Beagán gramadaí

deirdremf

Aodh Rua wrote: »

When two nouns come together the second noun is put in the genitive. Fair enough. But why is it 'barr dorais' but 'dath an tí', 'hata an fhir' and so on? If 'barr dorais' means 'top of the door', why can't 'dath tí' could mean 'colour of the house'? Doras, teach and fear are all masculine so can somebody enlighten me here with a rule? Thanks a million.

'barr dorais' top of A door
'dath an tí', 'hata an fhir' the colour of THE house, the hat of THE man/ the man's hat

I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.

Aodh Rua

deirdremf wrote: »

'barr dorais' top of A door
'dath an tí', 'hata an fhir' the colour of THE house, the hat of THE man/ the man's hat

I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.

Ah, completely. Thanks very much.

Aodh Rua

leis an turas chuig an gcistin anraith = with his journey to the soup kitchen?

Not sure about what happens 'anraith'.

deirdremf

Aodh Rua wrote: »

leis an turas chuig an gcistin anraith = with his journey to the soup kitchen?

Not sure about what happens 'anraith'.

Nothing, as it happens.
This is a great site for grammatical forms of words:
http://193.1.97.44/focloir/

Aodh Rua

deirdremf wrote: »

Nothing, as it happens.
This is a great site for grammatical forms of words:
http://193.1.97.44/focloir/

Thanks again. 2300 words down; lots of grammar checking and 700 words to go.

Aodh Rua

Just checked that site. I was putting ''Más rud é go bhféadfaidh sé anraith a fháil, shíl sé, bheadh sé beo go ceann lá eile.' (if it was a thing that he could get soup, he thought, he would live for another day'.)

But having looked at the site it should be 'Más rud é go bhféada sé anraith a fháil, shíl sé, bheadh sé beo go ceann lá eile.'??

deirdremf

Aodh Rua wrote: »

Just checked that site. I was putting ''Más rud é go bhféadfaidh sé anraith a fháil, shíl sé, bheadh sé beo go ceann lá eile.' (if it was a thing that he could get soup, he thought, he would live for another day'.)

But having looked at the site it should be 'Más rud é go bhféada sé anraith a fháil, shíl sé, bheadh sé beo go ceann lá eile.'??

bhféadfadh

Oíche mhaith!!!

Aodh Rua

A quick question for anybody out there: does the gender of the noun matter at all in the plural?

So far it seems that the adjective qualifying a noun must also be plural - e.g. laethanta deacra.
Does gender play any role in the interaction between adjectives and nouns in the plural?

Grma.

Aard

I did a bit of googling and found this:
"Séimhiú ar aidiacht i ndiaidh ainmfhocail san uimhir iolra a chríochnaíonn ar chonsan, m.sh. capaill mhóra, crainn ghlasa; consan lom ar aidiacht i ndiaidh ainmfhocail san uimhir iolra a chríochnaíonn ar ghuta, m.sh. buachaillí dána, cailíní breátha"

Basically, if the noun ends in a consonant in the plural, the adjective gets a séimhiú. If it ends in a vowel, no change. Never actually knew this myself!

http://www.ucc.ie/acad/mi/cursai/gramadachnua/grnua4.html

pog it

That must be because of the consan caol more so than the consonant itself.

Aard

Yeah, caol+séimhiú seems to be the pattern throughout the language.

deirdremf

Aard wrote: »

I did a bit of googling and found this:
"Séimhiú ar aidiacht i ndiaidh ainmfhocail san uimhir iolra a chríochnaíonn ar chonsan, m.sh. capaill mhóra, crainn ghlasa; consan lom ar aidiacht i ndiaidh ainmfhocail san uimhir iolra a chríochnaíonn ar ghuta, m.sh. buachaillí dána, cailíní breátha"

Basically, if the noun ends in a consonant in the plural, the adjective gets a séimhiú. If it ends in a vowel, no change. Never actually knew this myself!

http://www.ucc.ie/acad/mi/cursai/gramadachnua/grnua4.html

But only if the consonant is preceeded by an "i", i.e. if it is a narrow consonant.

