Why do athiests commit suicide at such a high rate compared to religous people

the_syco

Considering catholic Ireland has a long tradition of calling single person driving at 200km/h long a straight road suddenly gord right and hits a tree at full speed "not suicide", I'd wonder how true the stats are?

If you're a christain, it's an accident, but if you're an atheist it's suicide?

robindch

philologos wrote: »

Not sure if this link refers to the same study that was linked to. It seems to be statistically true that there is a higher rate of suicide amongst non-believers than believers globally.

Have a read of that study again.

It refers to a single, very small, study of "Depressed inpatients (N=371) who reported belonging to one specific religion or described themselves as having no religious affiliation were compared in terms of their demographic and clinical characteristics." and not believers and non-believers "globally" as you seem to think.

philologos

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Logical Fallacy

passarellaie wrote: »

If you guys are so happy in yourselves why is this an established fact

Sorry....I never got the memo about being an Atheist meaning you're automatically happy.

With all due respect, this could have been a very interesting debate...but you completely ****ed up with your aggressive OP.

It's also very difficult to "establish" fact around suicide. Reporting is normally pretty ****.

5uspect

Travellers have by far one of the highest rates of suicide in Ireland (PDF). They're also very, very religious. I wonder what conclusions the OP would draw from that?

RichieC

Sonics2k wrote: »

RichieC wrote: »

they are the worst forums on boards full to the brim with horse****.

You've been avoiding After Hours then :pac:

at least aa can be funny. Christian forum reminds me of being stuck in mass with me nana as a child. Bla bla our LORD bla bla bla his grace and bla wow that childs bum is lov.....

juan.kerr

passarellaie wrote: »

If you guys are so happy in yourselves why is this an established fact

Maybe because they don't have the fear of God beaten into them that it is a mortal sin and a one way ticket to hell?

passarellaie

RichieC wrote: »

at least aa can be funny. Christian forum reminds me of being stuck in mass with me nana as a child. Bla bla our LORD bla bla bla his grace and bla wow that childs bum is lov.....

If I said something like that I would be accused of being all sorts of things.You cabt have it every way Ritchie

Galvasean

passarellaie wrote: »

You cabt have it every way Ritchie

You can when you're an atheist. Even up the bum if you like! :pac:

RichieC

passarellaie wrote: »

RichieC wrote: »

at least aa can be funny. Christian forum reminds me of being stuck in mass with me nana as a child. Bla bla our LORD bla bla bla his grace and bla wow that childs bum is lov.....

If I said something like that I would be accused of being all sorts of things.You cabt have it every way Ritchie

Im accused of many things on my travels. A humourless bitter oul ****e not being one of them.

Dades

Bloody hell.

Doing some catchup in here and it's low grade stuff. :pac:

guitarzero

Who said atheists were all happy in themselves?

I'm not happy in myself.

/thread.

opinion guy

ShooterSF wrote: »

Psst, nearly 2012. He hasn't been there for quite some time :P

Obama has been known to come up with the odd bit of God stuff. But God help us all if a republican gets in next time.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Having read some of the posts in the Christianity, Islamic and Paganism forums I can understand why some people may want to kill themselves.

philologos wrote: »

???

The people inhabiting all three forums are equally mental, irrational and illogical. Honestly, its just like people from each of the forums troll the other two all day long.

RichieC wrote: »

they are the worst forums on boards full to the brim with horse****.

Sonics2k wrote: »

You've been avoiding After Hours then :pac:

After Hours is 1000 times more intelligent, well spoken and entertaining than any of the three!

philologos

opinion guy wrote: »

The people inhabiting all three forums are equally mental, irrational and illogical. Honestly, its just like people from each of the forums troll the other two all day long.

At least we're clear about what you think about me

opinion guy

philologos wrote: »

At least we're clear about what you think about me

Ah Phil you are just completely incapable of being objective about what you believe. You're emotional investment in a belief system you have convinced yourself of is clear, however you refuse to see it that way and instead insist it is so logically obvious how can the rest of us not see.

philologos

Simply put, Christianity made a lot of sense to me. I thought about it in depth, and now I believe. Atheism and agnosticism make little sense to me, and I suspect they never will. I find that there is more behind atheism than mere intellectual arguments. Indeed, I'd say there's more behind Christianity too.

