Does Ireland need an army?

joseph brand

Saying that our soldiers don't do a lot is a pretty silly statement. My understanding was that the army was there for if and when it was needed.

Are people moaning that we're not invaded every day, or need bombs defused more regularly?

Think about it being similar to security. Should companies take down their security cameras and sack all security guards because the place hasn't been fleeced in years? I've seen fat, lazy security men in big companies who haven't exactly been chasing thieves 24/7. But they're needed! In case. Same as the army.
Plus, no self-respecting country would be caught dead without an army, because they would be dead, defenceless.

One thing that puts me off the idea of conscription is when you read about it in Russia. A lot of midnight rape and other horrors.

Skeewa

"then war breaks out and your cowering in the corner saying where's the f**king army". I take it that you are one of those deluded f**ks that thinks he is actually in an army... The Irish defence force are not an army, look up army in the dictionary twat!!! The film snapper summed up the Irish DF perfectly... When the brother came back from the Lebanon bull****ting about been unarmed and staring Arabs down "looking them straight in the eye till the back off". The Irish DF is full of Walter Mitty bull**** artists... The first hint of hardship and their off to the solicitors!!! I hope we never go to war as this country couldn't afford the legal costs!!!!

Skeewa

The Brits and yanks make defence cuts based on the perceived threats to their nations, like every other country in the world... The don't maintain an army based on what if... "what if aliens attack!" What if we attacked by blood sucking ninja elves!!! Pure ****ing fantasy ****, if we're attacked having a mickey mouse wanna be "army". You would be better off spending the money on a first class health service because if we have to depend on those clowns we'll need it!!!

Skeewa

The Irish army define their role as defending the country from an (make believe) external aggressor... The real threat is internal and not from subversives but drugs and organised crime gangs... By the way, the gardai dealt with the IRA in the country not the army during the troubles... The army just backed the guards up... If you get rid of the army and put the extra money into the gardai then the state could target both more effectually... Specialised units such as the rangers and EOD could be incorporated into the guards... Get rid of the heavy equipment like artillery etc... You can't fight the IRA with artillery... Increase the size and the powers of an Garda siochona and rid the state of organised crime once and for all... **** the fantasy enemy deal with the real enemy on your doorstep...

trendyvicar

Skeewa wrote: »

"then war breaks out and your cowering in the corner saying where's the f**king army". I take it that you are one of those deluded f**ks that thinks he is actually in an army... The Irish defence force are not an army, look up army in the dictionary twat!!! The film snapper summed up the Irish DF perfectly... When the brother came back from the Lebanon bull****ting about been unarmed and staring Arabs down "looking them straight in the eye till the back off". The Irish DF is full of Walter Mitty bull**** artists... The first hint of hardship and their off to the solicitors!!! I hope we never go to war as this country couldn't afford the legal costs!!!!

But couldn't you say that of Ireland as a whole? Perhaps The Irish have got the army they deserve?

deise go deo

Judgement Day wrote: »

Given that Ireland does nothing to cause International instability I can't see why it is under any obligation to contribute towards International stability but, as I already stated, a beefed up Garda service could be used to provide Ireland's obligations to the UN. The Gardai were deployed to Namibia in 1989 see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

I know that the Gardai have gone overseas in the past, as far as I know some have served with KFOR in Kosovo as well, but in a domestic context I don't believe it makes sense to to get rid of the Army, I don't think there are any savings to be made and as for the Gardai not being properly backed up, taking away the army will just mean that the Gardai will have to take over the roles the Army has been handling up till now, putting them under more strain, not less.

Poccington

Skeewa wrote: »

"then war breaks out and your cowering in the corner saying where's the f**king army". I take it that you are one of those deluded f**ks that thinks he is actually in an army... The Irish defence force are not an army, look up army in the dictionary twat!!! The film snapper summed up the Irish DF perfectly... When the brother came back from the Lebanon bull****ting about been unarmed and staring Arabs down "looking them straight in the eye till the back off". The Irish DF is full of Walter Mitty bull**** artists... The first hint of hardship and their off to the solicitors!!! I hope we never go to war as this country couldn't afford the legal costs!!!!

I think The Snapper, when giving an example of the Leb, missed out on the part where members of the DF came home in coffins or in the case of Pte. Kevin Joyce, never came home at all.

Walter Mitty bull**** artists? The first hint of hardship they're off to their solicitors? 47 Irish troops died in the Leb alone while serving this country. **** you.

dodgydes

Skeewa wrote: »

"then war breaks out and your cowering in the corner saying where's the f**king army". I take it that you are one of those deluded f**ks that thinks he is actually in an army... The Irish defence force are not an army, look up army in the dictionary twat!!! The film snapper summed up the Irish DF perfectly... When the brother came back from the Lebanon bull****ting about been unarmed and staring Arabs down "looking them straight in the eye till the back off". The Irish DF is full of Walter Mitty bull**** artists... The first hint of hardship and their off to the solicitors!!! I hope we never go to war as this country couldn't afford the legal costs!!!!