Aard

I can't even think of any plurals that end in a broad consonant tbh.

Enkidu

Aodh Rua wrote: »

A quick question for anybody out there: does the gender of the noun matter at all in the plural?

So far it seems that the adjective qualifying a noun must also be plural - e.g. laethanta deacra.
Does gender play any role in the interaction between adjectives and nouns in the plural?

Grma.

Irish has no gender in the plural Aodh, for historical reasons.

Enkidu

Actually in older Irish (circa 1900) the plural could affect the adjective beyond the slender consonant + lenite rule of today.

In the genitive plural you had eclipses:
mná na stocaí mbána.

In the dative singular as well:
Chuimhnigh sé ar an sparán agus ar an bhFear nDubh

Really helpful for old books!

Also watch out for the dative plural:
leis na fearaibh - with the men

It's basically always (nominative/normal singular) + (a)ibh.

pog it

deirdremf wrote: »

But only if the consonant is preceeded by an "i", i.e. if it is a narrow consonant.

See my post above!

i.e consan caol.

Aodh Rua

"in St Joseph's Church" = "i Séipéal San Sheosaimh"?

Séipéal = masculine
San = ?
Seosamh= ?

I know it should be "San" rather than "Naomh" because Joseph's not an Irish saint. I am not, however, sure on what is genitive and nominative above, and therefore the spellings. Would anybody be able to clarify? Grma.

deirdremf

Aodh Rua wrote: »

"in St Joseph's Church" = "i Séipéal San Sheosaimh"?

Séipéal = masculine
San = ?
Seosamh= ?

I know it should be "San" rather than "Naomh" because Joseph's not an Irish saint. I am not, however, sure on what is genitive and nominative above, and therefore the spellings. Would anybody be able to clarify? Grma.

I think Naomh rather than San here; he's a traditional saint.

As for Seosamh being in the genitive, there would be two views on that: there is no possession involved, so you will probably see both versions.
Do a google for "séipéal naomh" or "séipéal san" and see what versions follow. Choose the most common!

Micilin Muc

deirdremf wrote: »

I think Naomh rather than San here; he's a traditional saint.

As for Seosamh being in the genitive, there would be two views on that: there is no possession involved, so you will probably see both versions.
Do a google for "séipéal naomh" or "séipéal san" and see what versions follow. Choose the most common!

The rule according to the Christian Brothers Irish Grammar is that no genitive ever follows 'Naomh' or 'San'.

Aodh Rua

I want to say 'Love and Loyalty'. Is this 'Grá 7 Dílse' or 'Grá 7 Dílseacht'?

The usually superb (and free) An Gum Irish Dictionary app on my android phone returns 'dílse' as the Irish for both 'loyalty' and 'fidelity'.

However, most of the results here for 'loyalty' have 'dílseacht'.

Irishionary has both:
dílse nf4 allegiance, loyalty, pledge
dílseacht nf allegiance, commitment, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty

What, if anything, is the difference between both words? Which would be best to use for the above? Grma.

Gumbi

I am aware of no difference between them.

Gael

Gumbi wrote: »

I am aware of no difference between them.

Me neither. It's just like difríocht/difear; both two words to say the exact same thing. One form may be more common in a particular dialectic area than the other, but the meaning is the same.

Micilin Muc

'Dílseacht' is the concept, whereas 'dílse' is the trait. Mar shampla:

Tá dílse ar leith aici dá bpáistí thar a col ceathracha (trait)

Tá an dílseacht ina téama láidir sa dán seo (concept)


Dílse/dílseacht aren't verbal nouns, but the Christian Brothers explain the similar concept of two different verbal nouns for the same verb, for example 'léamh' and 'léitheoireacht' for the verb 'léigh'.

"Na cinn is faide, is iondúil go léiríonn siad leanúnachas, minicíocht, teibíocht, torann, treise, srl., rud nach ndéanann na cinn ghairide."

So it all depends on the context for "Love and Loyalty"...

Gumbi

Gael wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

I am aware of no difference between them.

Me neither. It's just like difríocht/difear; both two words to say the exact same thing. One form may be more common in a particular dialectic area than the other, but the meaning is the same.

