Political Correctness

apaynea

There have been a few cases in the news lately regarding players making racist remarks and getting cautioned and even prosecuted because of it. Do people here think that we have gone a bit overboard in regards to what you can and cannot say?? Example: Alan Hansen has today apologised for calling black people "coloured". Is that really so bad? Personally if someone called me a "Paddy" I wouldn't feel offended but I guess thats racist as well?? What if someone has a big nose and you call him "Big Nose" I guess thats racist as well?

This may not be applicable to this forum due to the football content and if so please move it. But I would just like to get peoples general feelings on what can and cannot be said. It seems to me that this is way OTT.

pokertalk

what if a brit called ya a paddy .as for calling someone big nose because they have a big nose has nothing to do with race its just being a dickhead

seanybiker

pokertalk wrote: »

what if a brit called ya a paddy

Meh couldnt give a shyte personally.

pokertalk

seanybiker wrote: »

Meh couldnt give a shyte personally.

prunes can help with that.stick to the topic

apaynea

pokertalk wrote: »

what if a brit called ya a paddy .as for calling someone big nose because they have a big nose has nothing to do with race its just being a dickhead

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it and am sure it happens quite a lot. So if a Paddy call someone from US a Yank thats racist as well?

Oranage2

I don't think words like 'coloured' or 'half caste' are offensive. I dont use them but if I was talking to somebody and they said it then it wouldnt bother me.

seanybiker

Oranage2 wrote: »

I don't think words like 'coloured' or 'half caste' are offensive. I dont use them but if I was talking to somebody and they said it then it wouldnt bother me.

You rather people calling you orange though over been called coloured?

bebostunnah

Do you think a war will occur between those on the dole and those who work?

Oranage2

seanybiker wrote: »

You rather people calling you orange though over been called coloured?

Ha, a little unusal if someone called me coloured but not offensive.

guitarzero

I think the whole Terry/Suarez thing is ridiculous. Has it even been proven they actually made racist statements?

On one hand I was thinking that it should be treated as any other slur against someone else. Even if he did say the N word, fine, use the same treatment as if it were something generic such as 'Bastard'.

The reality is, a person has a right to be racist. Putting a ban on them isnt going to change there minds about whatever they feel about black folk, hence not actually changing the issue of racism. I'd still have my reservations as to whether these two are actually any way racist or just plain provoking.
I think there has to be a look at the stigma on the N word now. Do people truly say it in a 'Im more superior than you' sense any more or do they say merely because they are black, to just simply provoke?
Also, freedom of speech. Thats a delicate one because to ban the use of ANY word is simply mind policing and government wielding far to much control. Once that has a hold in the heads of people it can grow like a seed and before we know it we have a wee authoritarian voice in our heads giving us the red light as whether we can say what we feel. Holocaust deniers will testify on that.

On the other hand, if racist comments are dismissed then it could escalate within the context of football bringing in a lot more crap than a footballer getting an 8 match ban. Its pretty embarrassing when a parts of a crowd start making monkey chants, who knows how far it would go if it were given a blind eye.

In short, I dunno.

apaynea

guitarzero wrote: »

I think the whole Terry/Suarez thing is ridiculous. Has it even been proven they actually made racist statements?

Suposedly he said the word "Negro", I am not sure if I am allowed to write that here but again I don't think there is such a big deal with that. I have lived in England and been called "Paddy" many times and it totally didn't bother me.

KeithAFC

I got a feeling about political correctness. I hate it. It causes us to lie silently instead of saying what we think.
Hal Holbrook

myflipflops

guitarzero wrote: »

I think the whole Terry/Suarez thing is ridiculous. Has it even been proven they actually made racist statements?
o.

An independant panel investigated the Suarez incident and made their recommendations to the FA.

The full report has not been released yet.

I;m not sure how cracking down on people making racist comments can be called political correctness to be honest.

guitarzero

apaynea wrote: »

guitarzero wrote: »

I think the whole Terry/Suarez thing is ridiculous. Has it even been proven they actually made racist statements?

Suposedly he said the word "Negro", I am not sure if I am allowed to write that here but again I don't think there is such a big deal with that. I have lived in England and been called "Paddy" many times and it totally didn't bother me.

Apparently Suarez said 'Negrito' which is spanish for 'little black fellah'. It almost sounds like an endearing term. I think it boils down to stigma. The stigma of paddy doesnt hold the same weight as the N word. I was wondering if the N word has the same stigma today as it once did considering society has changed so much.