I reckon a soldier stole his bird:D

marknjb

spent a few weeks working in an army barracks a few year ago i couldnt get over how overweight some of them were they would be doing well to tie up their boots let alone defend the country if war breaks out i will stand beside my old man at least i know he,s a good shot (seen him bag a few foxes at a good distance

Poccington

marknjb wrote: »

spent a few weeks working in an army barracks a few year ago i couldnt get over how overweight some of them were they would be doing well to tie up their boots let alone defend the country if war breaks out i will stand beside my old man at least i know he,s a good shot (seen him bag a few foxes at a good distance

The DF had a sniper pair come second in this years International Sniper Competition. You might be better off standing beside us.

marknjb

not really
the old lad would have his wellies on quicker

shadowninty

Perhaps if the Irish Defence Forces had troops on the ground in Afghanistan, for example, thus getting more troops out of barracks, the role of them would seem far more important to the country?

FootShooter

realies wrote: »

What could or would an Army do against them sort of attacks,What could or would an Army do against a terrorist attack, nothing as Armys are not used for them sort of attacks.

Actually, a branch of the norwegian army, called the home guard, a rapid mobilisation force was put to use after the attacks. Several guards with automatic weapons were posted at sensitive government buildings around Oslo after the attacks, to help the police force that was strained to it's bones and give a sense of security.

Skeewa

F*** you wanna be rambo of the 48 actually not 47... How many died through traffic accidents... Most died through indirect fire of collateral damage... They were just in the way... The UN is an obsolete organisation remember Yugoslavia or Rwanda... What have achieved in the Lebanon? F**k all!!! Use the resources wasted on the army and spend it on a beefed up gardai... Train members of the gardai in firearms, roughly 600 to 800 (real battalion strength) not pitiful 200 to 400 Irish DF excuse for a battalion... The gardai can be sent overseas to carry out "UN observer" duties... BTW I have been in the army and come from an army family and four generation of my family have been in the army since it began... But having seen for myself I have to agree that they are a waste of resources...

Skeewa

dodgydes wrote: »

Skeewa wrote: »

"then war breaks out and your cowering in the corner saying where's the f**king army". I take it that you are one of those deluded f**ks that thinks he is actually in an army... The Irish defence force are not an army, look up army in the dictionary twat!!! The film snapper summed up the Irish DF perfectly... When the brother came back from the Lebanon bull****ting about been unarmed and staring Arabs down "looking them straight in the eye till the back off". The Irish DF is full of Walter Mitty bull**** artists... The first hint of hardship and their off to the solicitors!!! I hope we never go to war as this country couldn't afford the legal costs!!!!

I reckon a soldier stole his bird:D

Look retard if that's the best come back that you have no wonder your in the DF... Your not ****ing marine or a soldier your in the Irish DF... A poor excuse for an army, stop pretending to be something your not... To call yourselves soldiers is an insult to real soldiers world wide... I left the DF because it was crap and full of Walter mittys like you... What next "you weren't there man" crap...

nesf

Skeewa wrote: »

Look retard if that's the best come back that you have no wonder your in the DF... Your not ****ing marine or a soldier your in the Irish DF... A poor excuse for an army, stop pretending to be something your not... To call yourselves soldiers is an insult to real soldiers world wide... I left the DF because it was crap and full of Walter mittys like you... What next "you weren't there man" crap...

Banned for a week.

dodgydes

Skeewa wrote: »

Look retard if that's the best come back that you have no wonder your in the DF... Your not ****ing marine or a soldier your in the Irish DF... A poor excuse for an army, stop pretending to be something your not... To call yourselves soldiers is an insult to real soldiers world wide... I left the DF because it was crap and full of Walter mittys like you... What next "you weren't there man" crap...

I reckon a soldier stole his bird

Yep, that confirms it, I was right.

Zombrex

Every country needs an army, if only for extreme times and edge cases. Not every roll of the army can be simply replaced with police (the army actually carries out a number of roles in the State beyond what the police could manage, such as bomb disposal, escort of money and vips etc.).

A more relevant question is how big does the Irish army need to be.

Judgement Day

Zombrex wrote: »

Every country needs an army, if only for extreme times and edge cases. Not every roll of the army can be simply replaced with police (the army actually carries out a number of roles in the State beyond what the police could manage, such as bomb disposal, escort of money and vips etc.).

