LETS ALL LAUGH AT PEOPLE WITH DEPRESSION!!

opinion guy

CDfm wrote: »

I thought about that by the way before posting. There is a whole lot of technical language that went with it that scared me and I spent a lot of time being miserable needlessly.

So when my friend said " I think you have got depression" and lets do something about it I was fairly drained and went along with it. It wasn't a case of me "not being myself" -this was me.

I look at it now as being a very ordinary thing to do but being in a spot to have the emotional support and professional help for me was pure luck. I just needed to be very open minded about it as it does take a bit of commitment.I just wanted a better quality of life and I look at that as being a choice.

Of course, I wish it all hadn't happened but once I knew the responsibility was mine to get help.

Ok cool.
That's very different from 'manning up and getting on with it'. Is it not ?
Also to note - there are alot of people who can't come out if even with support. There are degrees of this blackness

CDfm

opinion guy wrote: »

Ok cool.
That's very different from 'manning up and getting on with it'. Is it not ?

Also to note - there are alot of people who can't come out if even with support. There are degrees of this blackness

Its a big leap but as DeV said in the OP-Talk to someone. Anyone.

cloud493

DeVore wrote: »

I think it's an unfortunate choice of words.

Cloud, that's a great achievement, come on mate don't do that, don't run down your achievements. That's my turf

DeV.

Thanks Just trying to convince myself it is. And I wouldn't say talk to 'anyone' someone suitable, definitely. Some people are terribly intolerant of talking about this, or even acknowledging its existence.

DeVore

opinion guy wrote: »

Fair enough. I just find the whole 'man up' sentiment insulting. I mean here we are on a depression thread where people are talking of their YEARS of hellish torment they have been fighting with every ounce of strength - where its been said about once every page that its terrible when people tell you to 'snap out of it' or 'man up' and what do we have on page 54 ? Somebody telling us it was no big deal and he manned up and got on with after a coffee and a chat and deciding to learn a few life skills.

No.
Just, no.

I agree it was a hamfisted way of stating his point but I dont think it was malicious. The fact is that people think this way, even sufferers. My own father wont accept he has depression despite being on Lexapro!

The point of this thread is to discuss attitudes, stigma, shame, misunderstandings etc. Confront them head on but in a non-aggressive manner. We wont do that if we all just agree with each other.


I've heard much worse said including my personal favourite, "Have you tried... you know, not being depressed". Imagine if you said "Have you tried, you know, *not* having cancer? "

DeV.

DeVore

Professional > Anyone > No one.



DeV.

EUSSR

It's a shame depression is so misunderstood. This will always fuel unwanted stigma. Hopefully in the near future, research will move away from outdated theories of causation, and into the realm of real genuine understanding. Depression isn't statistically one of the biggest killers for no reason:eek:

It's a very serious problem, and should be treated as such. More funding should go into this area over road deaths. As bad as that sounds. Too many people commit suicide in this country to just brush the issue under the carpet.

ItsAWindUp

EUSSR wrote: »

It's a shame depression is so misunderstood. This will always fuel unwanted stigma. Hopefully in the near future, research will move away from outdated theories of causation, and into the realm of real genuine understanding. Depression isn't statistically one of the biggest killers for no reason:eek:

It's a very serious problem, and should be treated as such. More funding should go into this area over road deaths. As bad as that sounds. Too many people commit suicide in this country to just brush the issue under the carpet.

I think the attitude will change. Part of it stems from the old Catholic Ireland attitude of keeping problems and emotions under wraps, same principle regarding the stigma of alcoholism I think really. Alcoholism has become more of an open topic that people can talk about nowadays, and I think, hopefully, that depression and other mental issues will go the same way, it'll just take time.

candy-gal1

DeVore wrote: »

I agree it was a hamfisted way of stating his point but I dont think it was malicious. The fact is that people think this way, even sufferers. My own father wont accept he has depression despite being on Lexapro!

The point of this thread is to discuss attitudes, stigma, shame, misunderstandings etc. Confront them head on but in a non-aggressive manner. We wont do that if we all just agree with each other.


