Irish Indo supporting animal cruelty

The King of Moo

Captain Darling wrote: »

*sigh* I put that there along with 'inbred hunting nutbags'. Mainly because, as i've said before, the debate is always so polarised. It was an ironic joke intended only for myself. I explained earlier how i felt about it:

I had no idea it was meant as a joke. Unfortunately it's not hard to believe that someone would seriously call animal rights supporters such a thing.
I hate the extremists on both sides too. I understand why animals are killed for many reasons, some necessary, some not quite so necessary like clothes and food.
But I don't like people who claim to be completely against the killing of animals for any reason, and I also hate those who kill animals purely for their own enjoyment. And I especially hate if they don't admit that's why they do it.

SisterAnn wrote: »

The reality is most of the anti-hunt sentiment eminates from citydwellers who have either half-ideas or no clue at all about country life. If there is a potential positive from this thread for me as a supporter of country sports - it is that I can dispell myths pedalled about foxhunting and in particular people's view of the fox as a 'harmless' and victimised animal.

Fine for city people who buy battery hen eggs in a supermarket. That is your 'progress' and nobody is denying you that. However a lot of rural dwellers keep their own fowl and the fox is a problem for us. I am more than keen to see them being kept in check and hunting helps with that. Foxhunting has been practiced for donkeys years in the countryside so I don't know where the drive to fix something that is not broken comes from. We could do without it.

I would love to see more mink carcasses piled up too while they are at it. Improve the bounty there for unemployed folk in gun clubs and really incentivise it.

Please stop inventing this imaginary rural/urban divide.
Many people from the country have already posted about how they hate hunting, and urban-dwellers don't have to have lived in the countryside to oppose cruelty against animals.

And that's something I don't think you've addressed.
Everyone understands why farmers would want some foxes killed in order to protect their chickens. That's fine, I think most people would say that's reasonable.

But can you explain why it's ok to do it in such a cruel and inefficient way with a sense of ritual about it?
Why not quietly go out and shoot the foxes without making such a big song and dance about it?
I don't think saying it's a tradition is valid. As I mentioned earlier, we've had lots of terrible traditions that we've thankfully lost.
And please gods, don't say I wouldn't understand as I'm from the city. Try me.

Captain Darling

The King of Moo wrote: »

I had no idea it was meant as a joke. Unfortunately it's not hard to believe that someone would seriously call animal rights supporters such a thing.
I hate the extremists on both sides too. I understand why animals are killed for many reasons, some necessary, some not quite so necessary like clothes and food.
But I don't like people who claim to be completely against the killing of animals for any reason, and I also hate those who kill animals purely for their own enjoyment. And I especially hate if they don't admit that's why they do it.

.

A sad personal joke at that.

But you know, you hit the nail on the head for me there. There doesnt seem to be any middle ground between the two. Its the same rabble rousing guff from both sides, people frothing at the mouth over animal cruelty and then the taypots who draw the country/city divide thing when not being able to see the woods from the trees so to speak.

SisterAnn

Let's not mix up ritual with tradition. Are footballers kicking off in the centre circle conducting a ritual?

Hunting is about the thrill of the chase. I myself like to dispatch foxes with a firearm. The fox often gets away with hunting. But as Mr. Tesco says - every little helps. Hunting brings colour to the countryside in winter. You usually hear the bugle or hounds before you see anything. It stirs the soul. I get a kick out of knowing that this same tradition has been passed on through generations. For all the sedentary nature of the technology-soaked 21st century, people are still getting out there across our fields and over hedges getting the most out of their steed just like their people before them. I cannot see why that should be interrupted out of misplaced sympathy for vermin.

John_Rambo

SisterAnn wrote: »

I cannot see why that should be interrupted out of misplaced sympathy for vermin.

If they don't like it, they don't like it, the farmers have every right to protest. They are not protesting out of misplaced sympathy or ignorance.

minidazzler

SisterAnn wrote: »

Country people have an inalienable right to defend their livestock, and it would be a cruel God who would deny us. Be it dogs worrying sheep or a fox after hens we are right to eliminate the threat. At least the hunt gives the little sneaky blighter a chance. It's not his worst enemy.They'll be sure to get both barrels around here.

The problem being it's not country people who are in the hunt for the most part, it's lads that moved to the country. The Country side alliance (let's call them the cunts for short) are lads who'll bitch and moan about not getting their sporting rights, but won't actually fight for the countryside.

SisterAnn

How about those who don't like it just don't go hunting then? Why this drive to ensure all others don't do so if they don't want to? That is what gets me about the anti-hunt campaign - the patronising. They have no more right to dictate to others what sports they enjoy than I have a right to tell them what car to drive.