A more relevant question is how big does the Irish army need to be.

There you are spot on - how big an army do we need? The escorting of cash is already a joint operation with the Gardai and I should have thought security for VIPs would be a Garda matter too. The resources put into maintaining a standing army would be much better spent on improvements to the naval service, Gardai etc. I'm sure the bomb squad could be subsumed into the Gardai, so what role does that leave for the remainder of them - ceremonial duties?

Batsy

shadowninty wrote: »

Ireland isn't *ruled* by Europe per se, we aren't some sort of colony. Don't be so dramatic

You aren't ruled by Europe. You are ruled by the EU. There's a difference.

deise go deo

Judgement Day wrote: »

There you are spot on - how big an army do we need? The escorting of cash is already a joint operation with the Gardai and I should have thought security for VIPs would be a Garda matter too. The resources put into maintaining a standing army would be much better spent on improvements to the naval service, Gardai etc. I'm sure the bomb squad could be subsumed into the Gardai, so what role does that leave for the remainder of them - ceremonial duties?

Of course the duties that the army carries out could be carried out by other organisations, that's not really the question, the question is why should they be, what would be the benefit?

There are clear downsides.

OS119

deise go deo wrote: »

Of course the duties that the army carries out could be carried out by other organisations, that's not really the question, the question is why should they be, what would be the benefit?

There are clear downsides.

there are, imv, clear cost benefits of civilianising the current ATCA work that the Army does - CIT, Prisoner Guard and escort. personally, i think anyone who believes that employing 1500 extra Gardai and sending them off to the FBI, GSG9 in Germany or the Met Police in the UK to be trained to their level in firearms could possibly be more expensive than maintaining/equiping/training/paying a standing army of 8,500 with 2,500 reservists needs to lie down and seek medical help.

there's also a political benefit that people in Ireland don't like to talk about. when i go to a foreign country and i see armed soldiers on the streets, i assume that they've either had a coup or they're just about to have one - i assume that i'm in a banana republic, probably in a land with inflation in triple figures, and where i can expect to pay a 'tax' during every contact i have with any local official, and not, frankly, in a place i want to be.

i don't think that Irish people, or the IG, realise how disconcerting it is to foreigners to see armed soldiers performing tasks that in any 'normal' country are performed by the Police - it means, to everyone else, that the normal rule of law doesn't apply here, and that only soldiers can maintain the civil peace.

that, to most visitors, means far more than the approachability of the affable unarmed Gardai.

deise go deo

OS119 wrote: »

there are, imv, clear cost benefits of civilianising the current ATCA work that the Army does - CIT, Prisoner Guard and escort. personally, i think anyone who believes that employing 1500 extra Gardai and sending them off to the FBI, GSG9 in Germany or the Met Police in the UK to be trained to their level in firearms could possibly be more expensive than maintaining/equiping/training/paying a standing army of 8,500 with 2,500 reservists needs to lie down and seek medical help.

there's also a political benefit that people in Ireland don't like to talk about. when i go to a foreign country and i see armed soldiers on the streets, i assume that they've either had a coup or they're just about to have one - i assume that i'm in a banana republic, probably in a land with inflation in triple figures, and where i can expect to pay a 'tax' during every contact i have with any local official, and not, frankly, in a place i want to be.

i don't think that Irish people, or the IG, realise how disconcerting it is to foreigners to see armed soldiers performing tasks that in any 'normal' country are performed by the Police - it means, to everyone else, that the normal rule of law doesn't apply here, and that only soldiers can maintain the civil peace.

that, to most visitors, means far more than the approachability of the affable unarmed Gardai.

I would like to know where you got the figure of 1500 Gardai for the Army, but lets say we get rid of the Army and get in 1500 Gardai instead, what is the benefit?
Lets say you save 300 million, you then have a structure that is less expensive than the current one, great, but it would be delusional to believe that a police force 1500 stronger could possibly carry out all the functions the army does to the same standard, and lets not think that these 1500 extra gardai will be doing anything about crime, they will be doing cash escorts, Training to take on a counter terrorism role, looking after EOD and high security prisons etc etc.

We will have to stop international Peace support missions, which will do nothing for our international relations.
We will also have lost a flexible force that can respond to what ever task it is put to, and every task that gets reassigned from the army to some other organisation will become much more expensive to carry out.
Should the security situation change as it did in 1939, and again in 1969 to a point that the state needs an army, we will once again find that our penny pinching has left us up shít creek without a paddle.

