Things will come to those who wait...

tang1

Best of luck P, hope you sort yourself out. Dont stay away to long.

Sacksian

I can sympathise, Pconn. I’ve been in a similar enough position the last four weeks with my hamstring and probably (hopefully) have another couple weeks to go before I can do anything close to 5k pace and another few before I can do anything faster. It’s really, really ****ing annoying.

If you think about middle-distance training, you’re doing a large volume of fast running on a hard surface, and with tight turns. You did 6k worth of intervals last night. The nature of the training (surface, pace and circuit) places a lot of stress on your muscles and joints: calf, knee, hips, achilles… And when you’re coming back from an injury, some of your muscles may have been working in unusual ways to compensate for a while and, as such, it’s not strange to pick up additional niggles when you’re getting back up to full training. Again, very ****ing annoying, but it happens and it's not necessarily avoidable.

At least while you’re getting back into things, maybe stay off the track and try not to run too fast too soon. As you said above, it’s a long season and a couple of weeks of slow miles now is better than stop/starting (think of it as an additional bonus base-building phase). Nothing wrong with learning to love slow running!! And even when you’re ready to ramp up the pace, you don’t actually NEED a track to do middle-distance training. And you don’t need to worry about running mile paces 400s right now.

I’ve been trying to think about what I need to do to be running my strongest in August, and that helps me realise that losing a couple of weeks, doing all this stretching and strengthening and sucking it up now is preferable to the utter frustration of months of fractured training for the entire summer.

paddybarry

pconn062 wrote: »

Monday: 68 mins

Long run cut short due to niggle (more on that later)

Tuesday: 10k in 44 mins

Windy.

Wednesday:

Session: (2k, 1 mile, 1200m, 800m, 400m) off 2 mins recovery

Splits: 7.21, 5.50, 4.20, 2.50, 73

Track session, felt reasonably good on this and kept it very controlled. Really only pushed it out on the 400m. Had to cut cool down short due to pain in my soleus/lower calf/achilles (don't know which it is). Started bothering me at the weekend but got pretty bad on Monday and had to cut long run short. Starts out OK on run and gets worse as it goes on. It's manageable but uncomfortable at times. Not sure what the issue is, I do all the right things: stretching, strength work, balance work, icing, alternate runners. I'm considering taking a longer term break from running as I'm sick to death with all these niggles and injuries and fed up worrying about them for the sake of a hobby, not enjoying my training at the moment because of them. Have physio on Friday so will he what he says and take it from there. Over and out for a while.

Have you had a functional screening done? Maybe worth checking out. Good luck Pconn.

Chivito550

Just a general point, and not targeted at you PConn, but I've noticed that middle distance runners at club level overlook the gym way too much.

An example would be a guy in my club in Melbourne who is a good 800 runner. He has run 1:58. But he never lifts a weight and I never saw him in the gym. His coach said to me he completely neglects it. Well he keeps tearing hamstrings.

All the middle distance posters here are good club athletes. All of you are, so you'd fit into that criteria. But how many of you lift weights to strengthen your body?

I hear the whole "I'll try make a bigger effort to do strength work" all the time. A shift in attitude to "this is part of my training, not just a supplementary part" would help. Logging it on training logs shows that you treat it with the importance and respect it deserves.

This is just a general comment based on habits I've noticed from middle distance runners.

pconn062

Thanks for all the comments guys, lots to think about. Got some dry needling done earlier and the leg is sore now, but hopefully it will help. No running today anyway, going to talk to my coach and physio tomorrow and see what to do. Maybe more strength work is the answer but I need to figure out which areas need work and where the imbalances are, don't want to make things worse.

dna_leri

Hi PConn,

Sorry to hear you are struggling getting back to fitness.
The advice from the guys could well be right - additional strength training, functional screening. If you do go down that path, be careful of who you take advice from as there is a lot of misinformation out there.

