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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #2162
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    This tax should be levied on ESB bills as an increased government levy. If it was just added as an extra Eur17 per bill no-one would even notice (and they would just have to pay it). Even when it increases to Eur700, it would still only amount to a little over Eur100 per bill which is still easily manageable. At that level it would sort out 7% of the gap in the exchequer position which is a small start in the required process.

    What about when they want to impose the large increases, as they have planned? It would still not be a fair or "equitable" charge. Another part of Enda's election campaign that was forgotten about in their rush to celebrate victory. Why are they so afraid to tax high earners and the mega rich in an "equitable" way.


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    #2163
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    galwayrush wrote: »
    Choice? Selfish stupid people for losing their jobs? Stupid self employed people with no income because when there is no work?(there is no state help for them. ) Selfish people prioritising things like food / heating ahead of paying a property tax.. Yeah, shame on them...:rolleyes:

    How come some people don't have those problems even though they get the same support? Or maybe you are telling me that every single person unemployed person is in that boat?????

    Maybe it's the spending habits of some that are preventing them paying the basics / necessities? The people who never have anything to contribute to society, but have plenty of requirements. Yeah, shame on them alright....: :rolleyes:


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    #2164
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    When the Government stops the waste, e.g. giving chief pen pushers 6 figure golden handshakes and pensions , i won't mind paying the charge.


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    #2165
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    lividduck wrote: »
    Are you nuts?
    its a household tax on owners, not tenants renting, or local authority tenants.
    How would you figure out whose utility bills to put it on?
    You get people who are paying it a bad name.

    I disagree with the logic of the application in that respect. Occupiers should pay this tax.

    It's actually unfair on tenants at the moment. As a landlord I have levied a rent increase of Eur200 this year which I otherwise wouldn't have. I don't like saying it here cos it tends to drive people mad, but it's fact.

    I get Eur100 net out of the increase after tax, which I am paying as their household charge. The fact that they are getting hit for double the charge is genuinely unfair as far as I am concerned, but c'est la vie.

    If it was just levied the way I suggested, they would only pay the same as everyone else.

    If local authority tenants deserve an exemption, it cud be granted via increased support with their bills.


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    #2166
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    How come some people don't have those problems even though they get the same support? Or maybe you are telling me that every single person unemployed person is in that boat?????

    Maybe it's the spending habits of some that are preventing them paying the basics / necessities? The people who never have anything to contribute to society, but have plenty of requirements. Yeah, shame on them alright....: :rolleyes:

    I mentioned self employed people and people who lost their jobs.
    A self employed person is not entitled to any state aid if they have no work, so please explain how they can manage such stealth taxes ( for the good of the country of course) when there is no income?


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    #2167
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    lividduck wrote: »
    Are you nuts?
    its a household tax on owners, not tenants renting, or local authority tenants.
    How would you figure out whose utility bills to put it on?
    You get people who are paying it a bad name.

    Isn't it supposed to be a tax to pay for services? Why should tenants be exempt?


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    #2168
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    Slick50 wrote: »
    What about when they want to impose the large increases, as they have planned? It would still not be a fair or "equitable" charge. Another part of Enda's election campaign that was forgotten about in their rush to celebrate victory. Why are they so afraid to tax high earners and the mega rich in an "equitable" way.

    Because if you keep increasing taxes on the higher earners (who have already taken a hammering over the past few years), they will take their entire income, wealth, jobs and entrepreneurship out of this country. Then you are really looking at a third world situation.

    This has been explained so many times, and yet the message doesn't seem to get through. They are not staying in Ireland for the weather, there needs to be some incentive - making marginal rates much higher here than in competitor countries really won't help at all.


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    #2169
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    This is the amount held in personal savings accounts between banks, credit unions and state savings.

    €100,000,000,000.

    How much of these deposits belong to directors and owners of large companies that owe NAMA or banks millions?

    If it belongs to people who have had the foresight to save a few bob for themselves, it sort of contradicts the accusation that we all went mad borrowing, that we're all to blame for our economic woes.


