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Beagán gramadaí

124

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  • #2


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Does anybody know what 'maitríósce' means? It's not appearing anywhere online except in a story by Siobhán Parkinson.

    No idea, it certainly doesn't look like an Irish word, it doesn't follow spelling conventions at all (the íó specifically).


  • #2


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Does anybody know what 'maitríósce' means? It's not appearing anywhere online except in a story by Siobhán Parkinson.

    Maitríóisce
    Níl meas ar bith ag Mara ar na bábóigíní Rúiseacha a thugann a máthair di dá lá breithe, ach rud is iontach — tá duine de na bábóigíní ar iarradh, ach deir Mam nach bhfuil barúil aici fúithí…
    Mara’s mother gives her a birthday present of Matryoshka dolls from Russia, and one of the dolls is missing. When Mara and her friend Dorota go in search of the missing doll they make some discoveries.

    It's an Irish spelling of a Russian word. It's there in the description so I dunno how you missed it! :P


  • #2


    Briseadh v Briste
    Dúnadh v. Dúnta
    etc.

    Briseadh an fhuinneog; the window was broken
    Bhí an fhuinneog briste: the window was broken
    Brisfear an fhuinneog: the window will be broken
    Beidh an fhuinneog briste; the window will be broken
    Dúntar an doras; the door is closed
    Tá an doras dúnta; the door is closed

    Could somebody explain the difference between both in the above examples and correct me if I'm mistaken in my translation. I suspect the saorbhriathar intentionally avoids mentioning who is responsible, while there is not necessarily any intentional avoidance in the aidiacht bhriathartha. Not sure at all of the full difference, though. Grma.


  • #2


    Seo mar a mholfainn féin duit...

    Use the aidiacht bhriathartha....when it acts as an adjective
    E.g.
    Tá an fhuinneog briste .......The window is broken
    Bhí an fhuinneog briste.......The window was broken
    In these examples you are describing the window (it's appearance for example)

    On the other hand, use the Saorbhriathar when stating something happened (the verb- V) to the window (object - O). As you rightly said, when not mentioning who carried out the action (without a subject-S)
    E.g.
    Briseadh an fhuinneog (the window was broken)
    Or maybe you might say
    Dúnadh an fhuinneog bhriste (the broken window was closed; describing the action of the broken window being closed)


    Bhí an fhuinneog dúnta ag Seán nuair a chonaic sé Máire. Seán had (already) closed the window when he saw Máire

    Dúnadh an fhuinneog nuair a chonacthas Máire. The window was closed when Máire was seen. (Because she was seen possibly; or just after see she was seen etc)
    Dhún sé an fhuinneog nuair a chonaic sé Máire. He closed the window when he saw Máire.


    Summary:
    In the Aidiacht bhriathartha examples you are describing the condition of the object (window)
    In the Saorbhriathar examples you are describing action (closing)


  • #2


    1. Comhairle Bhéaloideas Éireann ("Comhairle Chontae", 46,400 torthaí)




    Comhairle aloideas Éireann ("Comhairle Contae", 64,700 torthaí)

    Ach:

    Ón gCaighdeán Oifigiúil (lth 205)
    (j) aonaid riaracháin agus gnó: más teideal aonaid riaracháin nó gnó atá i gceist:— An Roinn Comhshaoil, an rannóg pearsanra, seirbhís comhairleoireachta, comhairle baile, comhairle contae, comhairle cathrach,...



    2. Leabharlann Poiblí (Cabrach, BÁC 7)



    Leabharlann Phoiblí (Deilginis, Co. BhÁC) (Leabharlann = baininscneach)


    3. Feis Ceoil



    Feis Cheoil (Feis = baininscneach)


  • #2


    Tá na cinn seo ceart:

    1. Comhairle Béaoideas Éireann (agus Comhairle Contae)

    2. Leabharlann Phoiblí

    3. Feis cheoil


  • #2


    An bhfuil aon difríocht idir 'silím' agus 'silímse' ?


  • #2


    NCW feen wrote: »
    An bhfuil aon difríocht idir 'silím' agus 'silímse' ?

    The "se" at the end is for emphasis. Can be used for any verb Táim ---> Táimse etc. Also mé ---> mise.


  • #2


    Roundstone is Cloch na Rón, the stone of the seal, in Irish, according to the Logainm.ie entry.

    But Rón is masculine, according to Teanglann.ie.

    Why, therefore, is the correct name not Cloch an Róin, for stone of the seal, or even Cloch na Rónta, if stone of the seals is meant?


  • #2


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Roundstone is Cloch na Rón, the stone of the seal, in Irish, according to the Logainm.ie entry.

    But Rón is masculine, according to Teanglann.ie.

    Why, therefore, is the correct name not Cloch an Róin, for stone of the seal, or even Cloch na Rónta, if stone of the seals is meant?

    Could be feminine in the particular dialect, I imagine.


  • #2


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Why, therefore, is the correct name not Cloch an Róin, for stone of the seal, or even Cloch na Rónta, if stone of the seals is meant?
    Rón is the original genitive plural of Rón, so maybe it's the genitive plural.