I just had a read back over your last few weeks, and this is what I saw:
15 March - knee ok
22 March - wore inov-8s, calves/achilles tender, feeling unfit.
25 March - 8x400m, "amount of fitness lost is staggering"
01 April - track session, pain in lower calf since the weekend, "considering taking break from running".

Obviously you have lost some fitness from your recent knee injury - more than you would like but could it be that you are expecting to get back to a certain level quicker than you should. Rather than take a break from running, maybe you need to take a break from running fast. Build up the miles again, on a variety of surfaces (but not the track). Get back to feeling fit before you try running fast. Build your base again, include strength work bodyweight exercises followed by weights, get strong. Introduce strides and tempos when you are ready. It might take 4 weeks or 8 weeks but don't force it.

Have a read and a listen to CoL to remind yourself what some people go through to get back to running the way they want, then decide what you want.
http://jumping-the-gun.com/?p=4959

Good luck.

pconn062

Thanks DL for the helpful words. Back from physio there and diagnosed with a small strain in soleus muscle, not achilles related thankfully. So at the moment no running at all, never mind fast running. Looking back maybe I jumped back onto the track too quickly, however it doesn't change the fact that I am still getting injured too often. I really shouldn't be picking up a calf strain off one track session and 30 miles a week. I already do quite a lot of strength/balance work but maybe not targeting the correct areas. Flat feet are causing excess pressure on the outside of the lower leg due to over stretching, putting too much pressure on other areas, which then causes a breakdown. Need to target that somehow if long term injury free training is going to be possible. Have a new set of exercises now which will hopefully help. Thanks again.

ultrapercy

pconn062 wrote: »

Thanks DL for the helpful words. Back from physio there and diagnosed with a small strain in soleus muscle, not achilles related thankfully. So at the moment no running at all, never mind fast running. Looking back maybe I jumped back onto the track too quickly, however it doesn't change the fact that I am still getting injured too often. I really shouldn't be picking up a calf strain off one track session and 30 miles a week. I already do quite a lot of strength/balance work but maybe not targeting the correct areas. Flat feet are causing excess pressure on the outside of the lower leg due to over stretching, putting too much pressure on other areas, which then causes a breakdown. Need to target that somehow if long term injury free training is going to be possible. Have a new set of exercises now which will hopefully help. Thanks again.

I never get injured and rarely get a niggle. I do notice that the niggles or warnings I do get are after hard track sessions.Even after very long runs of 35 miles I wouldn't get shin pain but I get it from the track. I thought it might be the surface but it happens on cinder/sand tracks too tho not as bad. I don't know if it's common practice to alternate the direction ran during a track session but maybe it would take some pressure of certain mussels and balance out the work load a bit.

pconn062

ultrapercy wrote: »

I never get injured and rarely get a niggle. I do notice that the niggles or warnings I do get are after hard track sessions.Even after very long runs of 35 miles I wouldn't get shin pain but I get it from the track. I thought it might be the surface but it happens on cinder/sand tracks too tho not as bad. I don't know if it's common practice to alternate the direction ran during a track session but maybe it would take some pressure of certain mussels and balance out the work load a bit.

The track could be a factor alright, but I only use it once a week. As a middle distance runner it is hard to avoid the track totally. Must monitor it though in future.

pconn062

Might as well post an update. Met with my coach last weekend who gave me a bit of a pep talk and discussed the calf issue. He is also a physio and said it didn't look too serious so take a few days off and reassess. So things have gone like this since then.

Good Friday-Monday: Off

Tuesday: 25 mins easy

Spent the day walking around Howth Head on a glorious day. It's a beautiful place and I would recommend the full walk to anyone. Headed out that evening for a short jog, got 25 mins done and the calf felt great so was very happy.

Wednesday: 40 mins easy

Went into training and jogged around the grass on the outside of the track while the lads trained, again felt really good and calf felt perfect. When I got home I felt a twinge on the outside of my right leg just above the ankle but didn't think much of it.

Thursday

Woke up Thursday and right leg was very sore in the same spot, above the ankle in the peroneal muscle spot. I help train a group of beginners on a Thursday evening so jogged around with them but the leg was very sore by the end.

