Two days to giving away €718 million!

Grassroots_FF · 02-11-2011 4:04pm

Biggins wrote: »

...And another 2.5 billion next year don't forget.

Absolutely disgraceful. Protests need to be organised in time for that.

Scofflaw · 02-11-2011 4:05pm

Biggins wrote: »

Labour and FG refuses to name the original bondholders - so someone else has to!

Here you go: http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/8330/aibondholders.gif

(Care of here: http://lnw.me/BzOW58 - and here: http://lnw.me/xYfGLh)

Note the many German investment businesses/banks!

Note the complete lack of Irish bondholders, even though some of them hold identical junior debt to those listed!

Really, it amazes me how many people apparently swallow this faked-up rubbish uncritically, just because it has an Anglo logo in the background!

amused,
Scofflaw

dlofnep · 02-11-2011 4:06pm

dsmythy wrote: »

Fine Gael AND the Labour Party are the government. People seem to forget......

Oh, no doubt about it - but Fine Gael are the main party in Government - and as such, are calling most of the shots.

Fratton Fred · 02-11-2011 4:16pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Note the complete lack of Irish bondholders, even though some of them hold identical junior debt to those listed!

Really, it amazes me how many people apparently swallow this faked-up rubbish uncritically, just because it has an Anglo logo in the background!

amused,
Scofflaw

The Guy Fawkes list calls it a list of "Foreign Bondholders" and doesn't actually state when these bonds mature. It could therefore be possible that no one on that list will be getting any money tomorrow.

Scofflaw · 02-11-2011 4:23pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Guy Fawkes list calls it a list of "Foreign Bondholders" and doesn't actually state when these bonds mature. It could therefore be possible that no one on that list will be getting any money tomorrow.

Some of those bonds have certainly already been retired in haircuts. There's a company on the list called Deka Investment - their bond was a subordinate/junior one, and they got 20 cents in the euro in December last year, as did the Wexford Credit Union, who owned exactly the same issue of bond, and who mysteriously don't appear on the list.

Yet people insist on rolling out this guff as if it weren't a politically-motivated fake.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sensibleken · 02-11-2011 4:42pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Note the complete lack of Irish bondholders, even though some of them hold identical junior debt to those listed!

Really, it amazes me how many people apparently swallow this faked-up rubbish uncritically, just because it has an Anglo logo in the background!

amused,
Scofflaw

so what if there are irish bondholders? do you have a list of the bondholders?

Biggins · 02-11-2011 4:54pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Note the complete lack of Irish bondholders, even though some of them hold identical junior debt to those listed!

Really, it amazes me how many people apparently swallow this faked-up rubbish uncritically, just because it has an Anglo logo in the background!

amused,
Scofflaw

Possibly but then if it was faked, Guido Fawkes well known reputation would be ruined in one swoop!
I'm still open minded.

DB10 · 02-11-2011 5:10pm

Anyone who voted Fianna Gael, majority of the country has nobody to blame but themselves. You voted them in. You believed the spin. You were caught hook line and sinker just like you were by Fianna Fail.

This country is filled with moaners who will probably just vote Fianna Fail back in next time anyway. Sure half the country wants Gallagher as president.

Moan and moan and moan, and when the time comes to protest and do something they do nothing.

And when the time comes to vote, they vote for the same old faces.

I'm sure Abramovich is having a good laugh tonight at us, hes in court again soon in another lawsuit, this will go to pay for some of that.

Hal Emmerich · 02-11-2011 5:16pm

DB10 wrote: »

Anyone who voted Fianna Gael, majority of the country has nobody to blame but themselves. You voted them in. You believed the spin. You were caught hook line and sinker just like you were by Fianna Fail.

This country is filled with moaners who will probably just vote Fianna Fail back in next time anyway. Sure half the country wants Gallagher as president.

Moan and moan and moan, and when the time comes to protest and do something they do nothing.

And when the time comes to vote, they vote for the same old faces.

I'm sure Abramovich is having a good laugh tonight at us, hes in court again soon in another lawsuit, this will go to pay for some of that.

