Does Ireland need an army?

Sunnyisland

donegal11 wrote: »

If the army went on strike would anyone notice?

What exactly do they do on a day to day basis?

I asked that already and got lol.

There are approx 8000 plus soldiers in the Irish Army,

I know they do this on a weekly basis

Keep fit, train, Bank & prisoner escorts, Play war games anything else

LOL is right.

Lab_Mouse

realies wrote: »

anything else

baby sit cattle and petrol on the border?

dodgydes

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

baby sit cattle and petrol on the border?

Em.. defuse bombs?

dodgydes

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

baby sit cattle and petrol on the border?

Fishery Protection?

dodgydes

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

baby sit cattle and petrol on the border?

Air Ambulance?

arybvtcw0eolkf

donegal11 wrote: »

What exactly do they do on a day to day basis?

Who are you asking about?.

The infantry soldier on a mission readiness exercise preparing for deployment to Lebanon?.

Or the CIS personnel providing communications for that exercise, or rear link back home from over's missions to providing comm's to a host of other duties performed on a regular and on going basis in aid to the civil authorities/power's?.

Or the sailor out at sea protecting our coasts from drug smugglers, or illegal fishing or in aid to the met service and a collection of other state agencies.

Or would you like to know how the chefs provide for the needs of those above, who btw are not working 9-5 Monday to Friday.

Or in the case of a medical evacution, do you think the heli/plane flies without a support element?..

Maybe you want to know about the medic who provides a medical service to serving personnel at home and abroad, plus he/she is probably providing a free clinic to locals in Lebanon, Chad, Liberia etc?.

Dunno, maybe your waiting to hear from the EOD personnel on 24/7 365 day standby who will suit up and go & make safe a pipe bomb, or fertizer bomb on the border - or even an IED or unexploded ordnance oversea's..

So tell me, who's job do you want to know about?.

Sierra Oscar

To be considered a sovereign nation, then yes we need an army in order to ensure the protection of our borders. It is a fundamental requirement in order to be considered an actual sovereign.

Also, people tend to forget that the army plays a significant role in terms of combating illegal activities in the state - from fighting smuggling to keeping paramilitaries at bay. In fact that is its primary role, and the restructuring of the army over the last decade has had that primary role at its core. Anyone who thinks that the entire army is just sitting in barracks across the country awaiting to combat an invasion are deluded and very ill informed.

EDIT: People need to actually read the white-paper on defence in order to actually recognise the purpose of the Irish Army.

Sunnyisland

The main function of any defence forces is to protect a country from external threats but our small and neutral country has few threats.I agree that the defence forces perform many useful functions such as snow removal, bomb disposals and anti-smuggling operations but all these tasks could easily be performed by a revamped police force and do not constitute a reason to keep a standing force with expensive equipment that we seldom or ever use.we will still manage to spend €908m next year to pay for 10,500 full-time defence staff and 13,000 reserves. That's about two-thirds of what it costs to run the gardai which has 15,000 full-time members.Yes we have overseas peacekeeping missions but is that what our Army is primarily for .

Manic Moran

RichieC wrote: »

weird, I thought it was about protecting yourself from the evil gubmint?

That's part of the reason behind the 2nd Amendment in the US. I don't believe that's a declared issue in Switzerland. Still, it probably would keep the government honest, no?

NTM

Delancey

While the Defence Forces do carry out important duties at home it must be asked just how many of these could be outsourced ?
Already Air Sea Search and Rescue has been outsourced when the Air Corps proved unable/unwilling ( depending on who you believe ) to provide the service.
Ministerial Air Transport could be outsourced as could coastal surveillance as the Australians did years ago , Air Ambulance which in reality refers to inter-hospital transfers is another candidate.
Outsource all the above and just what are the Air Corps for ? They are quite unable to provide any sort of air defence for the country and in the event of say hijacked airliners presenting a threat a la 9/11 we would be totally dependent on the British Air Force for protection.

The Air Corps is little more than a very expensive flying club the nation can ill-afford.

I have always felt that as an island our Navy is a joke - that is where investment should be directed.