Friday-Today: Off

Went to the gym on Friday morning and did a new session my coach put together for me. He also had a quick look at my leg on Friday evening and thinks it is a peroneal muscle/tendon strain. He was amazed at how I could have strained it with two easy short runs. He said to give it 4-5 days off and then see but I don't think that will be enough. It is still quite sore now when I am sitting or walking and running doesn't seem like an option anytime soon. I really can't think how it could have got hurt, The only thing that I can think of is the walk in Howth head as it is quite hilly and stony in places but I didn't hurt it on the walk and the two jogs after that were fine.

It's a mystery, this log is a bit of a disaster at the minute and must be depressing to read (it's sure depressing to type!) . Anyway, will see how it feels over the next few days, will hit then gym tomorrow and keep up my own strength work at home. Need to buy a second icepack as I can't keep one cool enough!

pconn062

Monday: 20 mins + Gym

Headed into the gym in the morning and warmed up with 20 mins easy on the treadmill with no real issues from the leg. Then did the following:

Hamstring curl: 3x8 reps @ 25, 30 and 35kg
Quad extension: 3x8 reps @ 30, 35 and 40kg
Abductor press: 3x8 reps @ 15 and 20kg
Romanian Deadlift: 3x8 reps at 25kg
Squats: 3x8 at 20kg
Single leg squats w/weight: 2x10 per leg
Eccentric hamstring w/8kg weight: 10 per leg

Tuesday: Off

Wednesday: 42 mins easy on track

Leg felt OK on this, still a little niggly but no pain. Pace was very slow (8 min miles)

Thursday: Gym

Tried to warm up on treadmill but had to stop after 3 mins. Seems I'm not ready for two days in a row yet. Gym was similar to Monday w/leg press instead of abductor exercise and increased the weights a little on a few things.

Hamstring curl: 3x8 reps @ 30, 35 and 40kg
Quad extension: 3x8 reps @ 30, 35 and 40kg
Legpress: 3x8 reps @ 70, 80 and 90kg
Romanian Deadlift: 4x8 reps at 25kg
Squats: 3x8 at 20kg
Single leg squats w/weight: 2x10 per leg
Eccentric hamstring w/8kg weight: 10 per leg

Need to increase the weights with the squats and deadlifts but just want to make sure I have the technique correct first. Still not happy with the leg, is quite sore now after yesterdays run even though it was fine during. Going to see the man with the magic hands ecoli on Saturday so will see what he has to say about it.

Chivito550

Good stuff with the gym. It will benefit you in the long term. Maybe warm up on bike rather than thread mill?

pconn062

Chivito550 wrote: »

Good stuff with the gym. It will benefit you in the long term. Maybe warm up on bike rather than thread mill?

Yeah, that's what I did today, just jumped on the bike for 10 minutes. Although it's hard enough jogging on a treadmill, the bike is really testing my patience!

Dubgal72

Hi pconn, was Wednesday's run done on a running track? If so, I was wondering about the possibility of stressing your inside leg, as you go round and round...and round....or would that not factor in at a *slow* pace?

pconn062

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Hi pconn, was Wednesday's run done on a running track? If so, I was wondering about the possibility of stressing your inside leg, as you go round and round...and round....or would that not factor in at a *slow* pace?

Hi Dubgal, it's a fair question. The issue is that the injury is in the peroneal tendon/muscle area which acts primarily as a stabilising muscle, stabilising the ankle as it lands. So any running on uneven surfaces like grass on even road with a camber is causing issues. That's why I thought the track would be best to take the pressure off as it's completely flat. We ran on the very outside of the track in lane 8 as opposed to lane 1 and changed direction ever mile to counteract the turning of the bends. Luckily it felt OK during the run, just the day after it was complaining. Hope you got your shoe dilemma sorted!

