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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,888 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Ceist 37
    Is e mbionn an freagra ceart. Cen fath? Cen fath nach bhfuil se "bhfuil"?

    Ceist 38
    Duirt me "sheachtaine" ach is e "mi" an freagra ceart. Ach nil thuigim, mar ta se an aimsir caite. Shouldn't it have a "h"?

    Ceist 39
    Aris, ta se san aimsir caite. Why briseadh? What tense is that anyway?

    Forgive the lack of fadas, my phone won't do 'em.

    Bí/bíonn is used for something that happens.
    Tá/"bhfuil" is used for something that is happening right now.

    "Cúpla" doesn't put a séimhiú on the noun that follows it.
    The Aimsir Chaite puts a séimhiú on verbs, not on nouns, so that has nothing to do with it anyway.

    "Briseadh" is the saorbhriathar, Aimsir Chaite. It's used for describing an action that has been done, but without saying who did it.
    The sentence translates as "I was let go from my job last week". It's in the past tense, but it doesn't say exactly who let you go.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    [quote="Insect Overlord;84794697"

    "Cúpla" doesn't put a séimhiú on the noun that follows it.
    The Aimsir Chaite puts a séimhiú on verbs, not on nouns, so that has nothing to do with it anyway.
    [/quote]

    Okay, so it's not sheachtaine or mhi because they have a h and the sentence doesn't need one of them. And it's not miosa because that's a single month. So it has to be mi. Is that it? :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Okay, so it's not sheachtaine or mhi because they have a h and the sentence doesn't need one of them. And it's not miosa because that's a single month. So it has to be mi. Is that it? :o

    Cúpla seachtain, cúpla mí ---- correct :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    deirdremf wrote: »
    No specific reason, it's just that the verb féach is usually followed by ar. To be learnt and remembered!

    Same reason as you'd say "the edge of the city" rather than "the edge the city"in English: it's a genitive case.

    ceann amháin, dhá cheann, trí cinn, ceithre cinn etc.

    one of them, two of them, three of them, four of them etc.
    (although ceann, cinn mean head, heads in actual fact. Always used in counting things when you don't actually name the thing)
    Also, when you are counting things, remember to use dhá and ceithre instead of and ceathair. The rest of the numbers don't have special forms, except for counting people.


    Actually, I don't really understand 31. It came up in another context just now.

    "...agus e ag magadh faoi chinealtas an mhaistir".

    And joking about the kindness of the master (ta se ar sceal taim ag leamh)

    I would have thought that it should be "chinealtas den mhaistear"

    Just, you said 31 was "na cathrach" because I wouldn't say "the edge the city", so I thought you meant na implies of the, but an doesn't. In this case, it couldn't be na because it's one man. So where's the "of the" there?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Actually, I don't really understand 31. It came up in another context just now.

    "...agus e ag magadh faoi chinealtas an mhaistir".

    And joking about the kindness of the master (ta se ar sceal taim ag leamh)

    I would have thought that it should be "chinealtas den mhaistear"

    Just, you said 31 was "na cathrach" because I wouldn't say "the edge the city", so I thought you meant na implies of the, but an doesn't. In this case, it couldn't be na because it's one man. So where's the "of the" there?
    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Actually, I don't really understand 31. It came up in another context just now.

    "...agus e ag magadh faoi chinealtas an mhaistir".

    And joking about the kindness of the master (ta se ar sceal taim ag leamh)

    I would have thought that it should be "chinealtas den mhaistear"

    Just, you said 31 was "na cathrach" because I wouldn't say "the edge the city", so I thought you meant na implies of the, but an doesn't. In this case, it couldn't be na because it's one man. So where's the "of the" there?

    It's to do with the genitive form of the words. Bear with me, I may not be correct with my explanation, but the end result will definitely be correct :P

    So. We have the noun, "fear". Fear = man/a man. Plural is "fir". "men".

    The genitive singular form of "fear" is "fir", and the genitive plural form of it is fear. Yes, you heard me right. Like opposites.

    (The) hat of the man. Possessions utulises the genitive case. So we must use it. Man is in the singular in English, so we do the same in Irish. The answer is "hata an fhir". Irish doesn't distinguish whether there's a the before hata, rather this meaning is included within the an/na in the middle if the context demands it. That's why I have the first "the" in brackets.

