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Two days to giving away €718 million!

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    #92
    Grassroots_FF
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Grassroots_FF


    MungBean wrote: »
    The 700 million is a matured senior bond being paid back with the proceeds of the sale of Anglos American assets, thats not fiction thats whats happening. This is what would have happened form the start, if it was allowed to go to the wall and sell its assets to cover its debts instead of the state footing the bill with a blank cheque.

    Theres no way possible anyone could actually read what I wrote and think I was calling Anglo a viable business. My point is that although I think the bondholders should be burnt in favour of recouping the money for the taxpayer the bank is off the states tit and operating as a bank should be operating. Paying its own debts with its own money.

    Too little too late I know but its not a case of the government being incompetent and handing away money to keep the rich rich. Its part of the plan to get us out of this hole whether right or wrong its a plan to set us back on the right path and not a plot to fleece us of more money.

    Complete rubbish. Anglo owes the Irish people £30billion yet you claim they have assets to sell to pay the investors who failed in their investments. To say it is paying its own debts with its own money is nonsense.

    Just say you have €1 and owe €20. This €20 debt consists of 20 different €1 loans from different people. I then give you €19 so you can cover your debts because I'm a complete sucker. Then you pay back the 20 different €1 debts, claiming each time that debt was paid from your original €1.


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    #93
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Grassroots_FF wrote: »
    Complete rubbish. Anglo owes the Irish people £30billion yet you claim they have assets to sell to pay the investors who failed in their investments. To say it is paying its own debts with its own money is nonsense.

    Just say you have €1 and owe €20. This €20 debt consists of 20 different €1 debts to different people. I then give you €19 so you can cover your debts because I'm a complete sucker. Then you pay back the 20 different €1 debts, claiming each time that debt was paid from your original €1. In your mind you are paying your own debts with your own money.

    Bonds are not investments, they are loans and rank the same as deposits. What the state did was invest. We bought the bank and paid off its debts (bonds) with taxpayer money. The state didnt lend money to Anglo it paid its debts in return for equity, Anglo doesnt owe the state anything technically speaking.

    For your scenario to be equivalent to Anglo you would give me 19 to cover my debts not as a loan but simply to stop me going broke. You would receive equity in my business and become a shareholder but I would never owe you anything. You just bought into my problem. Then another 5 people show up looking for their 1 euro back, you pay off 3 of them out of your pocket. I still owe you nothing as your only paying the debt you incurred when you bought out my business. If I sell my hat to pay the other 2 euro debt then I'm selling assets from the business to cover it and its not coming directly from you and I'm doing what I would have done if you never showed up.


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    #94
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Vicxas wrote: »
    I love the fact that FF are calling on them to stop, when its them that caused it.... FFS

    yes indeed and when in opposition Noonan called their decision "insane". Now he's doing what he accused them of. Madness that's what it is.


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    #95
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    They apparently will be discussing the matter at great length on RTE Prime Time shortly.
    I'll be watching it to see what they have to say about this and the next 1.5 billion they will be handing over in January.


  • Options
    #96
    cosanostra
    Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭cosanostra


    This all amounts to nothing less than the Irish people being enslaved to keep the rich in fancy cars,yaughts and houses


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    #97
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    cosanostra wrote: »
    This all amounts to nothing less than the Irish people being enslaved to keep the rich in fancy cars,yaughts and houses

    Thats capitalism for ya.


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    #98
    Lord Derpington
    Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭Lord Derpington


    Lord Trollington wrote: »
    Who are the bondholders exactly???

    Here ya go


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    #99
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    greenfly wrote: »
    Here ya go

    Jaysus, the comments on that thing, my head hurts.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #100
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    Thanks very much for this mess Fianna Fail - Independent Healy - Rae, Lowry, Fleming, Sean Gallagher et al.

    FF created this mess and legally tied the country down into it, FG are only walking the plank Fianna Fail laid out for them.

    Every bank should have been left go bankrupt and before you say what about peoples savings, the government didn't care about peoples savings, all they cared about was getting all their crony developers off the hook and lining the pockets of their cronies.

    Shame on the half million wasters who then voted Gallagher last week despite all this.


  • Options
    #101
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    K-9 wrote: »
    Jaysus, the comments on that thing, my head hurts.