Captain Darling

SisterAnn wrote: »

How about those who don't like it just don't go hunting then? Why this drive to ensure all others don't do so if they don't want to? That is what gets me about the anti-hunt campaign - the patronising. They have no more right to dictate to others what sports they enjoy than I have a right to tell them what car to drive.

I think the main problem is with the manner of the killing of the fox. Do you see where we are coming from here?

SisterAnn

minidazzler wrote: »

The problem being it's not country people who are in the hunt for the most part, it's lads that moved to the country.

Not true of any hunt I am familiar with but I am not familiar with Cork.

The King of Moo

SisterAnn wrote: »

Let's not mix up ritual with tradition. Are footballers kicking off in the centre circle conducting a ritual?

Hunting is about the thrill of the chase. I myself like to dispatch foxes with a firearm. The fox often gets away with hunting. But as Mr. Tesco says - every little helps. Hunting brings colour to the countryside in winter. You usually hear the bugle or hounds before you see anything. It stirs the soul. I get a kick out of knowing that this same tradition has been passed on through generations. For all the sedentary nature of the technology-soaked 21st century, people are still getting out there across our fields and over hedges getting the most out of their steed just like their people before them. I cannot see why that should be interrupted out of misplaced sympathy for vermin.

You could get all of that enjoyment from drag-hunting, or probably to a slightly lesser extent from galloping aimlessly around the place on a horse.

And saying it's as a way to get off your arse is a bit strange as there are plenty of other ways to do that without chasing and killing an animal. I go running, which has the added bonus of keeping me fit.
There's lot of other ways to bring colour to the countryside too. Hell, nature takes care of that itself in the autumn.

Lastly, I personally don't believe that my sympathy for a fox chased for miles by horses and a pack of barking dogs is misplaced. I believe that treating an animal in that way is cruel, and the victim has my sympathy regardless of whether they killed some chickens or not.
I also don't think it matters if the fox gets away sometimes: it's still cruel. In fact, that just makes me think it's more ridiculous: if the foxes sometimes get away, how can people say hunting is a good method of keeping fox populations down?

I'm also sure that the foxes probably kill the chickens as quickly and efficiently as they can.

later12

minidazzler wrote: »

The problem being it's not country people who are in the hunt for the most part, it's lads that moved to the country.

What? No it isn't. Maybe you're thinking of hunts like the South County Dublins or the like, but that certainly is not the case in the more rural hunts.

I'm struggling to think of a single subscriber in two local hunts who comes from the city. The vast majority live in the countryside, and a small minority live in medium sized local towns.

Most would themselves be landowners or else involved with horses on a very committed level (vets, competitors, jockeys, yard staff and the like)

The King of Moo

SisterAnn wrote: »

How about those who don't like it just don't go hunting then? Why this drive to ensure all others don't do so if they don't want to? That is what gets me about the anti-hunt campaign - the patronising. They have no more right to dictate to others what sports they enjoy than I have a right to tell them what car to drive.

You're creating arguments from thin air here. No-one's being patronising.
I sincerely hate cruelty to animals and would like it to be stopped.
That's why I hate fox-hunting and why it's not enough for me to simply not go fox-hunting.

Do you not understand that some people hate the way the animal is treated?

John_Rambo

SisterAnn wrote: »

How about those who don't like it just don't go hunting then? Why this drive to ensure all others don't do so if they don't want to? That is what gets me about the anti-hunt campaign - the patronising. They have no more right to dictate to others what sports they enjoy than I have a right to tell them what car to drive.

They don't like it happening SisterAnn. Farmers have reasons for not wanting the hunt and people don't like the way the fox is dispatched during some hunts. As for your comment on patronising, you have been very very patronising to city and town folk in this thread.

Because of this you are part of the reason people don't like fox hunting on horseback with the hounds and terriers, you have called them names and looked down your nose at them and accused them of not knowing anything. you are cementing the "toff on a horse" image that some people have of huntsmen and women, thus doing rural pursuits no favours at all and you won't be thanked for it.

SisterAnn

Captain Darling wrote: »

I think the main problem is with the manner of the killing of the fox. Do you see where we are coming from here?

Not really. It is immaterial in the case of vermin. I don't care about how minks, foxes, rats, grey squirrels etc. are dispatched. They are not worthy of a lethal injection as such. I am just happy to see the fox killed. It is not a pet dog.

later12

The King of Moo wrote: »

I personally don't believe that my sympathy for a fox chased for miles by horses and a pack of barking dogs is misplaced.

Which fox do you think is more likely to die a long and painful death:

A fox galloping across the countryside, shot by farmers, and frequently only injured: bleeding to death or surviving and going hungry, or

A fox trapped by the hunt and shot in situ, whose death in quick and assured?

Helix

here's the article without the quotes from attendees:

BALMY weather provided the perfect conditions for St Stephen's day hunting.

