Do you think you're middle class?

Yahew

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats almost always a lie , even with all the swindling and tax dodging most of them still pay (by amount) far more than somebody on the average industrial wage

Yeah? Even Phillip Green - UK industrialist who didn't pay a penny. And what about the high paid Public Servant, and/or RTE employee - a gain or a loss to the tax payer?

Or subsidised bankers? Their cost is the externalities, not just their pay.
In any case, this is about the middle class - a libertarian argument on who pays taxes is out of bounds.

EuropeanSon

Hardly. Saying that I belong to some "class" of people suggests that there are others out there who I'd consider on a par with me, which is obviously preposterous.

Eric Cartman

Yahew wrote: »

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats almost always a lie , even with all the swindling and tax dodging most of them still pay (by amount) far more than somebody on the average industrial wage

Yeah? Even Phillip Green - UK industrialist who didn't pay a penny. And what about the high paid Public Servant, and/or RTE employee - a gain or a loss to the tax payer?

Or subsidised bankers? Their cost is the externalities, not just their pay.
In any case, this is about the middle class - a libertarian argument on who pays taxes is out of bounds.

Rte and public service still pay tax on their paypacket, even though the money comes from taxes , Philip green - well his companies pay tax , anything he runs pays tax, he was pretty smart about avoiding tax though , hes in the severe minority.

The banks should never have been bailed out

Dionysus

I have never thought of myself as part of a 'class' in the British way the word is used here. I identify with people in all sections of that class structure.

If I were to invent my own class it would be of people who value education hugely, who see the merits in hard work and ambition, who support musicians and artists and who see the value in supporting an Irish cultural life and community. I would be happier to see my children become highly educated bilingual (at least) accomplished musicians on a decent salary than to see them become rich.

For the negatively defined aspect of this class identity, my class would be full of people who can't abide the incessant consumerism of British soccer, reality shows and commercial radio and tv generally.

Yahew

Dionysus wrote: »

I have never thought of myself as part of a 'class' in the British way the word is used here. I identify with people in all sections of that class structure.

If I were to invent my own class it would be of people who value education hugely, who see the merits in hard work and ambition, who support musicians and artists and who see the value in supporting an Irish cultural life and community. I would be happier to see my children become highly educated bilingual (at least) accomplished musicians on a decent salary than to see them become rich.

For the negatively defined aspect of this class identity, my class would be full of people who can't abide the incessant consumerism of British soccer, reality shows and commercial radio and tv generally.

Thats a social, not economic, definition of class.

Dionysus

Yahew wrote: »

Thats a social, not economic, definition of class.

Yes, like I said I don't believe the economically-based aspect of the British class definition is a useful one for self-definition in Ireland generally given our history. It's certainly not useful for me.

Yahew

Dionysus wrote: »

Yes, like I said I don't believe the economically-based aspect of the British class definition is a useful one for self-definition in Ireland generally given our history. It's certainly not useful for me.

Actually the British definition was almost entirely social, I have before me ( from a Kindle book about 19th century London) the serving list for the top people in the country - its designed for a footman - which starts at the Queen/King and ends with a lawyer. In the meantime there are first born of Earls, Dukes, Barons, Lords, Military ranks, honorifics, bishops, vicars, and other gentry to get through. There are 100 entries per sex. Getting it wrong was social sucicide.

After the top 100, the rest are common. The only law was serve the wives of commoners first, the husband second, and a widow before a single woman - commoners, including a capitalist rich man, were he invited to the party. would be at the end.

The people at the top social list are not necessarily the richest in the country, it's a social list.

The American definition is economic. However the American definition of "middle class" is far too broad.

Its up to the OP, but I would suggest he defines if he wants economic class, or social class definition for middle class. Social class is in the eye of the beholder these days - your private life is your own business.

I think the broad definition of middle class is misleading, and deliberately so. I am above median income and university educated but I can hardly be middle class if the citizens of Howth and Dalkey are also middle class; the difference between them and me is far greater than the social difference between the "working class" and me.

Beir Bua

"If the men of property will not support us, they must fall. Our strength shall come from that great and respectable class, the men of no property".

Wolfe Tone was correct, the "men of no property" the poor in other words, truly are great and respectable unlike the rich who tend to be egotists, incredibly materialistic and greedy and above all out for one thing only, self preservation. One is pleased to see exceptions, they truly shame their peers.


BB

Latchy

Sooopie wrote: »

and if you cannot spell you're properly?

On my third bottle of wine ? ...no

Liam Byrne wrote: »

.....screwed ?

Fcuked .

Acacia

There was a time back maybe in 2003-4 when the parentals could afford a daycent car and Sky TV, that was as close as I ever got to being middle-class.

newmug

A lot of people are confusing the definitions of the traditional class systems. Ie. social-class, economic class, the old english "family" type class, and stereotypes. They're 4 different things. They can overlap, but you need to say which one you mean.


