Junior Cert to be abolished

bluto63

There's more to education than just being able to learn off facts. I think this is a great idea, and I believe that the leaving cert will eventually follow suit.

Caraville

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Have you permanent status yet? In my experience its the teachers who are on year long contracts that do all the extra curriculars so the principal keeps them on for another year instead of another colleague.

I don't have permanent status yet but I'm pretty confident that my job is secure. To be honest, personally I'd be happy to do the extra curricular stuff regardless of my contract status- I'd say though if/when I have children of my own I'd definitely have to re-think it because it's just so time consuming. But yeah what often happens in schools is that the non-permanent teachers bend over backwards doing stuff trying to please the principal. What really gets my goat is things like school masses, school concerts etc and some teachers never go to these. If nothing else, you should be there to support your colleagues. The students appreciate when teachers go to these things too. I know I'm not teaching 20 years or whatever so perhaps that's easy for me to say, but I'd like to think I'll always make an effort to attend these things.

Fbjm wrote: »

Are you teaching the same class the whole way up to leaving cert or something?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this... sometimes you do have a class from 1st-6th year but that's not what's adding to the workload. Actually if anything that makes life a lot easier because you know them so well and they know you and your way of teaching. But what I meant by the workload increasing is all the paperwork and meetings we have to attend (which rarely actually solve anything) that decreases the amount of time we have to dedicate to our students.

FlashD

Columbia wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea.

Next we need to start giving credit for sports, as we already do for music and art.

There is no next about it, we should be doing it already.

Different students are interested in different things. I think it's important that schools focus on the students interests rather than beating something like Irish into them.

A lot of good Irish did me, I never used the language since I left school all of 18 years ago, a waste of time and energy on my part and a waste of taxpayers money, I would have been better off learning Chinese or German.

Jimoslimos

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I am not just talking about musicals. Secondary education puts no emphasis on team work which is vital to university as well as life. Those who can take part in team work and study individually are much better well rounded individuals than those who only perform one or the other.

Universities in the UK, especially the redbricks, already take a dim view on students who take so-called 'soft subjects' to A-level. Most prefer an emphasis on the established core-curriculum.

parker kent

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Universities in the UK, especially the redbricks, already take a dim view on students who take so-called 'soft subjects' to A-level. Most prefer an emphasis on the established core-curriculum.

Nobody is saying the core curriculum should be ignored. I presumed that to be obvious. This is also preparing a more rounded student for when the time comes to sit the leaving cert (i.e when they sit the core curriculum that universities outside Ireland evaluate).

parker kent

FlashD wrote: »

A lot of good Irish did me, I never used the language since I left school all of 18 years ago, a waste of time and energy on my part and a waste of taxpayers money, I would have been better off learning Chinese or German.

This is also wrong IMO. Learning a language, any language, improves your mental capacities. It is like Maths, the long-term benefits are learning how to problem solve, as opposed to learning the actual material itself. It's about creating a way of thinking.

mackg

phasers wrote: »

unless the leaving cert is similarly altered then this is not only pointless, but could be detrimental to some students. Readjusting after 4th year is hard for some, imagine never having any structure in the first place?

And participating in a book club? Is that real? That sounds like LCA 'getting marks for attendance' crap.

40% CA means there is still exams worth 60% at the end, so they are still very important just not the do or die system we have now. It's not like kids will go into leaving cert having never seen an exam. Also considering what's at stake in the LC introducing an untested system at that level could be disastrous for the students who have to deal with it, better to see how it goes at JC level IMO before introducing it at LC level.

FlashD

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Universities in the UK, especially the redbricks, already take a dim view on students who take so-called 'soft subjects' to A-level. Most prefer an emphasis on the established core-curriculum.

I see your point but what good is something like physics to a student who wants to go on to do music and drama...in fairness like!

Students who choose music, drama & art are not headed towards redbricks as you call them, they already have their mind made up.

the_syco

Final exams will no longer be the main focus as 40% of all subject marks will be awarded on the basis of continuous assessment over two years.

Bullsh|t. Fee paying schools can give the full 40% or risk loosing business, me thinks. Lots of other bullsh|t regarding grades, etc. Oh, and can we make up a list of teachers to be culled. There's a few f**ktard teachers who deserve to be culled as they're so useless.

=-=

<Snip>

smash

FlashD wrote: »

Some students are right lazy sods, they need a bit of incentive to get up off their arses

Is good education = good career not incentive enough?

parker kent

smash wrote: »

Is good education = good career not incentive enough?

Anybody that has ever worked in education would be able to tell you that is a no. There are dozens of reasons why the current system fails so many students and why students disengage (obviously some just are lazy).

