Does Ireland Need a Military?

Morpheus

well we just lost a brigade anyway...
http://http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/Release+ID/018F09FE330A22D78025795D0059F964?OpenDocument

dodgydes

Morphéus wrote: »

well we just lost a brigade anyway...

Probably be the western brigade, they seem to be the whipping boys, lost 5 or 6 bks already in recent years.

Leonidas BL

What a shambles

trendyvicar

Looks like the wind ups beginning - it's for the best.

OS119

Leonidas BL wrote: »

What a shambles

not really - the 2 Bde structure has been recommended for the IA for donkeys years. the IA, both PDF and RDF could never support the 3x structure, it was always a fallacy.

this a structure that allegedly has 18(?) theoretical infantry Bn's, yet some of those Bn's would be hard pushed to put two Pln's in the field, theoretically supported by 6 Artillery Regiments that only have access to enough guns for one Artillery Regiment.

end the charade.

goldie fish

dodgydes wrote: »

Probably be the western brigade, they seem to be the whipping boys, lost 5 or 6 bks already in recent years.

Every brigade, as we know it is gone. This regional structure iis fine for mainland russia. but when you can get from one brigage hq to another in anything between 2 hours to 30 minutes--by road... you realise that the 3 brigade structure is just to keep the top brass in jobs.

It isnt opsec to say we only have enough guns for one arty rgt, enough apcs for one company, and enough armoured recce vehicles for one cav sqn.
The rest is just a paper exercise and it is about time the Colonels and Generals got a reality check. God knows the Privates and NCOs have been living in the same world as the rest of us since well before the celtic tiger began..

Leonidas BL

I suppose that twin engines trainer for the air corps is out of the question lol.

Poccington

So, when are the General Staff gonna break the news that at least one of the GOC's are gonna be getting demoted? :rolleyes:


Bout time they made the poxy change. Maybe they'll stop living in opposite land now and realise the reality of how things are in the Units. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE GET RID OF THAT OTHER PLANET THAT'S DISGUISING ITSELF AS THE EQUITATION SCHOOL!?

ChunkyLover_53

GOC East is retiring in February AFAIK.

I doubt they will promote someone new into the vacancy, but anything can happen these days.

goldie fish

DCOS retired in september and still hasn't been replaced either.

Morpheus

Poccington wrote: »

So, when are the General Staff gonna break the news that at least one of the GOC's are gonna be getting demoted? :rolleyes:


Bout time they made the poxy change. Maybe they'll stop living in opposite land now and realise the reality of how things are in the Units. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE GET RID OF THAT OTHER PLANET THAT'S DISGUISING ITSELF AS THE EQUITATION SCHOOL!?

Its not theyre any use either!!!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/twomeys-hopes-hit-as-army-horses-ruled-out-of-olympic-bid-2946503.html

Avgas

Yes, it was going to happen sooner rather than later.
The problem is I’m not sure it will be anything other than a hatchet job rather than a serious rethink......:(
like the need to orient more towards the Marine....
like to need to sort out the mess of our reserves which are strategically important in the long term and vital in a short-term context where the DF shrinks.....
like the need to get an air corps that is relevant....
The reduction of capital expenditure down from 12m to 9m is pitiful...what does 9m buy any DF these days?........
Given further reductions required in Budgets 2013 and 2014......that could fall even further.......if one was historically minded it seems very much like the lean years of the early 1930s all over again....and yet we know how that decade ended!:rolleyes:

OS119

Avgas wrote: »

...what does 9m buy any DF these days?........

depends what you buy - you could get 300 7.62mm DM rifles with optics and 300 5.56mm Minimi fire-team automatic weapons for €2m, (that's enough to equip 6 full strength Inf Bn's and all of the RDF's effective infantry) and use the remaining €7m to exercise the crap out of the RDF.

lots of the things that could radically improve the PDF/RDF are either free, cut costs or are cost neutral - they just require political will to drive them through.

personally i agree with you on the strategic issues - our corner of the world is in for a good decade of political and economic instability with lots of blame and recrimination between nations being thrown around: personally i'm not absolutely convinced that it's the best time to be cutting defence budgets and allowing DF's to remain blunt, light and inaccurate...