If someone called me paddy I'd probably laugh, simply cuz the provoker must be fairly divorced from reality to think that me, or 99% of Irish are gonna get all roiled up over it.

I think if a black person is at ease in their skin then surely the N word would just roll off them. I think its how you identify with yourself, your skin colour and your heritage. Like, if an Irish lad felt inferior for being Irish and someone called him paddy then maybe he would react due to how much he identifies with aspects of being Irish, mostly negative aspects.

apaynea

myflipflops wrote: »

I;m not sure how cracking down on people making racist comments can be called political correctness to be honest.

The point I was trying to make was what we now consider to be racist remarks, in my mind to call someone "Negro" is not racist. Negro in Spanish and Portuguese means Black. So coming from someone that speaks that language is that considered racist?

myflipflops

apaynea wrote: »

The point I was trying to make was what we now consider to be racist remarks, in my mind to call someone "Negro" is not racist. Negro in Spanish and Portuguese means Black. So coming from someone that speaks that language is that considered racist?

So referring to somebody solely by the colour of their skin in the midst of a football match cannot be considered racist?

The fact is at context is key. Referring to somebody in the manner that Suarez did does not look good considering the environment.

guitarzero

myflipflops wrote: »

So referring to somebody solely by the colour of their skin in the midst of a football match cannot be considered racist?

The fact is at context is key. Referring to somebody in the manner that Suarez did does not look good considering the environment.

How is 'Negrito' - little black fellah or Negro racist?

apaynea

myflipflops wrote: »

So referring to somebody solely by the colour of their skin in the midst of a football match cannot be considered racist?.

Thats actually a good point! I agree that we should not generalise people but I just think that society is choosing which words we can and cannot say! So if another player calls someone a "B***rd"? Although its not racist it is still offending towards the person, probably more so than to insult their ethnicity! But thats accepted because its not racist!

Andrew Flexing

White people get cold their lips go blue
White people turn brown in the sun
White people turn red in too much sun
White people go black and blue when hit hard

Yet black people are 'coloured'???

apaynea

Or to call someone a poofter or fag is accepted but to call someone a negro or paddy is not. Surely there is something wrong there? What would happen if an Irish player playing in the EPL claimed he was racially abused by being called a "Paddy". Its would be laughed off and nothing would ever come of it I am sure.

Snakeblood

It's getting so you can't call a spade a you know what any more. :mad:

up for anything

Oranage2 wrote: »

I don't think words like 'coloured' or 'half caste' are offensive. I dont use them but if I was talking to somebody and they said it then it wouldnt bother me.

Those words are offensive and they have been for a long time. As with most words it's down to the intent with which they are used.

I was called a half caste and a white nigger when I was only 11. It was only the once and by an ignorant, little yob of 15 who thought he was all that riding a chopper. I'm sorry now I didn't retaliate by calling him fatso.

It hurt at the time. It still stings. The fact that I can remember the incident perfectly after 40 years and I remember the look in that little bastard's eyes as he said it while he cycled nonchalantly by me means that to me it was definitely offensive. He wasn't shouting out sweet nothings in order to court me. :mad::mad:

guitarzero

up for anything wrote: »

Those words are offensive and they have been for a long time. As with most words it's down to the intent with which they are used.

I was called a half caste and a white nigger when I was only 11. It was only the once and by an ignorant, little yob of 15 who thought he was all that riding a chopper. I'm sorry now I didn't retaliate by calling him fatso.

It hurt at the time. It still stings. The fact that I can remember the incident perfectly after 40 years and I remember the look in that little bastard's eyes as he said it while he cycled nonchalantly by me means that to me it was definitely offensive. He wasn't shouting out sweet nothings in order to court me. :mad::mad:

Can I ask why you were so mad?

TwoShedsJackson

apaynea wrote: »

Personally if someone called me a "Paddy" I wouldn't feel offended but I guess thats racist as well??

You'd be surprised, I was on the end of a racist rant from an African guy in the mid 90s, before we even had a lot of people immigrating here, he started calling me Paddy at the end of every sentence and it was offensive. Apparently we were the most racist people he had ever encountered, probably just as well if he went home before 1998

Someone can call you a Paddy, messing about, and you know they are messing or mean no real harm by it, but when this guy did it, it was just a replacement phrase for 'Irish <unt' and the way he did it would have offended any Irish person, guaranteed.

Gyalist

It's interesting to me how suddenly everyone is an expert on the use of negro, negrito and negrita without having the sightest clue of the socio-political context of the origins or intent of the words.

up for anything

guitarzero wrote: »

Can I ask why you were so mad?

