Gibraltar - British or Spanish?

Tiocfaidh Armani

Batsy wrote: »

The Spanish have already done something similar elsewhere in the world.

Spain claims ownership of Perejil Island - which is off the coast of Morocco, not Spain.

Morocco believes it should have the island.

Good post but you failed to mention it's an uninhabited rock basically, like Rockall, it's worthless.

Carter P Fly

Its weird that I still have Gibraltar sterling in my wallet two years later cos nowhere, including some high street UK banks will accept the currency outside of the little overcrowded overpriced kip of a place.

Necron

Spanish, it was originally part of Spain and geographically still is so in my opinion should be theirs.

reprazant

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Good post but you failed to mention it's an uninhabited rock basically, like Rockall, it's worthless.

Ceuta and Melilla are neither uninhabited nor worthless.

Spain is not exactly rushing to give them back.

tiger55

Necron wrote: »

Spanish, it was originally part of Spain and geographically still is so in my opinion should be theirs.

Gibraltar sovereignty referendum, 1967




A=Join Spain
B=Remain British

(a) 44 Votes 0.36%

(b) 12,138 Votes 99.19%

Spoiled ballots 55 0.45%

Total 12,237 100%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_1967

I would call this pretty decisive!!!!

Gibraltar sovereignty referendum, 2002

The people of Gibraltar, the small, fiercely British colony at the tip of southern Spain, overwhelmingly rejected the idea of shared sovereignty between London and Madrid in a vote whose results were announced early this morning.

In totals shortly after 2:30 a.m., the no vote was 98.9 percent, with 17,900 no ballots cast, 187 yes votes and 72 blank votes.


http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/08/world/gibraltar-rejects-power-sharing-between-britain-and-spain.html?pagewanted=1


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_2002


This vote was to share power with Spain (joint sovereignty), again this is pretty decisive!

Tiocfaidh Armani

reprazant wrote: »

Ceuta and Melilla are neither uninhabited nor worthless.

Spain is not exactly rushing to give them back.

I wasn't fecking talking about them though, I was talking about Perejil Island, which is just a bleeding rock in the sea.

Paparazzo

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

I wasn't fecking talking about them though, I was talking about Perejil Island, which is just a bleeding rock in the sea.

With the rock in the sea comes fishing and mineral rights, and you can extend your territory. Far from worthless. If Rockall was worthless, there wouldn't be about 6 countries trying to claim it.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Paparazzo wrote: »

With the rock in the sea comes fishing and mineral rights, and you can extend your territory.

True, I'm aware of that, but there has been none for feck sake.

getz

Carter P Fly wrote: »

Its weird that I still have Gibraltar sterling in my wallet two years later cos nowhere, including some high street UK banks will accept the currency outside of the little overcrowded overpriced kip of a place.

my wifes family have no problem spending gib stirling in the U K.legally its no different than scottish,northern ireland,and isle of man money,as long as it has stirling on it its legal tender,all i can think is ,that as most people havent seen it, it puts them off taking it.

blackwhite

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Gibraltar was a spoils of war territorial land grab, which became a strategic base for The Royal Navy. So considering it is land seized from Spain, as far as I'm concerned it belongs to Spain.

Spain signed a number of treaties, beginning with the Treaty of Utrecht which initially ceded Gibraltar to the British, and latter re-affirmed it's status.
The current official Spanish position is that they want the Treaty of Utrecht to be rescinded. Even the Spanish recognise that the peninsula belongs to Britain.
Seems like the "Brits are always wrong" brigade on here are the only ones who can't understand this.

Sunnyisland

getz wrote: »

my wife's family have no problem spending gib stirling in the U K.legally its no different than scottish,northern ireland,and isle of man money,as long as it has stirling on it its legal tender,all i can think is ,that as most people haven't seen it, it puts them off taking it.