The JCSP scheme has worked well in disadvantaged schools and is not too dissimilar from the new proposals.

FlashD

smash wrote: »

Is good education = good career not incentive enough?

Yes you're right, I see your point but unfortunately students at that age don't see the world like adults see it. They don't see the bigger picture.

Columbia

FlashD wrote: »

There is no next about it, we should be doing it already.

Different students are interested in different things. I think it's important that schools focus on the students interests rather than beating something like Irish into them.

A lot of good Irish did me, I never used the language since I left school all of 18 years ago, a waste of time and energy on my part and a waste of taxpayers money, I would have been better off learning Chinese or German.

Yes, we should be doing it already. The Irish are supposed to be a "sporting people" but there is nothing at all done to support it in school. If students had dedicated time to work on their chosen sport (not in the evenings when they're wrecked from school, as I had to do), as well as receive education in injury prevention and such things, Ireland would see results on the world stage. Ain't gonna happen though, in my opinion.

smash wrote: »

Is good education = good career not incentive enough?

No, not when you're 12 or 13 years old.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

smash wrote: »

Is good education = good career not incentive enough?

Were you one of my teachers when I did the Junior Cert?

Orando Broom

The Wesley disco will lose big time. Expect strong lobbying.

FlashD

Columbia wrote: »

Yes, we should be doing it already. The Irish are supposed to be a "sporting people" but there is nothing at all done to support it in school. If students had dedicated time to work on their chosen sport (not in the evenings when they're wrecked from school, as I had to do), as well as receive education in injury prevention and such things, Ireland would see results on the world stage. Ain't gonna happen though, in my opinion.
.

Thing is if you took the GAA out of Ireland, there would be not a whole lot of organised sport for kids to play especially in rural areas.

Goes to show how much emphasis there is on sport from the goverment. I remember at school only ever doing one PE class per week.

spurious

All it is is proper implementation of what the JC was supposed to be in 1992 - twenty wasted years.

Mardy Bum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

This is a wonderful speech about the benefits of fostering a wider degree of intelligence instead of the usual rote learning.

This new JC should go some way towards helping those that are intelligent in other ways instead of the traditionally accepted views.

rainbowtrout

Here's the document outlining the new Junior Cert:

http://ncca.ie/framework/doc/NCCA-Junior-Cycle.pdf

For the tl;dr brigade here are the highlights

Regular JC subjects will be 40% continuous assessment and 60% exam. Assessment to be carried out by teachers and externally moderated by SEC.

Students must complete one of the following combinations for Junior Cert -

• 8 regular subjects
• 7 regular subjects and two short courses
• 6 regular subjects and four short courses

Students must do English, Irish and Maths, each of which will be examined at two levels and all other subjects at common level.

Short courses can be from a list which has been prepared by Dept of Ed or school can devise their own short course. Short courses are 100% Portfolio and assessed by the school, no external moderation.


The potential short course list in this document lists:

• Cultural studies
• Sustainable living and resource management
• Debating/public speaking
• Write a book
• Development Education
• Leadership
• Book club
• Making choices
• Personal finance
• School musical/drama performance
• Coaching in the community
• Being innovative -Product design
• Web design
• Creating an e-portfolio
• Chinese language and culture
• Mathematics for living and work

Short courses must be allocated 100 hours over three years (so roughly an hour a week), so it would suggest that some of this time would be timetabled and structured rather than all after school stuff. It's not compulsory either and the introverted student can ignore the short courses if they choose - depending on the set up in their school of course.

challengemaster

parker kent wrote: »

I highly doubt they will force kids to sing or dance. They are just 2 examples given in the report. They also mention book clubs and debating. There is nothing wrong with being introverted, but this type of thing will boost an awful lot of kids. Plus it will give them a much more rounded education. JC results mean nothing in the long-term. Producing better educated people is more important than teaching someone how to regurgitate a text-book.

Let me use myself as an example of how this will be shíte unless they manage to cater for everyone

I can't sing, lack the timing/rhythm to dance. I don't like reading books, and would hate debating. I also hate the sports 98% of people think are the only ones that exist; soccer, rugby, GAA, and I could just about tolerate basketball.

So what was I interested in then? Techie stuff. I could spend hours in front of a computer reading things that interest me, I was building pcs since 14/15, IMO competitive online gaming requires more skill and thinking than football. Non-standard sports like MA, Archery... So what exactly would I have gotten these CA marks for under this system?

shofukan

rainbowtrout wrote: »

All of the proposed new stuff

Severe lack of legit IT stuff there.
Kids need to be learning this.

Caraville

rainbowtrout wrote: »

depending on the set up in their school of course.