I dont believe in all this class bull anyway. However, I do limit who I associate with sometimes. Generally I try to avoid fools, but I respect them even when I do have to interact with them.

Gonzor wrote: »

Im probably lower class. I went to public schools for both primary and secondary. Father was a guard, mother's a journalist (and part time free lance artist).... and here I am struggling financially to get through college (architecture). So reckon Im pretty low down

You went to school, so you're not in the lowest class of any of the 4 class systems.

• By the economic class system, you're from a working background, so you're working class.
• Similarly by social class system, you are of good character and you are putting yourself through college, so you're working class.
• In the english family / rank system, you are not related to royalty and you wont inherit a title etc., so you're a peasant.
• From the stereotype system, you could be nearly anything. You havent given much detail on that. I'm a culchie:D

Yahew

Good definitions, newmug. Although some people would see the college educated as middle class. I personally don't, as I stick to economic class.

newmug

Yahew wrote: »

Good definitions, newmug. Although some people would see the college educated as middle class. I personally don't, as I stick to economic class.

College educated people used to be seen as middle class from the economic system point of view, because only the middle class could afford to go. Nowadays its almost free, so anyone from any class can go.

But from a social system point of view (ie the one where character matters, not money), you go to college to learn how to do a job. So its working class.

newmug

newmug wrote: »

College educated people used to be seen as middle class from the economic system point of view, because only the middle class could afford to go. Nowadays its almost free, so anyone from any class can go.

But from a social system point of view (ie the one where character matters, not money), you go to college to learn how to do a job. So its working class.

So anybody who works for a living is working class? So both a binman and doctor would be working class.

EGAR

I forgot what class I am, I never go to the reunions..

newmug

Deleted User wrote: »

So anybody who works for a living is working class? So both a binman and doctor would be working class.

From a social class system point of view, yes. From an economic class system point of view, it would depend on who earns more.

Eric Cartman

Deleted User wrote: »

So anybody who works for a living is working class? So both a binman and doctor would be working class.

its a weird division, the normal defenition is anyone in a manual labour / below average industrial wage / menial or unskilled employment would be working class and above would be middle class, but with unions, benchmarking etc its shifted slightly.

I find the topic quite fascinating. Good discussion about it, especially for after hours.

me_right_one

Newmug's post on the last page sums it up the best.

Sheeps

im upper class bitches!

ejmaztec

EGAR wrote: »

I forgot what class I am, I never go to the reunions..

I always sat at the back, never in the middle, and only ever in the front when the teacher had big jugs.

Chuck Stone

I wasn't in school that day.

mikemac1

Yahew wrote: »

I expect that the entire Irish population has ancestors who were servants or peasants in 1850 and before. There were no Irish Catholic Gentry or Aristrocrats.

Daniel O'Connell?

And there were others

Yahew

mikemac1 wrote: »

Daniel O'Connell?

And there were others

Yes, but very few. Some in the west ( o'Briens). Where I am now posting from, Tipperary, the local baron's descendent is Chancellor of the Exchequer and I doubt he has ever been to Tipp.

later12

Yahew wrote: »

later10 wrote:

Part of the problem is that the two[working for a PAYE wage0 are not mutually exclusive[exploiting people]

Yeah, as bankers work for wages.

Don't misquote me please.

I didn't say anything about PAYE workers for good reason.

Lots of self employed people as well as PAYE earners exploit other self employes people and other PAYE earners.

The actual quote:

later10 wrote:

We Need Community wrote: »

those who work for a wage and those who exploit those workers for their own financial gain.

Part of the problem is that the two are not mutually exclusive.

sheesh

marymoo81 wrote: »

In these times, what is middle class? Someone from the Southside, broke, someone from the Northside, hols, new cars? Busy carpenter versus out of work insurance broker? This recession is a great equlaiser

sorry bud but the carpenters are hurting too

Yahew

later10 wrote: »

Don't misquote me please.

I didn't say anything about PAYE workers for good reason.

Lots of self employed people as well as PAYE earners exploit other self employes people and other PAYE earners.

The actual quote:

How did I mis quote you? - i quoted the post. I was also agreeing.

Honest opinion

I am Rather Middle Class i drink carlsberg and spit on those less fortunate

Dionysus

Honest opinion wrote: »

I am Rather Middle Class i drink carlsberg and spit on those less fortunate

In beer terms, that Carlsberg is one ferociously lower class soccer hooligan drink.

The truly "rather middle class" would, in beer terms, go for microbrewery stuff rather than such common muck.

Honest opinion

Dionysus wrote: »

In beer terms, that Carlsberg is one ferociously lower class soccer hooligan drink.

The truly "rather middle class" would, in beer terms, go for microbrewery stuff rather than such common muck.

I agree but most of the times im drinking carlsberg is when im taking a break from snorting cavair and 50 euro notes