Junior Cert to be abolished

Mr. Manager

According to RTE -

Minister for Education Ruairi Quinn has approved plans to abolish the Junior Certificate and replaced it with a radical new programme.
The new system, which will be introduced in schools from 2014, will see a much greater emphasis on continuous assessment.
Children who are now in fourth class in primary school will be the first to experience the new programme, which will also allow students gain marks for activities such as debating or drama.
Final exams will no longer be the main focus as 40% of all subject marks will be awarded on the basis of continuous assessment over two years.
Schools will also have the option of being able to award marks for activities currently regarded as extra curricular, such as putting on a school musical or participating in a book club.
The plans were published just over a month ago by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment.
However, the NCCA has warned that real transformation will not happen unless teachers get additional training and schools the resources they will need to implement change.

Link - http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1103/juniorcert.html

Thoughts?

IMO, it's about bloody time. The thing was a hyped up useless exam. Should have been concentrating on the bigger picture.

karaokeman

One word.... yay:D

smash

"Schools will also have the option of being able to award marks for activities currently regarded as extra curricular, such as putting on a school musical or participating in a book club."

Hardly educational...

Oranage2

This is bullsh!t -

What am I meant to do junior cert results night now?

danniemcq

Thr drink industry will fight this

super_furry

The junior cert is an absolute waste of time.

Zhavey

Won't make much of a difference except that it will be more of a stranger territory entering Senior cycle. Junior Cert really is nothing.

Dotrel

smash wrote: »

"Schools will also have the option of being able to award marks for activities currently regarded as extra curricular, such as putting on a school musical or participating in a book club."

Hardly educational...

Well then it should fit right in with pretty much everything else that goes on in these 'centres of learning' (aka state funded child minding services).

I remember our secondary school religion class consisted of a Christian Brother who made each lad in the class read a verse from the New Testament in turn until the bell for end of class went. We did this 2-3 times a week for 40 minutes for 2 years until the old fúcker finally dropped dead. If that isn't deliberate crowd control then I don't know what is.

The other subjects weren't much more productive or educational either.

k4kate

smash wrote: »

"Schools will also have the option of being able to award marks for activities currently regarded as extra curricular, such as putting on a school musical or participating in a book club."

Hardly educational...

Very educational actually, helping to turn out well rounded people.

Frank Black

smash wrote: »

"Schools will also have the option of being able to award marks for activities currently regarded as extra curricular, such as putting on a school musical or participating in a book club."

Hardly educational...

Reading books is educational.

And as for musicals, there's a lot of 'life lessons' you can pick up.

West Side Story - gang culture is ultimately dangerous.
Phantom of the Opera - don't judge people on their looks.
Fiddler on the Roof - Russian Jews aren't all miserable.
Cats - Cats are dirty feckers who should never be kept as pets.
Spiderman - Big budget musicals can be a financial and critical disaster.

phasers

unless the leaving cert is similarly altered then this is not only pointless, but could be detrimental to some students. Readjusting after 4th year is hard for some, imagine never having any structure in the first place?

And participating in a book club? Is that real? That sounds like LCA 'getting marks for attendance' crap.

Mardy Bum

smash wrote: »

"Schools will also have the option of being able to award marks for activities currently regarded as extra curricular, such as putting on a school musical or participating in a book club."

Hardly educational...

If you seen the level of literacy skills some children have leaving primary school a book club is about the best thing they could have. Putting on a musical takes time, team work, skill and patience these are important qualities that should be encouraged at that age. The children that sit in front of books all day and don't take part in extra curricular activities are generally introverted and it is this sort of thing which will foster a much more inclusionary feeling in a school and help the children personally.

Turtyturd

Dotrel wrote: »

Well then it should fit right in with pretty much everything else that goes on in these 'centres of learning' (aka state funded child minding services).

I remember our secondary school religion class consisted of a Christian Brother who made each lad in the class read a verse from the New Testament in turn until the bell for end of class went. We did this 2-3 times a week for 40 minutes for 2 years until the old fúcker finally dropped dead. If that isn't deliberate crowd control then I don't know what is.

The other subjects weren't much more productive or educational either.

Is this a fool proof method of killing a Christian Brother??...and can it be sped up?

spurious

Interesting idea of 'education' implied in many of the responses here.

Lollipops23

smash wrote: »

"Schools will also have the option of being able to award marks for activities currently regarded as extra curricular, such as putting on a school musical or participating in a book club."