I think it's deifir which means hurry, but difference in Munster we use deabhadh for hurry. Bhí deabhadh orm etc

Aodh Rua

Micilin Muc wrote: »

'Dílseacht' is the concept, whereas 'dílse' is the trait. Mar shampla:

Tá dílse ar leith aici dá bpáistí thar a col ceathracha (trait)

Tá an dílseacht ina téama láidir sa dán seo (concept)


Dílse/dílseacht aren't verbal nouns, but the Christian Brothers explain the similar concept of two different verbal nouns for the same verb, for example 'léamh' and 'léitheoireacht' for the verb 'léigh'.

"Na cinn is faide, is iondúil go léiríonn siad leanúnachas, minicíocht, teibíocht, torann, treise, srl., rud nach ndéanann na cinn ghairide."

So it all depends on the context for "Love and Loyalty"...

Go diail a mhicilín; táim an-bhuíoch díot as an difríocht a mhiniú. Tá ceist eile agam duit/daoibh, áfach. Cad é an slí is fearr ar 'Our Wedding Mass' a rá? An bhfuil sé 'Aifreann ár mBainis', 'Aifreann ár mBainise', 'Aifreann ár bpósadh', 'Ceiliúradh Aifrinn (sp?) ár bPósadh'(de réir mo chara i gCorca Dhuibhne úsáidtear ‘pósadh’ seachas ‘bainis’ maidir leis an tAifreann agus ‘bainis’ don bhéile amháin) - cé acu is fearr nó an bhfuil focail níos oiriúnaí le húsáid ina thaobh?

Micilin Muc

An bhainis is ea an ceiliúradh a dhéantar ag an óstán. Tarlaíonn an pósadh sa séipéal/sa Chlárlann.

Our Wedding Mass = Aifreann ár bPósta

Ach is deise "Ár bPósadh", más ar an leabhrán don aifreann atá sé le cur!

Aodh Rua

Micilin Muc wrote: »

An bhainis is ea an ceiliúradh a dhéantar ag an óstán. Tarlaíonn an pósadh sa séipéal/sa Chlárlann.

Our Wedding Mass = Aifreann ár bPósta

Ach is deise "Ár bPósadh", más ar an leabhrán don aifreann atá sé le cur!

Grma arís, a Mhicilín. Bhíomar ag smaoineamh mar gheall ar an focal ‘ár’ ar an leabhrán agus nílimid chun ‘ár’ a úsáid ag deireadh an lae. Dá bhrí sin, conas a déarfá ‘Wedding Mass’ amháin: 'Aifreann Pósadh' nó ‘Aifreann Pósta’?

Enkidu

Aodh Rua wrote: »

What, if anything, is the difference between both words? Which would be best to use for the above? Grma.

I'm only adding to what Micilin Muc said. Irish has three main methods for converting adjectives into abstract nouns. Namely:

1. Comparative form of adjective.
2. Add -(e)as.
3. Add -(e)acht or -(a)íocht.

Sometimes two or three of the methods are equally valid:
binne, binneas, binneacht.

Usually the one formed via (1.) has an additional meaning. e.g. all of these mean sweetness or melody, but only binne means harmony.

dílse and dílseacht are both loyalty, but dílse (formed by (1.)) has the additional meaning of loyalty to something as a trait (with the preposition do).

Micilin Muc

Aodh Rua wrote: »

Grma arís, a Mhicilín. Bhíomar ag smaoineamh mar gheall ar an focal ‘ár’ ar an leabhrán agus nílimid chun ‘ár’ a úsáid ag deireadh an lae. Dá bhrí sin, conas a déarfá ‘Wedding Mass’ amháin: 'Aifreann Pósadh' nó ‘Aifreann Pósta’?

I would write 'Aifreann an Phósta'!

Go n-éirí leis na hullmhúcháin Tá sé go maith go bhfuil Gaeilgeoirí ag pósadh!!

Gael

Gumbi wrote: »

I think it's deifir which means hurry, but difference in Munster we use deabhadh for hurry. Bhí deabhadh orm etc

It's definitely spelt 'difear' in the dictionaries, as opposed to 'deifir', but there may be some pronunciation variation that I'm not aware of in some areas.

