Irish Indo supporting animal cruelty

MungBean

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Everyone who partakes in a hunt is of low intelligence?

Not necessarily, but the more civilisation progresses the less these stupid traditions and barbaric practices are tolerated. Although I would argue that anyone who claims to be intelligent and thinks tormenting an animal is an acceptable past time is only fooling themselves.

Irish Guitarist

Calling any animal 'vermin' is moronic. If killing other animals to eat makes an animal 'vermin' then human beings are the greatest vermin this planet has ever known. At least other animals tend not to hunt each other to extinction.

This idea that animal numbers need to be controlled by humans is moronic and is just an excuse to kill something. Nature can look after itself well enough without humans deciding which animals need to be killed off. In cases where animals are responsible for hunting other animals to extinction it's usually because humans introduced them into an environment where they don't belong.

What I really despise about fox hunting is the way they drag other animals into it. They're too lazy to even run after the fox so they sit on horses and let dogs rip the poor fox apart.

Ms. Pingui

MungBean wrote: »

Not necessarily, but the more civilisation progresses the less these stupid traditions and barbaric practices are tolerated. Although I would argue that anyone who claims to be intelligent and thinks tormenting an animal is an acceptable past time is only fooling themselves.

I don't think tormenting any animal is acceptable, thats why I don't hunt. I think a lot of people who hunt would be happy to take part in draghunting, because like ive said before, they don't go out to kill the fox! I think it would be a win win situation really!

goose2005

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Did God grant you to right to slaughter innocent animals?

How guilty, exactly, was your Christmas turkey? Or the pigs, cattle, sheep, chickens etc. you eat all year round?

Captain Darling wrote: »

The majority of people that follow the hunt are a pack of stuffed shirt knobs.

I've no time for their argument in relation to pest control either, its a load of bollocks. Unneccessary cruelty IMHO.

As opposed to necessary cruelty - the meat that you absolutely must eat?

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

What absolute crap. It's simply done as a form of 'enjoyment', and what sort of sub-human would enjoy something like that?

But surely the feelings of the killed animal are more important than those of the killer? What does it matter to a pig that its slaughterer takes pleasure in his/her death, or that the slaughterer sees it as an unpleasant job for €9 an hour? What does it matter to the killed animal?

MungBean wrote: »

Do foxes and sparrow hawks hunt on horseback with trained packs of dogs ?

Foxes and hawks target the weakest and most vulnerable creatures, as does any hunter. No point in investing them with any sort of 'fair play' idea, they kill and eat whatever is easiest.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It must be possible to have a day out in the countryside horseriding without scaring a fox to death?

I've nothing against people hunting - it isn't for me but as long as it takes account of conservation issues and the hunter would eat whatever he shot I wouldn't have much of an issue. Chasing foxes in this fashion isn't hunting.

Well, it makes no odds to the killed animal whether he/she is eaten or not. Foxes are in no danger of extinction in Ireland.

MungBean

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

I don't think tormenting any animal is acceptable, thats why I don't hunt. I think a lot of people who hunt would be happy to take part in draghunting, because like ive said before, they don't go out to kill the fox! I think it would be a win win situation really!

But they encourage it by participating in a hunt when it would be so easy to organise a ride out without the intentions of running a fox. But the entire thing is perpetuated by this want to keep the tradition and the tradition involves tormenting a fox. Regardless of whether they go out for the sole purpose of killing a fox nor not doesnt matter, they are taking part in a hunt where the end objective is killing a fox.

You dont do it because you think its not acceptable so why do you think its acceptable for others to do ?

Benny_Cake

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

I don't think tormenting any animal is acceptable, thats why I don't hunt. I think a lot of people who hunt would be happy to take part in draghunting, because like ive said before, they don't go out to kill the fox! I think it would be a win win situation really!

Genuine question - if that is the case what is stopping hunts from organising drag hunts? As you say it would be win-win and would wrong-foot the anti-hunt groups.

Captain Darling

goose2005 wrote: »

How guilty, exactly, was your Christmas turkey? Or the pigs, cattle, sheep, chickens etc. you eat all year round?


As opposed to necessary cruelty - the meat that you absolutely must eat?
.

