Does Ireland need an army?

Norwayviking

Robdude wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure anyone needs a military any more.

tell that to the chinese,yanks and the russians:D

OS119

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Army manoeuvres are standard across all nations . . . and are you saying that the army is keeping the peace in Ireland currently? That simply is not the case - the army plays a vital role in ensuring the continued security of the state and assisting An Garda Siochana, but you make it seem as if the army are patrolling the streets to ensure law and order!

so the army is not keeping the peace, but is playing a vital role in securing the state and assisting AGS.

any chance you could explain that to people to whom it looks like a massive contradition?

i know the difference between an exercise - its held somewhere cold and wet, i live in a ditch for a week, i go to the toilet in a plastic bag and anyone i shoot gets up again - and being deployed with live ammunition onto the streets in support of the Police because they can't handle the criminal threat.

junder

Norwayviking wrote: »

FootShooter wrote: »

Actually, a branch of the norwegian army, called the home guard, a rapid mobilisation force was put to use after the attacks. Several guards with automatic weapons were posted at sensitive government buildings around Oslo after the attacks, to help the police force that was strained to it's bones and give a sense of security.

The home guard is actually part of the defense force,not the army.
After service for a year you will be transfered to the homeguard,no matter what branch you served in before,except for the special forces units.
The homeguard is in the vicinity of where you live,and you keep all gear included gear and automatic rifle with you at home and 200 rounds,so you are ready if mobilisation.:D

Yer the dissidents would love that if you tried that in the republic, no more risky jaunts to eastern Europe for weapons just knock of you neighbouring home guard guy

Norwayviking

junder wrote: »

Yer the dissidents would love that if you tried that in the republic, no more risky jaunts to eastern Europe for weapons just knock of you neighbouring home guard guy

Well they remove the firing pin,you get that when you show up for mobilisation:D
So its useless without it.;)

Batsy

Robdude wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure anyone needs a military any more.

What an absolutely preposterous thing to say.

caseyann

Robdude wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure anyone needs a military any more.

Are you living on same planet?
Another thing if not for the army during the floods also people would have been in more trouble.
They are a credit to Ireland in their jobs they do so many of them.
I remember even when the bin men went on strike the army out doing that job for the country.
Not to mention what they have done abroad.

Delancey

caseyann wrote: »

Are you living on same planet?
Another thing if not for the army during the floods also people would have been in more trouble.
They are a credit to Ireland in their jobs they do so many of them.
I remember even when the bin men went on strike the army out doing that job for the country.
Not to mention what they have done abroad.

To be frank when people resort to defending the Army by reminding us that they can be bin men as well as security guards that shows the utter sterility of their arguments.
An army exists to defend the country - the dogs in the street know the Irish Army could mount not 1 iota of a defence against foreign aggression and again begs the question - What are they here for ?

Internal security threats could easily be handled by a better resourced Garda service.

Judgement Day

Masochist that I am, I flicked Pat Kenny on for a few minutes this morning and the programme was coming from Templemore (site of the semi-defunct Garda College) and it was another wake-up call but is anyone listening? Country awash with crime but our valuable resources are being spent on an army to empty bins, drive trucks when the buses are on strike, escort cash and contribute troops to overseas peace keeping duties - utter madness. Ireland doesn't need an army - a para military national guard to bring some semblance of law an order back to our country. No need for major redundancies - just a change of uniform, training, equipment and mandate.

LaFlammeRouge

Delancey wrote: »

To be frank when people resort to defending the Army by reminding us that they can be bin men as well as security guards that shows the utter sterility of their arguments.
An army exists to defend the country - the dogs in the street know the Irish Army could mount not 1 iota of a defence against foreign aggression and again begs the question - What are they here for ?

Internal security threats could easily be handled by a better resourced Garda service.

An army is not like a police force. It has its own court system and discipline structure. Orders must be obeyed. The army is the last line of defence of this country. Without an army in this country we would collapse into lawlessness within months. The mere presence of the army is what holds a country together.

junder

Norwayviking wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Yer the dissidents would love that if you tried that in the republic, no more risky jaunts to eastern Europe for weapons just knock of you neighbouring home guard guy

Well they remove the firing pin,you get that when you show up for mobilisation:D
So its useless without it.;)

Still going to be alot easier to smuggle firing pins in for weapons then actual weapons. Also why let people take wespons home without firing pins, what's the point, would make more sense to store the weapons and firing pins together in the same place namely an armoury on a army camp

Delancey

LaFlammeRouge wrote: »

An army is not like a police force. It has its own court system and discipline structure. Orders must be obeyed. The army is the last line of defence of this country. Without an army in this country we would collapse into lawlessness within months. The mere presence of the army is what holds a country together.