All always had trouble trying to use NI sterling & scottish sterling in England unless the note was bank of england.

getz

realies wrote: »

All always had trouble trying to use NI sterling & scottish sterling in England unless the note was bank of england.

its all to do with the english public not understanding,[thats the kind word the word i would like to use is to thick] but most any supermarket take them,the problem in the UK at this time is that there has been such a large ethnic intake into the country,that many have no british background and culture,even in my wifes case,one goverment department did not know that the citizens of gibraltar were british,the minister for transport sorted it,sent them all at the DVLA for retraining

NinjaK

Its Spanish land populated by invaders. Anyone can invade an island, populate it by their people, run a vote and hey presto they have legitimacy to stay there, nonsense.

guernlad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgSgsxNVBPI

guernlad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgSgsxNVBPI

raymann

NinjaK wrote: »

Its Spanish land populated by invaders. Anyone can invade an island, populate it by their people, run a vote and hey presto they have legitimacy to stay there, nonsense.

what do you propose? where do you want to send the people that live there?

if spain sign away land as part of a treaty should the descendants of the people that moved their be punished because spain has changed its mind 300 years later?

what about the spanish colonies in morocco?

what about reunion island or the millions of other examples?

Batsy

NinjaK wrote: »

Its Spanish land populated by invaders. Anyone can invade an island, populate it by their people, run a vote and hey presto they have legitimacy to stay there, nonsense.

The reason why Gibraltar (whch is not an island but is actually a peninsula jutting out into the Med which shares a land border with Spain to its north and was also once a Spanish town) is a British possession dates to the War of Spanish Succession (1701 - 1714).

This war came about after it became evident that the physically and mentally infirm King Charles II of Spain could not produce an heir. Because of this candidates had to be sought among the descendants of the king's sisters.

As a result two royal dynasties laid claim to the Spanish throne - the French Bourbons and the Austrian Habsburgs, both closely related to Charles and to his father, Philip IV.

The heir general to Charles II of Spain was the French Bourbon monarch Louis, Le Grand Dauphin, who was, bizarrely, the son of his elder half-sister, Maria Theresa, and Louis XIV. Louis and Charles II of Spain were also first cousins once removed.

Had Le Grand Dauphin taken the Spanish throne upon the death of Charles II (as well as taking his own country's throne upon the death of Louis XIV) he would have united France and Spain - two of the most powerful countries in Europe at the time - as one vast, powerful nation.

Such a thought horrified some European powers. As a result two blocs emerged: those countries supporting the Bourbon claim to the Spanish throne (France, Bavaria and parts of Spain) and those supporting the Habsburg claim to the Spanish throne (the Habsburgs, England [Great Britain from 1707], the Dutch Republic, the Duchy of Savoy, Prussia, Portugal and some parts of Spain).

These blocs went to war with the supporters of the Habsburgs prevailing.

In 1704, during the war, a combined English/Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar in southern Spain, leading to a permanent exodus of the existing population to the surrounding areas of the Campo de Gibraltar.

The war was ended due to the signing of a couple of treaties, including the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht.

This treaty decided which major European powers were to have certain territories around the globe formerly owned by the French and Spanish.

For example, in North America, France ceded to the newly-created Great Britain its claims to the Hudson's Bay Company territories in Rupert's Land, Newfoundland and Acadia. The formerly partitioned island of Saint Kitts was also ceded in its entirety to Britain. France was required to recognize British suzerainty over the Iroquois and commerce with the Far Indians was to be open to traders of all nations. France retained its other pre-war North American possessions, including Île-Saint-Jean (now Prince Edward Island) as well as Île Royale (now Cape Breton Island), on which it erected the Fortress of Louisbourg.

Spain's empire was divided thus: Savoy received Sicily and parts of the Duchy of Milan, while Charles VI (the Holy Roman Emperor and Archduke of Austria), received the Spanish Netherlands, the Kingdom of Naples, Sardinia, and the bulk of the Duchy of Milan. Portugal had its sovereignty recognised over the lands between the Amazon and Oyapock rivers, in Brazil. In 1715, the Portuguese also recovered Colonia del Sacramento, taken by Spain in Uruguay.

