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Beagán gramadaí

  • 27-11-2011 8:29pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭ deirdremf


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    When two nouns come together the second noun is put in the genitive. Fair enough. But why is it 'barr dorais' but 'dath an tí', 'hata an fhir' and so on? If 'barr dorais' means 'top of the door', why can't 'dath tí' could mean 'colour of the house'? Doras, teach and fear are all masculine so can somebody enlighten me here with a rule? Thanks a million.

    'barr dorais' top of A door
    'dath an tí', 'hata an fhir' the colour of THE house, the hat of THE man/ the man's hat

    I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ Aodh Rua


    deirdremf wrote: »
    'barr dorais' top of A door
    'dath an tí', 'hata an fhir' the colour of THE house, the hat of THE man/ the man's hat

    I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.

    Ah, completely. Thanks very much.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ Aodh Rua


    leis an turas chuig an gcistin anraith = with his journey to the soup kitchen?

    Not sure about what happens 'anraith'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭ deirdremf


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    leis an turas chuig an gcistin anraith = with his journey to the soup kitchen?

    Not sure about what happens 'anraith'.
    Nothing, as it happens.
    This is a great site for grammatical forms of words:
    http://193.1.97.44/focloir/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ Aodh Rua


    deirdremf wrote: »
    Nothing, as it happens.
    This is a great site for grammatical forms of words:
    http://193.1.97.44/focloir/

    Thanks again. 2300 words down; lots of grammar checking and 700 words to go. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ Aodh Rua


    Just checked that site. I was putting ''Más rud é go bhféadfaidh sé anraith a fháil, shíl sé, bheadh sé beo go ceann lá eile.' (if it was a thing that he could get soup, he thought, he would live for another day'.)

    But having looked at the site it should be 'Más rud é go bhféada sé anraith a fháil, shíl sé, bheadh sé beo go ceann lá eile.'??


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭ deirdremf


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Just checked that site. I was putting ''Más rud é go bhféadfaidh sé anraith a fháil, shíl sé, bheadh sé beo go ceann lá eile.' (if it was a thing that he could get soup, he thought, he would live for another day'.)

    But having looked at the site it should be 'Más rud é go bhféada sé anraith a fháil, shíl sé, bheadh sé beo go ceann lá eile.'??
    bhféadfadh

    Oíche mhaith!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ Aodh Rua


    A quick question for anybody out there: does the gender of the noun matter at all in the plural?

    So far it seems that the adjective qualifying a noun must also be plural - e.g. laethanta deacra.
    Does gender play any role in the interaction between adjectives and nouns in the plural?

    Grma.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭ Aard


    I did a bit of googling and found this:
    "Séimhiú ar aidiacht i ndiaidh ainmfhocail san uimhir iolra a chríochnaíonn ar chonsan, m.sh. capaill mhóra, crainn ghlasa; consan lom ar aidiacht i ndiaidh ainmfhocail san uimhir iolra a chríochnaíonn ar ghuta, m.sh. buachaillí dána, cailíní breátha"

    Basically, if the noun ends in a consonant in the plural, the adjective gets a séimhiú. If it ends in a vowel, no change. Never actually knew this myself!

    http://www.ucc.ie/acad/mi/cursai/gramadachnua/grnua4.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,912 pog it


    That must be because of the consan caol more so than the consonant itself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭ Aard


    Yeah, caol+séimhiú seems to be the pattern throughout the language.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭ deirdremf


    Aard wrote: »
    I did a bit of googling and found this:
    "Séimhiú ar aidiacht i ndiaidh ainmfhocail san uimhir iolra a chríochnaíonn ar chonsan, m.sh. capaill mhóra, crainn ghlasa; consan lom ar aidiacht i ndiaidh ainmfhocail san uimhir iolra a chríochnaíonn ar ghuta, m.sh. buachaillí dána, cailíní breátha"

    Basically, if the noun ends in a consonant in the plural, the adjective gets a séimhiú. If it ends in a vowel, no change. Never actually knew this myself!

    http://www.ucc.ie/acad/mi/cursai/gramadachnua/grnua4.html
    But only if the consonant is preceeded by an "i", i.e. if it is a narrow consonant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭ Aard


    I can't even think of any plurals that end in a broad consonant tbh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 Enkidu


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    A quick question for anybody out there: does the gender of the noun matter at all in the plural?