Do please enlighten the rest of us as to how you have reached the conclusion that the Permanent Defence Forces are the glue that bind us together as a nation. Tell us how we would crumble as a society without the Army.
A more silly and outlandish assertion I have not seen on boards in quite some time.

Norwayviking

junder wrote: »

Still going to be alot easier to smuggle firing pins in for weapons then actual weapons. Also why let people take wespons home without firing pins, what's the point, would make more sense to store the weapons and firing pins together in the same place namely an armoury on a army camp

Well in an armory or camp you have access to many automatic weapons,in a house you only have access to one automatic weapon without a the firing pin.
And since weapons have been stolen from armories before,
Last time was NOKAS robbery in Norway in 2004,where they all used stolen AG3 assualt rifles from the homeguard\army.
And since most homeguardsoldiers are within 15-20 min drive from the camp,i think it should be plenty of time in a mobilisation to get ready.
The only others that has automatic weapons without the firing pin removed ,is the special forces\anti terror units.

junder

Norwayviking wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Still going to be alot easier to smuggle firing pins in for weapons then actual weapons. Also why let people take wespons home without firing pins, what's the point, would make more sense to store the weapons and firing pins together in the same place namely an armoury on a army camp

Well in an armory or camp you have access to many automatic weapons,in a house you only have access to one automatic weapon without a the firing pin.
And since weapons have been stolen from armories before,
Last time was NOKAS robbery in Norway in 2004,where they all used stolen AG3 assualt rifles from the homeguard\army.
And since most homeguardsoldiers are within 15-20 min drive from the camp,i think it should be plenty of time in a mobilisation to get ready.
The only others that has automatic weapons without the firing pin removed ,is the special forces\anti terror units.

Again whats the point in sending them home with what amounts to a fancy club when they still have to go to the base to get the firing pins might as well just keep them together, in a secure location

Norwayviking

junder wrote: »

Again whats the point in sending them home with what amounts to a fancy club when they still have to go to the base to get the firing pins might as well just keep them together, in a secure location

Security reasons:eek:
Whats easier to store,and secure,300 assualtrifles or 300 firing pins???
And reaction time will be the same,10 sec it takes to put the firing pin back in.;)
And the gear and ammo they allready have

junder

http://www.steyrarms.com/store/index.php/aug-firing-pin-upgrade-kit.html

As I said much easier to obtain a firing pin for a weapon and smuggle it in rather then trying to smuggle an entire weapon in.

Norwayviking

junder wrote: »

http://www.steyrarms.com/store/index.php/aug-firing-pin-upgrade-kit.html

As I said much easier to obtain a firing pin for a weapon and smuggle it in rather then trying to smuggle an entire weapon in.

Well you can try and buy one and see what the answer is:D
And Norway doesnt use Steyr the use HKAG3,and HK416 and 417.

And you have to purchase this part,and that you need a VERY good reason for these days.So i wish you good luck there.;)
First of all you need a firearmslicense for a steyr,second you need an import licence to get it in to any country,and also you need to get around ITAR.International Traffic in Arms Regulations.and exportlicence from the country you are purchasing it from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITAR

junder

Norwayviking wrote: »

junder wrote: »

http://www.steyrarms.com/store/index.php/aug-firing-pin-upgrade-kit.html

As I said much easier to obtain a firing pin for a weapon and smuggle it in rather then trying to smuggle an entire weapon in.

Well you can try and buy one and see what the answer is:D
And Norway doesnt use Steyr the use HKAG3,and HK416 and 417.

And you have to purchase this part,and that you need a VERY good reason for these days.So i wish you good luck there.;)
First of all you need a firearmslicense for a steyr,second you need an import licence to get it in to any country,and also you need to get around ITAR.International Traffic in Arms Regulations.and exportlicence from the country you are purchasing it from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITAR

Norway does not have a internal terroist group either. The republic of ireland and northern Ireland do. And the army of the republic do use steyr augs hence the link. That link was found after a 2 second search of the net I am sure s more in depth search would yield more results moreover, in reference to the dissident republicans, since they have been able to procure and smuggle on to this island, automatic weapons and explosives, I don't think acquiring and smuggling fire pins would be much of a problem.