    So. (The) hat of the MEN. We use "na" because it's in the plural, and because it's masculine (an for singular, na for plural - but you'll see soon, for feminine nouns it's the opposite). Remember, the genitive plural form is "fear" which means of men. So the answer is "hata na bhfear". There is an ellipsis of "fear" because anytime a noun in the genitive plural follows na this is done. So hata na gcapall means (the) hat of the horses (capall is the genitive plural form of horse - yes I know capall is also the nominative plural form in the singular).

    Also note that, following "an" in the genitive the genitive singular, the genitive singular form is lenited. So we have "hata fir" which mean (a) hat of a man and "hata an fhir" (the) hat of the man. Or, since "capaill" is the genitive singular form of capall, we have either "hata capaill" or "hata an chapaill).

    Hope I'm being clear so far. I'm writing this on my iphone, hopefully there are no mistakes. Now for feminine nouns.

    So. "Cathair" is feminine. So using definite article is slightly different in conjunction with the genitive case relative to masculine words. It's the opposite. OK.

    Cathair. (A) city. "Cathrach" is the genitive singular form of it. It is a feline noun. "Cathracha" is the genitive plural form of city, and, as you might know already means "of cities".

    "Geata cathrach" (a) gate of a city. Geata na cathrach. (The) gate of the city. No mutation of the genitive singular form as you can see. Geata cathracha. Gates of cities. Geata na gcathracha. (The) gate of the cities. Note again how na mutates cathracha.

    Another feminine word. Leaba. Bed. Genitive singular is "leapa". Gen. plural is "leapacha". So, we'll hata again for fun :))

    Hata na leapa. (The) hat of the bed. Hata na leapacha. (The) hat of the beds. Note that l resists mutation., so no change.

    I hope that clears it up. an/na are definite articles in Irish, and are used accordingly when implementing the genitive case.

    So, in your case we have máistir. The genitive singular is simply máistir. No change. So implementing the genitive case with a noun that's masculine is "cineáltas an mháistir". (The) kindness/generosity of the master/teacher.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭teileann


    the master's kindness /the kindness of the master
    Genitive case.

    just as
    the dog's colour/the colour of the dog
    dath an mhadra

    the cat's tail/the tail of the cat
    eireaball an chait


    the table legs/the legs of the table
    cosa an bhoird/

    the tree leaves/the leaves of the tree
    duilleoga an chrainn

    are other examples of the genitive case singular.

    The genitive is formed differently depending on which group (declension) the noun belongs to.
    All the above are formed by
    1. putting in the article an (the)
    2. séimhiú
    3. and making the noun slender. (blue)

    Not all genitives are formed like this.

    imeall na cathrach the edge of the city/city's edge

    In this example
    an chathair is the Nominative singular
    and the genitive is formed by
    changing an to na
    and changing the spelling of cathair to cathrach
    imeall na cathrach

    The na does not mean that it is plural. It is used when forming the genitive singular of a feminine noun.
    The examples that I gave at the top are all masculine nouns and the an does not change to na.

    The bus goes to
    lár na cathrach.
    city centre/centre of the city

    siopaí na cathrach
    are
    The city shops /the shops of the city.

    Do you know the song
    Barr na Sráide ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQaLCWhnxYg

    An tsráid the street (feminine noun)
    but
    the top of the street (Genitive)
    barr na sráide.


  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭teileann


    Gabh mo leithscéal, a Ghumbi.
    Ní fhaca mé do fhreagra go dtí go raibh mo cheannsa seolta agam.
    Sílim go rabhamar ag clóscríobh ag an am céanna.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    teileann wrote: »
    Gabh mo leithscéal, a Ghumbi.
    Ní fhaca mé do fhreagra go dtí go raibh mo cheannsa seolta agam.
    Sílim go rabhamar ag clóscríobh ag an am céanna.

    'Cuma ann go ndeirimid an rud céanna ar aon nós :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    Cén fáth úsáideann an abairtí seo "i ngan" seachas díreach (rather than just) "gan":

    "Bhí sí ag déanamh aclaíochta sa mbreis i ngan a fhios dom".