In Abbeyleix, there was the largest participation in the annual hunt with around 120 riders.

The hunt started in the square in Abbeyleix before moving in the Carlow direction through lands at Ballymullen.

Thousands turned up to see the riders and horses as they set off -- and followed their journey along the way.

A ceremonial stirrup cup marked the start point of the St Stephen's Day South Union Hunt Meet at Carrigaline in Cork, where the ground was soft.

Riders supped the traditional hot toddy before moving off towards Castlelands and Riverstick, seeking to draw the fox out.

Some 25 hounds accompanied the spectacle but catching the fox is an exceptional outcome.

Mr Maher led up to 100 riders on the hunt that boasts a 200-year history, following in the tradition set by avid rider Thomas Knowles.

Horses were transported from up to 60 miles away to take part in yesterday's event.

how does that support animal cruelty?

John_Rambo

SisterAnn wrote: »

They are not worthy of a lethal injection

Not helping SisterAnn.

Captain Darling

SisterAnn wrote: »

Not really. It is immaterial in the case of vermin. I don't care about how minks, foxes, rats, grey squirrels etc. are dispatched. They are not worthy of a lethal injection as such. I am just happy to see the fox killed. It is not a pet dog.

I'd rather a much more humane way of despatching them. I'm from the country and have been around hunts. I dont like them and i dont particularly think they are doing the countryside any favours.

Cork24

Hunting is a Way of life for some people around the whole World... Foxes are Killed within a few Seconds. its when you let one GrayHound at them and the fox attacks back then it can get a bit dirty not one for the faint hearted..


But with fox hunting banned in England Farmers are now using Hawks to hunt the fox out of their Holes and shoot them or use Hounds under the English law you can use up to 2 dogs if i am correct on that,


no matter what way you look at it.. it is wrong to turn around and say the people that only take part are scum bags, alot of Doctors Farmers, Garda members do take part in Hunting.


Hunting is well Run here in Ireland, with the bad Winter we had last year hunting was banned till it got better again, would Scum Bags place a ban on Hunting till the cold broke up abit to give a fox a chance to feed and not be in risk of getting hunted ?

SisterAnn

John_Rambo wrote: »

They don't like it happening SisterAnn. Farmers have reasons for not wanting the hunt and people don't like the way the fox is dispatched during some hunts. As for your comment on patronising, you have been very very patronising to city and town folk in this thread.

Because of this you are part of the reason people don't like fox hunting on horseback with the hounds and terriers, you have called them names and looked down your nose at them and accused them of not knowing anything. you are cementing the "toff on a horse" image that some people have of huntsmen and women, thus doing rural pursuits no favours at all and you won't be thanked for it.

THEY are the ones who would dictate to others what sports they enjoy, and yet the issue is now somehow with me? Does not compute. Nobody who knows me would use the term toff. I would be lying if I said I never met any 'toff' types in hunting circles, but that by no means characterizes your average Irish hunt. As I outlined earlier - we are talking mostly about multi-generational farming people keen on horses.

Zebra3

SisterAnn wrote: »

How about those who don't like it just don't go hunting then? Why this drive to ensure all others don't do so if they don't want to? That is what gets me about the anti-hunt campaign - the patronising. They have no more right to dictate to others what sports they enjoy than I have a right to tell them what car to drive.

Being propped up on a horse, cheering on as a fox is ripped to pieces by a pack of hounds is not sport.

Though it may make you feel big, the way bullies feel big in large groups picking on a small kid.

Captain Darling

later10 wrote: »

Which fox do you think is more likely to die a long and painful death:

A fox galloping across the countryside, shot by farmers, and frequently only injured: bleeding to death or surviving and going hungry, or

A fox trapped by the hunt and shot in situ, whose death in quick and assured?

The fox when it is chased out of the den is not cornered and shot usually, its usually killed by the hounds. Are you seriously suggesting that people use a shot gun in and around hoards of horses?

The King of Moo

later10 wrote: »

Which fox do you think is more likely to die a long and painful death:

A fox galloping across the countryside, shot by farmers, and frequently only injured: bleeding to death or surviving and going hungry, or

A fox trapped by the hunt and shot in situ, whose death in quick and assured?

A good marksman should be able to kill a fox instantly, but even if they only injure it, it wouldn't be hard to pursue an injured fox and finish it off.

With the hunted fox, the moment of death might be quick but they have to endure the chase before it.
Now obviously foxes aren't nearly intelligent or emotionally-developed as us, but they know they're being chased by a vastly superior force out to kill them, and that's what I think is cruel.

later12

Captain Darling wrote: »

I'd rather a much more humane way of despatching them. I'm from the country and have been around hunts. I dont like them and i dont particularly think they are doing the countryside any favours.

