Two days to giving away €718 million!

Freddie59

tayto lover wrote: »

yes indeed and when in opposition Noonan called their decision "insane". Now he's doing what he accused them of. Madness that's what it is.

Just proves that IMF and their sidekicks are running the show. Noonan and the boys won't rock their profitable boat while protecting their Civil Servants.

The sooner that Civil Service contracts are ripped up and reset the better. Everything has changed dramatically, except for Civil Servants. They're living in the 60s - in every sense.

Freddie59

tayto lover wrote: »

Freddie,
How are the Public Servants having it easy ? I listened to a nurse crying on the radio the other day while she explained how stressed out they are and unable to cope with the extra work and moratorium on new nurses in place.
Teachers, Gardai and Firemen are all complaining too regarding their work situation. Maybe at the top they have it easy but that's all.

TL - not wanting to offend these hard-working people, but the reality is that Ireland, Inc is bankrupt. If it were a private company it would be liquidated. At the very least there would be mass redundancies. But nooooo - we couldn't have that. Grand to whip the Private sector, but we couldn't be letting Civil Servants go, could we? Or changing their T&Cs......:rolleyes:

tayto lover

Freddie59 wrote: »

TL - not wanting to offend these hard-working people, but the reality is that Ireland, Inc is bankrupt. If it were a private company it would be liquidated. At the very least there would be mass redundancies. But nooooo - we couldn't have that. Grand to whip the Private sector, but we couldn't be letting Civil Servants go, could we? Or changing their T&Cs......:rolleyes:

Public Sector workers are leaving in droves and not being replaced. Plenty about it in the papers.

Freddie59

tayto lover wrote: »

Public Sector workers are leaving in droves and not being replaced. Plenty about it in the papers.

Figures?

psychward

Theres no long term benefit to being a fool. I voted no as theres no moral or legal obligation to pay the money back. If I was Enda and someone like Sarkozy threatened my country at a meeting behind closed doors I'd break the midgets nose. If anyone asked why I'd be honest and tell the world that I was clearing Mafia scum out of the EU.

tayto lover

Freddie59 wrote: »

Figures?

Buy your own papers.
Ha ha but i read that over 2,000 gardai gone in last 2 years. 14 thousand now down to twelve. 800 more to go before end of February in last weeks Indo.
Nurses and teachers leaving on retirement and not being replaced. Not enough nurses to cover wards at night according to Pat Kenny Show last week. I think the Irish Times had an article on P.S. retirements a few weeks ago.

K-9

Freddie59 wrote: »

Figures?

That would be the recruitment embargo.

AS Tayto lover says, Garda numbers are down and other sectors aren't hiring. The pay bill is going down, maybe not to your requirements, but it's a reality that it is.

profitius

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

David McWilliams tries to tap into the Irish mindset to explain why we would rather impoverish ourselves rather than dare piss off the Germans

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2011/11/01/yet-another-golden-opportunity-is-missed

McWilliams is on the ball.

I think Irish people don't ask enough questions. They believe everything they're being told.

sdanseo

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Good stuff. Maybe the Department of Finance can afford to buy themselves a calculator now. Shower of clowns.

Oh they launched an investigation. After 324 committee meetings, 12 all night Dáil sittings and a tribunal lasting a decade, they decided that Michael Noonan's calculator was in need of replacement.

Alas, they did a deal with Apple, who only offer subsided calculators if you sign a 24-month contract.

sensibleken

Scofflaw wrote: »

The 'so what' is that the list was presented as a list of Anglo's senior bondholders - the people/institutions being bailed out under the guarantee and since - and used to support the fictional narrative that the bailout was largely going to German and French banks.

But the list isn't a list of Anglo senior bondholders, but is instead a mix of junior and (presumably) senior put together to add up to approximately the value of the senior bondholdings in Anglo. Bondholders were included as long as they were foreign, and the Irish ones were removed, even if they held exactly the same bonds as others who did appear on the list.

