Bodkin / Headford Road roundabout replacement [Lights are on!]

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

I think you're choosing to see it in a light that suits your POV, not looking at the evidence at hand (especially considering the left turn slips avoiding entering the main junction, but not really long enough to avoid it completely).

Right back at ya!

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.galwaycity.ie/GeneralNews/281011_04.pdf
I forgot to include in the OP but there will be changes to the entrance/exit to Dún na Coiribe and to the exit from Dunnes - another set of lights will be added there.

+ changes to the Cycle paths - been converted to on road cycle lanes.
+ the existing pedestrian crossing is to be removed.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

Right back at ya!

Stop doing the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and going "La la la if i do see it and don't hear it its not true la la la"


To turn left or right off the N4 you have to go around a large roughly circular area, which you also have to do when staying on the N4. Behaves like a traffic light controlled RAB to me.

Interestingly the engineers left the SCR section unchanged - must be to let the south sides escape the north side as quickly as possible. So there's absolutely nothing hat can be learned from this junction?

ciotog

antoobrien wrote: »

To turn left or right off the N4 you have to go around a large roughly circular area, which you also have to do when staying on the N4. Behaves like a traffic light controlled RAB to me.

Interestingly the engineers left the SCR section unchanged - must be to let the south sides escape the north side as quickly as possible. So there's absolutely nothing hat can be learned from this junction?

What I took from looking at the images was that lights at all the roundabout arms probably makes the flow far more structured rather than the ad-hoc placement of lights on Bodkin. Does that mean your example is a signal controlled junction or a roundabout though? (said with of a wry smile)

antoobrien

ciotog wrote: »

What I took from looking at the images was that lights at all the roundabout arms probably makes the flow far more structured rather than the ad-hoc placement of lights on Bodkin. Does that mean your example is a signal controlled junction or a roundabout though? (said with of a wry smile)

To me (I've used it from all directions) it behaves like a signal controlled RAB most of the time. the only time it doesn't is if you're going North/South e.g. Islandbridge to Kilmanham (or vice versa).

The HRR is a very similar setup the the junction I'm talking about and the lights aren't ad-hoc, they're just not comprehensive enough. They're placed to allow movement onto the RAB and then keep exits clear. Somebody tried to strike the best of both worlds and failed miserably. That they aren't kept clear is a policing matter (breaking red lights, entering a junction you can't clear etc).


I'm looking at making a submission on this (since I've actually seen these plans early enough, unlike the ones for Briarhill - the notice for which was hidden in the access to the tunnel). The basis of it will be based on the observations below.

IMO there are two big problems - the entrance to GSC off the RAB and the entrances off the headford Rd to Dunnes, Dun na Coirbe, Argos & Lidl, GSC and the retail park.

I don't know what can be done for argos/lidl.

To improve this area for pedestrians:
Close the entrance to GSC & the exit from the retail park
Add a 4th "entrance" light just before the outbound entrance from the HRR and to the entrance itself
Link the to the "entrance" traffic lights to pedestrian signals e.g. no traffic should be allowed off HRR outbound for a period of 45s to allow pedestrians cross from HRR to traffic Island on QB - this should be done for all 4 exits (assuming GSC is closed).
Consolidate the entrances and exits from GSC & the retail park to the existing entrance to the retail park (move the one from GSC) - controlled by lights
Consolidate the entrances & exits to Dunnes & Dun na Coirbe at the site of the current entrance to Dunnes (eliminating the other entrances/exits & the pedestrian crossing) - controlled by lights

To improve this junction for wheeled road users the Gardai should actually start doing their jobs and hand out some on the spot fines for breaking the rules of the roads - all of them, not just motorists but pedestrians & cyclists as well.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

So there's absolutely nothing hat can be learned from this junction?

Sure there is - but your answering a different question here. At the end of the day this junction at Islandbridge /Kilmainham is still not equivalent to the Bodkin Roundabout. You POV says it is - but I'm afraid your still clutching at straws.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

Sure there is - but your answering a different question here. At the end of the day this junction at Islandbridge /Kilmainham is still not equivalent to the Bodkin Roundabout. You POV says it is - but I'm afraid your still clutching at straws.

Seriously, you can't see how it acts just like bodkin when trying to turn right from Islandbridge or the N4 (I can't see how you'd turn right from Kilmainham, then again I don't think I've tried)?

Talk about blinkered.

Robbo

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us all.

antoobrien

Robbo wrote: »

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us all.

?

Robbo

antoobrien wrote: »

?

Given the circular nature of these threads on blasted roundabouts, I wanted to lampshade the most obvious pun with a similar one, which as a bonus is from the Simpsons (when it was still good) which scores double Internet points.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

Seriously, you can't see how it acts just like bodkin when trying to turn right from Islandbridge or the N4 (I can't see how you'd turn right from Kilmainham, then again I don't think I've tried)?

