Does Ireland Need a Military?

TheLoneGunmen

blowing in the wind wrote: »

This is the long debated topic, that some bitter (i'd imagine) person want's to have a crack at the easy target within the public sector, Ie, The Defence Forces.

Care to elaborate? I started this thread in the context of a (largely) democratic state attempting to re-evaluate it's priorities in the wake of the economic collapse. I have been content to listen to a wide variety of opinions, many of which seem well informed. But your assertion that a well-trained and heavilly armed group of people are an "easy target" is ludicrous. If schools, hospitals, the unemployed, mothers, the civil service, capital expenditure and every other sector in society have to take a hit in the budget, why shouldn't the military too? Especially since most of what they currently do can be done by other agencies, and the rest is of debateable importance.

An armed gendarmerie, of say 2500 men could well take care of any risk from the IRA (in any of it's manifestations), as well as doing CIT and any other such functions. They could be responsible for drug enforcement, counter-terrorism and organised crime operations, leaving the Gardai to concentrate on ordinary crimes such as non gang related murders, white collar and computer crimes, burglaries, fraud, etc. This would cost a fraction of what the Army does currently.

The argument that the army would be of any significant use during an invasion is doubtful. Any invasion would likely be by a major world power with vast resources in terms of weapons, man-power and industrial capacity. No level of expenditure by the government could prevent such an invasion, and in fact any actions by the Irish Army during, or following an invasion would in all liklihood precipitate a disproportionate and crushing response from the occupiers - see the Nazi response to the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich, for instance. The best thing the Irish Army could do would be to do nothing, and wait for some other world power to liberate us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heydrich

tweedledee

Seriously Milk & Honey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!A coup d'etat???hahahahahahahaa, thanks for the comedy, I nearly fell off my chair after I read that :):)
Irish people taking part in a coup d'etat!!!!!!!!! for Gods sake getting an Irish person up off their behind to go and protest is IMPOSSIBLE let alone take over a country, hahahhahahaa that just cracked me up. I think I just wet myself hahahahahaha.
Ohh personally I think our defence forces should be scrapped. For such a small unit it costs the taxpayer a fortune. Navy should be structured like a Coast Guard, Air Corps is just a training school for Aer Lingus and Ryanair, apart from bomb disposal I can't see any benefit to IRELAND by having an extremely well paid but pointless military. NO one is going to invade Ireland for Gods sake, we are well able ourselves to destroy this place if we want to.

tweedledee

The days of armies invading the west are loooooooong gone, financial assault is how they do it now, thats happining as we speak, Germany trying to make Europe into a federal state, by financial methods.
Scrap the Air Corps and Army and increase the Gardai, create a bigger armed response unit in the Gardai like another poster said.
Army though will never be dumped. Too many well healed and well connected elite with vested interests in both Defence Force itself and Cadet College.The amount of back scratching that goes on to get Cadetships is not funny.

TheLoneGunmen

tweedledee wrote: »

The days of armies invading the west are loooooooong gone, financial assault is how they do it now, thats happining as we speak, Germany trying to make Europe into a federal state, by financial methods.

Agreed. But we can't blame the Germans for the monumental foul-up that was the "Celtic Tiger", and the bank bailouts that inevitibly followed. We should be grateful that they pulled us out of the fire, and prevented the collapse of the state. Who do you blame when it's our own fault, collectively speaking? We don't even have the British to blame anymore...

Leonidas BL

Lets build up our military and invade iceland and greenland and steal all there oil :P

tweedledee

This is waaaaay off topic but I agree with you,its not the Germans fault, I never said it was, but their aim is a federal state of Europe. Irish people are 100% to blame for the current woes, not anybody else, we always feck up our own affaires and blame somebody else, its the Irish way, never accept responsibility, deny everything. But Army is still a pointless waste of my taxes.

TheLoneGunmen

A waste of taxes and man-power that could be put to better use. I've no problem with a federal Europe, as long as it becomes more democratic and transparent - I've always seen myself as being European.

goldie fish

TheLoneGunmen wrote: »

A waste of taxes and man-power that could be put to better use. I've no problem with a federal Europe, as long as it becomes more democratic and transparent - I've always seen myself as being European.

What "better" use do you suggest?
Please tell me where the less than $0.9bn a year we spend on the DF should go?

Morpheus

very good....

i have VERY little time to reply, but here are my muddled thoughts on the SH*TE ive read here from some very misguided and ill informed people.

so first of all disband the MOST efficiently run department in govt? which has a budget of 0.9Bn?

one that should be in fact, held up as an example of a value for money solution in how to run a civil service, to ALL of its other over-budget monster siblings?

then let the likes of the HSE (FINANCIAL BLACK HOLE!!!) and dept of justice and Dept of marine , recruit thousands MORE staff at their HIGHER wage rates, to do the work that the army already do for much lower paid staff?