Avgas

OS119 wrote: »

lots of the things that could radically improve the PDF/RDF are either free, cut costs or are cost neutral - they just require political will to drive them through.
.

Interesting OS119....would you care to list free stuff that we could be/should be doing?
Stuff that would save money or cost neutral?

OS119

Avgas wrote: »

...Stuff that would save money or cost neutral?

easy stuff first: abolish the current unit structure of the RDF - its a 3 All-Arms Bde structure without the active personnel to man a single Bde, let alone 3 - form single, national units that only parade at weekends at manned PDF locations.

reduce the deadwood in the RDF by conducting minimum fitness tests every 6 months. fail and you've 2 weeks to pass, fail again and you're out.

reduce the 'magic roundabout' of endless basic training - and its appalling effect on retention - by marketing the RDF a more mature, settled people in their mid twenties rather than endless 17yo's who then go to college and work and discover women and sunday mornings in bed.

get rid of 80% of the PDF/RDF cadre - without umpteen different units in umpteen different locations you need far less permament staff. use regular PDF Bde staff to further reduce the need for PS - the Inf Captain booking a range for X PDF Coy can easily book a range for an RDF inf Coy at the same time.

don't be afraid to make PDF soldiers support RDF training and exercises by making them work weekends.

get rid of the allowances that members of the PDF get to do the job they already get a salary for.

dodgydes

OS119 wrote: »

...don't be afraid to make PDF soldiers support RDF training and exercises by making them work weekends.

get rid of the allowances that members of the PDF get to do the job they already get a salary for.

And you were doing so well until the last two points..

Now you want me to work <more> weekends and cut my pay even further by getting rid of the paltry allowances.

ChunkyLover_53

Get rid of allowances?

The allowances the members of the Other Ranks of the Defence Forces of Ireland
recieve on a regular basis would be Security Duty Allowance for 24 hour or less than 24 duties,
Subsistance Allowance for not being supplied rations or accomodation
or Public Transport Rate Allowances for being sent outside of their brigade area for the likes of a course of instruction and only if no Military Transport is available to bring them, otherwise it private motor vehicles like evryone else.
Overseas Allowance is also there but is only paid to personnel serving in Mission Areas.

Other allowances exist, for example Instructors allowance, and Technicians Pay for Highly Qualified personnel.

Military Service Allowance is paid weekly and supplements Basic Pay, MSA was introduced to supplement a Soldiers Basic Wage back in the 80s as it was a meager sum for anyone to be living on during that period. It also covers the cost of the exegencies of Military Service.

All allowances are sanctioned by Commisioned Officers and in turn are then sanctioned by Civil Servants in Travel & Subsistance Section or Soldiers Pay Section of the Dept. of Defence (or whatever the long winded version is these days)
Which in turn has been legislated for and sanctioned by the Minister of Defence and possibly nowadays by Dept. of Finance.

As far as I am aware a lot these allowances are dropping by 5% after Tuesdays budget.

Please don't try and insinuate that members of the Defence Forces of Ireland (be they Reserve or Permanent) are in some way fleecing the State with cushy allowances claims or taking the piss out of others on a less fortunate wage by claiming them, because you would be wrong.

However, even if the Minister in his wisdom, decided to terminate these allowances, the vast majority of members would continue to serve their country without hesitation, allowances or not.

OS119

dodgydes wrote: »

And you were doing so well until the last two points..

