Political Correctness

Toby Take a Bow

guitarzero wrote: »

apaynea wrote: »

Apparently Suarez said 'Negrito' which is spanish for 'little black fellah'. It almost sounds like an endearing term.

Hmmmm. Almost, but not quite. I think 'negrito' is considered an offensive term. That's what you've got to consider it in light of. Doesn't matter whether you personally don't find 'paddy' or whatever offensive.

Snakeblood wrote: »

It's getting so you can't call a spade a you know what any more. :mad:

It's political correctness GONE MADE!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmkHLiZMJeU

ch750536

Funny thing was that Alan Hansens comments were correct, he wasn't talking about black people he was talking about non white people. The accepted term for this is 'coloured' people, as a group. How many would have complained if he had said 'non white'? More I reckon.

Captain Darling

Political correctness is an industry. It'll come to the stage where we wont be able to describe someone according to their race, gender, religion, colour, ethnic background etc without being accused of being politically incorrect.

im invisible

apaynea wrote: »

personally if someone called me a "Paddy" I wouldn't feel offended but I guess thats racist as well?? What if someone has a big nose and you call him "Big Nose" I guess thats racist as well?

anti-semite!

Captain Darling

im invisible wrote: »

anti-semite!

Anti-anti-semite!

pragmatic1

I think overall PC has been a positive force in the lives of many people. However, its being abused and used as a weapon in some cases. This only stifles discussion and is dangerous imo.

tigger123

Captain Darling wrote: »

Political correctness is an industry. It'll come to the stage where we wont be able to describe someone according to their race, gender, religion, colour, ethnic background etc without being accused of being politically incorrect.

How on earth is political correctness an industry?

Being PC is an extension of good manners, and treating people with a bit of respect, its that simple.

It's funny, ya rarely hear any minorities giving out people being pc, its always white males, it really says a lot.

harrythehat

PC has gone too far in places, for example not being able to have a crib at the hospital, but footballers have to be responsible because they are role models for kids all over the world.

Captain Darling

tigger123 wrote: »

How on earth is political correctness an industry?

Being PC is an extension of good manners, and treating people with a bit of respect, its that simple.

It's funny, ya rarely hear any minorities giving out people being pc, its always white males, it really says a lot.

Its an industry in so far as that it can be used in the work place as a tool for unscrupulous employees. I've seen the card used in my workplace with a few people to get out of work or claim that they have been discriminated against.

Good manners is good manners and treating people with respect is the same, its not political correctness. Dignity in the workplace is one thinig, using political correctness is another.

What you describe there is bullsh1t, so get off the fcuking moral high horse for fcuks sakes. Fcuking bleeding heart society. :rolleyes:

Einhard

tigger123 wrote: »

How on earth is political correctness an industry?

Being PC is an extension of good manners, and treating people with a bit of respect, its that simple.

It's funny, ya rarely hear any minorities giving out people being pc, its always white males, it really says a lot.

PC originated as en extension of good manners, but sometimes it goes so far that it manages to offend everyone save those people using it.

I remember a guy on Joe Duffy a few years back talking about a crib that had been removed from a hospital. He was Muslim and couldn't understand why the crib was removed because he didn't know anyone amongst his group of friends and acquaintances who had any difficulty with it. But some PC person in the hospital decreed, unilaterally, that Muslims would be offended and removed the crib. This Muslim guy rightfully pointed out that this would cause a backlash, and that Muslims would, unfairly, be targeted for criticism and condemnation as a result. So...as a result of one stupid PC decision, the two groups involved were offended. The only people satisfied with the action were the very people who took it. I fail to see how that could be described as an extension of good manners.

Don't get me wrong. There's an awful lot that's great about PC, and many of those who object to it do so because it cramps their racist/bigoted style. But, now and then, it goes far too far, and the Hansen incident is an example of this.

TheZohanS

guitarzero wrote: »

I think the whole Terry/Suarez thing is ridiculous. Has it even been proven they actually made racist statements?

Here is a very interesting article on the whole Suarez incident, the author has gone into great depth in checking out the cultural differences and nuances when using the word "negrito".

Suarez used the word in a racist manner to get a reaction from Evra. Read the full article, before reading it I thought this whole thing was blown out of proportion, it wasn't.

sock puppet

ch750536 wrote: »

Funny thing was that Alan Hansens comments were correct, he wasn't talking about black people he was talking about non white people. The accepted term for this is 'coloured' people

The only place I know of where coloured is used to refer to non-white people is South Africa where it means mixed race.

Kevin Duffy

A worthwhile debate OP, had you not put it on a shaky footing by starting with that title. Calling someone a racist name, in the way that Saurez has been found guilty of, is just racist, it has nothing to do with being un-PC.