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    #2170
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,577 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    I think Donal is just wumming here.
    Either that or he's Sly Phil.


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    #2171
    Hijpo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    lividduck wrote: »
    Are you nuts?
    its a household tax on owners, not tenants renting, or local authority tenants.
    How would you figure out whose utility bills to put it on?
    You get people who are paying it a bad name.

    I disagree with the logic of the application in that respect. Occupiers should pay this tax.

    It's actually unfair on tenants at the moment. As a landlord I have levied a rent increase of Eur200 this year which I otherwise wouldn't have. I don't like saying it here cos it tends to drive people mad, but it's fact.

    I get Eur100 net out of the increase after tax, which I am paying as their household charge. The fact that they are getting hit for double the charge is genuinely unfair as far as I am concerned, but c'est la vie.

    If it was just levied the way I suggested, they would only pay the same as everyone else.

    If local authority tenants deserve an exemption, it cud be granted via increased support with their bills.

    Give me 100 euro to pay my way, you dont seem to have problem with others paying for other peoples arrears so i presume you wont have a problem paying for mine.


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    #2172
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Slick50 wrote: »
    How much of these deposits belong to directors and owners of large companies that owe NAMA or banks millions?

    If it belongs to people who have had the foresight to save a few bob for themselves, it sort of contradicts the accusation that we all went mad borrowing, that we're all to blame for our economic woes.

    Or some legal eagles ripping the country off with those stupidly expensive tribunals?
    Easy to save a few quid if you're for eg a government advisor on a 6 figure salary .


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    #2173
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    galwayrush wrote: »
    I mentioned self employed people and people who lost their jobs.
    A self employed person is not entitled to any state aid if they have no work, so please explain how they can manage such stealth taxes ( for the good of the country of course) when there is no income?

    I accept that is a difficult predicament. These people (relatively few compared with the overall population we are referring to) should have payment plans in place in respect of all their obligations (MARP type stuff). This would give them time to get back on their feet and then pay off their arrears at a nominal interest rate (or possibly without any penalty).


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    #2174
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    Hijpo wrote: »
    Give me 100 euro to pay my way, you dont seem to have problem with others paying for other peoples arrears so i presume you wont have a problem paying for mine.

    No hassle. You send me Eur200, and I'll pay your Eur100 bill with it.


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    #2175
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    Hijpo wrote: »
    Give me 100 euro to pay my way, you dont seem to have problem with others paying for other peoples arrears so i presume you wont have a problem paying for mine.

    He wants it to be €1000 instead of €100 now,not sure Bishop Donal is trolling or delusional.


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    #2176
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    zerks wrote: »
    He wants it to be €1000 instead of €100 now,not sure Bishop Donal is trolling or delusional.

    I am not trolling. I simply believe that this country needs to start making progress. We have an Eur18bn gap and the vast majority of people just don't seem to have a vision as to what might happen in this country if that isn't closed.

    If there is this much hassle over a Eur100 charge that yields Eur160m, I would far prefer to have seen a much much larger charge introduced so that at least the debate might relate to something that's actually meaningful.

    It's just my point of view, I'm sorry if it doesn't suit you.


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    #2177
    UsernameInUse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭UsernameInUse


    The only people that have no problems paying this are the people that just don't understand economics. If you tax the people more, they have less to spend in the economy. What the government should be doing is putting the money back into the pockets of the people to spend.

    This tax even defies the ridiculousness of Keynesianism which dictates that government spend, spend, spend. The reason it contradicts this is because Kenny and Co are taking your money away to give to the gamblers in the banking industry. This is the definition of corporatism, as Capitalism dictates that what you earn, you keep - and what you lose, you lose. Enjoy your serfdom. The feudal system hasn't gone away you know...


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    #2178
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    I am not trolling. I simply believe that this country needs to start making progress. We have an Eur18bn gap and the vast majority of people just don't seem to have a vision as to what might happen in this country if that isn't closed.

    If there is this much hassle over a Eur100 charge that yields Eur160m, I would far prefer to have seen a much much larger charge introduced so that at least the debate might relate to something that's actually meaningful.