Micilin Muc

Gael wrote: »

It's definitely spelt 'difear' in the dictionaries, as opposed to 'deifir', but there may be some pronunciation variation that I'm not aware of in some areas.

Dineen dictionary has an interesting entry on difear/deifir. They appear to be the same word. Will post tomorrow.

Gumbi

Gael wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

I think it's deifir which means hurry, but difference in Munster we use deabhadh for hurry. Bhí deabhadh orm etc

It's definitely spelt 'difear' in the dictionaries, as opposed to 'deifir', but there may be some pronunciation variation that I'm not aware of in some areas.

I think we're both right, as above.

Aodh Rua

Ba mhaith liom a rá an meid seo a leanas i nGaeilge: 'We would like to thank our friends and family who have come from near and far to celebrate our special day with us. We are very grateful to you all for your help and support and we look forward to spending many more happy times with you in the years ahead of us.'

Is é seo mo aistriucháin:

'Ba mhaith linn ár mbuíochas a ghabháil lenár gclann agus lenár gcairde ó chian agus ó chóngar as an lá speisialta seo a cheiliúradh linn. Táimid an-bhuíoch díbh as ucht bhur gcabhair agus bhur dtacaíocht go dtí seo. Táimid ag tnúth go mór le am gealgháireach a bheith againn lena chéile sna blianta atá romhainn.'

Beidh mé fíor-bhuíoch díbh as ucht gach ceartúcháin.

Gumbi

Ní féidir liom rud a aimsiú, ach amháin san absurd deireanach, ina deirtear "beidh" in ionad "bheadh", ach taobh amuigh den bhotún sin, ní cheap aim go bhfuil aon rud cearr leis an aistriúcháin

"Abairt" a bhí i gceist agam in ionad "absurd" above. Cuir an milleán ar an iPhone!

Aodh Rua

Is it correctly "siúil a rúin" or "siúil a rún"? The Wikipedia article says the former but many artists have published songs until the latter spelling.

Which, grammatically, is correct?

Gumbi

Aodh Rua wrote: »

Is it correctly "siúil a rúin" or "siúil a rún"? The Wikipedia article says the former but many artists have published songs until the latter spelling.

Which, grammatically, is correct?

The latter is correct. Genaerally, words are made genitive when invoked in the vocative. A Sheáin A Thomáis etc Terms of endearment, however, aren't put in the genitive, so it stays as rún.

Same situation here: A stóir is incorrect It's A stór.

Aodh Rua

Tá cúpla ceist agam oraibh:

1) "In the case of adjectives with one syllable, an a is attached to the end of nouns ending in a broad consonant, and an e to those ending in a slender consonant: mór (big) fadhbanna móra (big mouths); binn (sweet) guthanna binne (sweet voices)" (Turas Teanga's excellent guide to Irish grammar here.)

Question: Did they mean to say "an a is attached to the end of adjectives"?

2) I have been told that while the gender of a noun determines the gender of the following adjective, an exception to this is when the verb 'Bí' is being used. Then it doesn't matter if the noun is feminine or not. For instance, 'tá an fhuinneog costasach' not 'Tá an fhuinneog chostasach'.

Question: Could anybody clarify the rule here, if there are other exceptions, and why this is so?

Grma.

Aodh Rua

ceist amháin eile: What's the "hats" rule regarding the gender (?) of nouns? Grma arís

mr chips

Re the letter a - yep, that should have said adjectives rather than nouns.

'Tá an fhuinneog costasach' vs 'Tá an fhuinneog chostasach'.
The first one means "the window is expensive". The second one would be part of a longer sentence that starts with "The expensive window is ...", e.g. "Tá an fhuinneog chostasach briste" - the expensive window is broken.

Haven't heard of the "hats" rule, can you elaborate/give any example?

deirdremf

Aodh Rua wrote: »

2) I have been told that while the gender of a noun determines the gender of the following adjective, an exception to this is when the verb 'Bí' is being used. Then it doesn't matter if the noun is feminine or not. For instance, 'tá an fhuinneog costasach' not 'Tá an fhuinneog chostasach'.

