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Beagán gramadaí

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    Bean, being feminine, would lenite fuinnúil.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Gumbi wrote: »
    Bean, being feminine, would lenite fuinnúil.
    True - the dangers of using the slash!
    Bean fhuinniúil í / Cailín fuinniúil í


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    From Foclóir.ie:

    "Miss Murphy was at home bhí Iníon Uí Mhurchú sa bhaile
    Miss Mary Hogan Máire Ní Ógáin"

    Why not Iníon Ní Mhurchú?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I'll answer that the long way around.

    Murphy is the father's surname, so Miss Murphy is in fact Murphy's daughter, which is the actual meaning of the Irish version.

    Murphy then is Ó Murchú; Murphy's (genitive case) is Uí Mhurchú, and so Murphy's daughter - Miss Murhpy - is Iníon Uí Mhurchú.

    I hope that clears the matter up.


    Oh, and btw, the form is actually an abreviation of Iníon Uí!


    In this day and age, of course, where plenty of women take their mother's surname, particularly where the mother is unmarried, you could of course argue that they should go with Iníon Ní Mhurchú!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    "Oh, and btw, the form  is actually an abreviation of Iníon Uí!"

    This, I did not know; I thought Ní was short for Iníon/daughter. So, Sinéad Iníon Uí Mhúrchú and Sinéad Ní Mhúrchú are equally correct? Is the former merely an older style?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I suppose they are both correct, but I don't think anyone would write X Iníon Uí Y as their name - inthe modern age, it would be seen as more of a description than a name as such. But there's nothing to stop you doing so.

    In school though, you might hear a teacher ironically and over-formally calling a pupil A Iníon Uí Mhurchú, to catch her attention for instance, but without the first name. Like if they caught her texting on her phone -

    A Iníon Uí Mhurchú, ar mhaith leat an chéad abairt eile a léamh anois?

    Cue, a flustered look at a book on her desk open on the wrong page ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Ar an lámh eile (Foclóir.ie: https://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/on+the+other+hand)

    or

    Ar an láimh eile? (De Bhaldraithe: https://www.teanglann.ie/ga/eid/contrariwise)


    What is the difference between both?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,491 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Laímh is dative singular where lámh is nominative. Ar an láimh might be more grammatically correct, you do change nouns when they're the targets of prepositional phrases. In my opinion, this is just to try and fit Irish to Latin grammar.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    No, it's not related to forcing Irish into a Latin mould in this case, although there are situations where that has been the case.

    It is because in the past there actually was a separate dative case in Irish (you can call it something else if you like), the reality is that lámh and láimh are different forms of the same word.

    For those that are not familiar with the phonetics of Irish, the "mh" is pronounced differently in the two words, and this is indicated by the insertion of "i" in the dative form. Few enough non-native speakers notice this, never mind reproduce the actual phonetics, they simply pronounce Irish using the same sounds as they use in English.



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