  • #2


    AnLonDubh wrote: »
    Rón is original genitive plural of the Rón, so maybe it's the genitive plural.

    This sounds much more likely than my suggestion!


  • #2


    AnLonDubh wrote: »
    Rón is original genitive plural of the Rón, so maybe it's the genitive plural.

    Interesting. For future reference, is there a way of telling the original spelling from a word/was there some linguistic change for words of a particular pattern? (this is all I can find)


  • #2


    Was struggling to find the Irish for "off-peak time/period". Came across "seachbhuaice" but not sufficient reliable references. Got a reliable source for "peak hours", amanna barrthráchta, but none for off-peak time/period. Anybody do better than amanna níos saoire? :o


  • #2


    Lag-thréimhse?


  • #2


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Interesting. For future reference, is there a way of telling the original spelling from a word/was there some linguistic change for words of a particular pattern? (this is all I can find)
    For the vast majority of masculine Irish words their genitive plural was identical to their nominative singular originally. Only in the last two centuries have "strong plurals" started to spread and changed this.


  • #2


    From the slightly addictive Etymology Online website, this time the entry for Tyrone: "Tyrone: Irish county, from Irish Tir Eoghain "Eoghan's Land," from Eoghan "Owen," ancestor of the O'Neills, who owned land here. Tir also forms the final syllable in Leinster, Munster, Ulster."

    The highlighted part is very interesting, if true. Never thought about it and can't find any source confirming it. Anybody able to confirm?


  • #2


    I could be wrong, but I thought it was a result of the addition of the North Germanic ending "-ster" (for state) to the pre-existing Gaelic names by the Vikings:

    Mumhain + ster -> Munster.
    Laighean + ster -> Leinster
    Uladh + ster -> Ulster


  • #2


    I had a search of etymonline but tbh, I think ALD's answer is more probable.


  • #2


    I suspected a non-Irish origin also, given the existence of Münster in Germany. However, I finally got access to the OED online, and here's the result from Ulster (Leinster & Munster have no separate entries) so I can see where Etymonline is getting his origin above:


    "Ulster, n.
    Etymology: < the name of the most northerly of the four provinces of Ireland.
    The name occurs in Middle English (14–15th cent.) as Ulster (also Hulster) and in the fuller form Ulvester (in Scots also as Ullister, Ulsister, and Ulcister), = Anglo-Norman (a1225) Ulvestre (Hulv-), Anglo-Latin (c1200) Ulvestera, Ulvestira, Ulvestria, corresponding to Old Norse Ulfastir, a variant of the more usual Ulaztir, Ulaðstir (also Ulaþscir), the first element of which is the Irish Ulaidh (genitive Uladh), men of Ulster. The origin of the suffix, which also appears in Leinster and Munster (Irish Gaelic Laighean, Mumha), is not clear, but it may represent Irish tír land."

    Oxford English Dictionary entry for 'Ulster'


  • #2


    "Is iris chultúir é NÓS" Why is this not "Is iris chultúir í Nós", as 'Iris' is feminine?

    Likewise, "Is áit álainn í", as áit is feminine? What precisely is the rule here? áit is presumably a pronoun so if one were speaking about an ostán it would be is áit álainn é, or would the actual name of the hotel determine whether it's é or í?

    In the vast majority of cases "é" seems to be used without, to me, any apparent reference to gender. Can anybody direct me towards the rule governing this? Grma.


  • #2


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    "Is iris chultúir é NÓS" Why is this not "Is iris chultúir í Nós", as 'Iris' is feminine?

    Likewise, "Is áit álainn í", as áit is feminine? What precisely is the rule here? áit is presumably a pronoun so if one were speaking about an ostán it would be is áit álainn é, or would the actual name of the hotel determine whether it's é or í?

    In the vast majority of cases "é" seems to be used without, to me, any apparent reference to gender. Can anybody direct me towards the rule governing this? Grma.
    In "Is iris chultúir é Nós", the é refers to the second noun, in this case "Nós" which is masculine.

    In a sentence without a second noun, where the subject is just "it", like:
    Is áit alainn í/é

    The general tendency is to use the gender of the first noun, although it is valid to just always say é, and native speakers frequently do.

    Also, if the first noun is definite it will also have a pronoun matching it in gender:

    Sin é an saghas duine í Bríd.

    é -> due to saghas being masculine
    í -> due to Bríd being feminine


  • #2


    An Modh Coinníollach.

    chuirfinn
    chuirfeá
    chuirfeadh sé
    chuirfeadh sí
    chuirfimis
    chuirfeadh sibh
    chuirfidís
    Sb. chuirfí

    etc. Fair enough. The pattern with all the verbs is clear. However, in grammatical terms how is 'Ba mhaith liom...' explained? I assume it is modh coinníollach as it's 'I would like...'? But could somebody help me understand it.

    What other modh coinníolach constructs are there outside the verb structure above?