Now you want me to work <more> weekends and cut my pay even further by getting rid of the paltry allowances.

sorry, but i have no moral problem with a soldier being required to work weekends if his CoC believe that that is required to promote military efficiency. its a 'cold', 'wet', 'tired' thing - don't want to get cold, wet, tired and to have to work unsocial hours? don't join the Army.

i've had to do it, sometimes i've had days off in lieu, but sometimes not.

i also don't beleive that you should get an allowance for doing something that so obviously falls within your salaried duties - the pay cuts, USC and other tax rises fall outside of this argument because they both apply to everyone else and have nothing to do with military efficiency, they merely happen to be occurring at the same time.

dodgydes

I don't see any problem working weekends on a regular basis if time in lieu was given, but I could see a situation developing where soldiers would work all week including weekends

OS119 wrote: »

i also don't beleive that you should get an allowance for doing something that so obviously falls within your salaried duties.

I have to agree with you here, for example, the Pdforra debacle last year looking for allowances for the 'snow patrol' .

ChunkyLover_53

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1207/army.html

Army to be maintained at 9,500 - Shatter

Updated: 18:19, Wednesday, 7 December 2011

Minister for Defence Alan Shatter has said the strength of the army will be maintained at 9,500.
Alan Shatter has said there will be a major streamlining of the army

Minister for Defence Alan Shatter has said that while the strength of the Defence Forces will be maintained at 9,500 there will be a major streamlining of the organisation.

He said this will include a reduction in the number of Army Brigades from three to two which will free up military personnel from administrative and support functions.

After the budget announcement on Monday, both PDFORRA and RACO - who represent enlisted personnel and officers - expressed disappointment and surprise at the Minister's move.

Chief of Staff Lt Gen Sean McCann said the Defence Forces will set about reorganising their structures as directed by the Minister in order to continue to deliver efficient, flexible and effective capability to the State.

Speaking in the Dáil this afternoon, Mr Shatter said the reduction in the number of Army Brigades will require a re-defining of territorial areas of responsibility, but further barrack closures are not envisaged as part of this process.

The organisation of the Reserve Defence Force is also being examined.

The Minister said consolidation of the Defence Forces formations into a smaller number of locations has always been a key objective of the Defence modernisation programme.

The location of personnel in a large number of locations has created major difficulties in the provision of collective training, while the manning and security of non-essential barracks takes personnel away from operational duties.

It also imposes unnecessary costs and overheads on the Defence Forces in terms of barrack management, administration and maintenance.

In addition to the reduction in strength, a range of cost reduction measures are being introduced to deliver savings. These include the reprioritisation of equipment plans and associated planned reductions in procurement expenditure.

The procurement of the two naval vessels will continue from within the reduced Defence allocation. The first new naval vessel is scheduled for delivery in early 2014 with the second following one year later.

Leonidas BL

Dear God,

Your love for music (Amy Winehouse, and Michael Jackson), sports (Gary Speed and Socrates) and technology (Steve Jobs) is now beyond all doubt. May we suggest that you take keen interest in Politics as well.

OS119

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Dear God,

Your love for music (Amy Winehouse, and Michael Jackson), sports (Gary Speed and Socrates) and technology (Steve Jobs) is now beyond all doubt. May we suggest that you take keen interest in Politics as well.

i'm not really known here for my admiration of the Irish political class, but i'm struggling to see your points (and i use the term charitably).

apart from an opinion that 'the DF needs investment, direction and restructuring', which is a view hardly unique to you - do you believe that the govt is wrong to move to a 2 Bde structure, and if so, why?

Leonidas BL

OS119 wrote: »

i'm not really known here for my admiration of the Irish political class, but i'm struggling to see your points (and i use the term charitably).

apart from an opinion that 'the DF needs investment, direction and restructuring', which is a view hardly unique to you - do you believe that the govt is wrong to move to a 2 Bde structure, and if so, why?

The 2 bde isnt what im worried about. But how can they expect a military to run on such a low budget and than cut it even more???