From a position of purely national self-interest ( and temporarily ignoring humanitarian considerations )the question has to be asked : Just how do overseas peace-keeping missions benefit the people of this country ?

donegal11

dodgydes wrote: »

Em.. defuse bombs?

Out of the 8000 paid personnel how many could defuse a bomb?:rolleyes:

Bannasidhe

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

Who are you asking about?.

The infantry soldier on a mission readiness exercise preparing for deployment to Lebanon?.

Or the CIS personnel providing communications for that exercise, or rear link back home from over's missions to providing comm's to a host of other duties performed on a regular and on going basis in aid to the civil authorities/power's?.

Or the sailor out at sea protecting our coasts from drug smugglers, or illegal fishing or in aid to the met service and a collection of other state agencies.

Or would you like to know how the chefs provide for the needs of those above, who btw are not working 9-5 Monday to Friday.

Or in the case of a medical evacution, do you think the heli/plane flies without a support element?..

Maybe you want to know about the medic who provides a medical service to serving personnel at home and abroad, plus he/she is probably providing a free clinic to locals in Lebanon, Chad, Liberia etc?.

Dunno, maybe your waiting to hear from the EOD personnel on 24/7 365 day standby who will suit up and go & make safe a pipe bomb, or fertizer bomb on the border - or even an IED or unexploded ordnance oversea's..

So tell me, who's job do you want to know about?.

Told my sister-in-law that himself (an NCO) is actually doing the bit highlighted - not, despite the evidence of her eyes, sitting on the sofa most of the week scratching himself. Her reply was unrepeatable.

I have several friends and relations in the military (army mainly) - from privates to very high ranking officers and I would defy anyone to say each and every one of them put in a 40 hour week, every week with only the statutory days off per year.

And no-one has even mentioned that day (is it one or two days lads?) every year the whole bloody army has the day off. Yup. At least one day a year the whole army has the day off. What if we get invaded then?

The fact is that a small, neutral, nation does not need a standing military force of 8,000.
We could easily do with half of that - in particular the army.

Put that money into the Gardaí and increased civil defence (membership of which could be part of National Service).

donegal11

apoeiguq3094y wrote: »

.

Seriously, the defence forces are good value for money.

How do you measure there output? who are you comparing them to too? You could say anything was efficient or value for money if you had nothing to compare it to?

arybvtcw0eolkf

realies wrote: »

The main function of any defence forces is to protect a country from external threats but our small and neutral country has few threats.

Ireland's favourable geographical location, on the north-west border of the European Union, makes any external threat or future invasion unlikely. The state has a long-standing policy of non-belligerence in armed conflicts that included neutrality in World War II. For these reasons, the states military capabilities are relatively modest. However having said that, the state has a long history of involvement in United Nations Peacekeeping operations (UNFICYP, UNIFIL, UNISOM, UNMEE, EUFOR-Chat) .
Functions of the Defence Forces include:

Preparation for the defence of the state against armed attack, both internally and against external enemies

Assisting the Garda Síochána (police force), including the protection of the internal security of the state.

Peace-keeping, crisis management and humanitarian relief operations in support of the United Nations.

Policing the fisheries, in accordance with the state's obligations under European Union agreements.

Miscellaneous civil contingency duties requested by the Government such as search and rescue, air ambulance provision, providing secure air transport for ministers, assistance in the event of natural and other disasters, ensuring the maintenance of essential services, and assisting in dealing with oil pollution at sea.

realies wrote: »

I agree that the defence forces perform many useful functions such as snow removal, bomb disposals and anti-smuggling operations but all these tasks could easily be performed by a revamped police force and do not constitute a reason to keep a standing force with expensive equipment that we seldom or ever use.we will still manage to spend €908m next year to pay for 10,500 full-time defence staff and 13,000 reserves. That's about two-thirds of what it costs to run the gardai which has 15,000 full-time members.Yes we have overseas peacekeeping missions but is that what our Army is primarily for .

Your figures re. army strength are at least three years out of date.