Hardly educational...

Actually I found being involved in shows in school infinitely more fulfilling than most of my classes. It was a lesson in hard graft and commitment.

I don't remember there being a whole lot of stress regarding the JC- I studied mainly from Xmas onwards, although certainly never killed myself for it. Got 8 hons barely breaking a sweat.

Should they not focus on the LC, where it actually affects people's futures?

Dotrel

Turtyturd wrote: »

Is this a fool proof method of killing a Christian Brother??...and can it be sped up?

It was our first kill so it was as much a happy coincidence as opposed to something we'd believed could be a fool proof solution.

We were reading a fairly lethargic pace so it'd probably could be sped up to one year result if your heart was in the verse delivery.

smash

School plays and book clubs already exist, but why should you get extra points for getting involved with them?

Redlion

Like a previous poster has said, it's useless unless they bring in the same system for the Leaving Cert. If the Leaving Cert followed suit, It'd be of some benefit, allowing students to become similar to the same style of grading as most universities/colleges in Ireland.

Sykk

smash wrote: »

"Schools will also have the option of being able to award marks for activities currently regarded as extra curricular, such as putting on a school musical or participating in a book club."

Hardly educational...

I agree, but still better than the tripe within the junior cert.. Biggest waste of time and money.

MetalDog

Junior Cert revised syllabus 2014:

Q1: If 6 cans of Dutch Gold are €7, how many cans can you get for €7?

Q2: What will be the sum total of Chantelle when she tells Deco that the baby is not his?

Q3: Anto has bought half a kilo of coke for two grand. He wants to make 300% on the deal and still pay Mad Mark his 10% protection money. How much must he charge for a gram?

Q4: How much extra child benefit will Amanda get if she has two more kids between now and when she turns 16?

Q5: Which is better, Bav, Dutch or Bucky? Illustrate your answer by projectile vomiting in your dad's car.

Q6: Amy's name is spelt "Amy" on her birth certificate, however she spells it "xxxAaimmeexxx". Calculate to the nearest decimal point, how much of a pretentious twat she is.

Q7: Mark has recently turned Emo. Imagine you are him - write a LiveJournal entry on how miserable your life is and how you "cant wait to feel deaths cold embrace", or some sh!t like that

Caraville

smash wrote: »

"Schools will also have the option of being able to award marks for activities currently regarded as extra curricular, such as putting on a school musical or participating in a book club."

Hardly educational...

Yeah they're educational alright but who do they expect is going to run these things? Is the department just assuming that teachers are going to do all these things after school? I know there are plenty on here who will say "sure ye're finished at 4, loads of spare time, blablabla" but honestly- I'm involved in helping out with the school musical and debating in my school and I have to say every so often my other work- corrections, preparing classes etc- suffers as a result and I get so swamped with work that I'm honestly considering stopping doing the extra-curricular stuff. Which makes me sad really, because I think it does benefit the students. But with the workload getting bigger every year, and these pointless "Croke Park Hours" that we have to do, I'm just getting a bit disheartened by it all...

Besides, these things- musicals, book clubs, etc, take a good bit of money to run. A half arsed effort at a musical would cost a minimum of €10,000 between rights, set, orchestra, costumes, etc. I don't know where the hell that money is supposed to come from.

And on top of all that, not once were any of us teachers, the ones who will have to carry out these changes they keep bringing in, consulted. Maybe a select group was, but I don't know any of these people anyway. I'm sure there's merit to some of the changes, but I dunno, I'm a young teacher and I find it hard to remain motivated at times. God only knows what the older teachers are thinking.

My name is URL

It's a pity cynicism isn't an extra curricular activity.

Mardy Bum

Caraville wrote: »

Yeah they're educational alright but who do they expect is going to run these things? Is the department just assuming that teachers are going to do all these things after school? I know there are plenty on here who will say "sure ye're finished at 4, loads of spare time, blablabla" but honestly- I'm involved in helping out with the school musical and debating in my school and I have to say every so often my other work- corrections, preparing classes etc- suffers as a result and I get so swamped with work that I'm honestly considering stopping doing the extra-curricular stuff. Which makes me sad really, because I think it does benefit the students. But with the workload getting bigger every year, and these pointless "Croke Park Hours" that we have to do, I'm just getting a bit disheartened by it all...

Besides, these things- musicals, book clubs, etc, take a good bit of money to run. A half arsed effort at a musical would cost a minimum of €10,000 between rights, set, orchestra, costumes, etc. I don't know where the hell that money is supposed to come from.