Norwayviking

junder wrote: »

Norway does not have a internal terroist group either. The republic of ireland and northern Ireland do. And the army of the republic do use steyr augs hence the link. That link was found after a 2 second search of the net I am sure s more in depth search would yield more results moreover, in reference to the dissident republicans, since they have been able to procure and smuggle on to this island, automatic weapons and explosives, I don't think acquiring and smuggling fire pins would be much of a problem.

Well that was possible in the 80s and 90s .:D,i think you will find that much harder these days.
All countries have clamped down on all firearms sales and firearm parts sales,so it will be hard to get something without the proper paperwork,the reason is because of the international fight against terroism.;)
I am not saying its impossible,but you sure need some good reasons and have some good contacts to get to it though.:)
And Norway doesnt have an internal terrorist group,we have one internal terrorist,so far;)
And i am well aware of IRAs smuggling of weapons and explosives to the Island,amongst the arsenal you will find 100 AG3s,stolen from a camp in Norway in 84.;)

junder

Norwayviking wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Norway does not have a internal terroist group either. The republic of ireland and northern Ireland do. And the army of the republic do use steyr augs hence the link. That link was found after a 2 second search of the net I am sure s more in depth search would yield more results moreover, in reference to the dissident republicans, since they have been able to procure and smuggle on to this island, automatic weapons and explosives, I don't think acquiring and smuggling fire pins would be much of a problem.

Well that was possible in the 80s and 90s .:D,i think you will find that much harder these days.
All countries have clamped down on all firearms sales and firearm parts sales,so it will be hard to get something without the proper paperwork,the reason is because of the international fight against terroism.;)
I am not saying its impossible,but you sure need some good reasons and have some good contacts to get to it though.:)
And Norway doesnt have an internal terrorist group,we have one internal terrorist,so far;)
And i am well aware of IRAs smuggling of weapons and explosives to the Island,amongst the arsenal you will find 100 AG3s,stolen from a camp in Norway in 84.;)

Harder maybe, but still entirely possible, and still happening

Norwayviking

junder wrote: »

Harder maybe, but still entirely possible, and still happening

Sure if you have the right contacts and network,anything is possible:D
But for the removal of the firing pins,it sure helps preventing crime and terrorism:)
Thats why its beeing done.;)

caseyann

Delancey wrote: »

To be frank when people resort to defending the Army by reminding us that they can be bin men as well as security guards that shows the utter sterility of their arguments.
An army exists to defend the country - the dogs in the street know the Irish Army could mount not 1 iota of a defence against foreign aggression and again begs the question - What are they here for ?

Internal security threats could easily be handled by a better resourced Garda service.

Yes they could :rolleyes:
And when the cut brigade comes in trying to m ash the point that was made to be little that the Irish army are willing to get their hands dirty in what ever job they are given.
No one said they were bin men.
They are well able for internal threats.Thats why they are called to go and serve abroad.;)

Where are all these hippies coming from?

OS119

caseyann wrote: »

Yes they could :rolleyes:
And when the cut brigade comes in trying to m ash the point that was made to be little that the Irish army are willing to get their hands dirty in what ever job they are given.
No one said they were bin men.
They are well able for internal threats.Thats why they are called to go and serve abroad.;)

are you drunk?

i can't make head nor tails of what you're trying to say.

Lockstep

OS119 wrote: »

are you drunk?

Careful now....

Musiconomist

My friend is in the army, and by his accont, it is a joke. There is an enduring culture of favours, ineptitude and laziness. This sounds to me like pretty much most public bodies.

As an example, my friend told me that they recently (within the last year) ordered a load (I think between 10 and 20, though I could be wrong) of new radiation resistant armoured vehicles. They drilled through the plating to install communications arrays, which means that the equipment is no longer radiation resistant. Unbelievable, if it wasnt in Ireland. Bearing in mind that each of these vehicles cost over 1 million (taxpayer) euros.

Let's not forget that Irish soldiers get paid from NATO for NATO work. They also get paid extra for cash run duties etc.

dodgydes

Musiconomist wrote: »

My friend is in the army, and by his accont, it is a joke. There is an enduring culture of favours, ineptitude and laziness. This sounds to me like pretty much most public bodies.