Leonidas BL

Avgas wrote: »

If one was historically minded it seems very much like the lean years of the early 1930s all over again....and yet we know how that decade ended!:rolleyes:

That comment is what im afraid will happen

OS119

Leonidas BL wrote: »

The 2 bde isnt what im worried about. But how can they expect a military to run on such a low budget and than cut it even more???

it depends what you think they want it for.

if its to enable Ireland to fight off a Combined Arms operation to relieve it of a nice long runway next to the west coast, or to take a walk in rural Helmand province should the desire take it, then the DF is underfunded/badly organised et al. if however the purpose of the DF is to look nice on the 2016 celebrations, do some CIT's that every other european state uses armed police for, and to provide free labour to county councils whenever it snows or rains, then the DF is very well funded indeed.

timhorgan

OS:

Michael Collins wanted to use the Swiss model for the Irish Army. it is interesting that today there are less than 5,000 professionals in the Swiss Army but they run probably the most effective army in Europe-mainly conscripts or volunteers.

The armed forces consist of 134,886 people on active duty (in Switzerland called Angehöriger der Armee, shortly AdA, engl.: Member of the Army), of which 4,230 are professionals, with the rest being conscripts or volunteers.[1] Women, for whom military service is voluntary, numbered 1,050: less than 1% of the total, but 25% of career soldiers.[1] Once decided to serve, they have the same rights and duties as their male colleagues, and they can join all services, including combat units. Recruits are generally instructed in their native language; however, the small number of Romansh-speaking recruits are instructed in German.
In contrast to most other comparable armies, officer candidates are usually not career regulars: after seven weeks of basic training, selected recruits are offered the possibility of a cadre function. Officer candidate schools take place separately from NCOs training, but NCOs have the possibility of becoming officers later on.[8] There are currently 17,506 officers and 22,650 NCOs in the Swiss Armed Forces.[1]

Good article here that addresses many of the problems from a Swiss perspective.

http://www.revue.ch/files/SRV_0109_E.pdf

OS119 wrote: »

not really - the 2 Bde structure has been recommended for the IA for donkeys years. the IA, both PDF and RDF could never support the 3x structure, it was always a fallacy.

this a structure that allegedly has 18(?) theoretical infantry Bn's, yet some of those Bn's would be hard pushed to put two Pln's in the field, theoretically supported by 6 Artillery Regiments that only have access to enough guns for one Artillery Regiment.

end the charade.

Avgas

Thanks Tim for the link to the Swiss DF debate. However, I don’t think the Swiss situation or model is very relevant for Ireland.

First, the Swiss are filthy rich and able to afford loads of military hardware, and much of it they make themselves and have been doing so for years, whereas we are broke and don’t even make our own uniforms.

Okay, we have a 9m euro capital budget only a portion of which can be spent on new equipment.

Second, Switzerland does not have to worry about Category 5 hurricanes off the Labadies and Spanish trawlermen who need to be winched off 14 hours ago, or oil slicks generated by exotic visitors to our waters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Cork_oil_spill

A better country to compare us with is actually Iceland (and Yes I know they are formal members of NATO and we’re not...but just go with it...trust me...)

Both are really small wet and miserable Islands.

Both countries like a drink (...:rolleyes:.).

They have more blonds we have more redheads...eh..not sure where that is going......

Both countries we colonized by their thoughtful European neighbors, but the Americans do that now through business, golf and The Wire.

As regards their economic status and ability to afford any defence force, both Ireland and Iceland are Banana type Republics that borrow and spend more than they can ever earn, both states are broke (although Iceland may be recovering http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/15/magazine/icelands-big-economic-thaw.html?pagewanted=all. )

Iceland have no army, but do have a coastguard which is arguably as efficient as our naval service on the Slim-fast plan.

They have three oldish OPVs which are quite like our old Emer class, replete with 40mm Bofors. BUT they actually used these in anger (and other boats) to more or less beat the crap out of the Royal Navy during the Cod War(s) and could teach anyone a thing or two about ramming technique.

They have just got a new OPV which is bigger than than our Eithne and more weather proof.

They operate 2 Super Puma proper long range SAR choppers......a bread and butter essential mission or job our Air Corps disdained or was denied them by their political masters (depending on who you hear the story from).....they rented 2 more super pumas when the US left.... but have given that up because they can’t pay for them...and they have one....yes one .....Dash 8 for maritime patrol/SAR top cover.......