+1

It's nearly pointless even talking about it, I've watched the odd ep of "The Frontline" and sometimes something would come out and I'd be like "Jasus, there will be war tommorow over that", come tommorow and their wouldn't be a word about it.

It's all pointless, lock this Thread and get rid of Primetime and the like because nothing ever comes from them.

Shock and Horror for a half hour.....Moving on, same old same old.

Scofflaw · 02-11-2011 5:17pm

Biggins wrote: »

Possibly but then if it was faked, Guido Fawkes well known reputation would be ruined in one swoop!
I'm still open minded.

The evidence that it isn't a list of senior Anglo bondholders is there on Fawke's site, and is given away by Fawkes himself. Most people seem to manage to ignore it successfully though.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw · 02-11-2011 7:06pm

sensibleken wrote: »

so what if there are irish bondholders?

The 'so what' is that the list was presented as a list of Anglo's senior bondholders - the people/institutions being bailed out under the guarantee and since - and used to support the fictional narrative that the bailout was largely going to German and French banks.

But the list isn't a list of Anglo senior bondholders, but is instead a mix of junior and (presumably) senior put together to add up to approximately the value of the senior bondholdings in Anglo. Bondholders were included as long as they were foreign, and the Irish ones were removed, even if they held exactly the same bonds as others who did appear on the list.

So the list is a fake, made to support a particular fake narrative. As evidence of anything, it's virtually worthless.

do you have a list of the bondholders?

Courtesy of sdraob.ei:

http://omg.wthax.org/439195697.jpg

Those are the current bondholders, presumably. Topping the list, and owning nearly half the bonds between them are 2 Italian companies (Arca and Agora), Aviva (!), and 2 UK companies, but it's a very mixed list - LBBW, at number 8, is Irish.

cordially,
Scofflaw

wonderfulname · 02-11-2011 7:51pm

DB10 wrote: »

Anyone who voted Fianna Gael, majority of the country has nobody to blame but themselves. You voted them in. You believed the spin. You were caught hook line and sinker just like you were by Fianna Fail.

This country is filled with moaners who will probably just vote Fianna Fail back in next time anyway. Sure half the country wants Gallagher as president.

Moan and moan and moan, and when the time comes to protest and do something they do nothing.

And when the time comes to vote, they vote for the same old faces.

I'm sure Abramovich is having a good laugh tonight at us, hes in court again soon in another lawsuit, this will go to pay for some of that.

This annoys the crap out of me, making claims such as these suggests you yourself are buying the exact same spin from a different political party/interest group than those mentioned. Nobody will do any different, regardless of the economic facts, politically the easiest option is to follow the path already laid out.

Oh, and I love the irony in writing about protests and moaning about moaners

Grassroots_FF · 02-11-2011 7:53pm

Scofflaw once again is trying to claim that if these failed investors aren't paid off with public money that your Granny's post office savings account will dissappear. I've never seen such a deceitful poster.

Grassroots_FF · 02-11-2011 7:55pm

DB10 wrote: »

Anyone who voted Fianna Gael, majority of the country has nobody to blame but themselves. You voted them in. You believed the spin. You were caught hook line and sinker just like you were by Fianna Fail.

This country is filled with moaners who will probably just vote Fianna Fail back in next time anyway. Sure half the country wants Gallagher as president.

Moan and moan and moan, and when the time comes to protest and do something they do nothing.

And when the time comes to vote, they vote for the same old faces.

I'm sure Abramovich is having a good laugh tonight at us, hes in court again soon in another lawsuit, this will go to pay for some of that.

Maybe but let's not forget that people voted for Fine Gael based on lies they were sold. Who can forget Varadkar swearing that banks wouldn't get a penny until bondholders had taken losses. But yes people were stupid to believe FG. Fine Gael's track record has always been one of siding with the rich against the low and middle income people.

Grassroots_FF · 02-11-2011 8:10pm

David McWilliams tries to tap into the Irish mindset to explain why we would rather impoverish ourselves rather than dare piss off the Germans

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2011/11/01/yet-another-golden-opportunity-is-missed

Scofflaw · 02-11-2011 8:10pm

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Scofflaw once again is trying to claim that if these failed investors aren't paid off with public money that your Granny's post office savings account will dissappear. I've never seen such a deceitful poster.

