Bodkin / Headford Road roundabout replacement [Lights are on!]

GalwayGaillimh

Traffic lights replacing roundabouts in Galway will make peak times a disaster, I can see some people having nervous breakdowns like Michael Douglas in the movie "Falling Down".
http://youtu.be/aNiKARZBq4s

But wait and see, once the lights go in the propoganda machine will be saying they are working great like Moneenageisha lol.

what_traffic

Iwannahurl wrote: »

According to AGS 25% of collisions in Galway City occur on roundabouts.

I'd be prepared to bet that a disproportionate number of those collisions occur on the Bodkin. But that's just a guess, as I have no detailed stats.

Your right re that 25% general stat: Roundabout black spot

Would insurance companies have a better records than the AGS of accident locations?

ciotog

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are you suggesting roundabouts could be suitable then?

Because I see little or no evidence anywhere in Ireland that roundabouts are suitable for active commuters.

Yes, properly sited, with appropriate speed control measures and pedestrian access.

ciotog

Arielle Mango Rip-off wrote: »

But the vast majority of licensed drivers dont have a problem using that roundabout or any other. Thats a myth, which has become quite popular in this forum. Its a minority of drivers who cannot use roundabouts and thats a driver training issue not a design issue or a flaw with roundabouts in general.

I'd disagree that the vast majority don't have a problem - while there's a majority who can correctly use a roundabout they don't have a great lead over those who can't. Everytime I cycle home via the bridge & Headford Road -> Kirwan Roundabout -> N6/Bóthar na dTreabh cycle facility it takes several minutes just to get from the pavement to the traffic island on the Headford Road (Ballinfoyle side) because lots of motorists coming from the other side of the Headford Road are turning from the inside and outside lanes without signalling at any time or signalling incorrectly (signal right when they're turning left). I would be better off going on road through the roundabout to get where I'm going but then I'd be on road on Bóthar na dTreabh when there is a raised cycle facility alongside me. I could see that leading to confrontation as the kerb only drops in a couple of places to allow a cyclist get up to effectively pavement level. I'm also wary of a skid on the kerbstone due to the angle you hit it at.

You have a good point about driver training and I agree with the need for that to improve but that's a longer term exercise and needs to be coupled with better enforcement of road traffic laws against all road users. However, I still maintain that roundabout is a bad design. I probably won't convince you of that point Why I would argue that it's bad design versus driver training in this case is that the required behaviour on that roundabout is quite specific and so you would need prescriptive in training which is even harder to roll out.

Head The Wall

ciotog wrote: »

However, I still maintain that roundabout is a bad design. I probably won't convince you of that point Why I would argue that it's bad design versus driver training in this case is that the required behaviour on that roundabout is quite specific and so you would need prescriptive in training which is even harder to roll out.

Here's an excerpt from the link what_traffic posted above, I would tend to believe the cop here and not just because it suits my stance but because they will look at collisions in most cases impartially.

However, Chief Superintendent Tom Curley rejected claims from local residents in attendance that the infrastructure was causing this high frequency of collisions, instead blaming the "indiscipline" of drivers who failed to use the roundabouts correctly.

He called on motorists using the roads to learn the rules concerning roundabout and adhere to them.

Iwannahurl

Head The Wall wrote: »

I also don't understand why Iwannahurl needs to see another example of this roundabout somewhere else, what is that going to do to get the people of Ireland drive better? Seeing it elsewhere is not going to be a justification for not understanding it.

Because consistency and self-explanatory road design helps to optimise safety.

What I have been seeking (and probably never will get) is a rational explanation and hopefully a roads engineering precedent for the Ethereal Sprouting Lane. I'd be interested to find out whether it's a home-grown sprout or an imported one.

Iwannahurl

Arielle Mango Rip-off wrote: »

That is the height of bull s**t. Roundabouts are the by far the best method for keeping traffic flow moving. Traffic light in the other hand are nothing but hassle.

But the vast majority of licensed drivers dont have a problem using that roundabout or any other. Thats a myth, which has become quite popular in this forum. Its a minority of drivers who cannot use roundabouts and thats a driver training issue not a design issue or a flaw with roundabouts in general.

1. Incorrect. Galway City roundabouts are not suitable for active commuters such as pedestrians, cyclists and bus users. A number of studies and surveys have repeatedly confirmed this.

2. Seemingly incorrect, if this 700-post thread is any indication.

Iwannahurl

ciotog wrote: »

Yes, properly sited, with appropriate speed control measures and pedestrian access.

Any chance you could post an image of a real-life ideal roundabout that satisfies those criteria?

Bear in mind the volume and speed of traffic on certain roads in Galway City.

ciotog

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Any chance you could post an image of a real-life ideal roundabout that satisfies those criteria?

Bear in mind the volume and speed of traffic on certain roads in Galway City.

There are some photos kicking around somewhere, I'll have to hunt for them so it may be a little while before I post that.

ciotog

Head The Wall wrote: »

Here's an excerpt from the link what_traffic posted above, I would tend to believe the cop here and not just because it suits my stance but because they will look at collisions in most cases impartially.