Because although at that time I actually didn't understand the names he flung at me never having been subject to any abuse verbal or otherwise. I knew the intent was mean, nasty and to hurt and coming from someone who who pretty much a stranger and whom I'd never had any interaction with he had no reason to be nasty to me.

I never told my parents because I knew they would be upset but would have no recourse. How I processed that I don't know, but it was true.

Ellis Dee

I would have no trouble with calling someone "coloured", but what would be the point? Aren't we all coloured? I'm a sort of pasty white with brown blotches, blue eyes, white hair, red neck ---:rolleyes:

I suppose the problem is that the only people who get called coloured are those of one particular shade, and it is usually meant to be disrespectful.:(

Showbiz people and professional footballers are amply rewarded for their work and it is not unreasonable to expect them to be a little careful with their language and reflect on the fact that, rightly or wrongly, they are seen as role models by some people.:):)

ShadowHearth

****, I love being white....

Ellis Dee

Snakeblood wrote: »

It's getting so you can't call a spade a you know what any more. :mad:

Quite wrong. You can call a spade a spade, but preferably when you are talking about a garden tool or a suite of cards.:cool:

However, if you are using one of the many terms meant to denigrate and humiliate people with black skin, you are being a nasty cnut, deliberately insulting and offensive and, quite rightly, could be brought to book for it under our laws. :rolleyes:

I was once addressed as "Paddy" by a middle-aged Englishman I didn't know. This was in Sweden, with several Swedish people present. I looked around as though to see if there was anyone else beside or behind me that he was talking to and then said to him: "Sorry, my name isn't Paddy. My friends call me (first name), and you can call me Mr.

---

". Both he and his wife looked like they'd been bitch-slapped as several Swedes sniggered visibly.:eek:

Oranage2

up for anything wrote: »

Those words are offensive and they have been for a long time. As with most words it's down to the intent with which they are used.

I was called a half caste and a white nigger when I was only 11. It was only the once and by an ignorant, little yob of 15 who thought he was all that riding a chopper. I'm sorry now I didn't retaliate by calling him fatso.

It hurt at the time. It still stings. The fact that I can remember the incident perfectly after 40 years and I remember the look in that little bastard's eyes as he said it while he cycled nonchalantly by me means that to me it was definitely offensive. He wasn't shouting out sweet nothings in order to court me. :mad::mad:

I've been called half caste and it never bothered me - If I see a mixed race person I'd describe him/her as half or mixed. As what guitar zero was saying you are what you are.

yeppydeppy

This should be shown to everyone in the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg

Toby Take a Bow

guitarzero wrote: »

apaynea wrote: »

Apparently Suarez said 'Negrito' which is spanish for 'little black fellah'. It almost sounds like an endearing term.

Hmmmm. Almost, but not quite. I think 'negrito' is considered an offensive term. That's what you've got to consider it in light of. Doesn't matter whether you personally don't find 'paddy' or whatever offensive.

Snakeblood wrote: »

It's getting so you can't call a spade a you know what any more. :mad:

It's political correctness GONE MADE!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmkHLiZMJeU

ch750536

Funny thing was that Alan Hansens comments were correct, he wasn't talking about black people he was talking about non white people. The accepted term for this is 'coloured' people, as a group. How many would have complained if he had said 'non white'? More I reckon.

Captain Darling

Political correctness is an industry. It'll come to the stage where we wont be able to describe someone according to their race, gender, religion, colour, ethnic background etc without being accused of being politically incorrect.

im invisible

apaynea wrote: »

personally if someone called me a "Paddy" I wouldn't feel offended but I guess thats racist as well?? What if someone has a big nose and you call him "Big Nose" I guess thats racist as well?

anti-semite!

Captain Darling

im invisible wrote: »

anti-semite!

Anti-anti-semite!

pragmatic1

I think overall PC has been a positive force in the lives of many people. However, its being abused and used as a weapon in some cases. This only stifles discussion and is dangerous imo.

tigger123

Captain Darling wrote: »

Political correctness is an industry. It'll come to the stage where we wont be able to describe someone according to their race, gender, religion, colour, ethnic background etc without being accused of being politically incorrect.

How on earth is political correctness an industry?

Being PC is an extension of good manners, and treating people with a bit of respect, its that simple.

It's funny, ya rarely hear any minorities giving out people being pc, its always white males, it really says a lot.

harrythehat

PC has gone too far in places, for example not being able to have a crib at the hospital, but footballers have to be responsible because they are role models for kids all over the world.