Question: Could anybody clarify the rule here, if there are other exceptions, and why this is so?

Grma.

mr chips wrote: »

'Tá an fhuinneog costasach' vs 'Tá an fhuinneog chostasach'.
The first one means "the window is expensive". The second one would be part of a longer sentence that starts with "The expensive window is ...", e.g. "Tá an fhuinneog chostasach briste" - the expensive window is broken.

In the example "tá an fhuinneog costasach", the adjective is not being used to qualify the noun; i.e. it is not part of the semantic unit based on the word "fuinneog". I have seen this described as an adverbial use of the adjective.

So there are three parts to the sentence:
Tá - an fhuinneog - costasach.
the window - is - expensive.

In Mr chips example, he has done the same, but now the word "costasach" is part of the second part of the sentence:
tá - an fhuinneog chostasach - briste.
the expensive window - is - broken.
In this last case, the word "briste" is also an adjective, but is used adverbially, while "costasach" is used attributively, i.e. as an attribute of the window.

We could of course turn this sentence around and say:
Tá an fhuinneog bhriste costasach.
the broken window - is - expensive.
In this case, "briste" is used attributively, while "costasach" is used adverbially.

Finally, if you are familiar with Latin languages, both uses of the adjective would be feminine, which can cause confusion for people who learn a Romance language and Irish
I hope this is of some help.

Gumbi

Gotta correct my own error in terminology above! I meant vocative as opposed to genitive!

Aodh Rua

Grma arís.

Ceann eile:

Táim ag múineadh dóibh (I am teaching them)=> Cén fáth go bhfuil sé mícheart/Why is this incorrect? But apparently I can say 'Táim ag múineadh staire dóibh'. Can somebody explain why?

Should it be something like "Táim á múineadh"? If so, why?

(I know there's a rule about putting the word after the verbal noun into the tuiseal ginideach uatha but I'm not sure if it's connected to this)

deirdremf

Aodh Rua wrote: »

Grma arís.

Ceann eile:

Táim ag múineadh dóibh (I am teaching them)=> Cén fáth go bhfuil sé mícheart/Why is this incorrect? But apparently I can say 'Táim ag múineadh staire dóibh'. Can somebody explain why?

The simple way to say this is "Múineann mé iad". This is probably the best as teaching is something that you do over a period of time, while "tá" is for more immediate matters.
In any case, "dóibh" means "to them", and you wouldn't say this in English either, if that is of any help. You need to teach something to them.

Should it be something like "Táim á múineadh"? If so, why?
(I know there's a rule about putting the word after the verbal noun into the tuiseal ginideach uatha but I'm not sure if it's connected to this)

- Múineann mé iad
- Tá mé á múineadh
- Tá siad á múineadh agam
You could say any of the above, and with an object:
- Múineann mé stair dóibh
- Tá stair á múineadh agam dóibh

You have to be careful with the "á múineadh" construction, as it refers to the student or students, and the initial will have a séimhiú/urú/will be unchanged, depending on whether what you are referring to is masculine/plural/feminine. Obviously in this case, it doesn't change as students are plural and "m" doesn't take an urú.

Aodh Rua

Ar fheabhas arís Deirdre.

Does every noun not belong to a particular declension?

I now know that 'Teach' is second declension and one of the three exceptions to that declension which are masculine.

However, Focal.ie for instance, just records its gender, Fir, and not the declension number (i.e. Fir2). Similarly, Bean is recorded as 'Bain', but no declension is given. Focloir.ie also omits the declension. Why would they leave the declension number out when recording some words?

Grma.

deirdremf

Aodh Rua wrote: »

Ar fheabhas arís Deirdre.

Does every noun not belong to a particular declension?

I now know that 'Teach' is second declension and one of the three exceptions to that declension which are masculine.

However, Focal.ie for instance, just records its gender, Fir, and not the declension number (i.e. Fir2). Similarly, Bean is recorded as 'Bain', but no declension is given. Focloir.ie also omits the declension. Why would they leave the declension number out when recording some words?