Talk about blinkered.

Ya its a "halfabout" i.e not a full roundabout.
You cannot do a full 360 coming from Hueston.
The example you give you will go through 3 sets of traffic lights to do a 360 coming from Islandbridge.

snubbleste

Noticed that a driver got disqualified and fined for travelling at 119kph in a highly publicised 50kph zone on the Quinncentenary Bridge in the paper today. Defence said it in mitigation that it was 0140 with no traffic about. Judge rightly noted that this stretch has seen a number of road deaths in the past.

antoobrien

snubbleste wrote: »

Noticed that a driver got disqualified and fined for travelling at 119kph in a highly publicised 50kph zone on the Quinncentenary Bridge in the paper today. Defence said it in mitigation that it was 0140 with no traffic about. Judge rightly noted that this stretch has seen a number of road deaths in the past.

In no way am I defending speeding and with all due respect and sympathies to all involved but to my recollection there as been a single fatal crash on the QB in the past 10 years in which two people died (in 2007).

what_traffic

snubbleste wrote: »

Noticed that a driver got disqualified and fined for travelling at 119kph in a highly publicised 50kph zone on the Quinncentenary Bridge in the paper today. Defence said it in mitigation that it was 0140 with no traffic about. Judge rightly noted that this stretch has seen a number of road deaths in the past.

Anybody know what the original design speed of the Quinncentenary Bridge was? Did they always have it at 50kph?

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

Anybody know what the original design speed of the Quinncentenary Bridge was? Did they always have it at 50kph?

It's probably considerably higher, but since the road is inside the city boundary it's a moot point.

I don't have a source but I remember a discussion about the speed limits on the QB and BNT between the Headford & Tuam Roads being too low for the roads in question. IIRC the defense was that because they're within the city the limits have to be 50km/h.

Besides, if you raised the limit on the BNT the Gardaí would run out of funding in the morning.

Sponge Bob

what_traffic wrote: »

Anybody know what the original design speed of the Quinncentenary Bridge was?

Looks like a 60kph to me save near the lights at both ends.

Did they always have it at 50kph?

Yes.

Iwannahurl

snubbleste wrote: »

Noticed that a driver got disqualified and fined for travelling at 119kph in a highly publicised 50kph zone on the Quinncentenary Bridge in the paper today. Defence said it in mitigation that it was 0140 with no traffic about. Judge rightly noted that this stretch has seen a number of road deaths in the past.

I saw that in the Advertiser (delivered by Pony Express this morning).

Caught by AGs with a speed camera in the wee small hours, which is good to see. More please, at all hours including "rush" hour. The speeding on the QB is crazy, as it is on some other roads in the vicinity.

Not safe for vulnerable road users at all: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75141816&postcount=413

Anyway, that's one less twenty-something potential killer on the roads, at least for the next two years.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

It's probably considerably higher, but since the road is inside the city boundary it's a moot point.

I don't have a source but I remember a discussion about the speed limits on the QB and BNT between the Headford & Tuam Roads being too low for the roads in question. IIRC the defense was that because they're within the city the limits have to be 50km/h.

Agree that it has a higher design speed was just wondering did it always have the 50kph signs. I thought the speed limit was set to 50kph because of the footpaths / cyclepaths and the lack of hard shoulders rather than QB and BNT dual carraigeways being within the city boundary?

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

Agree that it has a higher design speed was just wondering did it always have the 50kph signs. I thought the speed limit was set to 50kph because of the footpaths / cyclepaths and the lack of hard shoulders rather than QB and BNT dual carraigeways being within the city boundary?

I think it's more to do with (the city) bye-laws than road standards.

Take a look at the Monivea Rd. Between Ballintemple & Carnmore cross (nice wide road with hard shoulders) the limit is 60km/h, whereas from Carnmore Cross out (far narrower with no hard shoulders) the limit is 80 km/h.

Plus IIRC there are villages on the N61 between Athlone & Roscommon that have 100 km/h limits with footpaths on either side of the road.

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Not safe for vulnerable road users at all: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75141816&postcount=413

I'm struggling to equate the apparent lack of safety of this road with the 13m+ journeys that happen each year apparently without incident.

Does anyone have any (publicly available) figures for accidents on the QB (not on the Headford Rd or Sean Mulvoy).

KevR

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I saw that in the Advertiser (delivered by Pony Express this morning).

Caught by AGs with a speed camera in the wee small hours, which is good to see. More please, at all hours including "rush" hour. The speeding on the QB is crazy, as it is on some other roads in the vicinity.

Not safe for vulnerable road users at all: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75141816&postcount=413

Anyway, that's one less twenty-something potential killer on the roads, at least for the next two years.