    So far it seems that the adjective qualifying a noun must also be plural - e.g. laethanta deacra.
    Does gender play any role in the interaction between adjectives and nouns in the plural?

    Grma.
    Irish has no gender in the plural Aodh, for historical reasons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 Enkidu


    Actually in older Irish (circa 1900) the plural could affect the adjective beyond the slender consonant + lenite rule of today.

    In the genitive plural you had eclipses:
    mná na stocaí mbána.

    In the dative singular as well:
    Chuimhnigh sé ar an sparán agus ar an bhFear nDubh

    Really helpful for old books!

    Also watch out for the dative plural:
    leis na fearaibh - with the men

    It's basically always (nominative/normal singular) + (a)ibh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,912 pog it


    deirdremf wrote: »
    But only if the consonant is preceeded by an "i", i.e. if it is a narrow consonant.

    See my post above! :)

    i.e consan caol.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ Aodh Rua


    "in St Joseph's Church" = "i Séipéal San Sheosaimh"?

    Séipéal = masculine
    San = ?
    Seosamh= ?

    I know it should be "San" rather than "Naomh" because Joseph's not an Irish saint. I am not, however, sure on what is genitive and nominative above, and therefore the spellings. Would anybody be able to clarify? Grma.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭ deirdremf


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    "in St Joseph's Church" = "i Séipéal San Sheosaimh"?

    Séipéal = masculine
    San = ?
    Seosamh= ?

    I know it should be "San" rather than "Naomh" because Joseph's not an Irish saint. I am not, however, sure on what is genitive and nominative above, and therefore the spellings. Would anybody be able to clarify? Grma.
    I think Naomh rather than San here; he's a traditional saint.

    As for Seosamh being in the genitive, there would be two views on that: there is no possession involved, so you will probably see both versions.
    Do a google for "séipéal naomh" or "séipéal san" and see what versions follow. Choose the most common!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭ Micilin Muc


    deirdremf wrote: »
    I think Naomh rather than San here; he's a traditional saint.

    As for Seosamh being in the genitive, there would be two views on that: there is no possession involved, so you will probably see both versions.
    Do a google for "séipéal naomh" or "séipéal san" and see what versions follow. Choose the most common!

    The rule according to the Christian Brothers Irish Grammar is that no genitive ever follows 'Naomh' or 'San'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ Aodh Rua


    I want to say 'Love and Loyalty'. Is this 'Grá 7 Dílse' or 'Grá 7 Dílseacht'?

    The usually superb (and free) An Gum Irish Dictionary app on my android phone returns 'dílse' as the Irish for both 'loyalty' and 'fidelity'.

    However, most of the results here for 'loyalty' have 'dílseacht'.

    Irishionary has both:
    dílse nf4 allegiance, loyalty, pledge
    dílseacht nf allegiance, commitment, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty

    What, if anything, is the difference between both words? Which would be best to use for the above? Grma.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,697 ✭✭✭ Gumbi


    I am aware of no difference between them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,286 Gael


    Gumbi wrote: »
    I am aware of no difference between them.

    Me neither. It's just like difríocht/difear; both two words to say the exact same thing. One form may be more common in a particular dialectic area than the other, but the meaning is the same.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭ Micilin Muc


    'Dílseacht' is the concept, whereas 'dílse' is the trait. Mar shampla:

    Tá dílse ar leith aici dá bpáistí thar a col ceathracha (trait)

    Tá an dílseacht ina téama láidir sa dán seo (concept)


    Dílse/dílseacht aren't verbal nouns, but the Christian Brothers explain the similar concept of two different verbal nouns for the same verb, for example 'léamh' and 'léitheoireacht' for the verb 'léigh'.

    "Na cinn is faide, is iondúil go léiríonn siad leanúnachas, minicíocht, teibíocht, torann, treise, srl., rud nach ndéanann na cinn ghairide."

    So it all depends on the context for "Love and Loyalty"...


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,697 ✭✭✭ Gumbi


    Gael wrote: »
    Gumbi wrote: »
    I am aware of no difference between them.