    Chomh maith leis sin, cén fáth an "dom" seachas an gnáth "agam"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    Cén fáth úsáideann an abairtí seo "i ngan" seachas díreach (rather than just) "gan":

    "Bhí sí ag déanamh aclaíochta sa mbreis i ngan a fhios dom".

    Chomh maith leis sin, cén fáth an "dom" seachas an gnáth "agam"?

    That's the idiom. You have to get out of the mindset of translating word for word, it's not a good habit when it comes to learning a new language. "i ngan fhios do" is the idiom for "not knowing".


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭MaryKirwan


    Gumbi wrote: »
    That's the idiom. You have to get out of the mindset of translating word for word, it's not a good habit when it comes to learning a new language. "i ngan fhios do" is the idiom for "not knowing".

    I know, but how can I know when something's an idiom? :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    MaryKirwan wrote: »
    I know, but how can I know when something's an idiom? :confused:

    You can't, you just learn it :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    Placenames.

    I just drove down Prospect Road. The Irish on the sign, and according to the usually reliable Logainm.ie, is Bóthar na Radharc. However, according to Focal.ie 'Radharc' is masculine, and the genitive is 'Radhairc'. Should, therefore, the correct Irish not be Bóthar an Radhairc?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Micilin Muc


    The official plural of radharc is 'radhairc'. The genitive of the plural is 'radharc', hence Bóthar na Radharc (more than one sight to behold!)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    The official plural of radharc is 'radhairc'. The genitive of the plural is 'radharc', hence Bóthar na Radharc (more than one sight to behold!)

    I'm not too sure about 'Prospect' being the plural Micilín because Prospect Road goes to what is officially still named Prospect Cemetery, but more commonly known as Glasnevin Cemetery. Prospect was the old name for this townland. Similarly Prospect Avenue right next to it was formerly knows as Cemetery Avenue. Séamas Ó Brógáin records it as Bóthar an Radhairc on his Sráidainmneacha Bhaile Átha Cliath, even though DCC records it as Bóthar na Radharc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    deirdremf wrote: »
    You have to be careful with the "á múineadh" construction, as it refers to the student or students, and the initial will have a séimhiú/urú/will be unchanged, depending on whether what you are referring to is masculine/plural/feminine. Obviously in this case, it doesn't change as students are plural and "m" doesn't take an urú.

    Apologies for going back to this point but could somebody tell me the grammatical name for the á ndéanamh/á lorg/á múineadh construction? I can then study it myself. I'm still not clear how it is used, for instance how do I distinguish if he has done something or she has? And if it was done would it just be "a dhéanamh" (without the fada over the "a")?


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,888 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Apologies for going back to this point but could somebody tell me the grammatical name for the á ndéanamh/á lorg/á múineadh construction? I can then study it myself. I'm still not clear how it is used, for instance how do I distinguish if he has done something or she has? And if it was done would it just be "a dhéanamh" (without the fada over the "a")?

    If the noun is singular, then it would be "á dhéanamh" for masculine/firinscneach and "á déanamh" for feminine/baininscneach. In the plural, "á ndéanamh".

    So: séimhiú for masculine singular, no séimhiú for feminine (unless it starts with a vowel) and an urú for plural, when using "á" to describe what is being done.

    For me/you/he/she/we/ye/they: Tá sé á dhéanamh (for example) agam/agat/aige/aici/againn/agaibh/acu.

    To describe something that was done/has been done you need the Aidiacht Bhriathartha. Some examples would be:
    dúnta, oscailte, ólta, déanta, críochnaithe, ceannaithe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    If the noun is singular, then it would be "á dhéanamh" for masculine/firinscneach and "á déanamh" for feminine/baininscneach. In the plural, "á ndéanamh".

    So: séimhiú for masculine singular, no séimhiú for feminine (unless it starts with a vowel) and an urú for plural, when using "á" to describe what is being done.

    For me/you/he/she/we/ye/they: Tá sé á dhéanamh (for example) agam/agat/aige/aici/againn/agaibh/acu.

