Does Ireland need an army?

Judgement Day

In the light of all the fuss about Willie Penrose's resignation over the closure of Mullingar army barracks isn't it about time that the elephant in the room is finally dealt with - why does Ireland need an army at all? Given that Ireland has no offensive capability (submarines/missiles/air or sea power) and no means to defend itself against serious external aggression, what is the point?

Ireland has far too many barracks most of which owe their existence to the Britain's need to control Ireland. Latterly these barracks served as recruiting and training facilities to service the needs of the British Empire but today they are an anachronism.

Since the IRA gave up its campaign there's even less reason to retain a standing army. It could be argued that Ireland needs an army to fulfill its obligations to UN peace keeping but even that is fallacious as we could contribute by supplying members of the Gardai. Perhaps a paramilitary Garda force would be a much better use of resources and the manpower numbers could be greatly reduced and barracks disposed with. I'm not trying to play devil's advocate but I do think a debate on the future of the Irish army is long overdue.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

NinjaK

Dumb question. Its the same as asking does the UK need an army?
Now more than ever we need an army.

pablomakaveli

I dont think paramilitary police forces work out very well and i'd hate to see the Gardai made into one.

I'd imagine a larger RDF and smalle PDF will be the route thats taken in regard to the army in the coming decades and may be a better solution but one i personally wouldn't like to see.

Judgement Day

NinjaK wrote: »

Dumb question. Its the same as asking does the UK need an army?
Now more than ever we need an army.

Why? There are no similarities between the UK and Ireland whatsoever. The UK is part of the NATO military alliance and has the power to defend itself against external aggression. Ireland is a neutral country with no military commitments apart from UN peace keeping.

ITS_A_BADGER

would this not leave ireland absolutly screwed if an someone was to invade tho? I mean come on people we would be invaded if there was a world war going on and it was decided by a warring country that ireland would be a good base to attack britain, didnt hitler have some sort of plan like this btw?

Chuck Stone

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I dont think paramilitary police forces work out very well and i'd hate to see the Gardai made into one.

I guess it would only expose it's 'paramilitary teeth' in the face of an existential threat to our sovereignty.

I don't see much need for an army because there's not much here anyone would invade for.

I agree with the OP unless a good argument can be made against it.

AlmightyDublin

ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »

would this not leave ireland absolutly screwed if an someone was to invade tho? I mean come on people we would be invaded if there was a world war going on and it was decided by a warring country that ireland would be a good base to attack britain, didnt hitler have some sort of plan like this btw?

Yep the Nazis had plans to invade Ireland at the same time as England but the conflict with Russia to the east interrupted it

Sunnyisland

We could save a large amount of money if we would abolish the Army and the Department of Defence with it - and be as peaceful and neutral as we always pretend to be.The Navel service and the Aer corps could be amalgamated into a new and strengthened Coast guard, which could also have some land-based units. It should be governed by a restored dept of the marine, which should also get responsibility for Fishing and Natural Resources. And finally we could have an even better Police force maybe even a paramilitary force. So in my opinion we dont need an Army as in the one we have now,

charlemont

The Army should be smaller and we really need only a small few barracks maybe one per province but if the Army was to be reduced the Navy should be increased.

AlmightyDublin

realies wrote: »

We could save a large amount of money if we would abolish the Army and the Department of Defence with it - and be as peaceful and neutral as we always pretend to be.The Navel service and the Aer corps could be amalgamated into a new and strengthened Coast guard, which could also have some land-based units. It should be governed by a restored dept of the marine, which should also get responsibility for Fishing and Natural Resources. And finally we could have an even better Police force maybe even a paramilitary force. So in my opinion we dont need an Army as in the one we have now,

What about a bomb scare? Who'd deal with it?

Sunnyisland

NinjaK wrote: »

Dumb question. Its the same as asking does the UK need an army?
Now more than ever we need an army.

Our Chief of Staff gets more money than his counterpart in the UK, why is that

charlemont

ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »

would this not leave ireland absolutly screwed if an someone was to invade tho? I mean come on people we would be invaded if there was a world war going on and it was decided by a warring country that ireland would be a good base to attack britain, didnt hitler have some sort of plan like this btw?

No other army bar the US maybe could get anywhere close to Ireland without the British catching wind of it and I don't think the British would allow any army invade Ireland as a staging post to wage war on Britain.

Sunnyisland

Almighty Dublin wrote: »

What about a bomb scare? Who'd deal with it?

We could train and arm a paramilitary police force which in reality would amagalte the specialist units from the Army into a proper well equipped police force.