So the list is a fake, made to support a particular fake narrative. As evidence of anything, it's virtually worthless.



Courtesy of sdraob.ei:

http://omg.wthax.org/439195697.jpg

Those are the current bondholders, presumably. Topping the list, and owning nearly half the bonds between them are 2 Italian companies (Arca and Agora), Aviva (!), and 2 UK companies, but it's a very mixed list - LBBW, at number 8, is Irish.

cordially,
Scofflaw

So in that list they are foreign and LBBW is Irish, that doesnt really change the narritive does it. Also where did sdraob.ei get it. if it is genuine then He should probably make it more public than just putting it up on boards as the majority of the media and politicians seem to be under the impression that nobody knows who they currently are.

Scofflaw

sensibleken wrote: »

So in that list they are foreign and LBBW is Irish, that doesnt really change the narritive does it.

Yes, it would - the narrative is that the bondholders are French and German, not Italian, UK and Irish.

sensibleken wrote: »

Also where did sdraob.ei get it. if it is genuine then He should probably make it more public than just putting it up on boards as the majority of the media and politicians seem to be under the impression that nobody knows who they currently are.

You should probably ask him that!

cordially,
Scofflaw

profitius

Scofflaw wrote: »

Yes, it would - the narrative is that the bondholders are French and German, not Italian, UK and Irish.

Bondholders are bondholders. Irish or not they're wealthy people who took a risk, lost but still get rewarded.

Scofflaw

profitius wrote: »

Bondholders are bondholders. Irish or not they're wealthy people who took a risk, lost but still get rewarded.

Again, they're rather more of a mixed bag than that, but I don't think anyone is claiming that they should be paid because they're poor wee widows who'll be reduced to eating from bins if they're not paid.

Or, at least, not since Lenihan claimed it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

HovaBaby

Why can't we stop this?

Kenny said he'd wouldn't pay the bondholders, but he lied. WTH. I can't believe this is going on. The scumbags that paid the banks and bankers themselves not getting punished.

Shower of bastards.

Scofflaw

HovaBaby wrote: »

Why can't we stop this?

Kenny said he'd wouldn't pay the bondholders, but he lied. WTH. I can't believe this is going on. The scumbags that paid the banks and bankers themselves not getting punished.

Shower of bastards.

Actually, Kenny and FG said they would burn senior bondholders if there was a European framework for doing so - in other words, if we could do it under the cover of "everyone else is doing it too":

Fine Gael’s manifesto says the party will force certain classes of bondholders to share in the cost of recapitalisations, including holders of senior debt – but only as part of an agreed EU-wide framework.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4f0d5dd6-390e-11e0-b0f6-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1camnCFPJ

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

Scofflaw wrote: »

Actually, Kenny and FG said they would burn senior bondholders if there was a European framework for doing so - in other words, if we could do it under the cover of "everyone else is doing it too":



http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4f0d5dd6-390e-11e0-b0f6-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1camnCFPJ

cordially,
Scofflaw

Varadkar came out with it and when FF challenged him on it, the real FG policy came out.

SEPT 23 1989

I wonder where the money fight is happening?:(

sensibleken

Scofflaw wrote: »

Yes, it would - the narrative is that the bondholders are French and German, not Italian, UK and Irish.



You should probably ask him that!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Its my reason to disbelieve this one you've presented. The guy you got it from seems to be the only in possesion of it and its a rather sought after thing.

What evedence do you have that that is correct. Since you are criticsing others for accepting the other one on face value

Scofflaw

sensibleken wrote: »

Its my reason to disbelieve this one you've presented. The guy you got it from seems to be the only in possesion of it and its a rather sought after thing.

What evedence do you have that that is correct. Since you are criticsing others for accepting the other one on face value

I don't currently have any evidence either way on it, whereas I have evidence on the other one that it's a crock, at least as a list of Anglo seniors. Possibly the "current" one is simply a better fake, but it seems a fake to no particular purpose, since it doesn't tell any particular story. The Guido Fawkes one was mocked up with an Anglo logo, whereas this one looks like a screenshot of a trading screen.