I've heard much worse said including my personal favourite, "Have you tried... you know, not being depressed". Imagine if you said "Have you tried, you know, *not* having cancer? "

DeV.

okay, and slate me all you want after this as i know its not an appropriate response for this thread, but being depressed has nothing to do with having cancer, at least no matter how depressed/down/sad/dead inside etc you may feel your still alive, you still will hopefully get to live another day, and make the most of it, appreciating what you have.

cloud493

I see where your coming from by this remark. But you can't just snap out of clinical depression, as it were. Its not something you can just 'cheer up from' if you could, people would, I know I would.

Wattle

EUSSR wrote: »

I would argue they should be the last resort. Depression is complex, researchers aren't even certain of the underlying mechanics of Depression yet. This is open to serious abuse, because recent data suggests the long term outcomes of anti depressant medication is questionable.

The only way to quell the stigma associated with mental illness, is to remove the poor image associated with it. As one notable Academic researcher put it "Garbage in, Garbage out". This is the case when you consider these drugs applied to mild and moderately depressed people at least.

Most of the very major psychological associations are lobbying to have this reductionist model changed. This I believe, will lead to massively reduced stigma for the mentally ill over the next 100 years or so. These drugs are largely responsible for the undue stigma, in my own humble opinion.

Oh I've absolutely no doubt that the pharmaceutical industry has taken advantage. In my case after a bit of trial and error I got the right combination of drugs. I'm still on them 5 years later and I may have to take them for the rest of my life. I'm completely ok with that. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

On the other hand I've known deeply depressed people who will not take medication because they believe that is the first step to labelling themselves as mad.

CDfm

Isn't that such a shame.I don't take medication would if I needed to.

cloud493 wrote: »

I see where your coming from by this remark. But you can't just snap out of clinical depression, as it were. Its not something you can just 'cheer up from' if you could, people would, I know I would.

I couldn't just snap out of it but I also could not do nothing. I didn't have the skills myself.

And I am a bright guy, reasonable job, 2 kids and people depend on me.

DeVore wrote: »

I agree it was a hamfisted way of stating his point

I would say gauche is a bit more apt

stupidusername

Just throwing in an update on myself as promised.

I called into my psychs office on Thursday to see if I could get seen by my psych asap to review my meds and to plead for counselling. The secretary looked at me like a piece of **** because I was there without an appointment. but anyway, my doctor has left. so yet again i'll be turned over to a new one. and as I hadn't an appointment the earliest time I could get seen is next week, on Thursday, so I took it.

I honestly don't expect anything. I come away from there each time frustrated. I'm hoping to have a real discussion about what's best for me in terms of my meds, and to ask to be bumped up on the waiting list for counselling. but all any doctor has ever said to me about meds is that I need to be on them. they won't even discuss coming off them. but I'll just have to see. been feeling better since Christmas anyway, so the 3 bad weeks I had may have been a side effect of upping the dose a few weeks previous.

DeVore

candy-gal1 wrote: »

okay, and slate me all you want after this as i know its not an appropriate response for this thread, but being depressed has nothing to do with having cancer,

Who said it had?? *bangs head off desk*

Both are serious conditions but if some one told you to *just snap out of* cancer you'd laugh and think they were an ass. Imagine someone telling you that you should "try not having cancer". It's equally inane when it's applied to depression. That's the entirety of my point. Replace cancer with heart disease or tuberculosis if you like.

at least no matter how depressed/down/sad/dead inside etc you may feel your still alive, you still will hopefully get to live another day, and make the most of it, appreciating what you have.

No, some don't. Ms Fitzgerald didn't for example. More people died last year to suicide than car accidents but we have Gaybo on the tv/radio and expensive CGI ads for road safety. Why not for suicide which killed more?

DeV.

nesf

candy-gal1 wrote: »

okay, and slate me all you want after this as i know its not an appropriate response for this thread, but being depressed has nothing to do with having cancer, at least no matter how depressed/down/sad/dead inside etc you may feel your still alive, you still will hopefully get to live another day, and make the most of it, appreciating what you have.