I think you said earlier in the thread you have family members in the defence forces, if your quoting those people they're idiots who know F'all (we call them 'empty heads') or your making up stuff.

You're not very good at this.

Next.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Told my sister-in-law that himself (an NCO) is actually doing the bit highlighted - not, despite the evidence of her eyes, sitting on the sofa most of the week scratching himself. Her reply was unrepeatable.

I have several friends and relations in the military (army mainly) - from privates to very high ranking officers and I would defy anyone to say each and every one of them put in a 40 hour week, every week with only the statutory days off per year.

And no-one has even mentioned that day (is it one or two days lads?) every year the whole bloody army has the day off. Yup. At least one day a year the whole army has the day off. What if we get invaded then?

The fact is that a small, neutral, nation does not need a standing military force of 8,000.
We could easily do with half of that - in particular the army.

Put that money into the Gardaí and increased civil defence (membership of which could be part of National Service).

More fantasy.. Tell me, what is THAT day off?.. Seriously because I might be owed a few of 'em.

Is it THAT (WINK, WINK, NUDGE, NUDGE) day?...

hilarity central with you trolls guys

Bannasidhe

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

Preparation for the defence of the state against armed attack, both internally and against external enemies

unlikely to happen as by your own words 'Ireland's favourable geographical location, on the north-west border of the European Union, makes any external threat or future invasion unlikely.' The chances of a major internal threat are equally unlikely.

Assisting the Garda Síochána (police force), including the protection of the internal security of the state.

Not any form of argument against reducing PDF numbers and increasing Gardaí numbers.

Peace-keeping, crisis management and humanitarian relief operations in support of the United Nations.

Policing the fisheries, in accordance with the state's obligations under European Union agreements.

Miscellaneous civil contingency duties requested by the Government such as search and rescue, air ambulance provision, providing secure air transport for ministers, assistance in the event of natural and other disasters, ensuring the maintenance of essential services, and assisting in dealing with oil pollution at sea.

No reason this could not still be achieved with a 50% reduction in our current standing force reinforced by a better equipped and trained Civil Defence.

Bannasidhe

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

More fantasy.. Tell me, what is THAT day off?.. Seriously because I might be owed a few of 'em.

Is it THAT (WINK, WINK, NUDGE, NUDGE) day?...

hilarity central with you trolls guys

It's no more fantasy then the old 'loaded gun' allowance the army used to get ...about 1994 what was it - £8...;).

arybvtcw0eolkf

Delancey wrote: »

From a position of purely national self-interest ( and temporarily ignoring humanitarian considerations )the question has to be asked : Just how do overseas peace-keeping missions benefit the people of this country ?

Probably a question more pertinent to The Department of Foreign Affairs as I doubt DOD take on an oversea's mission without their consultation's.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's no more fantasy then the old 'loaded gun' allowance the army used to get ...about 1994 what was it - £8...;).

Seriously, what in the name of sweet baby Jesus are you going on about?.

Bannasidhe

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

Seriously, what in the name of sweet baby Jesus are you going on about?.

Members of the army used to get an allowance for handling loaded weapons - back in the 1990s this was £8 a day. This was confirmed to me by a (now retired) Lt Col - who was less then impressed that I even knew about it. However, no matter how loudly he shouted - I was under no obligation to tell him 'who bloody well told me about that!'

Additionally, I have been led to believe there is an 'army day off' every year (not sure if this includes navy/airforce) when the entire force in Ireland gets the day off. Either that or the 7 privates, 4 Sergeants, 1 Quarter Master Sergeant, 2 captains and a Colonel (stationed in different units/barracks some of whom do not know each other) I know are all lying to their OH's when they claim they they have no work as it is the 'army' day off - amazingly - they all do this on the very same day.

If they are lying - I know a few people would be very interested to hear that. Personally its no skin off my nose but I would quite enjoy watching the fireworks - esp from the Colonel's wife of some 25 years :P

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Members of the army used to get an allowance for handling loaded weapons - back in the 1990s this was £8 a day. This was confirmed to me by a (now retired) Lt Col - who was less then impressed that I even knew about it. However, no matter how loudly he shouted - I was under no obligation to tell him 'who bloody well told me about that!'