The last time I was in an abbatoir i didnt see a group of jumped up flutes on horseback watching a cow being dug out of a hole and terriers ripping it apart.

Zebra3

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

I'm from the country and I have spent my whole life around horses and I train horses. Most people on this thread seem to think that evryone who hunts is stuck up and posh and loves killing animals.

I know heaps of people who hunt and the vast majority of them don't go out to see a fox get killed. They go to train their horses over the ditches, drains and stonewalls. They go to have a good day out jumping with their horse and thier friends. The fox is very, very rarely caught!

I don't hunt myself because I don't like any type of bloodsports. I'm just making the point that most people don't go hunting for the reasons you might think. If you saw how well these people treat their horses you would see that the majority of them are the opposite of cruel and barbaric!

Lots of murderers love their families so they couldn't be that bad cos they kill the odd stranger. :rolleyes:

Yahew

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

We should follow Englands lead and ban fox hunting with hounds. It's really quite a barbaric 'sport'.

it's only sorta banned.

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Calling any animal 'vermin' is moronic. If killing other animals to eat makes an animal 'vermin' then human beings are the greatest vermin this planet has ever known. At least other animals tend not to hunt each other to extinction.

This idea that animal numbers need to be controlled by humans is moronic and is just an excuse to kill something. Nature can look after itself well enough without humans deciding which animals need to be killed off. In cases where animals are responsible for hunting other animals to extinction it's usually because humans introduced them into an environment where they don't belong.

There were plenty of extinctions prior to humanity appearing on the scene. Humans almost went extinct. Nature looking after itself would lead to extinctions, in fact human actions are nature looking after itself, as we are totally natural.

Foxes were hunted as they caused humans to loose the chickens and other livestock which would be the difference between life and death for their families. Now it is less necessary, but the fox is no more terrified by the hounds than the chicken is by the fox, or the mouse by the cat, the fish by the rod etc. Nature. Red in tooth and claw.

What I really despise about fox hunting is the way they drag other animals into it. They're too lazy to even run after the fox so they sit on horses and let dogs rip the poor fox apart.

To be fair they actually do chase on the horses, and presumably that takes some skill. People have died. Not really the same as you sitting around waiting for your Bit Meat Pizza.

melekalikimaka

dont see the issue, hunting is part of our heritage... we lose that... we lose a part of ourselves. after nuclear war, those toffs will be the mad maxs of the country with their skillz

Ms. Pingui

MungBean wrote: »

But they encourage it by participating in a hunt when it would be so easy to organise a ride out without the intentions of running a fox. But the entire thing is perpetuated by this want to keep the tradition and the tradition involves tormenting a fox. Regardless of whether they go out for the sole purpose of killing a fox nor not doesnt matter, they are taking part in a hunt where the end objective is killing a fox.

You dont do it because you think its not acceptable so why do you think its acceptable for others to do ?

No it wouldn't be that easy to organise something else unfortunatly.
I accept it because I understand thier reasons for hunting. If someone told me that they only hunted to kill the fox I wouldn't be as accepting of it. Anyway its up to the individual at the end of the day.
Though if the hunt was stopped altogether I'd be in trouble because a lot of my work is breaking horses and ponies for the hunting season!

Ms. Pingui

Captain Darling wrote: »

The last time I was in an abbatoir i didnt see a group of jumped up flutes on horseback watching a cow being dug out of a hole and terriers ripping it apart.

Why do you assume that EVERYONE who hunts is a "jumped up flute"?

Ms. Pingui

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Genuine question - if that is the case what is stopping hunts from organising drag hunts? As you say it would be win-win and would wrong-foot the anti-hunt groups.

Don't really know why they don't do it. Probably because a lot of the older members would be opposed to it. It's a shame really.

Captain Darling

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Why do you assume that EVERYONE who hunts is a "jumped up flute"?

Apologies, i associate the picture of anyone willing to stand around with their mouths open watching what happens as being jumped up. I know certain parts of the hunt do not enjoy the spectacle of what happens at the kill.

Dyr

the day involved culchies, stuck up gimps and cruelty to animals..if that wasn't grounds for a napalm strike on abbeyleix then I don't know what is.