Your point is well made, I definitely agree that driver behaviour plays a very large part. Earlier in the thread I was talking about lack of lane discipline and signalling as a big problem as well as the issues I encounter when cycling at the Kirwan roundabout (as one example). However I mindful of being seen, as a cycling advocate, to be banging on with the 'motorists are to blame' line. So in criticising the design of the Bodkin roundabout I'm making the point that driver behaviour alone isn't the sole factor (while acknowledging it's a major factor) and that the design simply doesn't make using it straightforward. It's a design that I've not seen in common usage and I believe that contributes to drivers not using it properly. Given it's not commonplace I think it's hard to ensure that drivers are properly trained to deal with it. So, if you had a better design which meant drivers could more easily determine the correct usage then it would make it safer overall.

GalwayGaillimh

I would have to agree that most of the busy city roundabouts are not suitable for pedestrians and cyclists.

Tunnels or Flyovers at roundabouts for pedestrians and cyclists like on the continent would be a better idea and aid the flow of traffic.

In the end of the day these junctions should be redesigned to facilitate the fast unimpeded flow of traffic and also to faciliate the safe crossing for cyclists and pedestrians.

I dont think replacing the current roundabouts with traffic lights will improve the flow of traffic in Galway (Even when the control room for monitoring them goes online) I am sure the new traffic lighted junctions will be of major benefit to the safety of pedestrians and cyclists though.

ciotog

GalwayDotCom wrote: »

I would have to agree that most of the busy city roundabouts are not suitable for pedestrians and cyclists.

Tunnels or Flyovers at roundabouts for pedestrians and cyclists like on the continent would be a better idea and aid the flow of traffic.

In the end of the day these junctions should be redesigned to facilitate the fast unimpeded flow of traffic and also to faciliate the safe crossing for cyclists and pedestrians.

I dont think replacing the current roundabouts with traffic lights will improve the flow of traffic in Galway (Even when the control room for monitoring them goes online) I am sure the new traffic lighted junctions will be of major benefit to the safety of pedestrians and cyclists though.

To be honest, the only roundabout I'm uncomfortable on is the Bodkin roundabout (purely because the other traffic is unpredicatable) but I use it when required; typically if I've stopped off at Halfords for some bicycle pr0n and am off home (Doughiska) via the Sean Mulvoy Road. The others could be much more friendly by simply bringing cyclists off separated cycle facilities and onto the road to use the roundabout as a vehicle and reducing the speeds on the roundabout. If I use the Kirwan roundabout as an example again, the railings at the crossings on Bóthar na dTreabh stop me getting off the roundabout and back onto the offroad cycle facility. You don't need a complex engineering solution to fix that If you look at the changes on the Newcastle Road recently, the cycle lanes now ramp up/down at the junction so it's much safer for cyclists and pedestrians (who no longer have to interact with cyclists on the pavements and on the pelican crossing*)

* I know there are still cyclists who do this rather than use the facilities properly and they're assholes who should be getting on the spot fines from Gardai.

god not you again Iwannahurl. Im personally getting sick of you derailing threads with your nit-picking

In an effort to get this back on topic, here's an update from the council on the works

Update from Galway City Council

Due to the ongoing roadworks along the N6 Corridor please note the following:

N6/Newcastle Upper Junction:

Next Week (10am to 4pm). Anti-skid works remain outstanding and are planned for next week. This work is weather dependent and therefore exact details are not available.

N6/Briarhill Roundabout:

Saturday 5th November: 07:00 to 11:00am

The N6 approach to the Briarhill Roundabout from the Coolagh Roundabout will be reduced to 1 lane. This is to facilitate the installation of cable ducts across the carriageway.

Tuesday 8th November to Friday 11th November from 19:00 hours onwards

Surfacing Works will be taking place. This will require the closure of 1 lane of traffic on the roundabout. Significant delays can be expected. Motorists should take alternative routes where available.

Note:

It is anticipated that with the commencement of surfacing works at Briarhill Roundabout next week, the impact of the works on traffic flows in the area will increase significantly as the month progresses. The works are still on course to be completed on 8th December, 2011.

Galway Transportation Unit wishes to thank all road users for their continued cooperation while these works are underway.

Head The Wall

Iwannahurl wrote: »

2. Seemingly incorrect, if this 700-post thread is any indication.

700 posts? How many people in Ireland drive, its in the millions isn't it!

Iwannahurl

Deleted User wrote: »

god not you again Iwannahurl. Im personally getting sick of you derailing threads with your nit-picking

In an effort to get this back on topic, here's an update from the council on the works

So sorry to pick nits, but as the title says this thread is actually about the Bodkin/Headford Road roundabout.

what_traffic

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So sorry to pick nits, but as the title says this thread is actually about the Bodkin/Headford Road roundabout.

DaCor you have to admit it; Iwannahurl got ya here!

Iwannahurl

Head The Wall wrote: »

700 posts? How many people in Ireland drive, its in the millions isn't it!

Fair enough. There are just over a million drivers, according to Census 2006.

I should have specifically mentioned the poll. It's a small self-selecting sample on a single website, but the thread was an interesting focus group if nothing else.