    It's just my point of view, I'm sorry if it doesn't suit you.

    I do agree we need to sort out our deficit, but the Government should stop the waste as a first step.


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    #2179
    Hijpo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    I am not trolling. I simply believe that this country needs to start making progress. We have an Eur18bn gap and the vast majority of people just don't seem to have a vision as to what might happen in this country if that isn't closed.

    If there is this much hassle over a Eur100 charge that yields Eur160m, I would far prefer to have seen a much much larger charge introduced so that at least the debate might relate to something that's actually meaningful.

    It's just my point of view, I'm sorry if it doesn't suit you.

    Aslong as people are willing to give and give the government will never change its expenditure. Its the easy wasy out. They only way they will change is by forcing them to act, just like they are trying to force people into paying the household tax. I would like to see cuts to needless spending, BIG cuts, increased taxation being the very last option. After that, i would be willing to pay the household charge because then i would be happy that its a necessary charge.


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    #2180
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    Because if you keep increasing taxes on the higher earners (who have already taken a hammering over the past few years), they will take their entire income, wealth, jobs and entrepreneurship out of this country. Then you are really looking at a third world situation.

    We all have/are taking a hammering. But tax those better able to afford it more, and they'll leave. Do you think there will be no one left that would gladly fill their positions. It is expensive to uproot an entire enterprise and move, not to mention re establishing themselves in a new location.

    But it's not a problem that so many "plebs" have to emigrate.
    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    This has been explained so many times, and yet the message doesn't seem to get through. They are not staying in Ireland for the weather, there needs to be some incentive - making marginal rates much higher here than in competitor countries really won't help at all.

    What competing countries? Are these the ones you've been citing as justification for taxing peoples homes. They won't make money, or live tax free there either.


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    #2181
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    galwayrush wrote: »
    I do agree we need to sort out our deficit, but the Government should stop the waste as a first step.

    and I agree that the elimination of waste should also be a joint first step!!
    along with
    1.) a broad based property (actually preferably broad based wealth) tax,
    2.) broad based decrease in tax credits and IT bands,
    3.) meaningful reductions in all public service salaries (and double the normal rate for politicians)
    4.) meaningful reductions in Welfare support (probably 20%) and ideally time limits on certain supports.

    BTW, to appease you, I would be in favour of the introduction of the same supports for self employed people who have a business that fails as for any employee.


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    #2182
    UsernameInUse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭UsernameInUse


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    I am not trolling. I simply believe that this country needs to start making progress. We have an Eur18bn gap and the vast majority of people just don't seem to have a vision as to what might happen in this country if that isn't closed.

    If there is this much hassle over a Eur100 charge that yields Eur160m, I would far prefer to have seen a much much larger charge introduced so that at least the debate might relate to something that's actually meaningful.

    It's just my point of view, I'm sorry if it doesn't suit you.

    The government need to cut to slash the deficit, not tax. And by "deficit", I mean the money borrowed to run government services over the years, not bankers which Capitalism dictates.

    Taxing is contributing to the problem. Look at the 750+ quangos we have in this country. Lobbyists, during the Ahern years lined up on Kildare Street for a bit of the action - any old issue was seen to by throwing money at it.

    "Water is unsafe" - no problem, set up a new quango called IWS.
    "But what about the hedgehogs down the rabbit holes in Roscommon? We should count how many frogs we have in Loch Derg" - no problem, here's five million a year. It's total madness.

    1. Cut the deficit by abolishing hundreds of quangos and the one's we need right now (can be phased out over time) or merged with others.
    2. Privatise RTE - These crooks are given tax money as well as being allowed to advertise giving them a handy little war chest they can use to purchase licenses to broadcast football matches (we can see all these games on BBC for free btw), pay millions to air programmes already obtainable on SKY or give our under-performing, over paid hosts like the leech Pay Kenny, Joe Duffy or Finuchane a raise on top of their €400,000 a year.
    3. Deregulation - allow the people of Ireland to set up alternatives to the government services already in place.

    All this can be accomplished without taxing the people and further destroying our economy. We must abolish the income tax too.


