Heineken Cup - General Discussion Thread

pajunior

RuggieBear wrote: »

munster wasps semi was an unbelievable game

It was an exceptional game of rugby but I don't think it defined Munsters history of the heineken cup.

CatFromHue

The Leicester team that won the HEC in 2000/01 was:
* denotes capped internationally
bold denotes Lions tourist

Stimpson*, Murphy*, Lloyd*, Howard*, Stanley*, Goode*, Healey*,
Rowantree*, Dorian West*, Darren Garforth*, Martin Johnson*, Ben Kay*, Corry*, Back*, Will Johnson.

14 capped internationally
8 Lions

The Leicester team that won the HEC in 01/02 was:
Stimpson*; Murphy*, Ollie Smith*, Kafer*, Tuilagi*; Healey*, Hamilton;
Rowantree*, Dorian West*, Darren Garforth*, Martin Johnson*, Ben Kay*, Moody*, Corry*, Back*

14 capped internationally
10 Lions

The Wasps team that won the HEC in 03/04 was:
Van Gisbergan*, Lewsey*, Fraser Waters*, Stuart Abbott*, Tom Voyce*, Alex King*, Howley*
Tim Payne*, Leota*, Will Green*, Simon Shaw*, Birkett, Worsley*, Volley, Dallaglio*

13 capped internationally
5 Lions

The Wasps team that won the HEC in 06/07 was:
Cipriani*, Sackey*, Waters*, Lewsey*, Voyce*, King*, Reddan*
Tom French, Ibanez*, Vickery*, Shaw*, Palmer*, Worsley*, Tom Rees*, Dallaglio*

14 capped internationally
5 Lions

The Saracens team that played Clermont in the HEC QF this season was:
Alex Goode, Strettle*, Farrell*, Barritt*, Wyles*, Hodgson* , Wigglesworth*
Gill*, Brits*, Stevens*, Borthwick*, Botha*, Melck, Fraser, Joubert.

11 capped internationally
1 Lion
(Did Matt Stevens tour on the Lions?)

The Harlequins team that played Connacht in the last pool game of the HEC and so qualified for the Amlin was:
Brown*, Monye*, Hopper, Turner Hall, Smith, Evans*, Care*
Marler, Brooker, Johnston*, Cinalli*, Robson, Fa'asavalu*, Robshaw*, Easter*.

9 capped internationally
1 Lion

Leinsters starting 15 had 14 capped players, 4 Lions, and a 59 times capped All Black. Ulster had 13 capped players, 1 Lion, 4 players with a combined total of 132 Springbok Caps, and a 36 times capped All Black.

Leinster's starting 15 last year had 14 capped players and 6 Lions tourists.

So on average the English teams that won the HEC had 13.75 international capped players and 7 Lions. The English and Leinster teams that won the HEC had on average 13.8 capped players and 6.3 Lions players. Saracens and Quins are well below this.

While I do think the English players have to play more games in the season than the Rabo teams as you can see from above they just don't have the quality of the previous English teams that won it and of the current Champions.

Declan Kidney even made comments on it today at his squad announcement that no one bats an eyelid when other nations have two teams in the European Cup final.

you're confusing cause and effect.

The only way that those statistics could be deemed significant is if you were to control for players who achieved International Recognition before they played for the respective club team.

Most if not all the caps earned by players on those teams were as a result of playing well for those teams. A team that contains an overwhelming number of players from one country, that wins consistently, would of course turn out internationals.

A much more interesting statistic would be to look at the amount of international players developed by each team.

Like I said, the cause of the international recognition is the development and progress at the team, the effect of that is the caps.

Profiler

davidpfitz wrote: »

<pedant mode on>

Ulster have never won the Heineken Cup. They won the ERC championship in '99, but Heineken did not have any part of it that year as the English teams boycotted it, they decided not to sponsor it.

<pedant mode off>

Ulster have won the premier European club trophy. Just because it's sponsored by a well know Dutch beer at the moment is no reason to devalue the win.

Who knows it could become the Coca Cola/Ryanair/Harvey Norman/Jiffy Big Black Plastic Bag Cup in the coming years, that's all to do with who pays the most for naming rights, that's not pedantic it a poor semantics.

If you check the ERC website you will see that they list Ulster as a previous winners

"The Heineken Cup 1999 winners have just enjoyed a weekend off after narrowly missing out on the PRO12 play-offs...."

Moreover no English clubs is not Ulster's fault, they can only beat the team opposite them on match day.

Ulster still beat Toulouse in the QF, Stade Francis in the SF...

I don't believe you can devalue Ulsters win just because the English teams threw the toys out the pram and refused come play with the big boys.

CatFromHue

Deleted User wrote: »

you're confusing cause and effect.