Dubgal72

pconn062 wrote: »

Hi Dubgal, it's a fair question. The issue is that the injury is in the peroneal tendon/muscle area which acts primarily as a stabilising muscle, stabilising the ankle as it lands. So any running on uneven surfaces like grass on even road with a camber is causing issues. That's why I thought the track would be best to take the pressure off as it's completely flat. We ran on the very outside of the track in lane 8 as opposed to lane 1 and changed direction ever mile to counteract the turning of the bends. Luckily it felt OK during the run, just the day after it was complaining. Hope you got your shoe dilemma sorted!

Should have known you would do track circles the sensible way
Haven't sorted it yet, but I think I'll get there. So many things to keep in mind when getting new runners, whoulda thunk it?!

pconn062

Friday: 42 mins easy

Wasn't sure how this was gonna go, the leg didn't feel good at all on Thursday. However as luck would have it, it felt good all day Friday and by the time I went out on Friday all was well and the run went fine. Did this on the road and I'm luckily that the roads around me are mostly quiet so I could run in the middle of the road and avoid the camber.

Saturday: Off

Went up to ecoli to get a rub (and a 2nd opinion on a few things). He noticed some bruising around the ankle that was giving me trouble. My OH also reminded me that I rolled over on my ankle when walking around Howth Head last week, which I honestly can remember doing. So maybe that contributed to some of the issues. Ecoli also noticed a lot of issues with hips, they were practically locked in place they were so tight! So after some pretty painful work they felt a lot looser. Got a few stretches off him as well to try and keep them loose, really recommend him to anyone!

Sunday: 6 miles in 46:20, 7.43 pace, HR avg 160

Ecoli recommended taking two days off, but the hips felt pretty good this morning and couldn't resist the weather so headed out for an easy jog. Got a new gadget as well that I wanted to try out. Seen someone on the Gear forum selling one of those Polar RC3 w/a heart rate monitor that they picked up in Halfords for €80, so I jumped on it! My coach was keen for me to monitor pace and HR on easy runs and I had a lot of problems with the last two Garmins I had so decided to try out a Polar. I think I have been running my easy runs too fast but without a GPS watch it is hard to be sure, so will use this for a while. Legs felt good on this, although the HR was a bit high, showing how much fitness has been lost. Hopefully though this is the start of the road back to fitness. Will be sensible and build up slowly this week and aim to try back to back days maybe once.

(Very happy with the polar by the way, seems like an awesome bit of kit, especially for €80!).

pconn062

Monday: 4 mile @ 7.42 pace, Avg HR 160 + Gym

Did a half hour jog before hitting the gym, the leg felt fine but I did a few laps on the grass and felt a few twinges so it's obvious still not 100%. I made some adjustments to my gym work based on a few things ecoli said, namely taking out the squats.

Hamstring curl: 3x8 reps @ 35, 40 and 45kg
Quad extension: 3x8 reps @ 35, 40 and 45kg
Romanian Deadlift: 3x8 reps at 30kg
Calf raises: 15/no weight, 15/10kg, 15/20kg
Medicine ball rotations: 3x20
Eccentric hamstring w/10kg weight: 10 per leg

Gym felt good, got some advice on technique on the deadlifts from one of the trainers, was standing too far away from the bar and in danger of hurting my back.

Tuesday: Off

Wednesday: 10k in 48:23, 7.42 pace, Avg HR 152

Into the track tonight for another easy run. Felt really good on this, HR was lower that in previous runs of the same pace but some of that was down to the flat surface as opposed to hilly roads. Ticking over, hope to be able to keep it up and get a few more runs in this week. If all goes well, I'll throw in a steady run next week.

pconn062

Thursday: 7.5 miles easy

No data for this one, was coaching a group so did 30 mins easy then went through a session with them, followed by some more easy jogging. They are only beginners so nothing strenuous.