Chuck Stone

AlmightyDublin wrote: »

What about a bomb scare? Who'd deal with it?

The SWAT division of the police.

AlmightyDublin

realies wrote: »

Almighty Dublin wrote: »

What about a bomb scare? Who'd deal with it?

We could train and arm a paramilitary police force which in reality would amagalte the specialist units from the Army into a proper well equipped police force.

Or an Anders Bering Brevik style attack? (god forbid)

AlmightyDublin

Chuck Stone wrote: »

AlmightyDublin wrote: »

What about a bomb scare? Who'd deal with it?

The SWAT division of the police.

What about an Anders Bering Brevik style attack? (god forbid)

NinjaK

Judgement Day wrote: »

Why? There are no similarities between the UK and Ireland whatsoever.

They are both independent states, there one.

Sunnyisland

Almighty Dublin wrote: »

Or an Anders Bering Breivik style attack? (god forbid)

What could or would an Army do against them sort of attacks,What could or would an Army do against a terrorist attack, nothing as Armys are not used for them sort of attacks.

Noffles

You don't need an army as you're conveniently neutral, you have nothing to defend, the place is a bankrupt kip and sure doesn't everyone love the Irish... begorra and all that!

MyKeyG

NinjaK wrote: »

Dumb question. Its the same as asking does the UK need an army?
Now more than ever we need an army.

Dumb answer! The British military in alliance with the US have been engaged in two major wars in the last decade. Whether the wars are justified or not is another matter but being involved of course Britain is required to invest heavily in it's military. Don't be so ridiculous!

filthymcnasty

Several countries/dependencies manage without one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces

I think we should maintain an army but agree with the closing down of some barracks where they are not really needed.

Regarding the Mullingar closure there was a woman on Six-one news just now whose only argument seemed to be they had had a presence in the town for two hundred years-but so what?

She also said that now some of the soldiers would now have to buy cars to commute to Athlone. FFS

CarrickMcJoe

I agree with the OP but keep it quiet aboout the IRA giving up the campaign as the army still get their border allowance!

ITS_A_BADGER

charlemont wrote: »

No other army bar the US maybe could get anywhere close to Ireland without the British catching wind of it and I don't think the British would allow any army invade Ireland as a staging post to wage war on Britain.

bullcrap, i dont think we should rely on the british to protect us, sure they might take action if we were invaded but what about when an invasion is happening and the british take a while to get organised to send soldiers etc over here? i know its not exactly a long way away but still

MyKeyG

filthymcnasty wrote: »

Several countries/dependencies manage without one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces

I think we should maintain an army but agree with the closing down of some barracks where they are not really needed.

Regarding the Mullingar closure there was a woman on Six-one news just now whose only argument seemed to be they had had a presence in the town for two hundred years-but so what?

She also said that now some of the soldiers would now have to buy cars to commute to Athlone. FFS

Yeah this is just another example, like the people who did the sit in at the travel shop, of people thinking the recession doesn't apply to them. It's not like they're losing their jobs. Brats of the highest order.

Chuck Stone

Noffles wrote: »

the place is a bankrupt kip and sure doesn't everyone love the Irish... begorra and all that!

I presume you're not Irish - what wonderful land with a blemish-less history do you herald from then?

Sunnyisland

ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »

bullcrap, i don't think we should rely on the british to protect us, sure they might take action if we were invaded but what about when an invasion is happening and the british take a while to get organised to send soldiers etc over here? i know its not exactly a long way away but still

But the reality of it is Ireland faces no aerial or land threat of any kind and is protected by default by Nato - spending hundreds of millions of euro to combat a non-existent threat, for the sake of national pride, just seems stupid.Re invasion as it mostly would come from air and the first question is obviously "who would be launching an air attack on us?" Because if they were coming from the east, they'd have to get through incredibly well defended NATO airspace in Europe, and if they were coming from the west they'd have to get past the USAF before they got to attack little old Ireland. And I think we can assume that we're not going to be attacked by either the Yanks or our EU partners in the foreseeable future, so its best that we don't spend squillions and squillions planning for it.:o Unless the lads in downing street have some new plans,it wouldn't be the first time eh:o

Sunnyisland

Noffles wrote: »

You don't need an army as you're conveniently neutral, you have nothing to defend, the place is a bankrupt kip and sure doesn't everyone love the Irish... begorra and all that!