MungBean

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

No it wouldn't be that easy to organise something else unfortunatly.
I accept it because I understand thier reasons for hunting. If someone told me that they only hunted to kill the fox I wouldn't be as accepting of it. Anyway its up to the individual at the end of the day.
Though if the hunt was stopped altogether I'd be in trouble because a lot of my work is breaking horses and ponies for the hunting season!

Why wouldnt it be that easy ? All it would take is one person to say "lets go this way instead and leave the fox alone". You are using the point that a lot of people want to train their horses and enjoy the day and dont actually want to kill a fox. Follow the leader instead of the dogs and its mission accomplished. Unless of course they value the tradition more highly than the fox's life or welfare in which case its not easy to organise something else because people enjoy hunting the fox.

I wouldnt like to see anyone lose their jobs but at the same time I dont think animal cruelty should be accepted and that applies to both being entertained by it and profiting from it.

goose2005

Captain Darling wrote: »

The last time I was in an abbatoir i didnt see a group of jumped up flutes on horseback watching a cow being dug out of a hole and terriers ripping it apart.

No, but you are likely to see someone who is bored and tired, killing carcass #843 of the day and not making such a neat job of it for €9 an hour.

recylingbin

animals die.
nobody cares.
at least nobody that matters.

SisterAnn

Zebra3 wrote: »

Lots of murderers love their families so they couldn't be that bad cos they kill the odd stranger. :rolleyes:

An analogy between a murderer of humans and foxhunting? Ha. If I needed anything to prove the Disneyfied garden of Eden view of nature that these anti-hunters seem to harbour - this would be a choice quote.

Foxes are not humans - they are vermin. Can we please get that straight in this thread. It would be nice to organize city hunts to flush them out of there too. It is now hard to drive around Dublin suburbs at night now without seeing the sneaks!

If you don't like foxhunting - don't go. But don't be so presumptious as to dictate to others how to enjoy their sport. I know the anti-hunt PC types like to think of themselves as sophisticated because they take offence on behalf of others and anyone who disagrees with them is quickly labelled as backwards, preventing 'progress' (for progress read a movement towards their preferred state), or indeed as has we have a seen in this thread, "neanderthal". Taking offence on behalf of vermin? There are more fruitful ways to set about improving the world.

nlgbbbblth

Eight pages in and nobody sees the real problem here - the b*stard pack of dogs.

Capt'n Midnight

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Calling any animal 'vermin' is moronic.

Grey Squirrels

Ms. Pingui

MungBean wrote: »

Why wouldnt it be that easy ? All it would take is one person to say "lets go this way instead and leave the fox alone". You are using the point that a lot of people want to train their horses and enjoy the day and dont actually want to kill a fox. Follow the leader instead of the dogs and its mission accomplished. Unless of course they value the tradition more highly than the fox's life or welfare in which case its not easy to organise something else because people enjoy hunting the fox.

I wouldnt like to see anyone lose their jobs but at the same time I dont think animal cruelty should be accepted and that applies to both being entertained by it and profiting from it.

Are you talking about getting a group together during a hunt and then fcuking off and doing your own thing? You would get in A LOT of trouble for doing that.
If you are talking about organising a seperate event then there are issues regarding getting land owners permission and insurance etc. Things are quite strict because horse riding is a risk sport.
Some people wouldn't want to piss off the hunt because they are quite an influencial group in the equestrian community.

The King of Moo

I see "animal rights nutters" is now one of the tags for this thread.

Sigh. Such blanket labelling is so childish and usually the reserve of people who know they've lost the argument.

Not all people who support the fair treatment of animals believe that animals' lives are equal to humans'.
In general, I believe that a human's life is worth more than any animal's life (in general), but I also believe that animals should be treated as humanely as possible, and not killed without good reason (eg. for food, population control or the protection of people).
When it's necessary to slaughter animals, they should be killed in the most humane way possible.

I know for a fact that this view does not make me a nutter.
I think someone who dresses up in a special uniform with their friends and gets on horseback and brings along a pack of dogs to chase a single weak animal is more likely to be a nutter, but I would never say all people who do that are nutters as I can't be sure.