As for having soldiers on the street, every time I'v been to France I have seen Armed soldiers at the airport, last time I was in Paris there were some very heavily armed soldiers wandering around under the Eiffel Tower, didn't put me off.

kildarecommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

In the light of all the fuss about Willie Penrose's resignation over the closure of Mullingar army barracks isn't it about time that the elephant in the room is finally dealt with - why does Ireland need an army at all? Given that Ireland has no offensive capability (submarines/missiles/air or sea power) and no means to defend itself against serious external aggression, what is the point?

Ireland has far too many barracks most of which owe their existence to the Britain's need to control Ireland. Latterly these barracks served as recruiting and training facilities to service the needs of the British Empire but today they are an anachronism.

Since the IRA gave up its campaign there's even less reason to retain a standing army. It could be argued that Ireland needs an army to fulfill its obligations to UN peace keeping but even that is fallacious as we could contribute by supplying members of the Gardai. Perhaps a paramilitary Garda force would be a much better use of resources and the manpower numbers could be greatly reduced and barracks disposed with. I'm not trying to play devil's advocate but I do think a debate on the future of the Irish army is long overdue.

And I thought it was just Irish Rail you disliked! Now you have moved on to the Irish Defence Forces who's next Irish Farmers Association , Irish Lights ,Irish ferries !!!

Judgement Day

kildarecommuter wrote: »

And I thought it was just Irish Rail you disliked! Now you have moved on to the Irish Defence Forces who's next Irish Farmers Association , Irish Lights ,Irish ferries !!!

Are you on this thread to attack me or contribute?

Judgement Day

OS119 wrote: »

there are, imv, clear cost benefits of civilianising the current ATCA work that the Army does - CIT, Prisoner Guard and escort. personally, i think anyone who believes that employing 1500 extra Gardai and sending them off to the FBI, GSG9 in Germany or the Met Police in the UK to be trained to their level in firearms could possibly be more expensive than maintaining/equiping/training/paying a standing army of 8,500 with 2,500 reservists needs to lie down and seek medical help.

there's also a political benefit that people in Ireland don't like to talk about. when i go to a foreign country and i see armed soldiers on the streets, i assume that they've either had a coup or they're just about to have one - i assume that i'm in a banana republic, probably in a land with inflation in triple figures, and where i can expect to pay a 'tax' during every contact i have with any local official, and not, frankly, in a place i want to be.

i don't think that Irish people, or the IG, realise how disconcerting it is to foreigners to see armed soldiers performing tasks that in any 'normal' country are performed by the Police - it means, to everyone else, that the normal rule of law doesn't apply here, and that only soldiers can maintain the civil peace.

that, to most visitors, means far more than the approachability of the affable unarmed Gardai.

You have raised a very good point here. My local town (Enniscorthy) is regularly brought to a standstill when the convoy hits town. I find it quite alarming seeing heavily armed troops on the streets so God knows what visitors must make of it. It is genuinely disconcerting that such is the lawless state of our country that this is is the point we have reached. The country is awash with crime of all sorts - petty thuggery, burglary, a massive drug problem + related crime, tiger kidnapping, diesel laundering, crooked politicians and developers etc.etc. and needs to be seriously taken in hand if it's not already too late. Reducing the size of the army and increasing the size, remit and equipment of the Gardai is part of the answer in my opinion.

snafuk35

To secure the peace is to prepare for war.

Sierra Oscar

Judgement Day wrote: »

You have raised a very good point here. My local town (Enniscorthy) is regularly brought to a standstill when the convoy hits town. I find it quite alarming seeing heavily armed troops on the streets so God knows what visitors must make of it. It is genuinely disconcerting that such is the lawless state of our country that this is is the point we have reached. The country is awash with crime of all sorts - petty thuggery, burglary, a massive drug problem + related crime, tiger kidnapping, diesel laundering, crooked politicians and developers etc.etc. and needs to be seriously taken in hand if it's not already too late. Reducing the size of the army and increasing the size, remit and equipment of the Gardai is part of the answer in my opinion.

Army manoeuvres are standard across all nations . . . and are you saying that the army is keeping the peace in Ireland currently? That simply is not the case - the army plays a vital role in ensuring the continued security of the state and assisting An Garda Siochana, but you make it seem as if the army are patrolling the streets to ensure law and order!

Norwayviking

FootShooter wrote: »

Actually, a branch of the norwegian army, called the home guard, a rapid mobilisation force was put to use after the attacks. Several guards with automatic weapons were posted at sensitive government buildings around Oslo after the attacks, to help the police force that was strained to it's bones and give a sense of security.

The home guard is actually part of the defense force,not the army.
After service for a year you will be transfered to the homeguard,no matter what branch you served in before,except for the special forces units.
The homeguard is in the vicinity of where you live,and you keep all gear included gear and automatic rifle with you at home and 200 rounds,so you are ready if mobilisation.:D

Robdude

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure anyone needs a military any more.