Ok then, give us your suggestion: how would you see foxes culled?

If hunting were banned here,and if that ban were successful, farmers would go out shooting foxes because that is the second most effective way of culling the fox.

If that happened, the degree of suffering of the countryside's foxes would rise to an unacceptable level. Have you ever tried to shoot a fox? Do you realise how difficult it is to shoot an animal like that? Do you realise what a painful death a fox can endure if a gunshot fails to kill him outright?

John_Rambo

SisterAnn wrote: »

Nobody who knows me would use the term toff. I would be lying if I said I never met any 'toff' types in hunting circles, but that by no means characterizes your average Irish hunt. As I outlined earlier - we are talking mostly about multi-generational farming people keen on horses.

Read my post again.

With your attitude on this thread you are only getting up peoples noses and turning people against the hunt.

If I knew you, and I was a huntsman I would call you and ask you to shut the fook up. You are making a balls of defending the hunt, you are a brutal representative.

later12

The King of Moo wrote: »

A good marksman should be able to kill a fox instantly, but even if they only injure it, it wouldn't be hard to pursue an injured fox and finish it off.

Oh come on. Ireland is not littered with farmers who can possess the capability to shoot galloping foxes outright.

Nor are there many farmers who are going to pursue foxes for miles of countryside just so they can put a 'humane' end to his life when they know he's going to die of blood loss or starvation anyway.

You're not being realistic.

The King of Moo

SisterAnn wrote: »

Not really. It is immaterial in the case of vermin. I don't care about how minks, foxes, rats, grey squirrels etc. are dispatched. They are not worthy of a lethal injection as such. I am just happy to see the fox killed. It is not a pet dog.

No offence but I find such a tolerance of cruelty disturbing, especially when there are more efficient options available.
I also don't think that the fact that foxes kill farm animals justifies being cruel to them.
You know they're just animals acting on instinct with little or no distinction between wild and domesticated animals, not evil creatures plotting to deprive farmers of their livelihood.

Captain Darling

later10 wrote: »

Ok then, give us your suggestion: how would you see foxes culled?

If hunting were banned here,and if that ban were successful, farmers would go out shooting foxes because that is the second most effective way of culling the fox.

If that happened, the degree of suffering of the countryside's foxes would rise to an unacceptable level. Have you ever tried to shoot a fox? Do you realise how difficult it is to shoot an animal like that? Do you realise what a painful death a fox can endure if a gunshot fails to kill him outright?

Err, yes, many years ago i went shooting with my father and regularly. Its far more humane then running a fox ragged, cornering it down a hole, sending terriers in after it, chasing it out and then letting it get ripped apart by the hounds.

byhookorbycrook

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

I think getting the landowners permission is very important. Everyone should have respect for other peoples property. Its not just people on horses who leave gates open, I've had people walking leave gates open and let horses loose! :mad:
To organise a drag hunt, you would have to organise a scent to follow etc. Without the hunt, you would have no hounds to follow the scent either! I not going to invest in my own pack just yet! Without these things its not a hunt, its just a group of people tearing around fields on horses.(which I do anyway)
The hunt do have a huge inffluance on the local equestrian community. It's not ideal but it's the way it is unfortunatly!

Any proper hunt will not cross land where they are unwelcome. If hounds hunt through, the huntsman will of course try to follow them. Hunts employ people to fence gaps and any field with stock is avoided as much as possible.

Before hunting an area, the hunt sends out "stock cards" to any farmer whose land might be crosses, so that the farmer can choose to move stock to a yard or another field if they so wish.

Riders must obey the field master who ensures that the field rides the headlands,don't gallop through stock and that gates are shut.
People who know nothing of hunts like to paint the riders as ascendancy wannabes who are trying to up their status. In truth, hunts are made up of a wide range of people and a huge proportion of farmers.

The King of Moo

later10 wrote: »

Oh come on. Ireland is not littered with farmers who can possess the capability to shoot galloping foxes outright.

Nor are there many farmers who are going to pursue foxes for miles of countryside just so they can put a 'humane' end to his life when they know he's going to die of blood loss or starvation anyway.

You're not being realistic.

Finding the foxes' den and shooting them there would work well.
I'm sure there are measures such as guard dogs, traps, poisons and more secure chicken coops that are much more efficient than a large group of people and dogs occasionally chasing one fox for a long time.

Zebra3

Helix wrote: »

here's the article without the quotes from attendees:



how does that support animal cruelty?

"Some 25 hounds accompanied the spectacle but catching the fox is an exceptional outcome."

Descibing it as a spectacle is not being objective. And the hunters' propagandists fail to say what happened to the fox or what happens when the "exceptional outcome" does actually happen.

No facts are produced to back up the claim of the fox being ripped to shreads by hounds as "exceptional".