    To describe something that was done/has been done you need the Aidiacht Bhriathartha. Some examples would be:
    dúnta, oscailte, ólta, déanta, críochnaithe, ceannaithe

    Thanks for that.

    OK, so: Tá sé á dhéanamh aige = He is doing it (?)
    Tá sé á déanamh aici = She is doing it (?)

    Can you also use it in the active sense in the past and future: e.g. Bhí sé á ndéanamh acu = They did it (?)or Bheidh sé á dhéanamh agat = You will do it (? if talking to a male)

    But in the passive sense you must use the Aidiacht Bhriathartha - e.g. Bhí mo chuid oibre déanta roimh a naoi a chlog = My work was done before 9 (?)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    Also, anybody know the grammatical name of the "á dhéanamh etc" construction?


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,888 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Thanks for that.

    OK, so: Tá sé á dhéanamh aige = He is doing it (?)
    Tá sé á déanamh aici = She is doing it (?)

    Not exactly. The gender of the object determines whether or not it takes a séimhiú. Take, for example, a window. Fuinneog is a feminine noun.

    Tá an fhuinneog á dúnadh aige. (He is closing the window.)
    Tá an fhuinneog á dúnadh aici. (She is closing the window.)

    Contrast that with a door (doras being a masculine noun):

    Tá an doras á dhúnadh aige. (He is closing the door.)
    Tá an doras á dhúnadh aici. (She is closing the door.)
    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Can you also use it in the active sense in the past and future: e.g. Bhí sé á ndéanamh acu = They did it (?)or Bheidh sé á dhéanamh agat = You will do it (? if talking to a male)

    The urú is used when you are talking about plurals.

    Tá na fuinneoga á ndúnadh ag na fir. (The men are closing the windows.)
    Tá na doirse á ndúnadh ag na mná. (The women are closing the doors.)
    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    But in the passive sense you must use the Aidiacht Bhriathartha - e.g. Bhí mo chuid oibre déanta roimh a naoi a chlog = My work was done before 9 (?)

    That's the most straightforward way of describing that an action has been done. Here's a link to a useful grammar site: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/zeitform.htm#Verlaufsform
    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Also, anybody know the grammatical name of the "á dhéanamh etc" construction?

    I think it's the passive progressive form of the Ainm Briathartha/verbal noun.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aodh Rua viewpost.gif
    Also, anybody know the grammatical name of the "á dhéanamh etc" construction?

    I think it's the passive progressive form of the Ainm Briathartha/verbal noun.


    You've explained it well, but as regards the name, I don't know - I wouldn't call it passive, though.
    The progressive form of the verbal noun would be okay, I'd say, but I'm not sure that there aren't other progressive forms of the verbal noun, too.
    The "á" is actually a contraction of "do a", with "do" forms for the other persons when needed:
    do mo
    do do
    d'ár
    do bhur

    e.g. A Mhamaí, tá sé do mo bhualadh. - Mammy, he's hitting me.

    (slightly different construction, I know, as there is no "ag" here).

    Maybe we could call it the progressive form with "do"? (or with "á" if you prefer).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Aodh Rua


    Thanks once again IO and Deirdre. Another one.

    What is the difference between, for example, 'tá an doras dúnta' and 'Dúntar an doras'? I know the former is the aidiacht bhriathartha and the latter is the Briathar Saor (present tense ending). But in both cases we do not know who has closed the door so I'm just trying to get a clear definition of the different function of both "tenses" (Are both of them tenses, or what precisely is their grammar label?).


  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭teileann


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Thanks once again IO and Deirdre. Another one.

    What is the difference between, for example, 'tá an doras dúnta' and 'Dúntar an doras'? I know the former is the aidiacht bhriathartha and the latter is the Briathar Saor (present tense ending). But in both cases we do not know who has closed the door so I'm just trying to get a clear definition of the different function of both "tenses" (Are both of them tenses, or what precisely is their grammar label?).

    Tá an doras dúnta. The door is a state of being closed. It is closed. We have no information into the action which caused it to be closed.
    Dúntar an doras. The door is closed but this relates to an action. Briathar.


    Sombody closes the door. Briathar Saor. We don't know who.
    I think the problem is that we think in English.
    Sombody closes the door and
    the door is closed (possibly by xxx)
    has the same meaning in English.