And on top of all that, not once were any of us teachers, the ones who will have to carry out these changes they keep bringing in, consulted. Maybe a select group was, but I don't know any of these people anyway. I'm sure there's merit to some of the changes, but I dunno, I'm a young teacher and I find it hard to remain motivated at times. God only knows what the older teachers are thinking.

Have you permanent status yet? In my experience its the teachers who are on year long contracts that do all the extra curriculars so the principal keeps them on for another year instead of another colleague.

Fbjm

The LCA has been doing this for years, and what people don't seem to realise is their program produces students every year who are far more capable for the 'real world', so to speak. They find it much easier to go into a working environment. However, if this is only brought in up to junior cert level and people who want to go straight from school into university are still forced to take the normal LC, then this is going to be detrimental to these students. I always thought the point of the junior cert was to prepare students for the leaving cert?

Jimoslimos

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The children that sit in front of books all day and don't take part in extra curricular activities are generally introverted and it is this sort of thing which will foster a much more inclusionary feeling in a school and help the children personally.

Is there something inherently wrong with being introverted? Some of us never felt the need to dance, sing and act our way through school.

Fbjm

Caraville wrote: »

Yeah they're educational alright but who do they expect is going to run these things? Is the department just assuming that teachers are going to do all these things after school? I know there are plenty on here who will say "sure ye're finished at 4, loads of spare time, blablabla" but honestly- I'm involved in helping out with the school musical and debating in my school and I have to say every so often my other work- corrections, preparing classes etc- suffers as a result and I get so swamped with work that I'm honestly considering stopping doing the extra-curricular stuff. Which makes me sad really, because I think it does benefit the students. But with the workload getting bigger every year, and these pointless "Croke Park Hours" that we have to do, I'm just getting a bit disheartened by it all...

Besides, these things- musicals, book clubs, etc, take a good bit of money to run. A half arsed effort at a musical would cost a minimum of €10,000 between rights, set, orchestra, costumes, etc. I don't know where the hell that money is supposed to come from.

And on top of all that, not once were any of us teachers, the ones who will have to carry out these changes they keep bringing in, consulted. Maybe a select group was, but I don't know any of these people anyway. I'm sure there's merit to some of the changes, but I dunno, I'm a young teacher and I find it hard to remain motivated at times. God only knows what the older teachers are thinking.

Are you teaching the same class the whole way up to leaving cert or something?

parker kent

smash wrote: »

"Schools will also have the option of being able to award marks for activities currently regarded as extra curricular, such as putting on a school musical or participating in a book club."

Hardly educational...

Of course those activities are educational. This will help produce more rounded students instead of the rote learning automatons the current system produces.

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Is there something inherently wrong with being introverted? Some of us never felt the need to dance, sing and act our way through school.

I highly doubt they will force kids to sing or dance. They are just 2 examples given in the report. They also mention book clubs and debating. There is nothing wrong with being introverted, but this type of thing will boost an awful lot of kids. Plus it will give them a much more rounded education. JC results mean nothing in the long-term. Producing better educated people is more important than teaching someone how to regurgitate a text-book.

token56

I like a lot of the ideas, continual assessment becoming a major part is definitely good I think. I'm not so sure about the extra credits thing for extra curricular activities. In principle there is nothing wrong with it and its probably a good idea, but I think trying to implement it in a cost effective way might be difficult, in terms of both schools having the facilities/equipment necessary and if these things start adding additional cost to parents. But overall I think the change is very welcome.

Mardy Bum

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Is there something inherently wrong with being introverted? Some of us never felt the need to dance, sing and act our way through school.

I am not just talking about musicals. Secondary education puts no emphasis on team work which is vital to university as well as life. Those who can take part in team work and study individually are much better well rounded individuals than those who only perform one or the other.

Columbia

Sounds like a good idea.

Next we need to start giving credit for sports, as we already do for music and art.

FlashD

smash wrote: »

School plays and book clubs already exist, but why should you get extra points for getting involved with them?

Why should a student not get extra points for getting involved?

Some students are right lazy sods, they need a bit of incentive to get up off their arses rather than stuck out behind some bushes drinking and smoking their heads off.

bluto63

There's more to education than just being able to learn off facts. I think this is a great idea, and I believe that the leaving cert will eventually follow suit.