People can pretend all they like that atheism is based on logic and reason, but I simply can't believe it to be based on either.

Ellis Dee

passarellaie wrote: »

If you guys are so happy in yourselves why is this an established fact

What a load of poppycock! Name one country in which suicide statistics are broken down by religion (or lack thereof).:rolleyes:

And what do you accept as an established fact? Religious people, by definition, seem to accept the existence of the sky fairy as an established fact, which it certainly isn't, and that poses a big question about their ability to distinguish between fact and fantasy.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

fatmammycat

philologos wrote: »

Simply put, Christianity made a lot of sense to me. I thought about it in depth, and now I believe. Atheism and agnosticism make little sense to me, and I suspect they never will. I find that there is more behind atheism than mere intellectual arguments. Indeed, I'd say there's more behind Christianity too.

People can pretend all they like that atheism is based on logic and reason, but I simply can't believe it to be based on either.

There's no pretense involved. You hanging your coat on the god coatstand is nothing more than a gesture of faith, and faith basically boils down to wishful thinking. You so want there to be a god that you're willing to overlook any manner of nonsense to bolster your faith. I don't see that as logical nor admirable in any form. There is no evidence of a god, no godly voice in the ether, no deity controlling the puppet strings of man, to pretend otherwise is folly.

opinion guy

philologos wrote: »

Simply put, Christianity made a lot of sense to me. I thought about it in depth, and now I believe. Atheism and agnosticism make little sense to me, and I suspect they never will. I find that there is more behind atheism than mere intellectual arguments. Indeed, I'd say there's more behind Christianity too.

People can pretend all they like that atheism is based on logic and reason, but I simply can't believe it to be based on either.

Did I say you should be an atheist ? You'll note I grouped the aethism forum in with the two believing forums as trollish in my earlier tirade

Certainty about anything is an act of faith if you ask me. Apart from death and taxes that is.

Whats actually much more useful is the realization that all interpretations are products of our minds, minds designed to seek meaning in thing, regardless of whether there is meaning or not. Understanding the emotional drive within that compels you to assign a belief structure on the world - thats alot more powerful than assigning your colours to Christianity or aethism or whatever

Geekness1234

passarellaie wrote: »

If you guys are so happy in yourselves why is this an established fact

Here's an established fact;

God's about as real as Santa Claus.
Most people stop believing in Santa when they're 10/11.:pac::pac:

philologos

fatmammycat wrote: »

There's no pretense involved. You hanging your coat on the god coatstand is nothing more than a gesture of faith, and faith basically boils down to wishful thinking. You so want there to be a god that you're willing to overlook any manner of nonsense to bolster your faith. I don't see that as logical nor admirable in any form. There is no evidence of a god, no godly voice in the ether, no deity controlling the puppet strings of man, to pretend otherwise is folly.

Actually, I regard it as fundamentally unwise to believe in anything without a reason to do so. Simply put, I believe in Christianity because I find that there are plenty of reasons to do so. I find it reasonable given the way things are around us.

Faith is the assurance that something is one way rather than the other. Human beings put faith into varying things, some on more tenuous reasons and some on stronger ones. In fact we put faith into varying spheres of our lives where we trust other people in particular. I believe that the sun is going to come up tomorrow morning, because I have perceived that this was so on numerous of occasions. Likewise, I believe that the train that I take every morning will bring me to the same destination every morning, and I have faith that the train driver is competent. Any one of these things could change, but based on the precedent I believe that they will remain so.

Much is the same in respect to my faith in God. I've seen God at work in my life and in other peoples lives. On the basis of this I can conclude that He will do this again, as He has done before. I read the Scriptures, and I find that they reveal a deeper truth about reality, they reveal historical truth about the world that was around them, and there is archaeological substance to back them up right across Israel and Jordan. Likewise I believe in Jesus because there is significant evidence that He existed. I believe that numerous aspects of the way things are make considerably better sense in light of God's existence than they do in the absence of God's existence. I find that the way that humans act on an ethical level is centred around universalism rather than subjectivism. These things all imply to me that Christianity is true, rather than Christianity is false.

If I had significant cause to doubt Christianity, I suspect I would doubt it. Since I don't, I don't see sound reason to. As far as I see it, there's plenty of evidence for God, and there are numerous approaches that one could take to look at this more closely.