I haven't in fact claimed anything at all about whether they should be paid, and definitely haven't mentioned anybody's Granny. I've only pointed out some facts about the claims made for a certain supposed list of senior bondholders.

amused,
Scofflaw

sdanseo · 02-11-2011 8:13pm

Ah sure we're up €3600 million after a "counting error". €750m is mere pocket change.

Warper · 02-11-2011 8:13pm

Lets have a referendum - oh no better not, as we are after all stupid like the Govt, IMF, EU who couldnt even spot a black hole 3.6 billion overstated on a frigging Balance Sheet. Nice, now sleep everyone

Grassroots_FF · 02-11-2011 8:14pm

sdeire wrote: »

Ah sure we're up €3600 million after a "counting error". €750m is mere pocket change.

Good stuff. Maybe the Department of Finance can afford to buy themselves a calculator now. Shower of clowns.

MungBean · 02-11-2011 8:20pm

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

David McWilliams tries to tap into the Irish mindset to explain why we would rather impoverish ourselves rather than dare piss off the Germans

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2011/11/01/yet-another-golden-opportunity-is-missed

Not the best of articles from McWilliams. Tad simplistic to just say its an Irish mindset and the government missed another opportunity. Nothing in that article that cant be found on any blog with any average Joe giving his two cents on the situation.

Grassroots_FF · 02-11-2011 8:21pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

I haven't in fact claimed anything at all about whether they should be paid, and definitely haven't mentioned anybody's Granny. I've only pointed out some facts about the claims made for a certain supposed list of senior bondholders.

amused,
Scofflaw

Oh yes you're only helping trying to give us "information". Your not defending this bondholder bailout whatsover!!

You've already tried to scaremonger people by talking about credit unions on this thread. You've also previously tried to claim that desposits will dissappear if bondholders aren't bailed out. The fact is all banks deposits were already guaranteed up to the value of €100,000 by the state before this Bank Guarantee Scheme fiasco. You are not sticking up for small Irish depositors as you pretend but rather looking out some of the richest investors in the world. People like you would rather shut down every school in Ireland than tell some millionaire German corporate type he may have to lose 10% of pension.

Scofflaw · 02-11-2011 8:26pm

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Oh yes you're only helping trying to give us "information". Your not defending this bondholder bailout whatsover!!

You've already tried to scaremonger people by talking about credit unions on this thread. You've also previously tried to claim that desposits will dissappear if bondholders aren't bailed out. The fact is all banks deposits were already guaranteed up to the value of €100,000 by the state before this Bank Guarantee Scheme fiasco. You are not sticking up for small Irish depositors as you pretend but rather looking out some of the richest investors in the world. People like you would rather shut down every school in Ireland than tell some millionaire German corporate type he may have to lose 10% of pension.

Ah - I see the problem. Being an FFer, you need to pretend that the only reason we got a bailout was because the evil Germans forced us into it to save their banks, and not because your lovely party had broken the economy - or perhaps because you just prefer blaming things on foreigners. I can't really tell and really don't care.

Unfortunately, you haven't got a dime's worth of facts to back the story up, only a few fakes and a lot of histrionics - and I admit I've often wondered if it was FF who handed Guido Fawkes his little fake.

As for the Wexford Credit Union, that's simply a fact. Not, I can see, that that will make any difference to you, because it's clearly an inconvenient fact. If you're spouting the FF line - and that has, hilariously, swung round to whining about paying the bondholders (which would be rage-inducing were it not so funny) - perhaps I should point out that St Lenny himself back in the day was perfectly happy to claim the Credit Unions as a reason to pay bonds. I, on the other hand, haven't claimed that - I've just pointed out that it happened.

amused,
Scofflaw

MungBean · 02-11-2011 8:28pm

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Oh yes you're only helping trying to give us "information". Your not defending this bondholder bailout whatsover!!

You've already tried to scaremonger people by talking about credit unions on this thread. You've also previously tried to claim that desposits will dissappear if bondholders aren't bailed out. The fact is all banks deposits were already guaranteed up to the value of €100,000 by the state before this Bank Guarantee Scheme fiasco. You are not sticking up for small Irish depositors as you pretend but rather looking out some of the richest investors in the world. People like you would rather shut down every school in Ireland than tell some millionaire German corporate type he may have to lose 10% of pension.