The question is do we really need an Army and at what cost,

Re something to defend we have a country where most people who live here would only be to happy and courageous in its defence as has been seen by our history,Dont take our little debates as a weakness in our love for our country.

irishh_bob

im with kevin myers on this one , not only do we need an army like any other mature grown up nation , we need an airforce , presently we rely on our neighbours good will , hardly an ideal arrangement

Judgement Day

ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »

bullcrap, i dont think we should rely on the british to protect us, sure they might take action if we were invaded but what about when an invasion is happening and the british take a while to get organised to send soldiers etc over here? i know its not exactly a long way away but still

You obviously know nothing about modern warfare - this isn't the era of the Spanish Armada or 1798 for that matter. RAF fighters would be scrambled at the first hint of a 'mythical' invasion fleet appearing off the Irish coast. Where would they be coming from anyway - Atlantis?

Judgement Day

irishh_bob wrote: »

im with kevin myers on this one , not only do we need an army like any other mature grown up nation , we need an airforce , presently we rely on our neighbours good will , hardly an ideal arrangement

Come off it, even before the death of the Celtic Slug we couldn't have afforded the sort of expenditure that would be needed to defend the country. Much better, as some here have suggested, to put money into a beefed up Naval service to protect our fisheries and stop the drug importers. We have no industrial/military complex, and do not tool up all sorts of foreign regimes with military equipment, and are therefore under no obligation to supply cannon fodder to fight against said regimes when they turn bad.

apoeiguq3094y

Judgement Day wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

We don't really have an Army, we have a Defence Force. The "army" fulfills a wide arrange of civil functions in a fairly organised and reasonably efficient (for the civil service) manner. Its mobilised in many civil emergencies, such as strikes by frontline civil servants, floods - the army was the only way around clonmel a few years ago during chronic floods. the army was sent to donegal during those wildfires earlier in the year.

The also move cash around the country, and provide backup for the gardai.


Most importantly though, they go overseas to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Ireland has a proud history of serving as peacekeepers in conflilcts around the world. There is no economic gain in this, we do it purely because it is the right thing to do.

The army is also well respected internationally. The rangers are well known as highly trained special forces unit. Irish officers are often chosen to head up EU or UN international forces.

realies wrote: »

Our Chief of Staff gets more money than his counterpart in the UK, why is that

Cost of living maybe? also source please.

If we were to get rid of anyone from the public paybooks how about all those pencil pushers and wasters that are littered throughout every state body.

apoeiguq3094y

And for all the people saying they wouldn't stop an invasion - that's not part of the army's job. no expects the small army we have to do that.

Rob67

In the light of all the fuss about Willie Penrose's resignation over the closure of Mullingar army barracks isn't it about time that the elephant in the room is finally dealt with - why does Ireland need an army at all? Given that Ireland has no offensive capability (submarines/missiles/air or sea power) and no means to defend itself against serious external aggression, what is the point?

The Defence Forces stand where the average person won't, no matter what.

They are there to defuse IED's (a skill that takes many months, if not years to perfect).

They are there to in Aid To the Civil Power, to carry out the tasks the gardai can't (or won't).

They are there to clear your paths from snow (when requested by Govt).

They are there to do whatever is asked of them and they will do it without giving it a second thought.

Again and again the Defence Forces have made sacrifices both in time, finances and family when the rest of you call out for it, be it to provide transport to replace buses when there is a strike or roads are impassable, clear away your rubbish, transport your sick and injured when the HSE can't.

There are many other examples I could give, but they fall under the auspices of the Official Secrets Act.

I have served this country and I am proud of my service and to see a minority of the Irish people turn on the Defence Forces, ignore its traditions, the honour and accolades it has brought this country from many other nations and the subsequent good will it has garnered this nation of ours, to say the least... I'm not surprised, as a nation we always turn on our own first and to have a go at the Defence Forces, which has no voice of it's own except that of it's political masters. Well, better the soft targets first, the Defence forces and their families, at least it's not you...

Ireland has far too many barracks most of which owe their existence to the Britain's need to control Ireland. Latterly these barracks served as recruiting and training facilities to service the needs of the British Empire but today they are an anachronism.

Strangely enough, I agree, however the methodology, to date, has been ham-fisted at best and brutal at worst. It has been a thousand cuts by press release without consulting those that are going to be affected by the decision.

Since the IRA gave up its campaign there's even less reason to retain a standing army. It could be argued that Ireland needs an army to fulfill its obligations to UN peace keeping but even that is fallacious as we could contribute by supplying members of the Gardai. Perhaps a paramilitary Garda force would be a much better use of resources and the manpower numbers could be greatly reduced and barracks disposed with. I'm not trying to play devil's advocate but I do think a debate on the future of the Irish army is long overdue.