People can bang on about God being comparable to the FSM, or Santa, unicorns etc. The reality is that there is a significantly better case for Christianity than any of these, and also that Christianity was written in a historical style rather than the common style of fiction that is associated with Greek epics such as Homer's Odyssey.

As far as I'm concerned, unless the new-atheists drop the idle rhetoric there's no discussion to be had.

5uspect

Here we go again... :rolleyes:

Let me guess, you're now unwilling to elaborate further and will now disappear until you repeat this in some other thread in a few weeks?

Solair

Could someone please either provide a citation for some research that shows this to be the case, or else stop making up total bull about atheists.

Also, atheists are not a homogenous group, anymore than people who don't collect stamps are.

As for the fact that atheists do not believe in an afterlife, surely that would make us *less* likely to commit suicide as the only thing we are definitely sure of is that we have this life, it's short and you have to make the most of it while you are here.

A lot of religious folk have the comfort of believing that if they die they will go to some happier place. For an atheist, if you die, most of us would assume that you cease to exist.
So, if anything, atheists should have a health fear of death and are highly unlikely to be suicide bombers or spend all their time worrying about what they're going to be doing in the afterlife.

I would be far more concerned about why suicide levels in Ireland are so high in general. It seems to me that we've developed a culture that is preventing people, particularly young men, from discussing their emotions due to an old Victorian stiff-upper-lip mentality that still persists and also because of ridiculous stigma about mental illness.

Suicide rates are also quite heavily linked to things like SAD, Seasonal affective disorder which makes people depressed / feel miserable due to lack of daylight in this climate.

On top of that we've got insanely draconian bankrupcy laws and a lot of people in a LOT of debt and a culture where people were valuing themselves based on their income or job.

To make matters even worse, bad planning, insane house prices and greed pushed a lot of people way out into really isolated housing and cut them off from their families and communities.

So, there's a hell of a lot wrong with Irish society at the moment, most of which has to do with failed Government / abysmal planning and not religion at all.

The sad reality of the situation is the mess that was created by failing to plan properly and by just being so damn greedy and to hell with the social consequences has severely damaged society and has actually cost lives.

We really forgot that we are supposed to be a community, a country and not 'an economy'.

All in all, I would be far more concerned about putting general, open, social support services in place (not religious institutions) that everyone can access.

opinion guy

philologos wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, unless the new-atheists drop the idle rhetoric there's no discussion to be had.

Then why do you spend so much time discussing it?
Doubt perhaps ?

partyatmygaff

I knew I said I don't want to get involved with this thread but I do find it an interesting topic and am disappointed by how people have more or less ignored the study I posted in lieu of posting about the OP and other irrelevancies. I still don't want to get too involved with this thread but nevertheless there's one post in this thread I want to reply to...

5uspect wrote: »

Travellers have by far one of the highest rates of suicide in Ireland (PDF). They're also very, very religious. I wonder what conclusions the OP would draw from that?

Perhaps that their genetic, cultural and lifestyle differences from the genereal population increases their risk of suicide and not necessarily their religious affiliation?

It's definitely not their religious affiliation that differentiates them from the rest of the population after all. There are far more religious "Non-Travellers" in Ireland than religious travellers. Considering they more than likely do not show similar rates of suicide attempts, it's reasonable to suggest that it's their ethnic background and not their religiosity that's increasing their risk.

fatmammycat

"Faith is the assurance that something is one way rather than the other. Human beings put faith into varying things, some on more tenuous reasons and some on stronger ones. In fact we put faith into varying spheres of our lives where we trust other people in particular. I believe that the sun is going to come up tomorrow morning, because I have perceived that this was so on numerous of occasions. Likewise, I believe that the train that I take every morning will bring me to the same destination every morning, and I have faith that the train driver is competent. Any one of these things could change, but based on the precedent I believe that they will remain so."


Nonsense, faith is the belief in something you have no evidence for. You keep saying you have evidence for an interventionist god doing specific things, so I'm curious, what are these manifest actions?

philologos

5uspect wrote: »

Here we go again... :rolleyes:

Let me guess, you're now unwilling to elaborate further and will now disappear until you repeat this in some other thread in a few weeks?

And I presume you're going to be posting constantly so that accusation can't be levelled at you? - There's a certain level where I have to call something tripe.

Also, I've gone through each of those points countless times over on boards.ie.