As an example, my friend told me that they recently (within the last year) ordered a load (I think between 10 and 20, though I could be wrong) of new radiation resistant armoured vehicles. They drilled through the plating to install communications arrays, which means that the equipment is no longer radiation resistant. Unbelievable, if it wasnt in Ireland. Bearing in mind that each of these vehicles cost over 1 million (taxpayer) euros.

Let's not forget that Irish soldiers get paid from NATO for NATO work. They also get paid extra for cash run duties etc.

All in bold is lies, lies, lies!

Musiconomist

dodgydes wrote: »

All in bold is lies, lies, lies!

As it turns out, I was mistaken about NATO paying Irish troops. Apologies to all for the misinformation.

Just out of curiosity, why would you think what I said about the vehicles being tampered with be a lie? The NATO thing was my mistake, but I dont have any cause to make up such a story.

LuckyLloyd

filthymcnasty wrote: »

Several countries/dependencies manage without one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces

I think we should maintain an army but agree with the closing down of some barracks where they are not really needed.

Regarding the Mullingar closure there was a woman on Six-one news just now whose only argument seemed to be they had had a presence in the town for two hundred years-but so what?

She also said that now some of the soldiers would now have to buy cars to commute to Athlone. FFS

That list of countries doesn't help the 'we don't need an army' case imo.

junder

Norwayviking wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Harder maybe, but still entirely possible, and still happening

Sure if you have the right contacts and network,anything is possible:D
But for the removal of the firing pins,it sure helps preventing crime and terrorism:)
Thats why its beeing done.;)

You really do seem to be missing the point, parhaps intentionally. A group such as the real ira who have already managed to smuggle weapons and explosives and are still smuggling weapons and explosives will already have the connections to procure firing pins, indeed with the engineering ability they seem to process to make bombs it's not beyond the realms of fantasy for them to engineer thier own, so speaking as somebody who could potentially be at the wrong end of one of thier weapons I am very glad that the Irish government does not make things easy for the dissidents like for example allowing members of it's defence forces to take thier weapons home were if we were following you Norwegian example should the dissidents come a knocking demanding some poor Irish defence force members weapon, there is nothing he can do about since the firing pin for his weapon is back at his base.

Norwayviking

junder wrote: »

You really do seem to be missing the point, parhaps intentionally. A group such as the real ira who have already managed to smuggle weapons and explosives and are still smuggling weapons and explosives will already have the connections to procure firing pins, indeed with the engineering ability they seem to process to make bombs it's not beyond the realms of fantasy for them to engineer thier own, so speaking as somebody who could potentially be at the wrong end of one of thier weapons I am very glad that the Irish government does not make things easy for the dissidents like for example allowing members of it's defence forces to take thier weapons home were if we were following you Norwegian example should the dissidents come a knocking demanding some poor Irish defence force members weapon, there is nothing he can do about since the firing pin for his weapon is back at his base.

You really do seem to be missing the point, parhaps intentionally

Offcourse not,but it works in Norway,thats the way its done there.
And no not intentionally,but i am not sure it would work in Ireland,thats another story,but other countries like switzerland have the same as Norway.
We have 24 hours to mobilize the entire country,that should be plenty of time to get to you nearest base and get ready for it.
Anyone can make a firing pin for a weapon,its not that difficult,but the AG3s firing pin is one large hole piece that demands alot of knowledge in engineering,but its certainly not impossible.
The Norwegian resistance made their own 9mm stenguns as well during wwii,so nothing is impossible with the right tools at hand.
And i have no doubt that the IRA would have managed it without any problems.;)

dodgydes

Musiconomist wrote: »

As it turns out, I was mistaken about NATO paying Irish troops. Apologies to all for the misinformation.

Just out of curiosity, why would you think what I said about the vehicles being tampered with be a lie? The NATO thing was my mistake, but I dont have any cause to make up such a story.

Fair play, The DF is full of stories like the vehicles, most of which are untrue, and are heard from a friend of a friend.

I don't doubt the possibility of such a thing occurring though, every military organisation is full of incidents of collective or individual buffoonery.

The reality is that the army does not use its military skill set( except overseas). Any other role it does carry out could be carried out by other state agencies, Gardai, Civil Defence, even by a more organised and supported RDF.

I wonder how other 'neutral' countries justify their armies?