You do know there are other terrorist groups out there don't you? Some of which don't care whether we are neutral or not and would probably relish the idea of taking on such a target with no defence whatsoever.

Do you have any idea where you're going with this idea? Turn the Gardai into a paramilitary force, are you insane? Any example of such a force (Guardia Civil, Spain) has shown to be almost brutish in approach and almost inept in crime prevention/ detection. Do you really want to see armed Gardai on the streets on a permanent basis? The Gardai themselves would denounce this idea.

I have witnessed the changes the Defence Forces went through when numbers were cut in 1998, barracks closed and units disbanded (I was a member of one such unit). The Defence Forces is the most efficient body in the Public Service, both in terms of costs and use of personnel and is held as an example of what can be gained with less. Looks like they have to do it again...

MyKeyG

Judgement Day wrote: »

You obviously know nothing about modern warfare - this isn't the era of the Spanish Armada or 1798 for that matter. RAF fighters would be scrambled at the first hint of a 'mythical' invasion fleet appearing off the Irish coast. Where would they be coming from anyway - Atlantis?

Sure didn't the Polish invade years ago?:D

ITS_A_BADGER

Judgement Day wrote: »

You obviously know nothing about modern warfare - this isn't the era of the Spanish Armada or 1798 for that matter. RAF fighters would be scrambled at the first hint of a 'mythical' invasion fleet appearing off the Irish coast. Where would they be coming from anyway - Atlantis?

First of all theres no need to be condescending, modern warfare has evolved alright and they are continuing to find ways to be stealthy aswell, stealth is critical nowadays so whats tso stop some sort of stealth helicopters/vechicles/submarines/bombers etc coming to invade?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Noffles wrote: »

You don't need an army as you're conveniently neutral, you have nothing to defend

You'll have your neutrality to defend.

Try take Sweden's neutrality from them and see what kind of an arse kicking you'll get for your troubles.

Do we need an army, well for every argument for - you'll find the usual, amalgamate with the police - and then what happens when that police force needs to be backed up with something stronger, like an aid to the civil powers?.

Or, do people not realize that since WWI no other country in Europe faced the same internal security threat as we did?.. You think we just got away with it by the grace of God and good luck?.. You think we didn't tear ourselves apart like Yugoslavia because we were too lazy?.

We kept it together through strong political will on both sides, and through tough, intelligent army and policing.

We're not Bermuda, a small Caribbean or some atoll out in the Pacific somewhere - we're an independent European nation and inclusive in that is our commitement to the Nordic Battle Group and the EUFOR.

We don't aggressively assert our foreign policy on other less fortunate countries, instead for a nation & army of its size we have an almost unparallelled reputation for bringing peace to other's.

When we were partnered with other stronger nations we could provide a small logical element (Afghanistan, Iran & Iraq, Kosovo, Somalia, Cyprus, Kuwait etc) but in the absence of such a force we've provided determined and well trained infantry battalions to Lebanon, East Timor, Eritra, Liberia and Chad.

We do all this, and we do it with a lot of pride in our successes whilst we spend less than 0.9% of our GDP - even less than Malta, Luxemburg or the Vatican!.

We're getting ourselves a bargain with our expenditure on our military.

Chuck Stone

irishh_bob wrote: »

im with kevin myers on this one , not only do we need an army like any other mature grown up nation

Surely doing away with the army would be more of a sign of maturity?

we need an airforce

For what!? Maybe, at a stretch, you could make a case for some sort of air defences SAMs or whatnot but an airforce!

presently we rely on our neighbours good will , hardly an ideal arrangement

Goodwill for what? An imagined enemy?

apoeiguq3094y wrote: »

We don't really have an Army, we have a Defence Force. The "army" fulfills a wide arrange of civil functions in a fairly organised and reasonably efficient (for the civil service) manner.

Its mobilised in many civil emergencies, such as strikes by frontline civil servants, floods - the army was the only way around clonmel a few years ago during chronic floods. the army was sent to donegal during those wildfires earlier in the year.

Could these roles not be carried out by an expanded and better trained volunteer civil defence?

Bannasidhe

I would favour a system like the Swiss have:

The Swiss Armed Forces perform the roles of Switzerland's militia and regular army. Under the country's militia system, professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are male citizen conscripts 19 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old. Because of a long history of neutrality, the army does not take part in armed conflicts in other countries, but is and has taken part of several peacekeeping missions around the world.
The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personally assigned weapons, at home. Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. Males usually receive initial orders at the age of 18 for military conscription eligibility screening. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable.[3] Annually, approximately 20,000 persons are trained in basic training for a duration from 18 to 21 weeks (increased from 15 weeks, in 2003).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland

Although I see no reason why women should be excluded from the compulsory component and I would question the wisdom of sending people home with their equipment - including weapons - as they do in Switzerland.

