daithi7,

I wish you luck , but this has been tried before with Panasonic a few years ago and it went nowhere ..

See attached one of the responses that I had received :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60638329&postcount=223

Cheers,

Bob

BionicRasher

I would also love to see something done so if I can add any weight to an effort to get Panasonic to do something then I will

Interested when I read that link you posted bob11 in that it says

Of course, Panasonic is fully committed to supporting our products marketed specifically for the Republic of Ireland to ensure continued functionality.

I have a TXL42D25L which is the Irish version yet I dont have full MHEG5 etc so I wonder can I stick that to them or if anyone has tried before

I did email them and got the typicall reply

In response, a re-set to shipping condition may solve this problem. To re-set the television:
• Press MENU on your remote control
• Select SETUP and press OK
• Select SHIPPING CONDITION and press OK
• Choose to confirm that you wish to carry out this procedure and press OK
If this does not solve the issue with your television, please do not hesitate to contact us and we will endeavour to assist.

I replied back saying this didnt help but never got an answer. Now its no big deal as all I am missing is the new teletext and also I dont have 7 day EPG on my Freesat tuner but if its an Irish model then going by what Panasonic say then they are willing to assist

championc

When I had a Panasonic TX-28DTX10 (bought in the UK and was a UK model), I spoke to them but the only things they were prepared to assist with were when there was an issue with a product, where the product was in the territory for which it was designed, or where the product didn't work for the function for which is was sold for.

In other words, if you have a "B" set, you need to say you are calling from NI or the UK but of course, there'll be no issue with receiving Freeview channels

And if you have an "L" set, is probably has a VHF and UHF tuner inside and will work forever more using these analog signals and it's not Panny's fault that analog is being discontinued.

So the only leg you have to stand on is with "L" sets, sold with DVB-T, as to what Panasonic's INTENDED FUNCTION of these DVB-T tuners was. Irrespective of Certification, if Panasonic sold them as Saorview Compatible, then you have a pair of very strong legs.


I have a suggestion

What about approaching an authorised Panasonic Service Centre. They are the only route to Panasonic Engineering rather than Customer Non-Service. The UK is more likely to believe a service engineer before any end user and an Engineer can assist the UK to understand the simplistic change that can be made to fix everything.

The other route is to lobby RTENL (or whoever) to ask them to maybe set the Codec Flag back from 0x16 back to 0x01 for maybe 1 hour one night between midnight and 1am (or something like this). It was a flick of a switch on 04 Nov 2010 (from memory) when they changed it over. Maybe someone on Boards here has a man on the inside.


C

daithi7

Thanks Bob, Tui & Champion,

That's great info. The idea of contacting the service centres is a good one too.

1. Can someone get the email addresses of the service centres or points of contact in them and post them here? (Champion would u do this?)

2. Can someone (else preferably) draft an email for Panasonic succinctly outlining the issue(s) and specifying the solution required from them? (Bob will you do this?)

3. I will get the email addresses of various other Panasonic people so that they can't complain that they weren't made aware.of the issue, and I will publish these here too.

Then as a 1st course of action I suggest:

-we can each send the drafted email to all the panasonic contacts we gather.

and then await a response, and if this is unsatisfactory or not forthcoming, we can then escalate ths campaign to a webpage outlining the issue with Panasonic TV s in Ireland that will come up in google....

I bet that gets them moving on it!!

championc

You're wasting your time talking about emailing until you potentially TALK to someone who a) Understands the problem and b) Has any interest in following it through in some way and c) Will actually talk with someone in Panny on your behalf to explain to Panny how potentially simple the problem could be to fix.

The big issue for Panny will be for touching firmware which is working perfectly for thousands of sets in the UK in the belief that they could end up bricking them.