Well therein lies a massive problem. It will all depend on what skills the teachers in the school have to offer. Also a lot or schools don't have the resources for these things. And then is there any set curriculum for these short courses? How are they examined or assessed. Is it simply a case of turning up? Why should a student who has the lead in a musical get the same amount of marks as someone who turns up to rehearsals and hangs around the chorus in the background?

I actually think a lot of the changes are great, but in theory. In practice there is a lot of resource gathering and upskilling needed to be done, and I don't know where the money is for this.

I don't like the idea that everything bar Irish English and Maths will be assessed at a common level. This will inevitably mean that either the strong students will find that things have been dumbed down, or weaker students will struggle. The new Leaving Cert Irish Oral exam is an example of where that can happen- it should be fine for Higher Level students, but it's ridiculously difficult for the Ordinary Level students.

Mardy Bum

challengemaster wrote: »

Let me use myself as an example of how this will be shíte unless they manage to cater for everyone

I can't sing, lack the timing/rhythm to dance. I don't like reading books, and would hate debating. I also hate the sports 98% of people think are the only ones that exist; soccer, rugby, GAA, and I could just about tolerate basketball.

So what was I interested in then? Techie stuff. I could spend hours in front of a computer reading things that interest me, I was building pcs since 14/15, IMO competitive online gaming requires more skill and thinking than football. Non-standard sports like MA, Archery... So what exactly would I have gotten these CA marks for under this system?

Being innovative -Product design
Web design
Creating an e-portfolio

There are three things that would suit you that are on the potential short course list so you don't have to debate or read.

Superbus

RIP, he lived a good life.

Mindkiller

I think the continuous assessment with an exam at the end is a good system, but I'm puzzled why they're doing it for JC but not LC. JC means jack**** and like others said, the different structure is only going to alienate a lot of people when they do the LC.

Either way, this sponging up of knowledge and learning by rote only to regurgitate whatever scraps of information you've retained in one 2-3hr exam is stupid.

conorhal

Lets be honest, Western educationalists have been pulling this nonsense for decades.
When standards begin to decline, marks begin to fall and students can't seem to grasp basic mathematics and literacy skills, the educationalists that are failing at their most basic goals do what they always do, they simply move the goalposts.
Dumbing down is a real problem in our education system.

No doubt falling maths scores will soon be remedied by removing maths as a required subject for the LC in the same manner that the English did for their A levels.

Ficheall

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, no?

Where on earth is the money coming from for all the new equipment, training, and staff that will be required?

After all the complaints about how Maths, to pick a prime example, isn't taught well enough in schools, they're now going to make it, effectively, so that instead of passing your maths exam you can join a reading group or somesuch. And if Maths and Irish are despised by so many now, it will be even moreso when the alternatives are Painting, reading, arsing about, instead of history or geography or what have you.

And this might theoretically work in some dreamland where all things were equal and one's PE class didn't consist of running around a field for an hour until you got sick, or you sat in a library pretending to read, or you just went a bit cracked for a while. Not all schools will have all the options available - sure, some might have a computer class, but others might find it more convenient to let you go out and kick a ball around outside.
The differences between enthusiastic, intelligent teachers in big budget schools and lazy, thick teachers in poorer schools will be more pronounced than ever. And colleges will look for students who have been involved, for example, in a successful production of Les Mis over, say, a small nativity play. So the schools will need more money, and eventually the wealthier kids will end up going to the better schools etc, and then people will be whining all over again. Possibly.

And no offence to the "dramatic" and "musical" folk out there, but they're feck all use to anyone really, aside from, perhaps some light entertainment. I realise it's only JC, for the moment, but I can't see them igniting many of the shining lights for our supposed 'knowledge economy' with this lark.

We did musicals, concerts, plays, debating, ceilis, sports etc. in our school for Junior Cert. I hated them. The embarrassment from all that crap still haunts me (slight exaggeration) and certainly hasn't made me any less introverted than I would otherwise have been.
Not that there's anything at all wrong with being introverted. I'd far rather if I had to associate with a few more introverts every day than the loud-mouthed gob****es who feel the need to be the centre of attention or show everyone how much better than everyone else they are. It's all horribly American.

ilovesleep

For me, the biggest benefit of the JC was that it was a mock for the LC because the LC exams followed in a similiar pattern. So I hope with this new news they reform the leaving cert as well.

megaten

Can't see the teachers being to happy about this. I doubt it'll make it through.

ScumLord

smash wrote: »

Hardly educational...

I would say it maybe more educational in some respects. In the real world when you're in a real job the skills you'd learn putting on a play would be much more important than just having information. Information out of context is completely useless, but being able to work with other people to organise something that no one person could achieve on their own is the foundation of all human progress. It's not the end result that's particularly important here it's what they learn along the way.