Also, even if both were true, they wouldn't be directly comparable - the Guido Fawkes one is supposed to have been true a year ago, whereas the other one is supposed to be true nowish, as you can see from the correct name being given (Irish Bank Resolution Corp Ltd). A lot of names are on both lists, and the Guido list contains true names, while not being true in what it's purported to be.

So I don't know that this more recent one is true, but there's nothing particularly unbelievable about it on the face of it. I'm seeing what, if anything, can be done to confirm it.

[EDIT]I believe the source is Declan Ganley, who I think is likely to be honest enough.[/EDIT]

cordially,
Scofflaw

sensibleken

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't currently have any evidence either way on it, whereas I have evidence on the other one that it's a crock, at least as a list of Anglo seniors. Possibly the "current" one is simply a better fake, but it seems a fake to no particular purpose, since it doesn't tell any particular story. The Guido Fawkes one was mocked up with an Anglo logo, whereas this one looks like a screenshot of a trading screen.

Also, even if both were true, they wouldn't be directly comparable - the Guido Fawkes one is supposed to have been true a year ago, whereas the other one is supposed to be true nowish, as you can see from the correct name being given (Irish Bank Resolution Corp Ltd). A lot of names are on both lists, and the Guido list contains true names, while not being true in what it's purported to be.

So I don't know that this more recent one is true, but there's nothing particularly unbelievable about it on the face of it. I'm seeing what, if anything, can be done to confirm it.

[EDIT]I believe the source is Declan Ganley, who I think is likely to be honest enough.[/EDIT]

cordially,
Scofflaw

Declan Ganley. Declan fúcking Ganley is the source and you expect it to be honest.

It could be a list from anywhere. It says nothing, its unverified. Its contradicted by all politicians and media outlets who claim the list is unknown. You have taken it as truthfull because it suits your point of view, something you chastise others for.

K-9

In another bizarre twist, Declan Ganley maybe providing information showing it isn't just the bad, bad French and German bondholders to blame!

Scofflaw

sensibleken wrote: »

Declan Ganley. Declan fúcking Ganley is the source and you expect it to be honest.

I expect him to be honest. He's put his name to it publicly, not anonymously.

sensibleken wrote: »

It could be a list from anywhere. It says nothing, its unverified. Its contradicted by all politicians and media outlets who claim the list is unknown. You have taken it as truthfull because it suits your point of view, something you chastise others for.

No, I've taken it as not yet known to be a fake, because I don't have any evidence that it's a fake, whereas in the case of the first list I do. It exists, it's potentially evidence, it checks out so far.

Even the first list, the Guido Fawkes one, is a list of bondholders, and I imagine from a very similar trading source - what makes that list dishonest is the claim that it's a straight list of Anglo's senior bondholders, which it definitely isn't. No such claim is being made for this list - it's just a list of known holdings, about which there's nothing intrinsically unlikely.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sensibleken

Scofflaw wrote: »

I expect him to be honest. He's put his name to it publicly, not anonymously.



No, I've taken it as not yet known to be a fake, because I don't have any evidence that it's a fake, whereas in the case of the first list I do. It exists, it's potentially evidence, it checks out so far.

Even the first list, the Guido Fawkes one, is a list of bondholders, and I imagine from a very similar trading source - what makes that list dishonest is the claim that it's a straight list of Anglo's senior bondholders, which it definitely isn't. No such claim is being made for this list - it's just a list of known holdings, about which there's nothing intrinsically unlikely.

cordially,
Scofflaw

so when i asked you if you had a list of bonholder and you presented this as it then you werent saying it was a list of bonholders. is that what youre trying to get at.

A google of the list tell me that Ganley put it on twitter (somehow gaining hold of it despite not being anywhere near connected with it) then took it down again fairly swiftly according to the only two places its discussed, politics.ie and the journal. That seems to be the extent of any 'evidence'

The fact that you trust ganley after the crap during lisbon is quite suprissing to be honest. As is that you believe absurd information like this before its been disproved. The burden of proof lies with those who a saying its true.