Sponge Bob

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's a small self-selecting sample on a single website.

Just like feckin heroes of the commuting and cycling universe between Galway and Tuam then .

KevR

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If the Bodkin is "no different from any other roundabout" can you point to other Bodkins nationally, internationally or in roads engineering manuals? That's all I'm asking.

Here you go:
Link

galwaycyclist

KevR wrote: »

Here you go:
Link

Hmm do I see a suggestion of grade separation in here? Not a bodkin alas

antoobrien

KevR wrote: »

Here you go:
Link

Since it was missed earlier this one

what_traffic

KevR wrote: »

Here you go:
Link

In fairness; thats still a poor example. It does not compare in scale with Bodkin/Headford Road roundabout at all. Plus did they not have redesign that junction ( N3/M50 ) recently?

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

Since it was missed earlier this one

Can you even call that a roundabout? How many traffic lights are controlling the various arms at this junction at Islandbridge/Kilmainham?

Can even Bodkin claim to be a roundabout given that 3/5 arms are traffic light controlled?

KevR

what_traffic wrote: »

In fairness; thats still a poor example. It does not compare in scale with Bodkin/Headford Road roundabout at all. Plus did they not have redesign that junction ( N3/M50 ) recently?

The actual roundabout is unchanged - they added additional flyovers and slip lanes to make it a more free-flowing junction.

I doubt an example exactly the same as the Bodkin RAB will be found. Some junctions are unique. I don't exactly think Bodkin RAB is the best junction in the world (even though I personally find it easy to navigate) but I don't see why it being somewhat unique is an issue for some. I think some are suggesting that it is a bad junction because it is unique.

what_traffic

KevR wrote: »

The actual roundabout is unchanged - they added additional flyovers and slip lanes to make it a more free-flowing junction.

Never said it was changed, but the use of this junction has been drastically changed to the usage of the picture in the link that was given!

KevR wrote: »

but I don't see why it being somewhat unique is an issue for some. I think some are suggesting that it is a bad junction because it is unique.

Unique junctions can work, not that Bodkin does as it is a Roundabout with traffic lights which is unique in itself for Galway. However regardless of that argument "Iwannahurl's" question is still valid. Has this exact design ever been used before here? The vast majority of junctions here do have a standard design that are contained within Dept of Transport Design manuals.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

Can you even call that a roundabout? How many traffic lights are controlling the various arms at this junction at Islandbridge/Kilmainham?

When you're actually using it on the ground it is in effect a very large traffic light controlled RAB. Especially if you're trying to come turn right.

The only real difference between this and the HRR is that this one has lights controlling all the entrances & exits.

It's as close as I've seen to the HRR since they got rid of the M4/M50 RAB.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

When you're actually using it on the ground it is in effect a very large traffic light controlled RAB. Especially if you're trying to come turn right.

The only real difference between this and the HRR is that this one has lights controlling all the entrances & exits.

It's as close as I've seen to the HRR since they got rid of the M4/M50 RAB.

I know the junction well - used to go to and from work via this junction for 2 years. To claim that its the closest junction design to the Bodkin "Roundabout" is really clutching at straws. For example if your coming from Kilmainham and going to Islandbridge you just go straight through the junction and same if coming and going from Ballyfermot towards Heuston station. How is that in any way like the situation at the Bodkin "Roundabout".
Is Bodkin "Roundabout" (soon to be extinct) the only one of its kind in the Rep of Ireland?

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

I know the junction well - used to go to and from work via this junction for 2 years. To claim that its the closest junction design to the Bodkin "Roundabout" is really clutching at straws. For example if your coming from Kilmainham and going to Islandbridge you just go straight through the junction and same if coming and going from Ballyfermot towards Heuston station. How is that in any way like the situation at the Bodkin "Roundabout".

That's the only "straight on" bit, but even that is effectively one side of a RAB. The only thing that lets the comparison down is that there's no right turn from the South Circular Rd to St Johns Rd.

Going along Con Colbert Road to St Johns Road (or vice versa) it's anything but straight on, traffic is directed around the SCR junction. Coming from Islandbridge when turning right it's very noticeably a light controlled RAB.

I think you're choosing to see it in a light that suits your POV, not looking at the evidence at hand (especially considering the left turn slips avoiding entering the main junction, but not really long enough to avoid it completely).

Edit

I'd also add the changes to the M50/N32 junction to being very similar to the HRR.

KevR

what_traffic wrote: »

Never said it was changed, but the use of this junction has been drastically changed to the usage of the picture in the link that was given!


Unique junctions can work, not that Bodkin does as it is a Roundabout with traffic lights which is unique in itself for Galway. However regardless of that argument "Iwannahurl's" question is still valid. Has this exact design ever been used before here? The vast majority of junctions here do have a standard design that are contained within Dept of Transport Design manuals.

The question is still valid but I personally don't think the answer is at all important in terms the Bodkin RAB being a good junction or not.

http://www.galwaycity.ie/GeneralNews/281011_04.pdf
I forgot to include in the OP but there will be changes to the entrance/exit to Dún na Coiribe and to the exit from Dunnes - another set of lights will be added there.