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    #2183
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    Slick50 wrote: »
    We all have/are taking a hammering. But tax those better able to afford it more, and they'll leave. Do you think there will be no one left that would gladly fill their positions. It is expensive to uproot an entire enterprise and move, not to mention re establishing themselves in a new location.

    But it's not a problem that so many "plebs" have to emigrate.



    What competing countries? Are these the ones you've been citing as justification for taxing peoples homes. They won't make money, or live tax free there either.

    Higher income earners have taken a far greater increase in taxation than lower income earners over the past four years. That is fact.

    Higher income earners in Ireland are now far more closely aligned with average european tax rates than lower income earners. If you further increase their rates, the temptation to move their centre of business increases. Moving an enterprise in many cases is easy now - the bigger earners are often intellectual assets at this stage.

    The competing countries are all of those with a lower marginal rate of tax (and if we keep increasing it the way some people would like, there will be quite a few of them soon). So yes, they won't live there tax free, but they will pay less tax (and probably enjoy warmer summers and colder winters - how good is that!!!)


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    #2184
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    Mickey Dazzler wrote: »
    Just paid the bastarding thing!!

    No.

    You see, some of us have principles and self respect, and an aversion to funding the lifestyles of the corrupt and famous.

    And we don't like lies, liars and their parasite cronies.

    “It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home” – Enda Kenny, 1994


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    #2185
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    If they're not going to write to every house telling us we owe a €100, when they come looking to take you to court could you play dumb and say you don't listen to Irish radio/watch Irish TV or read irish newspapers and didn't know anything about it?


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    #2186
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    jack presley wrote: »
    If they're not going to write to every house telling us we owe a €100, when they come looking to take you to court could you play dumb and say you don't listen to Irish radio/watch Irish TV or read irish newspapers and didn't know anything about it?

    Yep, and if you kill someone, you can just say you didn't realise murder was a crime.


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    #2187
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    jack presley wrote: »
    If they're not going to write to every house telling us we owe a €100, when they come looking to take you to court could you play dumb and say you don't listen to Irish radio/watch Irish TV or read irish newspapers and didn't know anything about it?
    Trouble is they will say ignorance is no defence in law.
    I am paying because 100 quids aint worth the hassle
    now if that 100 was to turn into a grand well thats a different question.


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    #2188
    Flex
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Flex


    The Quadratic Equation wrote: »
    No.

    You see, some of us have principles and self respect, and an aversion to funding the lifestyles of the corrupt and famous.

    And we don't like lies, liars and their parasite cronies.

    “It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home” – Enda Kenny, 1994

    So are you also going to stop paying PAYE and VAT since there's no way of telling where its being spent?


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    #2189
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,577 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    black francis wrote: »
    Yep, and if you kill someone, you can just say you didn't realise murder was a crime.

    Och sure an odd auld politician wouldn't be missed.
    What about Enda being used by the other E.U. leaders as the tea-break entertainment ? The knob.


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    #2190
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    lividduck wrote: »
    Trouble is they will say ignorance is no defence in law.
    I am paying because 100 quids aint worth the hassle
    now if that 100 was to turn into a grand well thats a different question.

    Actually you'll find it's much easier for anyone with principles and integrity to make a stand against, and refuse to pay €100 and the late payment penalties, than it is against €1,000 plus the penalties, and it will be €1,000 soon. If most people would at least hold off untill March 2013, like Thatcher's Poll tax, this tax would fail.


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    #2191
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    Flex wrote: »
    So are you also going to stop paying PAYE and VAT since there's no way of telling where its being spent?

    No I always paid that, and always will. Then you have to draw a line somewhere and say, enough is enough.

    We were also assured in the past the reason we always had to pay higher taxes and stealth taxes in Ireland was that they INCLUDED things like household services and water. This was lies.

    Every cent of this €100 euro will be given to secret boldholders to pay for their cocktails on their tax free Caymen Island Beach.

    Who are these bondholders ? Why are they being kept secret ? E.g. Is Bertie Ahern one ? Is Seanie one ? Is Fingers one ? Is Enda's brother one ?


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