People who have this skewed view of Darwinism and believe that killing any animal in any way simply because we can do it, and hey, they do it too, is ok, really scare me.
I could probably chase and beat up lots of children, but I wouldn't do that as I have no desire to do so, and according to my moral system, that would be wrong.
Sure we're animals too, but we've moved long past the "nature, red in tooth and claw" phase.
Just because we can kill an animal in a cruel and inefficient way, doesn't mean we should do it or have to do it.
Any human society should be judged by how it treats those it sees as weaker than its members, and I include animals in that.

And while I don't like to tar a whole group of people with the same brush (though I sometimes do anyway) and I like to give everyone a fair crack of the whip, I would have to be convinced that the people engaged in such hunts are not all massive tools.

John_Rambo

SisterAnn wrote: »

It would be nice to organize city hunts to flush them out of there too. It is now hard to drive around Dublin suburbs at night now without seeing the sneaks!

Again with the silly rural/urban crap SisterAnn.

The foxes in Dublin don't cause any problems. Dubliners and other city dwellers have learnt to live side by side with indigenous wildlife. Foxes, badgers, deer, dolphins, otters, seals, buzzards, falcons and hundreds of other animals call Dublin and other cities home. Why eliminate them? I quiet like sharing my environment with various aspects of Irish wildlife. We enjoy seeing them.

Grey squirrels and mangy feral cats are a problem.

MungBean

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Are you talking about getting a group together during a hunt and then fcuking off and doing your own thing? You would get in A LOT of trouble for doing that.
If you are talking about organising a seperate event then there are issues regarding getting land owners permission and insurance etc. Things are quite strict because horse riding is a risk sport.
Some people wouldn't want to piss off the hunt because they are quite an influencial group in the equestrian community.

I'm talking about all the people who dont want to kill foxes doing something other than trying to kill foxes. If you can get landowners permission to go on a hunt (which doesnt always happen as many a landowner will attest to having had their ditches ploughed through and gates left open when the hunt goes through without a peep about permission) then surely you can get it for an event thats not designed to follow foxes.

The fact that people dont do something else despite opposing the cruelty aspect because of the influence in the community shows it for the outdated pointless tradition it actually is.

Zebra3

SisterAnn wrote: »

It would be nice to organize city hunts to flush them out of there too. It is now hard to drive around Dublin suburbs at night now without seeing the sneaks!

Why would you want to organise city hunts? I thought hunters only done this to protect farmers livestock? Or is that just your bloodlust showing? :rolleyes:

SisterAnn wrote: »

If you don't like foxhunting - don't go. But don't be so presumptious as to dictate to others how to enjoy their sport.

Your definition of "sport" is terrorising innocent animals. You're a right class act. :rolleyes:

Captain Darling

The King of Moo wrote: »

I see "animal rights nutters" is now one of the tags for this thread.

Sigh. Such blanket labelling is so childish and usually the reserve of people who know they've lost the argument.

Not all people who support the fair treatment of animals believe that animals' lives are equal to humans'.
In general, I believe that a human's life is worth more than any animal's life (in general), but I also believe that animals should be treated as humanely as possible, and not killed without good reason (eg. for food, population control or the protection of people).
When it's necessary to slaughter animals, they should be killed in the most humane way possible.

I know for a fact that this view does not make me a nutter.
I think someone who dresses up in a special uniform with their friends and gets on horseback and brings along a pack of dogs to chase a single weak animal is more likely to be a nutter, but I would never say all people who do that are nutters as I can't be sure.

People who have this skewed view of Darwinism and believe that killing any animal in any way simply because we can do it, and hey, they do it too, is ok, really scare me.
I could probably chase and beat up lots of children, but I wouldn't do that as I have no desire to do so, and according to my moral system, that would be wrong.
Sure we're animals too, but we've moved long past the "nature, red in tooth and claw" phase.
Just because we can kill an animal in a cruel and inefficient way, doesn't mean we should do it or have to do it.
Any human society should be judged by how it treats those it sees as weaker than its members, and I include animals in that.

And while I don't like to tar a whole group of people with the same brush (though I sometimes do anyway) and I like to give everyone a fair crack of the whip, I would have to be convinced that the people engaged in such hunts are not all massive tools.