  • #2


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    An Modh Coinníollach.

    etc. Fair enough. The pattern with all the verbs is clear. However, in grammatical terms how is 'Ba mhaith liom...' explained? I assume it is modh coinníollach as it's 'I would like...'? But could somebody help me understand it.

    What other modh coinníolach constructs are there outside the verb structure above?
    To be very brief & not at all comprehensive:
    ba is a form of the coupla.
    I think the copula has only two affirmative forms left - is and ba
    (of course there are also the negative and question forms)
    is for present/future, and ba for the historic tenses (past & conditional).

    If you go here http://193.1.97.44/focloir/ and put is into the box, it will give you a list of all the forms of the verb.


  • #2


    She is an energetic person = Is duine fuinniúil/bríomhar í.
    She is energetic = Is fuinniúil/bríomhar í? Or must duine/cailín/bean etc be put in? If the latter, could somebody direct me to the rule? Grma.


  • #2


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    She is an energetic person = Is duine fuinniúil/bríomhar í.
    She is energetic = Is fuinniúil/bríomhar í? Or must duine/cailín/bean etc be put in? If the latter, could somebody direct me to the rule? Grma.

    If you're describing her as she is at this moment in time, right now, "Tá sí fuinniúil".

    She tends to be energetic : "Bíonn sí bríomhar".


  • #2


    Tá sí bríomhar/tá sí fuinniúil. :)

    To use "is" in this context, you need the noun to which you are referring to be included in the sentence - Is fear mór é / is buachaill dána é / is capall dubh é etc.
    EDIT in case what I've written implies the need for an adjective, that's not the case - you can say something like "she is a scientist" this way, i.e. "eolaí atá inti".

    (FYI, this can also be expressed with the format "fear mór atá ann" / "bean óg atá inti", etc.)


  • #2


    In so-called "classification" sentences using the copail, the word order is consistently verb-predicate-subject.
    Is fear é. He is a farmer.
    Is teanga marbh an Laidin. Latin is a dead language.
    In these sentences, the predicate is indefinite. A man. A dead language.

    I cannot find a clear description of the word order in "identification" sentences, where the predicate is definite. In use it seems like the word order is sometimes verb-predicate-subject, and sometimes verb-subject-predicate.

    For example:
    Is é an fear é. He is the man.
    That order is verb (Is) predicate(an fear) subject (é).
    But: Is é Sean an fear. Sean is the man.
    That order is Verb (Is) subject (Sean) predicate.

    I have not found a grammar book that addresses this order. Anyone know what the grammatical rules are for identification sentences in the copail? If I wanted to say "Chinese is the most difficult language" how would I do that?


  • #2


    Igotadose wrote: »
    In so-called "classification" sentences using the copail, the word order is consistently verb-predicate-subject.
    Is fear é. He is a farmer man. (feirmeoir = farmer)
    Is teanga mharbh í an Laidin. Latin is a dead language. (teanga is a feminine noun, so the adjective "marbh" must reflect this)
    In these sentences, the predicate is indefinite. A man. A dead language.

    I cannot find a clear description of the word order in "identification" sentences, where the predicate is definite. In use it seems like the word order is sometimes verb-predicate-subject, and sometimes verb-subject-predicate.

    For example:
    Is é an fear é. He is the man.
    That order is verb (Is) predicate(an fear) subject (é).
    But: Is é Sean an fear. Sean is the man.
    That order is Verb (Is) subject (Sean) predicate.

    I have not found a grammar book that addresses this order. Anyone know what the grammatical rules are for identification sentences in the copail? If I wanted to say "Chinese is the most difficult language" how would I do that?

    I put in a couple of corrections/explanations in bold above.

    Is é an fear é could be used to emphasise/differentiate, for instance "Cé hé Seán sa ghriangraf seo?" "Is é an fear é." - Who is Seán in this photo? He's the man (e.g. as opposed to the boy.)

    The verb "bí" operates a bit differently in Irish than "to be" does in English - I started writing an answer and then realised that it was getting more complicated and was starting to get beyond me. So instead, have a read through this page - make sure you've got plenty of time and brain cells to spare! :pac:

    Chinese is the most difficult language = Is í an tSínis an teanga is deacra.


  • #2


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    She is an energetic person = Is duine fuinniúil/bríomhar í.
    She is energetic = Is fuinniúil/bríomhar í? Or must duine/cailín/bean etc be put in?.
    If you're describing her as she is at this moment in time, right now, "Tá sí fuinniúil".

    She tends to be energetic : "Bíonn sí bríomhar".
    mr chips wrote: »
    Tá sí bríomhar/tá sí fuinniúil. :)
    Althoug formally correct, this feels to me like someone thinking in English.
    English tends to use Subject-Verb-Adjective, while Irish tends to favour Verb-Noun-Personal pronoun.
    I'd say Tá fuinneamh aici if I was using this structure.
    Better again would be this structure which is probably more natural in Irish:
    Bean/Cailín fuinniúil í or Is bean/cailín fuinniúil í
    Particularly in the spoken language, the Is can be dropped.


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