Captain Darling

tigger123 wrote: »

How on earth is political correctness an industry?

Being PC is an extension of good manners, and treating people with a bit of respect, its that simple.

It's funny, ya rarely hear any minorities giving out people being pc, its always white males, it really says a lot.

Its an industry in so far as that it can be used in the work place as a tool for unscrupulous employees. I've seen the card used in my workplace with a few people to get out of work or claim that they have been discriminated against.

Good manners is good manners and treating people with respect is the same, its not political correctness. Dignity in the workplace is one thinig, using political correctness is another.

What you describe there is bullsh1t, so get off the fcuking moral high horse for fcuks sakes. Fcuking bleeding heart society. :rolleyes:

Einhard

tigger123 wrote: »

How on earth is political correctness an industry?

Being PC is an extension of good manners, and treating people with a bit of respect, its that simple.

It's funny, ya rarely hear any minorities giving out people being pc, its always white males, it really says a lot.

PC originated as en extension of good manners, but sometimes it goes so far that it manages to offend everyone save those people using it.

I remember a guy on Joe Duffy a few years back talking about a crib that had been removed from a hospital. He was Muslim and couldn't understand why the crib was removed because he didn't know anyone amongst his group of friends and acquaintances who had any difficulty with it. But some PC person in the hospital decreed, unilaterally, that Muslims would be offended and removed the crib. This Muslim guy rightfully pointed out that this would cause a backlash, and that Muslims would, unfairly, be targeted for criticism and condemnation as a result. So...as a result of one stupid PC decision, the two groups involved were offended. The only people satisfied with the action were the very people who took it. I fail to see how that could be described as an extension of good manners.

Don't get me wrong. There's an awful lot that's great about PC, and many of those who object to it do so because it cramps their racist/bigoted style. But, now and then, it goes far too far, and the Hansen incident is an example of this.

TheZohanS

guitarzero wrote: »

I think the whole Terry/Suarez thing is ridiculous. Has it even been proven they actually made racist statements?

Here is a very interesting article on the whole Suarez incident, the author has gone into great depth in checking out the cultural differences and nuances when using the word "negrito".

Suarez used the word in a racist manner to get a reaction from Evra. Read the full article, before reading it I thought this whole thing was blown out of proportion, it wasn't.

sock puppet

ch750536 wrote: »

Funny thing was that Alan Hansens comments were correct, he wasn't talking about black people he was talking about non white people. The accepted term for this is 'coloured' people

The only place I know of where coloured is used to refer to non-white people is South Africa where it means mixed race.

Kevin Duffy

A worthwhile debate OP, had you not put it on a shaky footing by starting with that title. Calling someone a racist name, in the way that Saurez has been found guilty of, is just racist, it has nothing to do with being un-PC.

The reaction of so many people in football and in particular the LFC players wearing the shirts the other night, is not suprising, but is dismaying. Suarez didn't engage in light-hearted banter, he racially abused someone. I don't care who he's played with in the past, or who his grandfather was or any of the other pathetic mitigation he's offered, he knew what he was saying was bigoted abuse and he's been rightly punished.
Football is not some oasis from normal society, racism has as little place there as it should in the rest of the world and I hope Suarez' punishment makes football in general think hard about its behaviour.

ch750536

sock puppet wrote: »

The only place I know of where coloured is used to refer to non-white people is South Africa where it means mixed race.

http://www.naacp.org
Best tell them, they are based the US.
'National Association for the Advancement of Colored People'

eviltimeban

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

guitarzero wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmkHLiZMJeU

I love Stewart Lee! Totally agree with what he says!

nlgbbbblth

ch750536 wrote: »

http://www.naacp.org
Best tell them, they are based the US.
'National Association for the Advancement of Colored People'

Are you a member?

up for anything

Oranage2 wrote: »

I've been called half caste and it never bothered me - If I see a mixed race person I'd describe him/her as half or mixed. As what guitar zero was saying you are what you are.

That's you. Different strokes and all that.

ch750536

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Are you a member?

No.

44leto

I am very for political correctness and I believe it was a force for good. I remember when these clearly offensive, demeaning racist and sexist terms were bandied about in normal conversation.

If you want to see what it was like watch the excellent BeeB series "Life on Mars" words like N#gg#r, puff, fag, Paki, Mick were just everyday conversation, that surely would not have been good for the esteem or dignity of minorities.

sock puppet

ch750536 wrote: »

http://www.naacp.org
Best tell them, they are based the US.
'National Association for the Advancement of Colored People'

And? When do its members ever refer to themselves as coloured in conversation?