Friday: Gym

10 min W/U on bike

Hamstring curl: 3x8 reps @ 40, 45 and 50kg
Quad extension: 3x8 reps @ 35, 40 and 45kg
Romanian Deadlift: 3x8 reps at 30kg
Calf raises: 3x15 w/20kg weight
Medicine ball rotations: 3x20
Squats: 3x8 w/15kg
Single leg squats: 10 per leg w/10kg
Eccentric hamstring w/10kg weight: 10 per leg

Box ticking.

pconn062

Saturday: 6.5 miles @ 7.40 pace, HR avg 155

Easy run on the roads, felt good but some considerable discomfort in the side of my left calf quite high up.

Sunday: 8 miles @ 7.30 pace, HR avg 164

Headed out to Oldbridge to run on grass and get off the roads. Overall pace was skewed by a fast(er) last mile (well a 6.40 mile :rolleyes:). HR higher that the last few runs but that was down to the hills and grass. Felt good on this again, calf a bit better but still uncomfortable on the downhills.

My fancy watch tells me I ran 32 miles this week, which I'm happy enough with. Time to string a few of those together now, will try to get 5/6 days in next week but will see how the body reacts. Gym tomorrow anyway to start the week.

pconn062

Monday: Gym

10 min W/U on bike

Hamstring curl: 3x8 reps @ 40, 45 and 50kg
Quad extension: 3x8 reps @ 35, 40 and 45kg
Romanian Deadlift: 3x8 reps at 30kg, 30 and 35kg
Calf raises: 3x15 w/20kg weight
Single leg heel drops: 2x10 per leg w/6kg weight
Medicine ball rotations: 3x20
Squats: 3x8 w/15kg
Abductor press: 3x8 @ 20, 25, 30kg
Single leg squats: 10 per leg w/10kg
Eccentric hamstring w/10kg weight: 10 per leg

Slightly longer gym session today as I had time. Still not happy with my technique on the deadlifts, too much pressure on my lower back and I'm still feeling the effects since. Going to drop them until I get an instructor to show me them properly.

Tuesday: 6.3 miles @ 7.49 pace, HR avg 156

Tough run this, was very windy and was probably slightly overdressed. HR was shooting up on the hills.

Wednesday: 6.5 miles w/20 mins steady @ 6.51 pace, HR avg for steady section, 173! :eek:

Into the track tonight and wanted to tip my toes back into "faster" work, decided a steady run was the easiest way to start. Did 20 mins warm up then jumped into it with my bro and a friend. Felt good for 10 mins but then I started working in the 2nd half, and the effort was more like tempo effort by the end. Pretty shocking amount of fitness lost, I ran 36 mins for 10k a few months ago and now 20 mins at 42 minute 10k pace is killing me! :rolleyes: Still, it's a start and onwards from here. Conditions were poor too, very windy and cold so that probably didn't help either. Easy recovery tomorrow and then gym on Friday.

Chivito550

Goodmornings are a good alternative to the RDL if you are finding it difficult.

Wouldn't get too downbeat about that run. Can't compare training runs to a race. Adrenaline makes a big difference. Your fitness will come back fairly quickly.

pconn062

Chivito550 wrote: »

Goodmornings are a good alternative to the RDL if you are finding it difficult.

Wouldn't get too downbeat about that run. Can't compare training runs to a race. Adrenaline makes a big difference. Your fitness will come back fairly quickly.

Ah yeah, not getting hung up on the run at all, it's a start. Will check those goodmornings out, I'm afraid I'll hurt myself if I keep at the deadlifts without some one to guide me regarding technique.

pconn062

Thursday: 7.5 miles various paces

No data for this one, training a beginner group so did 4.5 miles v. easy beforehand and went through the session with them. Easy running all round though and the legs felt good.

Friday: 6.4 miles @ 7.48 pace, HR avg 154

Bit later getting out for this one and I decided to try out a hilly route I did once before. Going well for a mile or two but bonked seriously after 3 miles and had to stop for a minute going up a hill! :eek: Realised then I hadn't eaten in 5 hours and the sugar just ran out, a few seconds later I was OK and made it home with no further problems. Shows how important getting the nutrition right is though.