For a land army they have the Icelandic Crisis Response Unit which is an expeditionary platoon (yes really...) drawn mainly from the Coast Guard and a few other emergency services. They get Norwegian basic infantry 101, and have been deployed to Astan ...not doing a whole lot there AFAIK....but I can and will be no doubt corrected on that one.....

They don’t have an ARW but their cops have a ERU clone in the Viking Squad......

The Americans and their F15s etc. simply pulled out in 2006 ...because somebody called Bush thought the Ruskis were not the probably anymore ...and left them with a neat basic radar monitoring network...something we don’t have...(and please a few radars with RBS70s are not........in the ballpark....)

And for a much more refined view:
http://www.stofnanir.hi.is/ams/sites/files/ams/At%20a%20Crossroads_Einar_Benediktsson.pdf

The point being?

Plucky, broke little bad-boy Iceland has got more cojones (and fish) than best good-boy of the EU class, little Ireland.
They got the choppers they need (we don’t).
They have not forgotten they are an Island (we have).
They prioritize the marine...we should do likewise. ...but prioritize the Equitation school.
They do scary peacekeeping in Nissan patrols (checkmate!).
They do it small-scale, on the cheap and have no delusions of grandeur at being able to offer anything other than small tactical packages that they co-train, deploy and resource with friendly neighbor Norway...is there a lesson for us somewhere there?

For a tiny place with just over 300,000 (200,000 less than our population in Connaught!)...what they have achieved......in the defence/security area....is quite impressive...

Admittedly, they’ve never had to patrol Hackballs cross in the rain............
http://wikimapia.org/7456699/Hackballs-Cross

Cork boy 55

In terms of population and size of economy and role
the best countries to compare are new zealand and finland.

OS119

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

In terms of population and size of economy and role
the best countries to compare are new zealand and finland.

the problem being however that neither of those countries has an internal security problem (or a potential internal security problem) to deal with in addition to its external security problem.

Irelands problem is, IMV, a cash problem that causes a doctrine problem. i think that all here accept that Ireland has an internal security issue (best case is a continuation of the current security state, worst case is unification with NI turning into Bosnia), an external security issue purely due to its location on the SLOC's between the US and Europe, and a 'foreign involvement' issue with regards to its history/policy of UN PK operations and what looks to me like the ever greater european political requirement for Ireland to contribute militarily to EU security operations on its periphery.

effectively it has three defence requirements but barely wants to pay for one of them.

one option that removes one of the issues would be to join NATO - it removes the territorial defence requirement and leaves Ireland with the IS and PK requirements. it would mean ditching the Army and using the money to radically beef up the NS/AC maritime capability and to take AGS's ERU from 50-odd Armed Officers to 1500 Armed Officers. i personally would suggest that its the 'better' answer (not neccesarily a brilliant answer, but unless the government wants to triple the defence budget, there aren't any brilliant answers), it covers the IS issue, and would allow a continuation of PK contribution, albeit with police capability rather than military capability.

its not ideal, it only allows Ireland to deal with a certain level of Internal threat, and it means that Ireland would be wholly dependant on NATO for its external security - but the status quo isn't that brilliant either: Ireland couldn't put half as many troops into a flared up NI as the UK did - and they weren't enough, and its protection from external threats is, err... a bit limited.

without lots of cash all possibilities are going to be compromises - its just a matter of working out whats critical, what you can off-load, what you can generate at short-notice, and what problems might be generated by a loss of particular capabilities.

Fiatach

The 26 county army hid behind the border while Irishmen and women took on British forces in the fields and in the streets across the six counties. With the country facing aggression from Britain, the Free Staters where nowhere to be seen. Youths armed only with stones attacked British forces showing more heroism that the so called 'Irish army' ever did. The Staters probably collaborated with Britain like they did in the early 20's.
It's time they disbanded, they have no purpose to exist.