EVEN when you take allowances etc into account?

and THEN to top it ALL off, these extra staff, hired at a higher cost to the tax payer,

to do the same work as someone who was already in place,

will f**k off and join a UNION so that when the govt tells them to go clean the snow off your door step
or to go over seas in a policing role with the UN
or to head up to donegal and storm a terrorist building,
or to remove the few hundred bombs from our streets each year,

that they can turn around, flip the bird, wave their UNITE flag and ask for MORE cash??

(in case you werent aware, the army cannot join a union and actually cannot strike like the HSE etc everytime someone changes the ink in their biros.)

ha!

im now the one falling off my seat!

Cardinal Richelieu

Morphéus wrote: »

very good....

i have VERY little time to reply, but here are my muddled thoughts on the SH*TE ive read here from some very misguided and ill informed people.

so first of all disband the MOST efficiently run department in govt? which has a budget of 0.9Bn?

one that should be in fact, held up as an example of a value for money solution in how to run a civil service, to ALL of its other over-budget monster siblings?

then let the likes of the HSE (FINANCIAL BLACK HOLE!!!) and dept of justice and Dept of marine , recruit thousands MORE staff at their HIGHER wage rates, to do the work that the army already do for much lower paid staff?

EVEN when you take allowances etc into account?

and THEN to top it ALL off, these extra staff, hired at a higher cost to the tax payer,

!

How soon can the army take over running the HSE?:D

Bagenal

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

How soon can the army take over running the HSE?:D

The DF has its faults but I hazard a guess they couldnt do any worse in the management of the HSE than the in situ management.

I would'nt knock the frontline staff of the HSE, its the burden of the management they bear that I have issue with.

TheLoneGunmen

goldie fish wrote: »

What "better" use do you suggest?
Please tell me where the less than $0.9bn a year we spend on the DF should go?

Eh, schools, hospitals, policing, not cutting the social welfare budget...

badgerbaiter

Who would fill sand bags n carry away granny when it floods?

Leonidas BL

TheLoneGunmen wrote: »

Eh, schools, hospitals, policing, not cutting the social welfare budget...

0.9bn!
Dont they seem to give more than that monthly to banks and bond holders???

TheLoneGunmen

Leonidas BL wrote: »

0.9bn!
Dont they seem to give more than that monthly to banks and bond holders???

One waste of money does not mitigate another.

Leonidas BL

One is providing a service, the other isnt..

TheLoneGunmen

Leonidas BL wrote: »

One is providing a service, the other isnt..

This goes back to my original point - it could be done more efficiently and cheaper by a Gendarmerie. Why does Ireland need MBTs, and heavy artillery? Defence is the only department that does nothing most of the time. Bomb disposal could easily be carried out by said gendarmerie, and clearing roads of snow by the local authorities and civil defence.

Geekness1234

TheLoneGunmen wrote: »

This goes back to my original point - it could be done more efficiently and cheaper by a Gendarmerie. Why does Ireland need MBTs, and heavy artillery? Defence is the only department that does nothing most of the time. Bomb disposal could easily be carried out by said gendarmerie, and clearing roads of snow by the local authorities and civil defence.

Ireland,as far as I know has not got MBTs.I'd like proof please.

TheLoneGunmen

Geekness1234 wrote: »

Ireland,as far as I know has not got MBTs.I'd like proof please.

Well, whether they are heavy or light is irrelevant to my argument - why does ireland need any tanks or artillery?

Geekness1234

TheLoneGunmen wrote: »

Well, whether they are heavy or light is irrelevant to my argument - why does ireland need any tanks or artillery?

Because tanks provide cover against heavy weapons (50 calibre MGs etc) and technicals.Without that there would be a lot more casualties.
Artillery works against practically everything and are the backbone of every modern army.They aren't called the "kings of battle" for nothing.

Geekness1234

Leonidas BL wrote: »

One is providing a service, the other isnt..

So you're saying that the civilians in Chad aren't happy that there might be a chance at peace in there country?
Eastern Timor,Somalia,The Congo and the Lebenon are just a few to name whose civilians lives have been made that bit better by DF personnel.
Not forgetting the ISAF personnel who have been saved by DF know-how.

goldie fish

TheLoneGunmen wrote: »

Eh, schools, hospitals, policing, not cutting the social welfare budget...

0.9bn would be like throwing a cup of water on a bucket of sawdust.