Additionally, I have been led to believe there is an 'army day off' every year (not sure if this includes navy/airforce) when the entire force in Ireland gets the day off. Either that or the 7 privates, 4 Sergeants, 1 Quarter Master Sergeant, 2 captains and a Colonel (stationed in different units/barracks some of whom do not know each other) I know are all lying to their OH's when they claim they they have no work as it is the 'army' day off - amazingly - they all do this on the very same day.

If they are lying - I know a few people would be very interested to hear that. Personally its no skin off my nose but I would quite enjoy watching the fireworks - esp from the Colonel's wife of some 25 years :P

Honestly, I don't know where to start.

I'm a member since 1985 and have never been in receipt of, or have heard of an allowance to member's who have handled loaded as opposed to unloaded weapons.. I think this is a figment of your imagination.

Additionally, I have been led to believe there is an 'army day off' every year (not sure if this includes navy/airforce) when the entire force in Ireland gets the day off. Either that or the 7 privates, 4 Sergeants, 1 Quarter Master Sergeant, 2 captains and a Colonel (stationed in different units/barracks some of whom do not know each other) I know are all lying to their OH's when they claim they they have no work as it is the 'army' day off - amazingly - they all do this on the very same day.

Are you feeling ok?.

Btw, Col's do not do duties and although we've all heard of the nutty Col with gout I think he hear's less voices than you at present.

Bannasidhe

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know where to start.

I'm a member since 1985 and have never been in receipt of, or have heard of an allowance to member's who have handled loaded as opposed to unloaded weapons.. I think this is a figment of your imagination.



Are you feeling ok?.

Btw, Col's do not do duties and although we've all heard of the nutty Col with gout I think he hear's less voices than you at present.

Tell me this - is it a good example for a MOD - albeit in another forum - to resort to insults? What ever happened to the attack the post not the poster rule?

I have been led to believe by members of all ranks (by the way - the Colonel was surprisingly enough not always a Colonel so he did actually 'do duties' during his career) within the PDF that there is an army day off every year when the entire force stationed in Ireland are all on leave on the same day. Do you deny this?

I was also led to believe that at least in the 1990s there was a 'loaded gun' allowance - when I asked a then serving Lt Colonel about this in front of witnesses he confirmed it. Was he lying even as a dinner party of people laughed about it?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Tell me this - is it a good example for a MOD - albeit in another forum - to resort to insults? What ever happened to the attack the post not the poster rule?

I have been led to believe by members of all ranks (by the way - the Colonel was surprisingly enough not always a Colonel so he did actually 'do duties' during his career) within the PDF that there is an army day off every year when the entire force stationed in Ireland are all on leave on the same day. Do you deny this?

I was also led to believe that at least in the 1990s there was a 'loaded gun' allowance - when I asked a then serving Lt Colonel about this in front of witnesses he confirmed it. Was he lying even as a dinner party of people laughed about it?

I'm in bed now and the phone is not so flexible as the cimputer to reply.

1. I don't mean ant insults but what your posting is pure madness.

2. There has never been an allowance for handling a loaded weapon as opposed to an unloaded one.

Oh the day off.. Your commission friend is trying to make a idiot out of you - defriend him.

Yitzhak Rabin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know where to start.

I'm a member since 1985 and have never been in receipt of, or have heard of an allowance to member's who have handled loaded as opposed to unloaded weapons.. I think this is a figment of your imagination.



Are you feeling ok?.

Btw, Col's do not do duties and although we've all heard of the nutty Col with gout I think he hear's less voices than you at present.

Tell me this - is it a good example for a MOD - albeit in another forum - to resort to insults? What ever happened to the attack the post not the poster rule?

I have been led to believe by members of all ranks (by the way - the Colonel was surprisingly enough not always a Colonel so he did actually 'do duties' during his career) within the PDF that there is an army day off every year when the entire force stationed in Ireland are all on leave on the same day. Do you deny this?