The reaction of so many people in football and in particular the LFC players wearing the shirts the other night, is not suprising, but is dismaying. Suarez didn't engage in light-hearted banter, he racially abused someone. I don't care who he's played with in the past, or who his grandfather was or any of the other pathetic mitigation he's offered, he knew what he was saying was bigoted abuse and he's been rightly punished.
Football is not some oasis from normal society, racism has as little place there as it should in the rest of the world and I hope Suarez' punishment makes football in general think hard about its behaviour.

ch750536

sock puppet wrote: »

The only place I know of where coloured is used to refer to non-white people is South Africa where it means mixed race.

http://www.naacp.org
Best tell them, they are based the US.
'National Association for the Advancement of Colored People'

eviltimeban

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

guitarzero wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmkHLiZMJeU

I love Stewart Lee! Totally agree with what he says!

nlgbbbblth

ch750536 wrote: »

http://www.naacp.org
Best tell them, they are based the US.
'National Association for the Advancement of Colored People'

Are you a member?

up for anything

Oranage2 wrote: »

I've been called half caste and it never bothered me - If I see a mixed race person I'd describe him/her as half or mixed. As what guitar zero was saying you are what you are.

That's you. Different strokes and all that.

ch750536

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Are you a member?

No.

44leto

I am very for political correctness and I believe it was a force for good. I remember when these clearly offensive, demeaning racist and sexist terms were bandied about in normal conversation.

If you want to see what it was like watch the excellent BeeB series "Life on Mars" words like N#gg#r, puff, fag, Paki, Mick were just everyday conversation, that surely would not have been good for the esteem or dignity of minorities.

sock puppet

ch750536 wrote: »

http://www.naacp.org
Best tell them, they are based the US.
'National Association for the Advancement of Colored People'

And? When do its members ever refer to themselves as coloured in conversation?

RichieC

I'm a pool fan and Suarez dissapointed me. but then I've been disgusted with him since the hans ball in the world cup. He's a talented player but also a bit of a liability...

The King of Moo

Context, context, context.

That's the problem with words, they have no inherent meaning.
They mean different things depending on who's using them, where they're using them, and how they use them.

If someone called me a "paddy" in London in the 70s, it might well have been said with a bit of venom.

If an English person called me "paddy" now, it'd probably be a bit of light-hearted banter that I wouldn't take offence to. I'd be able to tell their intent by the way they said it.

As for Suarez, it seems to me like he was being clearly racist. If, as mentioned in the article above, "negrito" in South America is roughly equivalent to "nigga" as used between black people in the U.S, then Suarez was probably being racist, especially by repeating it.
Imagine a white American sports player calling a black opponent "mah nigga." Do you think that would be affectionate?

Political correctness in general I think was originally a well-intentioned extension of basic manners.
I don't have a problem with being aware of things members of other cultures might be sensitive to, and ensuring I'm polite to them.

Unfortunately, the problems arise when attempts are made to spread political correctness, especially through official directives, as this causes understandable resentment as it comes across as telling people what to do and think, which no-one likes.
And there's always a tiny minority who take things too far and imagine offence where it doesn't exist.
But they're balanced out by the racists who blow things out of proportion, make things up, and generally use political correctness as a way to defend being racist.

Ideally we'd live in a world where people didn't need to be told to be politically correct, and people could deal with cultural differences in an adult way.

saa

apaynea wrote: »

The point I was trying to make was what we now consider to be racist remarks, in my mind to call someone "Negro" is not racist. Negro in Spanish and Portuguese means Black. So coming from someone that speaks that language is that considered racist?

yeah and queer just means strange...

K-9

TheZohan wrote: »

Here is a very interesting article on the whole Suarez incident, the author has gone into great depth in checking out the cultural differences and nuances when using the word "negrito".

Suarez used the word in a racist manner to get a reaction from Evra. Read the full article, before reading it I thought this whole thing was blown out of proportion, it wasn't.

I didn't know there was video evidence of him repeating the word, news to me and I've followed this case.

I think Liverpool and Suarez are annoyed because from some press reports Evra referred to him as "you South American" and there have been suggestions of a worse term. If that's true, Liverpool should have reported Evra but that would have looked terrible, people would called it petty, so in a way they've been snookered. Plus its perceived by many that he has been found guilty of racism and when you put the stupidity of many football fans in the mix, its a serious thing to have to deal with.

As for the case, if he said it, it is a racial slur, even if he was just giving back what he was getting. The word is often used in conversation in some South American countries and even Spain, a Liverpool player on loan in Spain has used it on Twitter eg. Apparently they were talking in Spanish on the pitch so that might explain him using it. Liverpool seem to think no account was taken of the context.

As for the pc thing, yeah, the Hansen thing was a bit of a joke. It was obvious he meant no harm and was struggling to come up with a pc term. Then you get the twitter frenzy and he has to apologise!