In addition, Spain ceded Gibraltar and Minorca to Great Britain and agreed to give to the British the Asiento, a valuable monopoly slave-trading contract.

Gibraltar was actually granted to Britain "in perpetuity" - meaning forever.

In European Elections, the purposes of which Britain is divided into constituencies, Gibraltar is actually considered part of the South West England constituency.

Warper

An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar from Spain in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain "in perpetuity" under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. It was an important base for the British Royal Navy; today its economy is based largely on tourism, financial services, and shipping.[5][6]

The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory.[6] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in a 1967 referendum and again in 2002. Under Gibraltar constitution of 2006, Gibraltar governs its own affairs, though some powers, such as defence and foreign relations, remain the responsibility of the UK Government.

Batsy

Warper wrote: »

The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory.

Spain can't get Gibraltar back. The 1713 Treaty of Utrecht ceded Gibraltar to Britain for ever. For eternity. For evermore. Until the end of time. For ever and ever, amen.

Well, Spain can get Gibraltar back but only if the Gibraltareans vote for their homeland to become Spanish. But that's highly unlikely.

gurramok

The loser of the war had no choice at the time, the winner took all.

Did the inhabitants of Gibraltar in 1713 agree to be expelled from their homeland? You know the answer, it was ethnic cleansing by the British with British friendly settlers taking the original inhabitants place.

Fratton Fred

NinjaK wrote: »

Its Spanish land populated by invaders. Anyone can invade an island, populate it by their people, run a vote and hey presto they have legitimacy to stay there, nonsense.

Anyone, especially the Spanish. They usually carted the locals off into slavery as well.

It makes me laugh the way Spain are being portrayed as some sort of oppressed nation.

Dotrel

England are playing Spain on Saturday. Give Gibraltar to the winner. Spain.

HavingCrack

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Anyone, especially the Spanish. They usually carted the locals off into slavery as well.

It makes me laugh the way Spain are being portrayed as some sort of oppressed nation.

Especially considering they still control Ceuta and Mellila themselves. I think it's a bit rich that they demand control of Gibraltar when they're quite happy to sit on land in North Africa.

gurramok

HavingCrack wrote: »

Especially considering they still control Ceuta and Mellila themselves. I think it's a bit rich that they demand control of Gibraltar when they're quite happy to sit on land in North Africa.

Do 2 wrongs make it right? We're not discussing Spain's past conquests but Britains conquest of Gibraltar as Gibraltar is in the subject title.

The original Gibraltarians had no say in who their new masters should be.

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

Do 2 wrongs make it right? We're not discussing Spain's past conquests but Britains conquest of Gibraltar as Gibraltar is in the subject title.

The original Gibraltarians had no say in who their new masters should be.

that's right. How dare the Spanish steal Gibralter from the Ottomans.

tinofapples

R P McMurphy wrote: »

It is a pretty horrible place as is the Spanish town on its border

La Linea De La Concepcion !! Brother lives there and works in Gib.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Having been there i can safely say its spanish. They drive on the right and they speak spanish even the bobbies/police speak spanish. The people are mediteranean in their look (dark hair, sallow skin) Britian may 'own' the country but thats where it ends.

Mike 1972

gurramok wrote: »

Did the inhabitants of Gibraltar in 1713 agree to be expelled from their homeland? You know the answer, .

Well if any of them show up they can have it back.

gurramok

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that's right. How dare the Spanish steal Gibralter from the Ottomans.

What? the Ottomans stole it in the first place!

Alot of anti-Spanish bigotry in your posts, sounds familiar? :P

Mike 1972 wrote:

Well if any of them show up they can have it back.

They probably have descendants

Mike 1972

gurramok wrote: »

They probably have descendants

So when the Native Americans send Whitey packing but let the African Americans stay if they pay rent how should they deal with those of mixed ancestry ?