Caraville

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Have you permanent status yet? In my experience its the teachers who are on year long contracts that do all the extra curriculars so the principal keeps them on for another year instead of another colleague.

I don't have permanent status yet but I'm pretty confident that my job is secure. To be honest, personally I'd be happy to do the extra curricular stuff regardless of my contract status- I'd say though if/when I have children of my own I'd definitely have to re-think it because it's just so time consuming. But yeah what often happens in schools is that the non-permanent teachers bend over backwards doing stuff trying to please the principal. What really gets my goat is things like school masses, school concerts etc and some teachers never go to these. If nothing else, you should be there to support your colleagues. The students appreciate when teachers go to these things too. I know I'm not teaching 20 years or whatever so perhaps that's easy for me to say, but I'd like to think I'll always make an effort to attend these things.

Fbjm wrote: »

Are you teaching the same class the whole way up to leaving cert or something?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this... sometimes you do have a class from 1st-6th year but that's not what's adding to the workload. Actually if anything that makes life a lot easier because you know them so well and they know you and your way of teaching. But what I meant by the workload increasing is all the paperwork and meetings we have to attend (which rarely actually solve anything) that decreases the amount of time we have to dedicate to our students.

FlashD

Columbia wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea.

Next we need to start giving credit for sports, as we already do for music and art.

There is no next about it, we should be doing it already.

Different students are interested in different things. I think it's important that schools focus on the students interests rather than beating something like Irish into them.

A lot of good Irish did me, I never used the language since I left school all of 18 years ago, a waste of time and energy on my part and a waste of taxpayers money, I would have been better off learning Chinese or German.

Jimoslimos

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I am not just talking about musicals. Secondary education puts no emphasis on team work which is vital to university as well as life. Those who can take part in team work and study individually are much better well rounded individuals than those who only perform one or the other.

Universities in the UK, especially the redbricks, already take a dim view on students who take so-called 'soft subjects' to A-level. Most prefer an emphasis on the established core-curriculum.

parker kent

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Universities in the UK, especially the redbricks, already take a dim view on students who take so-called 'soft subjects' to A-level. Most prefer an emphasis on the established core-curriculum.

Nobody is saying the core curriculum should be ignored. I presumed that to be obvious. This is also preparing a more rounded student for when the time comes to sit the leaving cert (i.e when they sit the core curriculum that universities outside Ireland evaluate).

parker kent

FlashD wrote: »

A lot of good Irish did me, I never used the language since I left school all of 18 years ago, a waste of time and energy on my part and a waste of taxpayers money, I would have been better off learning Chinese or German.

This is also wrong IMO. Learning a language, any language, improves your mental capacities. It is like Maths, the long-term benefits are learning how to problem solve, as opposed to learning the actual material itself. It's about creating a way of thinking.

mackg

phasers wrote: »

unless the leaving cert is similarly altered then this is not only pointless, but could be detrimental to some students. Readjusting after 4th year is hard for some, imagine never having any structure in the first place?

And participating in a book club? Is that real? That sounds like LCA 'getting marks for attendance' crap.

40% CA means there is still exams worth 60% at the end, so they are still very important just not the do or die system we have now. It's not like kids will go into leaving cert having never seen an exam. Also considering what's at stake in the LC introducing an untested system at that level could be disastrous for the students who have to deal with it, better to see how it goes at JC level IMO before introducing it at LC level.

FlashD

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Universities in the UK, especially the redbricks, already take a dim view on students who take so-called 'soft subjects' to A-level. Most prefer an emphasis on the established core-curriculum.

I see your point but what good is something like physics to a student who wants to go on to do music and drama...in fairness like!

Students who choose music, drama & art are not headed towards redbricks as you call them, they already have their mind made up.

the_syco

Final exams will no longer be the main focus as 40% of all subject marks will be awarded on the basis of continuous assessment over two years.

Bullsh|t. Fee paying schools can give the full 40% or risk loosing business, me thinks. Lots of other bullsh|t regarding grades, etc. Oh, and can we make up a list of teachers to be culled. There's a few f**ktard teachers who deserve to be culled as they're so useless.

=-=

<Snip>

smash

FlashD wrote: »

Some students are right lazy sods, they need a bit of incentive to get up off their arses

Is good education = good career not incentive enough?

parker kent

smash wrote: »

Is good education = good career not incentive enough?

Anybody that has ever worked in education would be able to tell you that is a no. There are dozens of reasons why the current system fails so many students and why students disengage (obviously some just are lazy).