Grma.

Declensions in Irish are sort of makey-uppy, trying to fit the Irish language in a structure similar to Latin, with a number of well-defined declensions, but Irish is full of small groups of not-so-well defined words.

Really, what you want to do is just know what the nominative and genitive are. Words generally follow a pattern: one syllable words ending in a broad consonant tend to make the genitive by palatalising the last consonant (in the written language, you put an "i" before the consonant"), one syllable words ending in a narrow consonant tend to add an "e" in the genitive. These are your basic first and second declensions. After that there are all sorts of smaller groups of words which act in various ways. Just learn the patterns, and you won't need to know the official declensions; you'll be able to extrapolate how a word changes.
Far more important is knowing the gender of a noun, in any case, but I assume you already have got that far!

Aodh Rua

I must be missing something basic but here's my question anyway.

I'm looking for the noun 'upheaval'. I got 'suaitheadh' in Focal.ie. In Ó Dónaill. suaitheadh has m. next to it so I presume it is both a noun and masculine. However, neither Ó Dónaill nor Focal.ie give its plural: both only give 'suaite', its genitive singular.

Here's my problem: I want to say "a lot of upheavals" and I know that after "a lán", "mórán" etc the noun changes into the genitive (gen. plural in this case) if the noun is lagiolra, e.g. 'a lán airgid'. It apparently does not change if the noun is treániolra, e.g. a lán fadhbanna. Given the above limitations, how do I work out whether the noun is lagiolra and what its genitive plural case is?


If I said "mórán suaite" would that mean "a lot of upheaval"?

Insect Overlord

I'd say you'd be better off leaving it in the singular. I've never heard "upheavals" used in the plural before. Maybe "periods of upheaval" would be better.

An gal gréine

I dont think 'suaitheadh' is used as a noun so would 'clampar/clampair' do the job? Along with upheaval it can also mean wrangle or commotion.
Círéib/círéibeacha might be too strong as it's most common meaning is 'riot/s' but then it depends on the nature of your upheaval.

Ellfish

Dia dhaoibh,

Tá ceist agam faoi gramadach. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé simplí daoibh, ach táimse beagánín trína céile...
Ba mhaith liom a rá:
"Ba mhór againn bhur mbronntanas flaithiúil."

My problem:
Does the phrase "ba mhór againn..." take the Tuisil Ginideach?

So should it be:
"Ba mhór againn bhur mbronntanais flaithiúil"
ie bronntanas -> bronntanais in TG?

If so, would the Tuisil Ginideach also therefore extend to the adjective "flaithiúil", and if it does would the Tuisil Ginideach of flaithiúil be flaithiúila?

Tá sé beagnach fiche bhliain ó bhí me i scoil, so I've forgotten the intricies of the language, but always trying to learn!!

Go raibh maith agaibh
Ellfish

deirdremf

Ellfish wrote: »

Dia dhaoibh,

Tá ceist agam faoi gramadach. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé simplí daoibh, ach táimse beagánín trína céile...
Ba mhaith liom a rá:
"Ba mhór againn bhur mbronntanas flaithiúil."

My problem:
Does the phrase "ba mhór againn..." take the Tuisil Ginideach?

No, it doesn't take an tuiseal ginideach.
But I was wondering one thing: why do you say "ba mhór" - would it not be more natural to say "is mór"? Of course if the bronntanas is now briste, caite amach or whatever, "ba mhór" would make sense. But if it's still good, I'd go for "is mór"

For grammar questions, go to this site:
http://193.1.97.44/focloir/
Put in the word e.g. flaithiúil
And it gives you the various forms, which I have copied below.
Is suiomh thar a bheith úsáideach é!!!
flaithiúil - aidiacht
flaithiúil[ainmneach uatha ]
flaithiúil[ginideach firinscneach ]
flaithiúla[ginideach baininscneach ]
flaithiúla[ainmneach iolra / ginideach tréaniolra]
flaithiúil[ginideach iolra lag]
flaithiúla[breischéim ]

Gumbi

I disagree. You can be referring to how you felt at that time. Ba mhór is fine in that case.