*sigh* I put that there along with 'inbred hunting nutbags'. Mainly because, as i've said before, the debate is always so polarised. It was an ironic joke intended only for myself. I explained earlier how i felt about it:

Captain Darling wrote: »

Its a very polarising subject and i think it actually sustains the stand off between the pro and anti sides. Its very extreme from both sides, i've never really heard any moderate debate on the subject which might create a proper resolution for people to enjoy the day out on their horses without torturing and victimising a poor animal.

I've heard a few people representing the pro hunting brigade on the radio (Matt Cooper etc) and they sound like the most inbred, toffee nosed twats you'd ever meet in your life, but on the other hand the anti hunting element are a crowd of tofu eating, fight da powah, lefty crusties.

It always seems to spiral into a shouting match between the two and the same can be said of what is going on here.

Both sides seem to be overly represented by caricatures of what they stand for and it really doesnt help.

Thats just my inner liberal, hippy douchebag opinion on it. Why cant we all get along? Mannnnn....

SisterAnn

John_Rambo wrote: »

Again with the silly rural/urban crap SisterAnn.

The foxes in Dublin don't cause any problems. Dubliners and other city dwellers have learnt to live side by side with indigenous wildlife. Foxes, badgers, deer, dolphins, otters, seals, buzzards, falcons and hundreds of other animals call Dublin and other cities home. Why eliminate them? I quiet like sharing my environment with various aspects of Irish wildlife. We enjoy seeing them.

Grey squirrels and mangy feral cats are a problem.

The reality is most of the anti-hunt sentiment eminates from citydwellers who have either half-ideas or no clue at all about country life. If there is a potential positive from this thread for me as a supporter of country sports - it is that I can dispell myths pedalled about foxhunting and in particular people's view of the fox as a 'harmless' and victimised animal.

Fine for city people who buy battery hen eggs in a supermarket. That is your 'progress' and nobody is denying you that. However a lot of rural dwellers keep their own fowl and the fox is a problem for us. I am more than keen to see them being kept in check and hunting helps with that. Foxhunting has been practiced for donkeys years in the countryside so I don't know where the drive to fix something that is not broken comes from. We could do without it.

I would love to see more mink carcasses piled up too while they are at it. Improve the bounty there for unemployed folk in gun clubs and really incentivise it.

Ms. Pingui

MungBean wrote: »

I'm talking about all the people who dont want to kill foxes doing something other than trying to kill foxes. If you can get landowners permission to go on a hunt (which doesnt always happen as many a landowner will attest to having had their ditches ploughed through and gates left open when the hunt goes through without a peep about permission) then surely you can get it for an event thats not designed to follow foxes.

The fact that people dont do something else despite opposing the cruelty aspect because of the influence in the community shows it for the outdated pointless tradition it actually is.

I think getting the landowners permission is very important. Everyone should have respect for other peoples property. Its not just people on horses who leave gates open, I've had people walking leave gates open and let horses loose! :mad:
To organise a drag hunt, you would have to organise a scent to follow etc. Without the hunt, you would have no hounds to follow the scent either! I not going to invest in my own pack just yet! Without these things its not a hunt, its just a group of people tearing around fields on horses.(which I do anyway)
The hunt do have a huge inffluance on the local equestrian community. It's not ideal but it's the way it is unfortunatly!

John_Rambo

SisterAnn wrote: »

The reality is most of the anti-hunt sentiment eminates from citydwellers who have either half-ideas or no clue at all about country life. If there is a potential positive from this thread for me as a supporter of country sports - it is that I can dispell myths pedalled about foxhunting and in particular people's view of the fox as a 'harmless' and victimised animal

The only people that held any type of protest recently were Farmers Against Foxhunting SisterAnn.

You are using this thread to peddle your rural v city crap.

You are a pretty bad representative of pro country sports because you are insulting people, tarring them with the one brush and you seem to dislike nature and the beauty of Irish wildlife.

When I see people like you logging on and acting like you are, slagging off people, calling them names, calling for hunts in areas where wildlife is not harming anyone, showing ignorance when it comes to wildlife I cringe because I am a big fan of wild game and fish, I buy and cook it all the time. I'd like that to continue. When the likes of you comes on and misrepresents and alienates country pursuits, you get up peoples noses and my game and fish will become rarer and more expensive!

So, please. Stop.

Thank you.