The pc thing can go too far, you also get some who are just anti whatever it is because its seen as pc, kind of a cool and controversial thing to do.

Chuck Stone

I try to live by this little rule.

If you're not sure if something is going to offend someone then STFU.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Some Guy.

Chuck Stone

Oranage2 wrote: »

I don't think words like 'coloured' or 'half caste' are offensive. I dont use them but if I was talking to somebody and they said it then it wouldnt bother me.

Please tell me you're mixed race.

guitarzero wrote: »

On one hand I was thinking that it should be treated as any other slur against someone else. Even if he did say the N word, fine, use the same treatment as if it were something generic such as 'Bastard'.

Oh man, you must be joking. It's not fine at all.

The reality is, a person has a right to be racist. Putting a ban on them isnt going to change there minds about whatever they feel about black folk, hence not actually changing the issue of racism.

They can do whatever the hell they want as long as it stays inside their head. When they start verbally abusing people and expressing their racism by discrimination then they have crossed the line and action should be taken.

I'd still have my reservations as to whether these two are actually any way racist or just plain provoking.

How about both?

I think there has to be a look at the stigma on the N word now. Do people truly say it in a 'Im more superior than you' sense any more or do they say merely because they are black, to just simply provoke?

Does it matter?

guitarzero wrote: »

I think if a black person is at ease in their skin then surely the N word would just roll off them.

Do you see what you're doing there? Essentially you're saying that if a black person is offended by being called '******' then he lacks confidence and he shouldn't allow himself to get wound up.

So your gently shifting responsibility for his reaction to him rather than the racist fool.

FML.

ch750536

sock puppet wrote: »

And? When do its members ever refer to themselves as coloured in conversation?

Quite often judging by the website.

ch750536

sock puppet wrote: »

And? When do its members ever refer to themselves as coloured in conversation?

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2008/11/12/lohan-calls-obama-colored-naacp-says-no-big-deal/#ftnb

"The term ‘colored’ is not derogatory,” Sims continued. “They chose the word ‘colored’ because it was the most positive description commonly used at that time. It’s outdated and antiquated but not offensive.”

sock puppet

ch750536 wrote: »

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2008/11/12/lohan-calls-obama-colored-naacp-says-no-big-deal/#ftnb

"The term ‘colored’ is not derogatory,” Sims continued. “They chose the word ‘colored’ because it was the most positive description commonly used at that time. It’s outdated and antiquated but not offensive.”

So what you're saying is that I was right and it isn't used anymore. Glad that's all cleared up.

Freddie59

The King of Moo wrote: »

Context, context, context.

That's the problem with words, they have no inherent meaning.
They mean different things depending on who's using them, where they're using them, and how they use them.

If someone called me a "paddy" in London in the 70s, it might well have been said with a bit of venom.

If an English person called me "paddy" now, it'd probably be a bit of light-hearted banter that I wouldn't take offence to. I'd be able to tell their intent by the way they said it.

As for Suarez, it seems to me like he was being clearly racist. If, as mentioned in the article above, "negrito" in South America is roughly equivalent to "nigga" as used between black people in the U.S, then Suarez was probably being racist, especially by repeating it.
Imagine a white American sports player calling a black opponent "mah nigga." Do you think that would be affectionate?

Political correctness in general I think was originally a well-intentioned extension of basic manners.
I don't have a problem with being aware of things members of other cultures might be sensitive to, and ensuring I'm polite to them.

Unfortunately, the problems arise when attempts are made to spread political correctness, especially through official directives, as this causes understandable resentment as it comes across as telling people what to do and think, which no-one likes.
And there's always a tiny minority who take things too far and imagine offence where it doesn't exist.
But they're balanced out by the racists who blow things out of proportion, make things up, and generally use political correctness as a way to defend being racist.

Ideally we'd live in a world where people didn't need to be told to be politically correct, and people could deal with cultural differences in an adult way.

The whole thing is stupid.

Lyrics from Kanye West's "Gold Digger":

Now I ain't saying she a gold digger (When I'm Need)
But she ain't messing with no broke niggaz
(She did me wrong)
Now I ain't saying she a gold digger (When I'm need)
but she ain't messing with no broke niggaz

End lyrics.

I never ceases to amaze me how black people go around calling THEMSELVES the N word, then include it in music as 'part of their culture'.:rolleyes:

On a similar note, here in Waterford people are often greeted by 'Well boy/girl". It's being going on for years. AFAIK Waterford and Cork are the only places to use such phraseology.

Some people take offence, but, as far as I'm concerned, this is what we are. We won't be changing it anytime soon to suit anyone else. It is a term of endearment, but, sigh, I am sure there are people out there who will twist it.