    Pity, because there's something very worthwhile buried in them that gives the lie to the whole list. I draw your attention to the following exchange:
    6
    Deka Investment GmbH says:
    October 15, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    We’re on the list?

    News to us.

    12
    Guido Fawkes says:
    October 15, 2010 at 7:49 pm

    You hold USD EQUIV 1.756 Million of the EURO MEDIUM-TERM NOTES 2004-25.6.14 FLOATER COUPON 1.689 TERM 06/25/2014

    Do you want to know what day you bought it?
    17
    Deka Investment GmbH says:
    October 15, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    That’s a pretty **** coupon for junior debt.
    26
    Guido Fawkes says:
    October 15, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    You bought it.
    35
    The Gold's Under the Mattress says:
    October 15, 2010 at 8:13 pm

    Cheers Deka my old mate, I now know where NOT to go if I want any investment advice or financial services.
    woops! says:
    October 16, 2010 at 4:45 am

    deka ****ing decked

    "Junior debt"...this list is supposed to be Anglo's famous senior bondholders, the people they couldn't burn. But, oh dear, look, it contains junior bondholders, who did get burned, so it isn't a list of senior bondholders.

    The debt coupon that brings Deka onto the list is subordinate debt which received an offer of 20 cent in the euro (see here) - not only that, it's exactly the same debt issue as was held by Wexford Credit Union:
    WEXFORD CREDIT Union is unable to pay a dividend to its members this year because it has been forced to write down a €3 million investment in Anglo Irish Bank.

    Manager Ultan Ryan said the credit union owned subordinated Anglo bonds worth €2.99 million, an investment which has now been written down by 80 per cent.

    Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1209/1224285100497.html

    Yet Wexford Credit Union isn't on that list, and Deka is. Why? Because Deka is foreign and Wexford Credit Union isn't - there's no other difference.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, the list is a crock, sold to a gullible public in support of a political narrative.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #102
    Hal Emmerich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭Hal Emmerich


    It's OK, sure didn't we find 3.6 Billion Today!!:rolleyes:

    What Auditor was involved with this?

    Who thinks it's just made up bull to draw attention away from the €718 million?
    Ireland’s finances €3.6bn better than thought – due to accounting error


    IRELAND’S DEBT IS lower than previously thought - because of an accounting error that counted a figure of €3.6 billion twice.
    TV3 News has revealed that a payment between two state agencies – the National Treasury Management Agency (NTMA) and the Housing Finance Agency (HFA) – had been accidentally counted two times. The Department of Finance said that the sum had been counted “as assets in the NTMA accounts and liabilities in the HFA accounts” – creating an accounting error equal to 2.3 per cent of GDP.


    While the figure is equal to the cuts projected in the upcoming budget, a spokesperson for the Department told TheJournal.ie that this would have “no connection” to this year’s budgetary projections because the numbers related to last year’s GNP figures.


    Recently, Finance Minister Michael Noonan announced that €3.6 billion may have to be shaved off the budget in order to reduce the country’s deficit to 8.6 per cent of GDP next year.


    Noonan is expected to brief the government on the developments at the scheduled meeting of the Cabinet this week. The Medium Term Fiscal Statement will be published on Friday and will contain the latest macroeconomic and fiscal forecasts of the Department of Finance, aimed at informing the government in terms of its ongoing budgetary projections.


  • Options
    #103
    profitius
    Registered Users Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    Interesting for Irish viewers too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AHiKNOmWr8


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjIac68z_lw


  • Options
    #104
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Labour and FG refuses to name the original bondholders - so someone else has to!

    Here you go: http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/8330/aibondholders.gif

    (Care of here: http://lnw.me/BzOW58 - and here: http://lnw.me/xYfGLh)
    Between them they hold Anglo-Irish bonds with a face-value of €4,034,756,880. Shouldn’t they take the hit rather than future generations of Irish taxpayers? Capitalism is a system of profit and loss, they took the risk of investing in Anglo-Irish Bank. Is the Irish government under pressure from the European Central Bank in Frankfurt to protect German investors?

    Note the many German investment businesses/banks!


  • Options
    #105
    Grassroots_FF
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Grassroots_FF


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Thanks very much for this mess Fianna Fail - Independent Healy - Rae, Lowry, Fleming, Sean Gallagher et al.

    FF created this mess and legally tied the country down into it, FG are only walking the plank Fianna Fail laid out for them.