You should really have posted the responses to your post in the above thread as they provide some context for the accidents. Your post alone does not provide any context.

For anyone who is interested, you can see the responses here

ciotog

antoobrien wrote: »

I'm struggling to equate the apparent lack of safety of this road with the 13m+ journeys that happen each year apparently without incident.

Does anyone have any (publicly available) figures for accidents on the QB (not on the Headford Rd or Sean Mulvoy).

That's a fair point to make but I'm not sure if it's possible to get hold of those numbers. The Gardai might be able to provide some numbers but they would be recorded incidents only. That's significant because the HEA published a report earlier in the year where they noted the issue of under reporting for road incidents involving cyclists and pedestrians. I believe the level of under reporting for cycling incidents was 10:1. Gardai seem to discourage cyclists from reporting from the experience of two friends in the past 8 weeks (cyclist assaulted and the other knocked of bike in a side swipe).

A second point might be (hard to measure) the issue of perceived safety for pedestrians i.e. they perceive the road to be unsafe and so stop using the area as a pedestrian. I think it's fair to thus argue the safety of the road while there not being record safety incidents. I don't have numbers for that argument so I'm just putting it out there for consideration.

ciotog

antoobrien wrote: »

To me (I've used it from all directions) it behaves like a signal controlled RAB most of the time. the only time it doesn't is if you're going North/South e.g. Islandbridge to Kilmanham (or vice versa).

The HRR is a very similar setup the the junction I'm talking about and the lights aren't ad-hoc, they're just not comprehensive enough. They're placed to allow movement onto the RAB and then keep exits clear. Somebody tried to strike the best of both worlds and failed miserably. That they aren't kept clear is a policing matter (breaking red lights, entering a junction you can't clear etc).

I argue ad-hoc on the basis that they neither control the movement onto the roundabout or the traffic on the roundabout and the mix of both was an ad-hoc arrangement rather than a methodical strategy.

I'm looking at making a submission on this (since I've actually seen these plans early enough, unlike the ones for Briarhill - the notice for which was hidden in the access to the tunnel). The basis of it will be based on the observations below.

IMO there are two big problems - the entrance to GSC off the RAB and the entrances off the headford Rd to Dunnes, Dun na Coirbe, Argos & Lidl, GSC and the retail park.

I don't know what can be done for argos/lidl.

To improve this area for pedestrians:
Close the entrance to GSC & the exit from the retail park
Add a 4th "entrance" light just before the outbound entrance from the HRR and to the entrance itself
Link the to the "entrance" traffic lights to pedestrian signals e.g. no traffic should be allowed off HRR outbound for a period of 45s to allow pedestrians cross from HRR to traffic Island on QB - this should be done for all 4 exits (assuming GSC is closed).
Consolidate the entrances and exits from GSC & the retail park to the existing entrance to the retail park (move the one from GSC) - controlled by lights
Consolidate the entrances & exits to Dunnes & Dun na Coirbe at the site of the current entrance to Dunnes (eliminating the other entrances/exits & the pedestrian crossing) - controlled by lights

Excellent that you're making a submission. It's important that the GTU are sent people's views and reminded that we're entitled to have a say.

To improve this junction for wheeled road users the Gardai should actually start doing their jobs and hand out some on the spot fines for breaking the rules of the roads - all of them, not just motorists but pedestrians & cyclists as well.

Quick point here, I completely agree with you but they can't issue on the spot fines and so red light jumping cyclists for example have to be sent a summons. Given Gardai often can't attend court when a motorist is summonsed I wonder how many show up when it's a cyclist.

antoobrien

ciotog wrote: »

That's a fair point to make but I'm not sure if it's possible to get hold of those numbers. The Gardai might be able to provide some numbers but they would be recorded incidents only. That's significant because the HEA published a report earlier in the year where they noted the issue of under reporting for road incidents involving cyclists and pedestrians. I believe the level of under reporting for cycling incidents was 10:1. Gardai seem to discourage cyclists from reporting from the experience of two friends in the past 8 weeks (cyclist assaulted and the other knocked of bike in a side swipe).

That may be true, but there are often incidents of assault that aren't reported to Gardaí (party not injured etc). As for Gardaí discouraging reporting of such things, not in my experience.

ciotog wrote: »

A second point might be (hard to measure) the issue of perceived safety for pedestrians i.e. they perceive the road to be unsafe and so stop using the area as a pedestrian. I think it's fair to thus argue the safety of the road while there not being record safety incidents. I don't have numbers for that argument so I'm just putting it out there for consideration.

I realise that it's not easy to get those figures, when I posted my original comment I could only find 1 article directly related to a road death on the QB.

My concern is that there appears to be a concerted effort by some posters to make roads & junctions in Galway appear more dangerous than most people (I have talked to) have experienced.