Saturday: 4 miles easy + Gym

Hamstring curl: 3x8 reps @ 40, 45 and 50kg
Quad extension: 3x8 reps @ 35, 40 and 45kg
Calf raises: 3x15 w/20kg weight
Single leg heel drops: 2x10 per leg w/6kg weight
Medicine ball rotations: 3x20
Squats: 3x8 w/15kg
Abductor press: 3x8 @ 25kg
Single leg squats: 10 per leg w/10kg
Eccentric hamstring w/10kg weight: 10 per leg

4 very easy miles before heading to the gym, did the same session as last week but took out the deadlifts. Going to try and slightly increase the weights next week, not by much by I think it needs to progress now after three weeks.

Solid week so far and a long run tomorrow should get me over the 40 miles for the week. Body is feeling OK and the legs are holding up well.

pconn062

Sunday: 10.1 miles @ 7.43 pace, HR avg 160

Long run this morning, chose a pretty hilly route that I've done once before. Started nice and easy as it was mostly downhill but after 4 miles the hills started and was up and down the whole way to the end. Tough going and I probably should have chose a slightly easier rate for now, but enjoyed it nonetheless.

Mr. fancy watch tells me that was 41 miles for the week which I'm more than happy with. Had a little niggle in my IT band during this run today which I think was caused by the squats yesterday but some foam rolling afterwards seems to have sorted it out. Apart from that the legs are feeling good and I'm happy with how things are progressing. This week I'm aiming for 45+ miles (roughly) with another steady run and will also reintroduce some strides to try and get some speed back into the legs.

pconn062

Monday: Off

Tuesday: 7.2 miles @ 8.13 pace, HR avg. 155

Horrible conditions for this, done in the morning in this worst of the rain. Pace a bit slower but this was mostly due to running half of this on very wet, sloppy grass. Legs felt good.

Wednesday: 7.1 miles total w/20 mins steady + 4x100m strides

20 mins steady: 6.47 pace, HR avg 173

A repeat of last weeks steady session, effort and HR much the same as last week but a few seconds quicker per mile overall so some small improvement. Legs felt good and did a few strides as well to get some leg turnover in, kept them nice and relaxed but was tipping along nicely. Happy with that, progress is being made.

Oh, I'm on Strava now (years behind everyone else!) so give me a shout (Patrick Connolly).

NetwerkErrer

How's the body P? This place could do with a bit of life, it's starting to collect dust:)

pconn062

NetwerkErrer wrote: »

How's the body P? This place could do with a bit of life, it's starting to collect dust:)

Ha, I preferred it when it was gathering dust NE! Body is holding up well and training is going well, getting solid miles in for the last 2 weeks. I did a lactate threshold test last week so all of my training will be based on HR for the next while, I've also made a change to my coaching setup but won't go into details here (but if anyone is curious drop me a PM!). The focus has changed as fitness levels were poor starting back so I won't run any track this year and I'm focusing more long term to get ready for x-country, with a longer term view of track season next year. Will be sticking to strava to log my training for now but will pop in here occasionally for the odd update.

Glad to see you back, I've kept an eye on your log and hope you can steady the ship and put together a good plan with your coach.

pconn062

Going to restart this log for another little while, to document things up to the end of the cross country season. Training has been going well for the last few months, with a few ups and downs along the way. Have run two races, a 4 mile in 23:36 in July and more recently a 5k in 17:46. While the time is not the best and a long way from my PB, I was very happy with the race, felt strong and finished very well. I am planning to run another race next week in Monaghan, another 5k and am hoping for another good run. It has been a slow road back to fitness, but I feel like I am finally getting back into some form.

This week's training so far looks like this:

Monday: Off
Tuesday: 50 mins easy
Wednesday: Track session, 6 mins LT, 4x1k, 4x100m fast
Thursday: Two recovery runs, AM and PM

The plan is to run a full cross country season, so that will be the aim for the next few months. Let's see how this goes.

tang1

Good to see you back.