Come off it, he wasnt scaremongering he was stating facts while arguing against the validity of the list.

You obviously have a personal problem with Scofflaw and your doing all in your power to take a few swings at him regardless of what he has to say. Give it a rest ffs.

Biggins · 02-11-2011 8:29pm

Warper wrote: »

Lets have a referendum...

What would be the point?
They would just make us vote again if we don't vote their way the first time!

MungBean · 02-11-2011 8:37pm

Biggins wrote: »

What would be the point?
They would just make us vote again if we don't vote their way the first time!

We cant even seem to have a debate on the matter let alone a chance of a referendum to be thrown back at us until we get it right.

Even another general election wouldnt change anything. We are stuck paying these bonds back because thats what the government want to do. The opposition is powerless and so are we. I expected FG to continue the same policies as they pretty much said they would pre election. Apart from a few obscure statements about sharing the pain.

Its Labour who have let us down.

histories · 02-11-2011 9:03pm

Feels a bit like using a plaster to try and stop an arterial bleed. They said on tv3 news that EU is now looking to the likes of Asia for money. How long can we continue to throw money down the rabbit hole? Will it not eventually come down like the proverbial house of cards anyway? Maybe it would be best to let it fall and go from there rather than wasting more and more money. As for the unguaranteed bonds, you gambled the gamble didn't pay off, tough sh*t, no?

On a separate note: FF screwed us, FG and Labour are screwing us, who the hell will be left when the next election rolls round? There really is no one to inspire confidence.

tayto lover · 02-11-2011 9:17pm

histories wrote: »

Feels a bit like using a plaster to try and stop an arterial bleed. They said on tv3 news that EU is now looking to the likes of Asia for money. How long can we continue to throw money down the rabbit hole? Will it not eventually come down like the proverbial house of cards anyway? Maybe it would be best to let it fall and go from there rather than wasting more and more money. As for the unguaranteed bonds, you gambled the gamble didn't pay off, tough sh*t, no?

On a separate note: FF screwed us, FG and Labour are screwing us, who the hell will be left when the next election rolls round? There really is no one to inspire confidence.

This country badly needs a revolution as the interests of the ordinary citizen are being eroded to ensure that the rich have it easy. Simple as.

Freddie59 · 02-11-2011 9:31pm

Biggins wrote: »

We are just two days away before we give away €718 million (see here).

Now I know there are supposed good reasons for doing this but somehow it don't sit right with me.
Honestly, would anyone be willing to say why we should be going ahead with this massive payout?
It just seems madness at first and second glance - is there someone that can say there is justifiable reason/benefit to our nation to be doing this in two days?

I'm still not convinced they are doing the right thing!

I'd agree with you 100% Biggins. But, unfortunately, probably the bondholders they are giving the 700m to tomorrow will be the ones loaning them the weekly 400m next week.

How much longer can we - as a nation - continues to borrow 100 euro for every man, woman, and child every week. It's nuts. Our Enda said today he didn't want to see cvivil servants made redundant, like in Greece. So we keep borrowing 400m a week to keep them in the style (and wages) to which they're accustomed (and feel they are entitled to).

While hundreds of thousands in the private sector have been made redundant in the meantime. What a wonderful country and Government.:rolleyes:

Freddie59 · 02-11-2011 9:32pm

tayto lover wrote: »

This country badly needs a revolution as the interests of the ordinary citizen are being eroded to ensure that the rich politicians and civil servants/public sector workers have it easy. Simple as.

FYP.:rolleyes::)

tayto lover · 02-11-2011 9:37pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

FYP.:rolleyes::)

Freddie,
How are the Public Servants having it easy ? I listened to a nurse crying on the radio the other day while she explained how stressed out they are and unable to cope with the extra work and moratorium on new nurses in place.
Teachers, Gardai and Firemen are all complaining too regarding their work situation. Maybe at the top they have it easy but that's all.

Two days to giving away €718 million!

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