    Every bank should have been left go bankrupt and before you say what about peoples savings, the government didn't care about peoples savings, all they cared about was getting all their crony developers off the hook and lining the pockets of their cronies.

    Shame on the half million wasters who then voted Gallagher last week despite all this.

    Even if that true, why did Fine Gael say before the last election that they would impose losses on bondholders before the last election? Were they just lying to win votes?


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    #106
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Biggins wrote: »
    Labour and FG refuses to name the original bondholders - so someone else has to!

    Here you go: http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/8330/aibondholders.gif

    (Care of here: http://lnw.me/BzOW58 - and here: http://lnw.me/xYfGLh)



    Note the many German investment businesses/banks!

    I believe that is who the bond was originally sold to but everyone seems to agree that it was offloaded a long time ago and nobody knows who currently has it.

    so fúck em i say. but then i nor any other irish person runs the country


  • Options
    #107
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    sensibleken wrote: »
    I believe that is who the bond was originally sold to but everyone seems to agree that it was offloaded a long time ago and nobody knows who currently has it.

    so fúck em i say. but then i nor any other irish person runs the country

    O' I agree, a good lot of them will have been sold off.
    This crap that the government is spinning "the buyers of the bonds will not reinvest" is absolute bollox.
    It was even stated on Prime Time last night that many of the original bond holders sold them off some time ago.

    (I also noted on that show that FG and Labour sent no one to speak up for them. A bunch of cowards! Both should be ashamed of themselves.)

    Grassroots_FF wrote: »
    Even if that true, why did Fine Gael say before the last election that they would impose losses on bondholders before the last election? Were they just lying to win votes?

    There's an obvious answer to that question. One, the most of us know.


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    #108
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Biggins wrote: »
    O' I agree, a good lot of them will have been sold off.
    This crap that the government is spinning "the buyers of the bonds" will not reinvest" is absolute bollox.
    It was even stated on Prime Time last night that many of the original bond holders sold them off some time ago.

    (I also noted on that show that FG and Labour sent no one to speak up for them. A bunch of cowards! Both should be ashamed of themselves.)

    yes its absolute bull. they dont see it hitting their pockets so they have absolutely no problem in dumping another 718m on a flimsy hope that maybe once this is all done all the big investors will go to their birthday party.


  • Options
    #109
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    sensibleken wrote: »
    yes its absolute bull. they dont see it hitting their pockets so they have absolutely no problem in dumping another 718m on a flimsy hope that maybe once this is all done all the big investors will go to their birthday party.

    Another 1.25 Billion in January and another Billion soon after that too.


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    #110
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Fine Gael wouldn't even allow the issue to be discussed in the Dáil today. Arrogance of the highest order.


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    #111
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Fine Gael wouldn't even allow the issue to be discussed in the Dáil today. Arrogance of the highest order.

    Yes - disgusting!
    SINN FEIN AND United Left Alliance TDs have walked out of the Dáil in protest at the lack of debate over today’s €700 billion payout to Anglo bondholders.

    The opposition TDs had sought a debate and a vote on the payout to the bondholders, but the government voted not to hold the debate.
    Gerry Adams then spoke in the Dáil chamber to say that Sinn Féin TDs were going to leave as a result of the lack of debate over the issue. ULA TDs followed shortly afterwards.

    Earlier Gerry Adams had repeatedly pressed the Taoiseach during Leaders’ Questions over why the State was proceeding with the controversial payment.

    Enda Kenny had defended today’s €700 billion payout to Anglo Irish Bank bondholders, saying the government plan is ‘based on growth, not on default’.
    Speaking in the Dáil during a rowdy Leaders’ Questions earlier this morning, Kenny blamed the previous government for negotiating the deal.
    He said that he had ‘no intention’ of turning Ireland into ‘some kind of sub-Saharan state based on reckless decisions’ by defaulting on the repayment, saying
    We are not going to scuttle this ship.

    Kenny also said that neither he nor the Government knows the name of the bondholders in the zombie bank.
    The Taoiseach faced fierce criticism from the leaders of the opposition parties who questioned him over the payout.

    Fianna Fáil leader Micheal Martin criticised the government for making pre-election promises to ‘burn’ the bondholders but failing to raise the issue with the European Central Bank during negotiations.
    Kenny blamed Fianna Fáil and the previous government for agreeing to the deal: ”I’d love to stand up here and say to you that it’s not necessary to pay this money. It has not been possible for this government to unravel the agreement made by your government with external parties.”