You don't have a very good understanding of depression to be honest or what it's like to be depressed. You are physically unable to appreciate what you have that's kind of the whole point of depression! It's a fundamental change in how the brain functions and processes information, emotions and feedback from the world without it. You're viewing it as if it was like cancer and was a disease of the just the body and not the mind (not that you can't get depression etc co-morbid with cancer or anything!). That the way you think is somehow independent of the depression and you can make the most out of life etc.

Seriously, this is exactly why there is so much bloody stigma. There is a fundamental incorrect assumption in the way many people think of mental illness. Mostly due to an unconscious subscription to a dualist philosophy of the mind (i.e. body and mind are completely and utterly separate and distinct).

Edit: I'm not attacking you here, I'm more frustrated with the general misunderstanding and incorrect assumptions that anything you said yourself.

Callipo

nesf wrote: »

You don't have a very good understanding of depression to be honest or what it's like to be depressed. You are physically unable to appreciate what you have that's kind of the whole point of depression! It's a fundamental change in how the brain functions and processes information, emotions and feedback from the world without it. You're viewing it as if it was like cancer and was a disease of the just the body and not the mind (not that you can't get depression etc co-morbid with cancer or anything!). That the way you think is somehow independent of the depression and you can make the most out of life etc.

Seriously, this is exactly why there is so much bloody stigma. There is a fundamental incorrect assumption in the way many people think of mental illness. Mostly due to an unconscious subscription to a dualist philosophy of the mind (i.e. body and mind are completely and utterly separate and distinct).

Edit: I'm not attacking you here, I'm more frustrated with the general misunderstanding and incorrect assumptions that anything you said yourself.

are you saying depression is like being wired wrong in the head?

CDfm

Its not as clear cut.

Recently the Kerry coroner Terence Casey made comments on older male suicide in the county being related changes in the drink driving laws. Rural guys who used to go for one or two social pints with friends can't do so anymore, wont break the law, and are becoming isolated and killing themselves.He said new road safety legislation may be reducing the number of road deaths but was leading to more suicides .

So you can't just say its down to being wired wrong.

EUSSR

Everybody should have the right to end their lives. This is an issue Government must have little interference with. Most of their "concern" about you only really applies to your ability to pay them back tax anyway. I don't think the eurocrats in Brussels will be shedding tears over any suicide deaths in the near future.

nesf

Callipo wrote: »

are you saying depression is like being wired wrong in the head?

Not really. It's very, very complex and poorly understood really. Think of it being like being unable to correctly process certain kinds of information. So a depressed person looks at their life and can see only failure while if they weren't depressed they'd be able to see the good things too.

When I'm depressed all I can think of is death, decay and suicide usually. That's not exactly a normal thinking pattern for me. When I'm not depressed I'm really quite the opposite and quite positive, if very cynical. It's not that there's a permanent "bad wiring" in my brain but that there's some temporary thing that happens that screws up how my brain functions when I'm depressed.


There are some theories that it has to do with some kind of breakdown in the reward system of the brain (but this is far, far more complex a system as just being a serotonin issue!). I posted a video (very long) about the causes and biological aspects of depression many pages ago in this thread, if you do a search in this thread for my posts you'll find it. It explains this stuff far better than I can.

nesf

CDfm wrote: »

Its not as clear cut.

Recently the Kerry coroner Terence Casey made comments on older male suicide in the county being related changes in the drink driving laws. Rural guys who used to go for one or two social pints with friends can't do so anymore, wont break the law, and are becoming isolated and killing themselves.He said new road safety legislation may be reducing the number of road deaths but was leading to more suicides .

So you can't just say its down to being wired wrong.

That's more about the cause than the state of being depressed though. Environmental factors hit everyone hard but for some reason some people become depressed while others go through a normal low and recover normally.

EUSSR

nesf wrote: »

That's more about the cause than the state of being depressed though. Environmental factors hit everyone hard but for some reason some people become depressed while others go through a normal low and recover normally.

I would argue anybody who simply thinks at a higher order level and ruminates over the state of the world constantly is much more likely to experience severe symptoms.

Not to say it's exclusive to moderate to high iq folk, but it seems logical that a brain that won't shut the **** up is likely to become depressed/psychotic over the long term?

Of course, none of this is medical advice, just my own(probably misinformed) opinion.