So I suggest you PHONE a centre and try and talk with someone - try Plasmacare on 01-4605357 (found via the Panny website - http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Support/Service+information/Service+Centre+Locator+Ireland/584376/index.html

Let us know what they say.

daithi7

the 2 main areas to contact seem to be:

Service Centre in Dublin tel 01 4605357

and Simon Parkinson Head of Service in the UK on +44 134 4706900

I called Simon this afternoon and he got their tech support guys to call me back. According to them they do not intend to issue a firmware patch to cover panny sets to receive saorview. I will write to directly to Simon at the address below also to highlight the issue. Can I suggest as many people as possible call or write to Simon at the numbers below to highlight the issues.

He seems an approachable kind of chap and if there are enough requests they will surely respond. Otherwise we will have to escalate the level of awareness of the issue so that it appears through Google.

Panasonic Europe Ltd.
Willoughby Road , Bracknell , , RG12 8FP , United Kingdom
http://www.panasonic-europe.com
Phone: 44 134 4706900
Revenue (ttm): 105 Industry: Holding Companies
Employees: 300 SIC: Holding And Other Investment Offices (6700)
NAICS: Offices of Bank Holding Companies (551111)
Description:
Panasonic Europe Ltd. manufactures and markets electronic and electrical products under the brand name Panasonic. The company's products include television, microwave, mobile phones, compact-disc (CD) players, car radios, video recorders, and vacuum cleaners. It was founded in 1962 and is headquartered in Uxbridge, United Kingdom. Panasonic Europe Ltd. operates as a subsidiary of Panasonic Corporation.
Selling Trigger Events - VIEW DETAILS
PANASONIC CORPORATION: Panasonic Will Host Joint Press Conference and Eco Picture Diary Global Contest Ceremony with UNESCO

4 Traders - Panasonic introduces short throw projector range at ISE 2012

AV Interactive - Contacts - VIEW DETAILS
Other
Warren Bone, Area Sales Manager, Northwest, Panasonic Networks
Simon Parkinson, Head of Service
Gareth Rice, Head of Environmental Affairs
Dawn Amos, European Regional Human Resources Manager, Avionics
Richard Garnett, Head of Sales
Barnaby Sykes, Product Marketing Manager
Nick Ray, Development Manager
Mike Burton, Head of Security
Steve Foreman, Marketing Manager, Europe, Avionics
Richard Mills, Head of UK Human Resources & European Talent Management
Tony Stansfield, Technical Design Authority, Semiconductors
Stuart Axon, Head of Hearing Instruments, UK
Mark Harris, Assistant Chief Engineer, Mobile
Alison Nevett, Finance Manager
Jonathan Tucker, Strategic Industry Manager
Louise Hirst, Business Development Manager, AV
Director(s)
Andrew Denham, Marketing Director, UK
David Rice, Operations Director
Danny Kalman, Director of Human Resources, Europe
Bob Dick, Executive Director, Europe, Avionics
Stuart Anderson, Technical Director, Europe
Chief Executive Officer
Laurent Abadie, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
President(s)
Fumio Ohtsubo, President
GM/Managing Director(s)
Adrian Clark, General Manager, UK, AV Systems

info from http://www.insideview.com/directory/panasonic-europe-ltd

championc

The most important thing to do if you are contacting them is to point out that

a) the sets happily work with Saorview once the stations have been scanned - thus proving that sets are technically perfect

and

b) the only issue is the simple scanning of new channels. The scanning process looks for a Codec flag of 0x01 whereas the Irish Saorview channels use 0x16 now

The Proof : Any TV's that scanned channels while the Codec was running as 0x01 can still happily view those channels. If the TV re-scanned for new channels, all previously scanned channels would be lost and would no longer be re-scanable

STB

You might also add that Panasonic washing their hands of this on the basis that these products where not meant to be sold in ROI isnt as black and white as it may seem. Besides the fact that they were actually sold in Ireland (including by all accounts by the Panasonic shop in Ireland) they (both ranges) these products are also used quite extensively in border areas ie NI which is a Freesat area.

DVB descriptors are well defined within standards. If hardware is available for the processing of such services why was the DVB suite short written ??

Nobody else did it on their DVB-T Freesat Combo range ie LG nor Sony.

You might point out that people have taken to hacking their expensive sets to bypass deliberately short or badly written software. It is a huge pity as the PQ on Panasonic's is highly regarded.