The JCSP scheme has worked well in disadvantaged schools and is not too dissimilar from the new proposals.

FlashD

smash wrote: »

Is good education = good career not incentive enough?

Yes you're right, I see your point but unfortunately students at that age don't see the world like adults see it. They don't see the bigger picture.

Columbia

FlashD wrote: »

There is no next about it, we should be doing it already.

Different students are interested in different things. I think it's important that schools focus on the students interests rather than beating something like Irish into them.

A lot of good Irish did me, I never used the language since I left school all of 18 years ago, a waste of time and energy on my part and a waste of taxpayers money, I would have been better off learning Chinese or German.

Yes, we should be doing it already. The Irish are supposed to be a "sporting people" but there is nothing at all done to support it in school. If students had dedicated time to work on their chosen sport (not in the evenings when they're wrecked from school, as I had to do), as well as receive education in injury prevention and such things, Ireland would see results on the world stage. Ain't gonna happen though, in my opinion.

smash wrote: »

Is good education = good career not incentive enough?

No, not when you're 12 or 13 years old.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

smash wrote: »

Is good education = good career not incentive enough?

Were you one of my teachers when I did the Junior Cert?

Orando Broom

The Wesley disco will lose big time. Expect strong lobbying.

FlashD

Columbia wrote: »

Yes, we should be doing it already. The Irish are supposed to be a "sporting people" but there is nothing at all done to support it in school. If students had dedicated time to work on their chosen sport (not in the evenings when they're wrecked from school, as I had to do), as well as receive education in injury prevention and such things, Ireland would see results on the world stage. Ain't gonna happen though, in my opinion.
.

Thing is if you took the GAA out of Ireland, there would be not a whole lot of organised sport for kids to play especially in rural areas.

Goes to show how much emphasis there is on sport from the goverment. I remember at school only ever doing one PE class per week.

spurious

All it is is proper implementation of what the JC was supposed to be in 1992 - twenty wasted years.

Mardy Bum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

This is a wonderful speech about the benefits of fostering a wider degree of intelligence instead of the usual rote learning.

This new JC should go some way towards helping those that are intelligent in other ways instead of the traditionally accepted views.

rainbowtrout

Here's the document outlining the new Junior Cert:

http://ncca.ie/framework/doc/NCCA-Junior-Cycle.pdf

For the tl;dr brigade here are the highlights

Regular JC subjects will be 40% continuous assessment and 60% exam. Assessment to be carried out by teachers and externally moderated by SEC.

Students must complete one of the following combinations for Junior Cert -

• 8 regular subjects
• 7 regular subjects and two short courses
• 6 regular subjects and four short courses

Students must do English, Irish and Maths, each of which will be examined at two levels and all other subjects at common level.

Short courses can be from a list which has been prepared by Dept of Ed or school can devise their own short course. Short courses are 100% Portfolio and assessed by the school, no external moderation.


The potential short course list in this document lists:

• Cultural studies
• Sustainable living and resource management
• Debating/public speaking
• Write a book
• Development Education
• Leadership
• Book club
• Making choices
• Personal finance
• School musical/drama performance
• Coaching in the community
• Being innovative -Product design
• Web design
• Creating an e-portfolio
• Chinese language and culture
• Mathematics for living and work

Short courses must be allocated 100 hours over three years (so roughly an hour a week), so it would suggest that some of this time would be timetabled and structured rather than all after school stuff. It's not compulsory either and the introverted student can ignore the short courses if they choose - depending on the set up in their school of course.

challengemaster

parker kent wrote: »

I highly doubt they will force kids to sing or dance. They are just 2 examples given in the report. They also mention book clubs and debating. There is nothing wrong with being introverted, but this type of thing will boost an awful lot of kids. Plus it will give them a much more rounded education. JC results mean nothing in the long-term. Producing better educated people is more important than teaching someone how to regurgitate a text-book.

Let me use myself as an example of how this will be shíte unless they manage to cater for everyone

I can't sing, lack the timing/rhythm to dance. I don't like reading books, and would hate debating. I also hate the sports 98% of people think are the only ones that exist; soccer, rugby, GAA, and I could just about tolerate basketball.

So what was I interested in then? Techie stuff. I could spend hours in front of a computer reading things that interest me, I was building pcs since 14/15, IMO competitive online gaming requires more skill and thinking than football. Non-standard sports like MA, Archery... So what exactly would I have gotten these CA marks for under this system?