Scofflaw

sensibleken wrote: »

so when i asked you if you had a list of bonholder and you presented this as it then you werent saying it was a list of bonholders. is that what youre trying to get at.

A google of the list tell me that Ganley put it on twitter (somehow gaining hold of it despite not being anywhere near connected with it) then took it down again fairly swiftly according to the only two places its discussed, politics.ie and the journal. That seems to be the extent of any 'evidence'

The fact that you trust ganley after the crap during lisbon is quite suprissing to be honest. As is that you believe absurd information like this before its been disproved. The burden of proof lies with those who a saying its true.

Sure, I'd accept that. At this point I don't think the list is either true or false, but I don't yet know it to be false - again, unlike the other one. I've only presented it here as being what it is, which is a list sourced by a boards.ie poster, apparently in turn from Declan Ganley.

Intrinsically, there's nothing particularly unreasonable about the list in question. I would be more suspicious of it if it "told a story", but it doesn't - it doesn't tell us who got bailed out, or who the original Anglo bondholders were.

As to Declan Ganley - I think my views on him are reasonably well know, but I've no reason to think that he's personally dishonest, and I can't see anything he might gain from this.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sensibleken

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure, I'd accept that. At this point I don't think the list is either true or false, but I don't yet know it to be false - again, unlike the other one. I've only presented it here as being what it is, which is a list sourced by a boards.ie poster, apparently in turn from Declan Ganley.

Intrinsically, there's nothing particularly unreasonable about the list in question. I would be more suspicious of it if it "told a story", but it doesn't - it doesn't tell us who got bailed out, or who the original Anglo bondholders were.

As to Declan Ganley - I think my views on him are reasonably well know, but I've no reason to think that he's personally dishonest, and I can't see anything he might gain from this.

cordially,
Scofflaw

fair enough. Although personally i just think the publicity whore thought he was out of the limelight for a bit too long. by all accounts he took down the list soon after he put it up

K-9

sensibleken wrote: »

fair enough. Although personally i just think the publicity whore thought he was out of the limelight for a bit too long. by all accounts he took down the list soon after he put it up

Which is odd, maybe not agreeing with the narrative he'd like to portray?

Scofflaw

sensibleken wrote: »

fair enough. Although personally i just think the publicity whore thought he was out of the limelight for a bit too long. by all accounts he took down the list soon after he put it up

Hasn't he been on the gogglebox a fair bit recently? That's a genuine question - I haven't watched any TV since the 1970s.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sensibleken

Scofflaw wrote: »

Hasn't he been on the gogglebox a fair bit recently? That's a genuine question - I haven't watched any TV since the 1970s.

cordially,
Scofflaw

he hosted vincent browne once recently and that was the only one i heard about. apparantly he used it to sound off

Scofflaw

sensibleken wrote: »

he hosted vincent browne once recently and that was the only one i heard about. apparantly he used it to sound off

Thanks - yes, I heard similar. He has a dedicated twitter following, obviously.

Returning to the question of the lists, I should probably clarify that I don't think the first list (the Guido Fawkes one) is completely made up - the companies listed are almost certainly all bondholders, and it's clear that Fawkes had more information than appears on the graphic, sufficiently detailed information to suggest that whatever the government might claim, it's certainly possible to trace the bondholders if you know how to go about it and have the appropriate trading account access. No, the problem with the list is that it's obviously edited to tell a particular story, and that it's not a list of those bondholders that weren't burned.

That there's a lot of cross-over between the two lists tends to substantiate the second list, as does the fact that it doesn't tell any particular story. - so I think it's reasonably credible at first sight. Still, we'll see.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Anita M.

I heard that a lot of shares changed hands a few months ago? Those shares sold at 60% of the amount they pay now? Is this true?
Did Enda Kenny buy them???