I've explained my faith before, and I will do so again and in my own leisure. I post on boards.ie recreationally, not as an occupation.

fatmammycat wrote: »

"Faith is the assurance that something is one way rather than the other. Human beings put faith into varying things, some on more tenuous reasons and some on stronger ones. In fact we put faith into varying spheres of our lives where we trust other people in particular. I believe that the sun is going to come up tomorrow morning, because I have perceived that this was so on numerous of occasions. Likewise, I believe that the train that I take every morning will bring me to the same destination every morning, and I have faith that the train driver is competent. Any one of these things could change, but based on the precedent I believe that they will remain so."


Nonsense, faith is the belief in something you have no evidence for. You keep saying you have evidence for an interventionist god doing specific things, so I'm curious, what are these manifest actions?

You're redefining what faith is to suit your argument. Claims from my experience are more than likely going to be fobbed off. Claims from others experience are going to be fobbed off. Even arguments which are independent from experience are simply going to be fobbed off. It tends to be that any post from a Christian perspective is just ignored immediately with a generic FSM / Santa Claus comparison or some other form of ridicule, so I wonder what's the point in doing this if we're not going to be willing to listen to what the other has to say.

opinion guy wrote: »

Then why do you spend so much time discussing it?
Doubt perhaps ?

Most normal people have doubts. Posting here actually helps me research my faith in ways that I mightn't have done otherwise. The A&A forum has strengthened by Christian faith in many ways.

fatmammycat

I asked you out straight, P, what are these manifest actions of the interventionist deity which you claim gives credence to your belief in said deity? It's a pretty simple question that I would like to hear an answer to. After all, extraordinary claims require evidence.

5uspect

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I knew I said I don't want to get involved with this thread but I do find it an interesting topic and am disappointed by how people have more or less ignored the study I posted in lieu of posting about the OP and other irrelevancies. I still don't want to get too involved with this thread but nevertheless there's one post in this thread I want to reply to...

5uspect wrote: »

Travellers have by far one of the highest rates of suicide in Ireland (PDF). They're also very, very religious. I wonder what conclusions the OP would draw from that?

Perhaps that their genetic, cultural and lifestyle differences from the genereal population increases their risk of suicide and not necessarily their religious affiliation?

It's definitely not their religious affiliation that differentiates them from the rest of the population after all. There are far more religious "Non-Travellers" in Ireland than religious travellers. Considering they more than likely do not show similar rates of suicide attempts, it's reasonable to suggest that it's their ethnic background and not their religiosity that's increasing their risk.

That's exactly the point. There are lots of risk factors and it's a complex problem. I'm simply just pointing out how ridiculous the OP is. The religious types will use anything to promote their god and ignore the complexity of a problem.

philologos wrote: »

And I presume you're going to be posting constantly so that accusation can't be levelled at you? - There's a certain level where I have to call something tripe.

I've explained my faith before, and I will do so again and in my own leisure. I post on boards.ie recreationally, not as an occupation.

So you're trolling then?

You keep saying that you think Christianity is reasonable yet never bother to provide a single reasonable reason. You wouldn't even link to prior times you've apparently done so.

But you're just here for the lulz...

partyatmygaff

5uspect wrote: »

That's exactly the point. There are lots of risk factors and it's a complex problem. I'm simply just pointing out how ridiculous the OP is. The religious types will use anything to promote their god and ignore the complexity of a problem.

For someone talking about complexities and intricacies you're making an awful lot of generalisations yourself. Just because one "religious type" as you put failed to include a link in their opening post does not mean the big bad "religious types will use anything to promote their God and ignore the complexity of a problem".

Suicide is a complex problem. That isn't really up for debate. What is up for debate is whether or not being irreligious is a risk factor for suicide attempts. In other words, does a belief in God (Being religious to be precise) and the consequences of a belief in God/being religious lower one's risk of suicidal ideation. No one is suggesting that being irreligious causes suicide but what is being suggested is that the consequences of being irreligious can lead to a significantly increased risk of suicidal ideation and consequently an increased risk of committing suicide.

Perhaps a thread about such a sensitive issue should have been posted in the health sciences forum instead.


Edit:
Does every single thread have to degenerate in to a "God Debate" thread? It's not as if there haven't been thousands of other threads that were either designated or hijacked for that use already.