I wonder what cyclists would have to do if they had to cycle past tom hogan motors & the exit from ballybane industrial estate every day like I did for several years.

antoobrien

ciotog wrote: »

I argue ad-hoc on the basis that they neither control the movement onto the roundabout or the traffic on the roundabout and the mix of both was an ad-hoc arrangement rather than a methodical strategy.

Fair enough - I'd use incomplete rather than ad-hoc tho.

ciotog wrote: »

Quick point here, I completely agree with you but they can't issue on the spot fines and so red light jumping cyclists for example have to be sent a summons. Given Gardai often can't attend court when a motorist is summonsed I wonder how many show up when it's a cyclist.

They can issue "on the spot fines" - unmarked cars stopping for speeding is an example of this, they can't collect the fine on the spot. It'd be easy enough to get photographic proof of somebody jumping red lights.

The real logistical problem would come from cyclists/pedestrians not having id with them (they're not required to, unlike motorists). Then you get into the possible situation of giving false names etc.

If attendance of a garda is required then the courts service should work with the gardai to ensure that the scheduling is suitable for the garda who issued the fine. However that's neither here nor there.

ciotog

antoobrien wrote: »

That may be true, but there are often incidents of assault that aren't reported to Gardaí (party not injured etc). As for Gardaí discouraging reporting of such things, not in my experience.

It's mixed, the two incidents I'm referring to involved Mill Street. An incident I had and which involved Moycullen was a model experience of how it should be.

I realise that it's not easy to get those figures, when I posted my original comment I could only find 1 article directly related to a road death on the QB.

My concern is that there appears to be a concerted effort by some posters to make roads & junctions in Galway appear more dangerous than most people (I have talked to) have experienced.

I wonder what cyclists would have to do if they had to cycle past tom hogan motors & the exit from ballybane industrial estate every day like I did for several years.

Definitely don't want to create the impression that the daily commute by bike is a near death experience You do need to have your wits about you (along with a good sense of courtesy and empathy) but I wouldn't be a cycling advocate if I didn't love cycling in Galway.

antoobrien

ciotog wrote: »

Definitely don't want to create the impression that the daily commute by bike is a near death experience You do need to have your wits about you (along with a good sense of courtesy and empathy) but I wouldn't be a cycling advocate if I didn't love cycling in Galway.

both of which are often lacking from all road users.

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

I wonder what cyclists would have to do if they had to cycle past tom hogan motors & the exit from ballybane industrial estate every day like I did for several years.

They would just get on with it, as I did. I went round the back of (the newly resurrected) Tom Hogan Motors, by the way.

Dangerous overtaking, especially on roundabouts, is commonplace.

On one occasion, when attempting to traverse the Morris Roundabout from the Monivea Road (R339) side as I normally did on my commute, I had a serious near miss when the driver of a large jeep tried to overtake me dangerously at speed and cut across me at an exit. It was Race Week so there was a motorbike Garda on duty. I had the reg of the jeep so I reported the incident. His response was unsympathetic and non-committal. After making a few notes, he told me to leave the matter with him, and advised me to cycle on the footpath (advice he also said he gave to his own sons). I never heard from him subsequently.

Iwannahurl

ciotog wrote: »

That's a fair point to make but I'm not sure if it's possible to get hold of those numbers. The Gardai might be able to provide some numbers but they would be recorded incidents only.

That's significant because the HEA published a report earlier in the year where they noted the issue of under reporting for road incidents involving cyclists and pedestrians.

I believe the level of under reporting for cycling incidents was 10:1. Gardai seem to discourage cyclists from reporting from the experience of two friends in the past 8 weeks (cyclist assaulted and the other knocked of bike in a side swipe).

A second point might be (hard to measure) the issue of perceived safety for pedestrians i.e. they perceive the road to be unsafe and so stop using the area as a pedestrian. I think it's fair to thus argue the safety of the road while there not being record safety incidents. I don't have numbers for that argument so I'm just putting it out there for consideration.

I presume that's just a typo or something? There was a HSE report published in May of this year which showed that the level of hospital admissions for road traffic collision injuries was 3.5 times larger overall than what was reported in Garda statistics.

That's injuries serious enough to require hospitalisation, not "incidents" and not just injuries mild enough to be treated without admission to hospital or without recourse to A&E departments.

Significantly, the HSE data show that the number of injured cyclists admitted to hospital is nearly ten times the level suggested by Garda stats.

News story: Many more road injuries than reported, says HSE

HSE report: Admission to Acute Hospitals for Injuries as a Result of Road Traffic Collisions in Ireland 2005–2009






.

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

They would just get on with it, as I did. I went round the back of (the newly resurrected) Tom Hogan Motors, by the way.

The back - no fun - on the DC please were the rest of us play in traffic