    Independent TD Shane Ross said that the government had a choice over what to do but that it had ‘decided to go down exactly the same road as was went down by the last government’.
    Ross also raised the issue of bondholders who had bought bonds in the former Anglo Irish Bank at a low price earlier this year, saying that such bondholders have made a profit of nearly 70%.

    Over €700 million ($1 billion) will be paid by the State today to unidentified bondholders on an unsecured five-year Anglo Irish Bank bond.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-walk-out-of-dail-over-lack-of-discussion-on-anglo-bondholders-269672-Nov2011/


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    #112
    Kadongy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Kadongy


    profitius wrote: »
    Interesting for Irish viewers too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AHiKNOmWr8


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjIac68z_lw
    Alex Jones is Alex Jones though. The breaks on his show consist of ads for survivalism gear and other things that suggest tinfoil hats. He strikes me as someone you dont want arguing your case, because his association with it could only undermine you.


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    #113
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    What a disgrace, not even allowed talk about it ffs, I think they were right to walk out.


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    #114
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Biggins wrote: »
    Yes - disgusting!



    http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-walk-out-of-dail-over-lack-of-discussion-on-anglo-bondholders-269672-Nov2011/

    Sorry state of affairs when it cant even be debated. Sickening that the opposition can be completely ignored if the government doesnt want to listen to them. We really do have no hope if our Dail representation is rendered pointless. Strange how low a profile Labour keep these days too considering they are in the thick of it.


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    #115
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Kadongy wrote: »
    Alex Jones is Alex Jones though. The breaks on his show consist of ads for survivalism gear and other things that suggest tinfoil hats. He strikes me as someone you dont want arguing your case, because his association with it could only undermine you.

    Yeah he seems to be involved in every conspiracy going to be honest. Max Keiser is the man you want to argue that kind of angle.


  • Options
    #116
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,511 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    MungBean wrote: »
    Thats capitalism for ya.

    In Capitalism if you lose you lose, you don't get your money back. This is like some sort of socialism for rich losers, it's weird.
    TheZohan wrote: »
    FG are the very same as that last shower of wasters.
    DaDumTish wrote: »
    i fcuking HATE fine gael, and i voted for the cockbags.

    god fcuking damn it
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Fine Gael wouldn't even allow the issue to be discussed in the Dáil today. Arrogance of the highest order.

    Fine Gael AND the Labour Party are the government. People seem to forget......


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    #117
    scatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭scatter


    Lord Trollington wrote: »
    Who are the bondholders exactly???
    Our taoiseach said today he didnt have any names ,wtf...:confused:Take a gamble in a bookie and you either win or lose ,these bonsholders lost their gamble but are still getting reimbursed.Crucify irish taxpayers to pay millionaire risk takers.


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    #118
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    scatter wrote: »
    Our taoiseach said today he didnt have any names ,wtf...:confused:

    If he wanted to know - it would dead easy to find out.
    Hell - all he has to do is read boards.ie and post 104 here!

    Our taoiseach is a lying, two faced asshole!

    It should not go without mention that one of the directors that sat on the Anglo bank committee - is also now sitting on the new banking organisation that is paying out to the bondholders of the previous now defunct bank!
    ...And what political party did he work for? Fine Gael! He was even its head at one stage!

    Non-funny, suspicious goings on indeed!


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    #119
    Dermighty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Dermighty


    Elohim wrote: »
    I thought only amounts in the billions were discussed these days.

    0.718 billion then...


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    #120
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    dsmythy wrote: »
    In Capitalism if you lose you lose, you don't get your money back. This is like some sort of socialism for rich losers, it's weird.

    Fine Gael AND the Labour Party are the government. People seem to forget......

    Yeah its one of those things that show the true nature of capitalism, when the entire system is threatened (as the European banking system was) the true order of priorities becomes apparent and so too does how the entire thing works. The taxpayers exists to provide for the elite and the state is simple a mechanism to allow that to happen.

    Nationalising profit is the work of tyrannical commies.
    Nationalising debt is for the greater good.


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    #121
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Dermighty wrote: »
    0.718 billion then...

    ...And another 2.5 billion next year don't forget.


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