    Me neither. It's just like difríocht/difear; both two words to say the exact same thing. One form may be more common in a particular dialectic area than the other, but the meaning is the same.
    I think it's deifir :) which means hurry, but difference in Munster :) we use deabhadh for hurry. Bhí deabhadh orm etc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ Aodh Rua


    'Dílseacht' is the concept, whereas 'dílse' is the trait. Mar shampla:

    Tá dílse ar leith aici dá bpáistí thar a col ceathracha (trait)

    Tá an dílseacht ina téama láidir sa dán seo (concept)


    Dílse/dílseacht aren't verbal nouns, but the Christian Brothers explain the similar concept of two different verbal nouns for the same verb, for example 'léamh' and 'léitheoireacht' for the verb 'léigh'.

    "Na cinn is faide, is iondúil go léiríonn siad leanúnachas, minicíocht, teibíocht, torann, treise, srl., rud nach ndéanann na cinn ghairide."

    So it all depends on the context for "Love and Loyalty"...

    Go diail a mhicilín; táim an-bhuíoch díot as an difríocht a mhiniú. Tá ceist eile agam duit/daoibh, áfach. Cad é an slí is fearr ar 'Our Wedding Mass' a rá? An bhfuil sé 'Aifreann ár mBainis', 'Aifreann ár mBainise', 'Aifreann ár bpósadh', 'Ceiliúradh Aifrinn (sp?) ár bPósadh'(de réir mo chara i gCorca Dhuibhne úsáidtear ‘pósadh’ seachas ‘bainis’ maidir leis an tAifreann agus ‘bainis’ don bhéile amháin) - cé acu is fearr nó an bhfuil focail níos oiriúnaí le húsáid ina thaobh?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭ Micilin Muc


    An bhainis is ea an ceiliúradh a dhéantar ag an óstán. Tarlaíonn an pósadh sa séipéal/sa Chlárlann.

    Our Wedding Mass = Aifreann ár bPósta

    Ach is deise "Ár bPósadh", más ar an leabhrán don aifreann atá sé le cur!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ Aodh Rua


    An bhainis is ea an ceiliúradh a dhéantar ag an óstán. Tarlaíonn an pósadh sa séipéal/sa Chlárlann.

    Our Wedding Mass = Aifreann ár bPósta

    Ach is deise "Ár bPósadh", más ar an leabhrán don aifreann atá sé le cur!


    Grma arís, a Mhicilín. Bhíomar ag smaoineamh mar gheall ar an focal ‘ár’ ar an leabhrán agus nílimid chun ‘ár’ a úsáid ag deireadh an lae. Dá bhrí sin, conas a déarfá ‘Wedding Mass’ amháin: 'Aifreann Pósadh' nó ‘Aifreann Pósta’?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 Enkidu


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    What, if anything, is the difference between both words? Which would be best to use for the above? Grma.
    I'm only adding to what Micilin Muc said. Irish has three main methods for converting adjectives into abstract nouns. Namely:

    1. Comparative form of adjective.
    2. Add -(e)as.
    3. Add -(e)acht or -(a)íocht.

    Sometimes two or three of the methods are equally valid:
    binne, binneas, binneacht.

    Usually the one formed via (1.) has an additional meaning. e.g. all of these mean sweetness or melody, but only binne means harmony.

    dílse and dílseacht are both loyalty, but dílse (formed by (1.)) has the additional meaning of loyalty to something as a trait (with the preposition do).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭ Micilin Muc


    Aodh Rua wrote: »
    Grma arís, a Mhicilín. Bhíomar ag smaoineamh mar gheall ar an focal ‘ár’ ar an leabhrán agus nílimid chun ‘ár’ a úsáid ag deireadh an lae. Dá bhrí sin, conas a déarfá ‘Wedding Mass’ amháin: 'Aifreann Pósadh' nó ‘Aifreann Pósta’?

    I would write 'Aifreann an Phósta'!

    Go n-éirí leis na hullmhúcháin :) Tá sé go maith go bhfuil Gaeilgeoirí ag pósadh!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,286 Gael


    Gumbi wrote: »
    I think it's deifir :) which means hurry, but difference in Munster :) we use deabhadh for hurry. Bhí deabhadh orm etc

    It's definitely spelt 'difear' in the dictionaries, as opposed to 'deifir', but there may be some pronunciation variation that I'm not aware of in some areas.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭ Micilin Muc


    Gael wrote: »

    It's definitely spelt 'difear' in the dictionaries, as opposed to 'deifir', but there may be some pronunciation variation that I'm not aware of in some areas.

    Dineen dictionary has an interesting entry on difear/deifir. They appear to be the same word. Will post tomorrow.


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