    I usually think of the Briathar Saor as
    somebody
    who does the action, we just don't know who that somebody is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭teileann


    deirdremf wrote: »
    You've explained it well, but as regards the name, I don't know - I wouldn't call it passive, though.
    The progressive form of the verbal noun would be okay, I'd say, but I'm not sure that there aren't other progressive forms of the verbal noun, too.
    The "á" is actually a contraction of "do a", with "do" forms for the other persons when needed:
    do mo
    do do
    d'ár
    do bhur

    e.g. A Mhamaí, tá sé do mo bhualadh. - Mammy, he's hitting me.

    (slightly different construction, I know, as there is no "ag" here).

    Maybe we could call it the progressive form with "do"? (or with "á" if you prefer).

    This is not exactly the same thing but I read a couple of days ago about
    a + séimhiú
    having a meaning of
    for

    Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it as I would like to look into it.
    I found the following in FGB under a - purpose
    D'éirigh a chaint, he rose to speak. Téigh a chodladh, go to sleep. Tháinig a iarraidh iasachta orm, he came to ask me for a loan.

    Does anybody use this construction? I use téig a chodladh, but don't use the others. I would probably stick in chun.
    The
    a +séimhiú
    seems
    succint.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    teileann wrote: »
    This is not exactly the same thing but I read a couple of days ago about
    a + séimhiú
    having a meaning of
    for

    Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it as I would like to look into it.
    I found the following in FGB under a - purpose
    D'éirigh a chaint, he rose to speak. Téigh a chodladh, go to sleep. Tháinig a iarraidh iasachta orm, he came to ask me for a loan.

    Does anybody use this construction? I use téig a chodladh, but don't use the others. I would probably stick in chun.
    The
    a +séimhiú
    seems
    succint.
    Gaeilge Thír Chonaill, b'fhéidir?
    Cé nár chualas "d'éirigh sé a chaint" riamh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    deirdremf wrote: »
    Gaeilge Thír Chonaill, b'fhéidir?
    Cé nár chualas "d'éirigh sé a chaint" riamh.

    'S é leagan infinideach an bhriathair a leanann cineálacha áirid briathra i nGaeilic Thír Chonaill. Nuair a thagann briathra ar nós éirigh, seasaigh, imigh srl. sa phríomhchlásal 'is nuair a leanann frása iad a chuireann cuspóir nó aidhm in iúl, is gnáth gur leis an infinid a chuirtear an cuspóir nó aidhm sin in iúl. Samplaí eile:
    Tá siad ag dul a dhamhsa.
    Chuaigh se a throid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    i think you are talking about the direct relative clause -you use the direct relative particle( a) to translate -who,-to whom etc-this will add h to the verb in irish eg-the man who was working here,and if it is an indirect clause you also use (a) which will eclipse the verb eg the man whose son was working here.this is in reply to aodh rua.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Micilin Muc


    'S é leagan infinideach an bhriathair a leanann cineálacha áirid briathra i nGaeilic Thír Chonaill. Nuair a thagann briathra ar nós éirigh, seasaigh, imigh srl. sa phríomhchlásal 'is nuair a leanann frása iad a chuireann cuspóir nó aidhm in iúl, is gnáth gur leis an infinid a chuirtear an cuspóir nó aidhm sin in iúl. Samplaí eile:
    Tá siad ag dul a dhamhsa.
    Chuaigh se a throid.


    An ceart ar fad ag an nGal Gréine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11 MacGiobuin


    Cuirfear fáilte roimh aon chomairle!

    Tá na rudaí seo agam:
    Tá mé ag iarraidh oibre (ginideach)
    Tá mé ag iarraidh obair a dhéanamh (gan ginideach)

    ach cad é faoi seo

    Tá mé ag iarraidh obair a bheidh furasta

    Tá mé ag iarraidh oibre a bheidh furasta (sílim seo)

    Cé acu i gceart a chairde?
    An ndéanann 'atá, a bheidh, a bheadh srl' difear?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Does anybody know what 'maitríósce' means? It's not appearing anywhere online except in a story by Siobhán Parkinson.


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