CDfm

@EUSSR I am not making a value judgment. I was responding to Callipo who posted "are you saying depression is like being wired wrong in the head?" pointing out that other factors,like social isolation, are causes too.

Wibbs

CDfm wrote: »

@EUSSR I am not making a value judgment. I was responding to Callipo who posted "are you saying depression is like being wired wrong in the head?" pointing out that other factors,like social isolation, are causes too.

Well the rates of depressive illness are significantly higher in the industrialised world and appear to be on the rise compared to smaller agrarian and hunter gatherer societies(even allowing for better diagnosis), even though the latter may appear on the outside to have more triggers for depressive episodes(rates of schizophrenia are the same however). While there appear to be other factors like diet, exercise, feeling of belonging, bonding outlets for grief etc, social isolation seems to be a large part of that. Your tribal type is almost never alone, from birth to death. They're socialised throughout their lives. IE a shy 12 year old never gets the chance to become even more introverted and socially isolated as an adult. In "western" society he or she is much more likely to get that chance. They're "allowed" to be on their own, to be less socialised. Even such amazing tools as the internet and really well run places on it like Boards can plug into that. People can get a superficial socialisation feedback without actually engaging socially(in the old fashioned sense). For some it may be more a hindrance than a help? I think of the guy addicted to porn while his flesh and blood girlfriend goes to sleep alone kind of thing.

This is obviously just my take, but early and continuous socialisation IMHO is a biggy. I've a new puppy and all the experts in raising dogs talk about early and frequent socilaisation to avoid problems in the adult dog. Which makes perfect sense. Now of course people aren't dogs, but we're both social animals at heart and lack of socialisation in people these days may be a big factor in the rise of certain kinds of mental illness.

Doesn't even have to go as far as mental illness, it can mean someone turns out "odd" or socially ill(?) in certain situations. I see this in my own life with me. As a kid my family were quite isolated. I've something like 20 first cousins and I could only name two(they would know each other pretty well though). My parents never held dinner parties or any of that when I was growing up. Indeed very rarely went out or had friends over. I never went to family weddings or gatherings, just the odd funeral(joy:)) Throw in being an only child and today as an adult I really find it hard to "fit in" in normal family domestic type situations. I don't know what to do with myself as it were. It seems odd to me. Luckily the isolation meme/gene skipped a generation with me and I have and have had lots of friends over the years, so I'm tip top in those situations, but I can't do the domestic stuff at all. Dinner parties and the like make me quite uncomfortable. If I had been raised in a more "normal" environment I'd be more "normal" on that score today. If I had an existing genetic tendency to be more introverted and shy in that environment, I suspect I would be rightly fooked as an adult(well more than I am ). OK Im rambling here(no shock), but it would be my personal take that quite a lot of mental illness might be better described as social illness first with the mental and emotional fallout that comes from that.

Callipo

Wibbs wrote: »

Well the rates of depressive illness are significantly higher in the industrialised world and appear to be on the rise compared to smaller agrarian and hunter gatherer societies(even allowing for better diagnosis), even though the latter may appear on the outside to have more triggers for depressive episodes(rates of schizophrenia are the same however). While there appear to be other factors like diet, exercise, feeling of belonging, bonding outlets for grief etc, social isolation seems to be a large part of that. Your tribal type is almost never alone, from birth to death. They're socialised throughout their lives. IE a shy 12 year old never gets the chance to become even more introverted and socially isolated as an adult. In "western" society he or she is much more likely to get that chance. They're "allowed" to be on their own, to be less socialised. Even such amazing tools as the internet and really well run places on it like Boards can plug into that. People can get a superficial socialisation feedback without actually engaging socially(in the old fashioned sense). For some it may be more a hindrance than a help? I think of the guy addicted to porn while his flesh and blood girlfriend goes to sleep alone kind of thing.

This is obviously just my take, but early and continuous socialisation IMHO is a biggy. I've a new puppy and all the experts in raising dogs talk about early and frequent socilaisation to avoid problems in the adult dog. Which makes perfect sense. Now of course people aren't dogs, but we're both social animals at heart and lack of socialisation in people these days may be a big factor in the rise of certain kinds of mental illness.