The only way that those statistics could be deemed significant is if you were to control for players who achieved International Recognition before they played for the respective club team.

Most if not all the caps earned by players on those teams were as a result of playing well for those teams. A team that contains an overwhelming number of players from one country, that wins consistently, would of course turn out internationals.

A much more interesting statistic would be to look at the amount of international players developed by each team.

Like I said, the cause of the international recognition is the development and progress at the team, the effect of that is the caps.

Yeah I know what you mean but I don't have the time or patience to do that :pac:

My post was I suppose anecdotal but just looking at those team sheets and they just oozed quality, Leicester in particular, which the current English teams don't.

I also liked looking at the previous Lions tourists in each team. Considering if you go on a Lions tour you are more or likely an above average international player which is a good sign of quality.

Leicester in 00/01 had 5
Leicester in 01/02 had 6
Wasps in 03/04 had 3
Wasps in 06/07 had 4
Leinster in 10/11 had 6
Leinster in 11/12 had 4

Even Northampton that beat Munster in 1999/2000 had 4 players who had been selected on the 97 Lions. Though Nick Beal and Matt Dawson didn't play against Munster and Paul Grayson pulled out of the 97 tour through injury I think.

Actually now that I think about it Munster in 06 and 08 had 5 previous Lions tourists in POC, DOC, ROG, and Hayes all who went on the 05 tour and Wallace who went on the 01 tour.

totallegend

@catfromhue, you've robbed Tim Payne of his achievement of being a Lion and I demand you acknowledge this! Fair play to you, some interesting stats.

totallegend

Just FYI, the seedings for next year as I have them figured:

Pool one: Leinster, Toulouse, Munster, Biarritz, Cardiff, Northampton

Pool two: Leicester, Clermont, Ulster, Toulon, Edinburgh, Harlequins

Pool three: Ospreys, Glasgow, Saracens, Scarlets, Connacht, Castres

Pool four: Racing, Montpellier, Exeter, Treviso, unknown Italian team, Sale

That's all my own work so apologies if errors.


Reckon the plum draw for Leinster/Munster is Edinburgh, Castres and Sale/Exeter. For Ulster, it would be Cardiff, Castres and Sale/Exeter. For Connacht; Cardiff, Quins and Racing.
(Keep in mind every group has to have one English and one French team)

tolosenc

Biarritz will get Edinburgh, Connacht and Exeter.

Racing, Ospreys and Quins would be a horrendous group.

thomond2006

Fingers crossed Munster get Toulon, would love to take a trip back to Mayol again!

In terms of good/bad groups, with one English and one French team having to be there:

Easier group: Munster (1), Edinburgh (2), Castres (3), Sale (4) (same as totallegend)

Toughest group: Munster (1), Clermont (2), Ospreys (3), Exeter (4)

From a neutral perspective, a group of Leinster, Clermont, Ospreys and Exeter would be good to watch. Exeter play some decent rugby without having any star names.

Ulster may have it easier since they are second tiers, except if they draw Toulouse (25% chance of it happening.) There's a lot of good second tier teams.

GerM

totallegend wrote: »

@catfromhue, you've robbed Tim Payne of his achievement of being a Lion and I demand you acknowledge this! Fair play to you, some interesting stats.

Dorian West and Matt Stevens too. Interesting post, alright.

ray jay

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ulster may have it easier since they are second tiers, except if they draw Toulouse (25% chance of it happening.) There's a lot of good second tier teams.

Yeah, the second tier is practically as good as the first. There are some seriously mean possible combinations.

Tox56

From a Leinster perspective, playing Quins would be a great game to watch, would love to have them. Preferably if they are English Champions, and Sky will be creaming themselves about how Quins have their "target set on Europe". A 55-35 win for Leinster would do nicely.

Also ridiculous Clermont are in the 2nd tier, they have to be at least 2nd favourite to win next year.

durkadurka

When's the draw?

danthefan

durkadurka wrote: »

When's the draw?

Normally well into the summer, wouldn't expect it for a month or so at least.

vienne86

durkadurka wrote: »

When's the draw?

I think last year it was on 7 June.

tolosenc

Out of interest, what members of the winning team get a medal? Is it just the final matchday squad, or is it players who have player more than a certain number of games, or is it something else?

Just wondering as the ERC site doesn't credit Luke with winning this year, even though he played 6 or so games this season.

CIARAN_BOYLE

tolosenc wrote: »

Out of interest, what members of the winning team get a medal? Is it just the final matchday squad, or is it players who have player more than a certain number of games, or is it something else?

Just wondering as the ERC site doesn't credit Luke with winning this year, even though he played 6 or so games this season.