TheLoneGunmen

Geekness1234 wrote: »

Because tanks provide cover against heavy weapons (50 calibre MGs etc) and technicals.Without that there would be a lot more casualties.

Who has 50 cal MGs? They are pretty useless (as well as expensive) for most criminal (and terrorist) purposes - are you going to rob a bank with one and make a quick getaway? If I wanted to take out a politician, I would use a sniper's rifle, not a 50 cal cannon.

Geekness1234 wrote: »

"kings of battle"

Battle against whom?

TheLoneGunmen

goldie fish wrote: »

0.9bn would be like throwing a cup of water on a bucket of sawdust.

It would still provide more value for money.

Geekness1234

TheLoneGunmen wrote: »

Who has 50 cal MGs? They are pretty useless (as well as expensive) for most criminal (and terrorist) purposes - are you going to rob a bank with one and make a quick getaway? If I wanted to take out a politician, I would use a sniper's rifle, not a 50 cal cannon.



Battle against whom?

What about deployments overseas like all the ones I've mentioned above?They all use them as they are relatively easy to use.
Robbing a bank or killing a poltician would bring you to the attention of the Gardaí or special branch,not the DF.
There called the "kings of battle" because there is currently nothing that can withstand a hit from them.
Maybe to battle against the multiple rebel organisations in Africa?

TheLoneGunmen

Geekness1234 wrote: »

What about deployments overseas like all the ones I've mentioned above?They all use them as they are relatively easy to use.
Robbing a bank or killing a poltician would bring you to the attention of the Gardaí or special branch,not the DF.
There called the "kings of battle" because there is currently nothing that can withstand a hit from them.
Maybe to battle against the multiple rebel organisations in Africa?

Why should we as a nation be blowing our limited resources on some third-world s**t hole, when we can barely balance our budget? So the army can become target practice for Hezbollah or the IDF? Let's get our own house in order first, I say!

OS119

Geekness1234 wrote: »

Ireland,as far as I know has not got MBTs.I'd like proof please.

yup, Ireland does not have MBT's. it does however have Artillery, it does have Heavy Mortars, it does have point defence SAM's, it does have CVR(T) - a little tracked reece vehicle that looks like a tank - and it does have 80-odd MOWAG armoured personel carriers.

quite why it bothers with such equipment (and the cost involved in keeping it) is rather a mystery - little of such equipment would be useful/usable in a doomsday scenario of NI (in whoevers keeping it was at the time) turning into Bosnia2.0, none of it would provide more than a speed bump for any foreign power that had the ability and intention to occupy Irish territory, and very little of it is taken on overseas peacekeeping missions.

so why bother?

Cork boy 55

OS119 wrote: »

thats absolutely true - that Armies exist to bring, or plausibly threaten to bring, violence and destruction on those that the government of the day points them towards, and while they are doing that they have the ability to offer little 'sidelines' of niche capability to their government that cost little.

the problem here however, is that apart from under the most prescriptive - and frankly unrealistic - circumstances, the DF can't do the violence bit, and the 'sidelines' have expanded to take up a significant part of what the current force does not just on a 'we've got nothing else planned today' day, but even under conditions of military emergency when it should be digging in and oiling the artillery tubes, its got to bugger about with CIT's and prisoner escorts.

not only is the tail wagging the dog, but the dog has no teeth.

OK

What would you do?

non-aligned country 4.5 million people

lets say
Your the Minister for defence for the next 10 years
You have to spend in the region of
1 Billion min 2 billion max euro
How would you organise the DF?


in 2010 it was 1 billion euros or 1.35 billion dollars
62 Ireland 1,354,000,000 0.6%http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

Leonidas BL

Geekness1234 wrote: »

So you're saying that the civilians in Chad aren't happy that there might be a chance at peace in there country?
Eastern Timor,Somalia,The Congo and the Lebenon are just a few to name whose civilians lives have been made that bit better by DF personnel.
Not forgetting the ISAF personnel who have been saved by DF know-how.

You have takin me up wrong, im saying the army provides a service and the bankers/bond holders dont...

OS119

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

...How would you organise the DF?...

firstly you make decisions about the threat axis, then design your capability around that axis.

the external threat is Maritime in nature - so that means ASW, mine-hunting, counter-smuggling, and Anti-Shipping - aircraft are the most efficient way of covering those tasks over such a large area, so we would concentrate on a Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft with those capabilities, as well as OPV's with ASW and Mine-hunting capabilities.

the Internal threat is terrorism - best countered by policemen. policemen with firearms as neccessary, but policemen none the less.

so yes, i'd still ditch the Army, use some of its funding on a new, stronger Gardai, and the remainder on a maritime defence force with the capability to defend the country's borders - which are wet, not dry.