Doesn't even have to go as far as mental illness, it can mean someone turns out "odd" or socially ill(?) in certain situations. I see this in my own life with me. As a kid my family were quite isolated. I've something like 20 first cousins and I could only name two(they would know each other pretty well though). My parents never held dinner parties or any of that when I was growing up. Indeed very rarely went out or had friends over. I never went to family weddings or gatherings, just the odd funeral(joy:)) Throw in being an only child and today as an adult I really find it hard to "fit in" in normal family domestic type situations. I don't know what to do with myself as it were. It seems odd to me. Luckily the isolation meme/gene skipped a generation with me and I have and have had lots of friends over the years, so I'm tip top in those situations, but I can't do the domestic stuff at all. Dinner parties and the like make me quite uncomfortable. If I had been raised in a more "normal" environment I'd be more "normal" on that score today. If I had an existing genetic tendency to be more introverted and shy in that environment, I suspect I would be rightly fooked as an adult(well more than I am ). OK Im rambling here(no shock), but it would be my personal take that quite a lot of mental illness might be better described as social illness first with the mental and emotional fallout that comes from that.

Rambling indeed. Doctors want you to take their dugs. Or the company they are paid by

Think about it?

EUSSR

Callipo wrote: »

Rambling indeed. Doctors want you to take their dugs. Or the company they are paid by

Think about it?

If you fail to accept conventional wisdom and get angry at promises politicians make for which you know they cannot keep, you may be mentally ill. Time to talk to your doctor about a moderate dose of f.uckitol.

nesf

Callipo wrote: »

Rambling indeed. Doctors want you to take their dugs. Or the company they are paid by

Think about it?

Bloody anti-drug zealots. Yes, there are loads of problems with big pharma and advertising to doctors. No, this doesn't mean that all drugs are evil and that someone with a mental illness should avoid them.

Benny_Cake

Callipo wrote: »

Rambling indeed. Doctors want you to take their dugs. Or the company they are paid by

Think about it?

You go to the doctor's. He tells you that you have a heart condition, but it can be cured with a course of medication. Following your logic you should refuse to be treated as the pharmaceutical company will profit from it. Maybe you should think about it?

EUSSR

Benny_Cake wrote: »

You go to the doctor's. He tells you that you have a heart condition, but it can be cured with a course of medication. Following your logic you should refuse to be treated as the pharmaceutical company will profit from it. Maybe you should think about it?

Heart medications are subject to far more stringent standards than anti depressant medication though.

If heart medications were subject to the same standards as anti-depressant medication, there would be a record number of dead people.

If the suicide rate for Depression is so high, why are anti-depressants still being prescribed? If the medication isn't working across the board, why continue to prescribe?

cloud493

EUSSR wrote: »

Everybody should have the right to end their lives. This is an issue Government must have little interference with. Most of their "concern" about you only really applies to your ability to pay them back tax anyway. I don't think the eurocrats in Brussels will be shedding tears over any suicide deaths in the near future.

I disagree with this entirely. I mean, for someone to take their life, in one moment of sudden sadness, would be terrible. I was in the ER this past march, nearly bled to death after slitting my wrists, trying to kill myself. I don't know if it was right, or any of that. But I'm glad it didn't work, no matter how I feel right now. Moments of madness happen to everyone. For the government to 'sanction' such things, would be insanity./

nesf

EUSSR wrote: »

If the suicide rate for Depression is so high, why are anti-depressants still being prescribed? If the medication isn't working across the board, why continue to prescribe?

Because they work in some cases which is better than prescribing nothing at all from a duty of care point of view.

Benny_Cake

EUSSR wrote: »

Heart medications are subject to far more stringent standards than anti depressant medication though.

If heart medications were subject to the same standards as anti-depressant medication, there would be a record number of dead people.

If the suicide rate for Depression is so high, why are anti-depressants still being prescribed? If the medication isn't working across the board, why continue to prescribe?

Do you have any evidence that anti-depressants don't help? The point you seem to be making is that the suicide rate for depression is high, so therefore anti-depressants aren't effective. That proves absolutely nothing about the efficacy of the medication - getting results involves getting the specific drug and dosage combinations right. And medication is only part of the solution, no one claims it is a silver bullet.