I was also led to believe that at least in the 1990s there was a 'loaded gun' allowance - when I asked a then serving Lt Colonel about this in front of witnesses he confirmed it. Was he lying even as a dinner party of people laughed about it?

Colonel mustard only made that joke at the dinner party so he could slip away undetected a kill professor green with a candlestick in the library.

But seriously, there has never been a loaded gun allowance, let alone one worth 8 pounds. The only days that everyone gets off are Sunday's and bank holidays, and even then a lot of people have to work them (without any of the overtime that other public service employees get)

Manic Moran

Although I do get a substantial amount of days off in the US, I view it a payback for events where those days off are forfeited. I did nine months on deployment without a single day off at all, probably worth some days back here and there. I would think most Western militaries would be similar

K-9

realies wrote: »

We could save a large amount of money if we would abolish the Army and the Department of Defence with it - and be as peaceful and neutral as we always pretend to be.The Navel service and the Aer corps could be amalgamated into a new and strengthened Coast guard, which could also have some land-based units. It should be governed by a restored dept of the marine, which should also get responsibility for Fishing and Natural Resources. And finally we could have an even better Police force maybe even a paramilitary force. So in my opinion we dont need an Army as in the one we have now,

Switzerland is as neutral as you get and has a big army.

Part of the point of neutrality is you don't rely on others for defence, say us just relying on the Brits. People like the idea of neutrality, not the reality.

Conscription could be a part of being truely neutral too, we don't like that type of thing usually.

yosser hughes

Anyone know how much it costs to run the Army every year? I have heard JillKLirby say it's around 1 billion!:eek:

Sunnyisland

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

Ireland's favourable geographical location, on the north-west border of the European Union, makes any external threat or future invasion unlikely. The state has a long-standing policy of non-belligerence in armed conflicts that included neutrality in World War II. For these reasons, the states military capabilities are relatively modest. However having said that, the state has a long history of involvement in United Nations Peacekeeping operations (UNFICYP, UNIFIL, UNISOM, UNMEE, EUFOR-Chat) .
Functions of the Defence Forces include:

Preparation for the defence of the state against armed attack, both internally and against external enemies

Assisting the Garda Síochána (police force), including the protection of the internal security of the state.

Peace-keeping, crisis management and humanitarian relief operations in support of the United Nations.

Policing the fisheries, in accordance with the state's obligations under European Union agreements.

Miscellaneous civil contingency duties requested by the Government such as search and rescue, air ambulance provision, providing secure air transport for ministers, assistance in the event of natural and other disasters, ensuring the maintenance of essential services, and assisting in dealing with oil pollution at sea.



Your figures re. army strength are at least three years out of date.

I think you said earlier in the thread you have family members in the defence forces, if your quoting those people they're idiots who know All (we call them 'empty heads') or your making up stuff.

You're not very good at this.

Next.

I have never said i was quoting them and there far from idiots with two of them having given there lifetime to serving in the defence forces,less of your condescending attitude there also your not very good at explaining why we need an 8000 army or whatever the figure is,when the majority of them do fcuk all everyday.

Bannasidhe

K-9 wrote: »

Switzerland is as neutral as you get and has a big army.

Part of the point of neutrality is you don't rely on others for defence, say us just relying on the Brits. People like the idea of neutrality, not the reality.

Conscription could be a part of being truely neutral too, we don't like that type of thing usually.

Switzerland has a large militia and a small standing army. I proposed the adoption of a Swiss style military a few posts back.

Bannasidhe

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

I'm in bed now and the phone is not so flexible as the cimputer to reply.

1. I don't mean ant insults but what your posting is pure madness.

2. There has never been an allowance for handling a loaded weapon as opposed to an unloaded one.

Oh the day off.. Your commission friend is trying to make a idiot out of you - defriend him.

Then I shall tell my sister today that her husband has been skiving off when claiming he is on the army day off - as he has done once a year for the 19 years of their marriage. I'm sure she will be pleased to hear that.

And telling some one they hear voices is a tad insulting.

Guns and days off notwithstanding. I have yet to see a convincing argument for why we need to maintain such a large standing army, particularly when our navy is in relative terms so under resourced.