I know Newland got a medal last year even though he had left the club. I'm sure that Luke has a medal. I think you only get one of those marks on the profile for playing in the final.

danthefan

tolosenc wrote: »

Out of interest, what members of the winning team get a medal? Is it just the final matchday squad, or is it players who have player more than a certain number of games, or is it something else?

Just wondering as the ERC site doesn't credit Luke with winning this year, even though he played 6 or so games this season.

It's definitely not just the matchday squad for the final because Boss was up on the podium on Saturday.

CIARAN_BOYLE

danthefan wrote: »

It's definitely not just the matchday squad for the final because Boss was up on the podium on Saturday.

I think he is talking about on the website they put a little medal up on the player profile for finals that they played in. Look Boss only has one from last year.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/players_statistics_archive.php?player=8782&includeref=dynamic

totallegend

tolosenc wrote: »

Out of interest, what members of the winning team get a medal? Is it just the final matchday squad, or is it players who have player more than a certain number of games, or is it something else?

Just wondering as the ERC site doesn't credit Luke with winning this year, even though he played 6 or so games this season.

Remember reading a few weeks ago that Donnacha Ryan has a medal from 2008 despite only one sub appearance in a pool game.

Quint2010

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9298558/English-Premiership-clubs-open-rift-with-Celtic-nations-over-Heineken-Cup-qualification.html

Looks like the present format will finish in 2014...

Tox56

"Premiership Rugby insists its clubs’ relatively poor performances are not the driver for change"

I'm sure..

As Ive said before, it will have little impact on Leinster, and will only affect the Welsh/Scottish clubs who rarely challenge anyway.

Let them have their way, and when the English clubs don't suddenly start enjoying widespread success I will be interested to see how they react.

Podge_irl

I'm utterly and completely opposed to any change in format or qualification that will see Italian teams not represented in the competition. How on earth do they expect the sport to grow there with this kind of attitude. You would think investing in growing rugby in a potentially huge market - which would only serve to increase TV and advertising money - would be a concept they could grasp.

I imagine a compromise will be reached where the top Italian and Scottish teams qualify automatically.

Morf

Podge_irl wrote: »

I imagine a compromise will be reached where the top Italian and Scottish teams qualify automatically.

How will that be a change to the status quo though?

Podge_irl

Morf wrote: »

How will that be a change to the status quo though?

As in one each. There simply has to be representation from all 6 nations imo and I can see the Celts/Italians walking out on it if they don't get that.

Morf

Podge_irl wrote: »

As in one each. There simply has to be representation from all 6 nations imo and I can see the Celts/Italians walking out on it if they don't get that.

Well the Premiership and Top 14 don't have what's best for the game in mind. They have the needs of each individual club.

The Premiership took years to sort a half-arrangement to facilitate the national team. Top 14 teams are still calling the shots in that regard (minimum release from clubs and what happened to Yachvili during the 6 Nations).

Their one-sightedness and greed will ruin the H-Cup in my estimation and follow on to stunt growth in Italy and reduce Scotland's interest even further.

CatFromHue

Reducing the tournament to 20 teams is a bad idea I think especially if it's 5 pools of 4 with three second place teams qualifying.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

Reducing the tournament to 20 teams is a bad idea I think especially if it's 5 pools of 4 with three second place teams qualifying.

Well from what I've heard that article is incorrect in that Premier Rugby aren't pushing for the smaller competition, the Top 14 are and that's one of the things the two differ on, hence no joint proposal.

I'd like to see the following:

7 teams from each league. Top 3 teams from Rabo plus highest finishing from each nation (IE this season would have been Leinster, Ospreys, Munster, Glasgow, Scarlets, Ulster, Treviso). Then whatever you want for France/England plus competition winners and H Cup finalist. If H Cup finalists are already qualified the extra place gets awarded to the league as opposed to the nation, so Cardiff and Edinburgh would have also qualified thanks to Ulster and Leinster.

castie

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well from what I've heard that article is incorrect in that Premier Rugby aren't pushing for the smaller competition, the Top 14 are and that's one of the things the two differ on, hence no joint proposal.

I'd like to see the following:

7 teams from each league. Top 3 teams from Rabo plus highest finishing from each nation (IE this season would have been Leinster, Ospreys, Munster, Glasgow, Scarlets, Ulster, Treviso). Then whatever you want for France/England plus competition winners and H Cup finalist. If H Cup finalists are already qualified the extra place gets awarded to the league as opposed to the nation, so Cardiff and Edinburgh would have also qualified thanks to Ulster and Leinster.

Need to add Amlin winners in as well.

Isnt that 23 though? 3x7 + 2 ?

irishbucsfan

castie wrote: »

Need to add Amlin winners in as well.

Isnt that 23 though? 3x7 + 2 ?

3x7 + H Cup finalists (2) + Amlin winners = 24