Apart from those two 'tweaks' I think it would make perfect sense for Ireland to drastically reduce the amount of professional soldiers we have and create a trained citizen's militia.

My brother-in-law is a professional solider and seems to spend far more time protecting his sofa then the country. He is driving my poor sister off her game under her feet and eating them out of house and home.

Sunnyisland

May I just add that my son in law and two of my brother in laws are in the Irish defence forces and I have nothing but the highest respect for them,But we do not need an Army as it stands today.

arybvtcw0eolkf

realies wrote: »

May I just add that my son in law and two of my brother in laws are in the Irish defence forces and I have nothing but the highest respect for them,But we do not need an Army as it stands today.

Maybe you might need it standing for you tomorrow!.

'Tis better to look at it than look for it laddie'.

bbam

ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »

would this not leave ireland absolutly screwed if an someone was to invade tho? I mean come on people we would be invaded if there was a world war going on and it was decided by a warring country that ireland would be a good base to attack britain, didnt hitler have some sort of plan like this btw?

1. The only reason anyone would want to invade Ireland would be to locate a force close to the UK/Europe

2. Do you seriously think our current standing army could repel anyone intent on invading the UK/Europe?

We should look to phase out the army and increase Garda numbers by 50%

Sunnyisland

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

Maybe you might need it standing for you tomorrow!.

'Tis better to look at it than look for it laddie'.

Sorry makikomi our Army is not going anywhere and is being run down & down and something needs to be done before were left with a dads Army.

arybvtcw0eolkf

realies wrote: »

Sorry makikomi our Army is not going anywhere and is being run down & down and something needs to be done before were left with a dads Army.

Ok sorry I may have read you wrong.

Your saying we need to increase our expenditure on defence?.

We certainly need an army, and I don't know one soldier who wouldn't be in favour of a re-org and cut a lot of the fat from it.

But that's not for me to talk about tbh.

ITS_A_BADGER

bbam wrote: »

1. The only reason anyone would want to invade Ireland would be to locate a force close to the UK/Europe

2. Do you seriously think our current standing army could repel anyone intent on invading the UK/Europe?

We should look to phase out the army and increase Garda numbers by 50%

1. didnt my post say something similar to that

2.Probably not but isnt some resistance better then none at all, so you would give up without a fight?

gardai arent equipped for war situations and yes yes i know there is an armed responce united etc but they are limited numbers

Sunnyisland

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

Ok sorry I may have read you wrong.

Your saying we need to increase our expenditure on defence?.

No what i am saying is the Army that we have now needs to be totally disbanded and some sort of new police/military force be created to replace it as the current situation is wasting millions of euros.

The majority of Army men do nothing day in day out is that not true ?

apoeiguq3094y

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Could these roles not be carried out by an expanded and better trained volunteer civil defence?

No, while there are some great volunteers out there, e.g. mountain rescue, you can't order volunteers to do something. Also they are no where near as organised or as quick to mobilise.

Seriously, the defence forces are good value for money. We spend more on stupid quangos than on the army.

arybvtcw0eolkf

realies wrote: »

No what i am saying is the Army that we have now needs to be totally disbanded and some sort of new police/military force be created to replace it as the current situation is wasting millions of euros.

The majority of Army men do nothing day in day out is that not true ?

lol, why am I wasting my time.

I'm going out for a walk, for crying out loud give me strength.

Sunnyisland

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

lol, why am I wasting my time.

I'm going out for a walk, for crying out loud give me strength.

Enjoy your walk

Manic Moran

Although I see no reason why women should be excluded from the compulsory component

I think Greece was toying with the idea a few years ago. It didn't go over well.

and I would question the wisdom of sending people home with their equipment - including weapons - as they do in Switzerland

The military advantages are obvious: You have a fully equipped soldier in about as much time as it takes to put on the combats, web gear, and break open the tin of ammo. Also, it's impossible to bomb the armoury and deprive the citizen soldiers of their equipment when the equipment is not in the armoury to begin with.

It used to be the case that FCA personnel would take their Enfields home, I'm not aware of any significant issues which were caused by this practise.

NTM

DeBrugha

Well yes because they are there when needed.

Thats like saying does the village of Carraroe in Galway need a garda station because theres rarely crime?

You never know whats going to happen.