Post-natal depression is a myth.

TheyKnowMyIP

Biggins wrote: »

Before I stick you on 'ignore' I will say this.
I have gained the life's knowledge and experience that I have from actually living the situations, been in them and sharing them with others - besides talking to real professionals in the field of depression.
I have NOT just believed everything just because its in a good damn book (and because it might be in a book - well that makes it right of course! Crap!)
Those that I have spoke to, the sufferers and those treating them, you know the medically trained ones with the actual REAL knowledge and REAL much deeper experiences than I, would I further suspect laugh at the utter stupidity of the OP supposition.

You said one thing that I consider to be true
Damn right you are!

Now, where that 'Ignore' button again! I've had enough of this pompous, I've just read a book reading schite.
Thats two 'Ignores' for one thread for the moment.

Ok, fair enough. I guess it's a fair reaction to my comments. If you get the time though, please consider reading at least one of the books(and their associated studies) if you can. The people that wrote em at at the top of their respective fields. I would not have linked those books, had they not been written by the very top experts in Psychiatry. These people aren't Scientologists, that much you can be assured of. Would you say the authors are unqualified to speak on the matter? Depression remains one of the most complicated matters of our time. It's a poorly understood scourge of modern times.

Dudess

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

you sound like some alternative medicine nut:P

Why? And I'm not. The auld ad hominem tactic I see...

So far, the evidence is all over the place.

Exactly.

All we need now is the homeopathic loons on board to complete the farce!

What farce? Oh it's a farce because you disagree with it.

I would trust scientific data over somebodies opinion any day.

So would I - I embrace science. And anti depressants have been proven to work - that's some good science right thurr.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. That does not make their view "correct".

Could also be applied to you.

Scientific data on the other hand, stands on it's own merit.

Exactly. E.g. those people who have been cured by anti depressants.

CathyMoran

I challenge anyone who has been in a room with 7 other screaming new infants and their mother's for a few days not to be under stress of some form...I was lucky I got out of the hospital in time but I was under extreme stress even though I was thrilled over the birth of my daughter who was a traumatic birth (it was an emergency c-section).

nlgbbbblth

Kaneda_ wrote: »

Women are simply not allowed to admit to themselves or others that they are depressed about being mothers.Unlike decisions about career, where to live, who to marry, etc, this one cannot be undone. Some find it hard to cope with the changes it brings, feeling like the experience did not live up to expectations manufactured and promoted by society. This creates cognitive dissonance and eventually depression.

All people experience major distress, sadness, and anxiety at various points in their lives. Post-natal depression is no different than any other major form of depression.We feel it when we lose our jobs, have loved ones die, and when life becomes overwhelming. But this particular depression is fueled by a decision that a woman is not permitted to regret and cannot take back.It is done.Final.

There is only DEPRESSION. No need to create a special label that only exists because saying "I REGRET THIS DECISION!" is not acceptable in a society that promotes motherhood as some magical transcendent experience.Not the case for everyone and we need to acknowledge that. For some it is a cause of considerable pain, regret, and emotional turmoil.

Are you the person that hates kids?

looksee

CathyMoran wrote: »

I challenge anyone who has been in a room with 7 other screaming new infants and their mother's for a few days not to be under stress of some form...I was lucky I got out of the hospital in time but I was under extreme stress even though I was thrilled over the birth of my daughter who was a traumatic birth (it was an emergency c-section).

You might be under stress, you might be exhausted and upset, that is not necessarily postnatal depression. That is just a natural reaction to a situation. Many mothers get a brief attack of 'baby blues', an apparently irrational attack of depression on about the third day after giving birth. Something to do with hormones sorting themselves out I think, usually it goes away quickly. I don't know whether PD is a continuation of this or something different, but it does happen and it is real.

Wibbs

Biggins wrote: »

Now, where that 'Ignore' button again! I've had enough of this pompous, I've just read a book reading schite.
Thats two 'Ignores' for one thread for the moment.

I don't get all this ignore stuff with you at all. There are loads of people I don't agree with(the OP being one), but going out of ones way to delete them from any further threads? You can ignore in your own head you know. I dunno, seems a bit childish to me.

Dudess wrote:

So would I - I embrace science. And anti depressants have been proven to work - that's some good science right thurr.

Yep they have been shown to work above placebo for more intractable cases and that's bloody great. Another weapon in the arsenal set against these often crippling group of illnesses. To be fair though, for low to mid level depressive conditions they're much less effective. On a par with placebo and with sometimes well dodgy side effects*. So it would be my take that an open mind and objective look at the why's should be on the table. Clearly there's a mental component to the treatment if placebo works. I don't negate that BTW. Placebo can be very powerful and when people in those studies were told they were on placebo the symptoms came back. Still like I said open mind on this rather than over prescription for those more common lower level conditions.

And it can be well argued they are indeed over prescribed and all too often seen as a first response to someone presenting with mental/emotional problems. Along with the folks talking of their own experiences I'd add I've seen this happen myself. An ex who went to the GP with possible bronchitis came out with a script for an SSRI. Why? She was in a crappy job at the time and was about to be let go, so in the course of the GP consultation, said GP reckoned she was "depressed" and wrote out the script. She didn't take them. Well she wasn't depressed. She had a case of the momentary blues, which ain't depression, not by a long shot. Needless to say her life changed as life will and she was/is fine. I've seen and heard similar more than once.

There are reasons other than "big pharma"(when I read that I tend to go :rolleyes:) for this. Now we're not at the level of uptake in the US, thank the gods, but in this country our attitude to mental health and the mental health service itself is frankly shíte. The resources aren't there for the people working in the area. So it can be easier to throw out scripts for this stuff. IMHO I would liken the drugs to antibiotics. Very powerful tools in the right context, but not to be handed out willy nilly. If this forum had been around in the 60's and I said "we're handing out antibiotics like smarties and this will come back to bite us" I guarantee I'd get static from it, not least from doctors. They know better now and I strongly suspect they'll be a lot more cautious about SSRI medications in the future.

On the PND front it seems counseling is as effective as medication http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_depression#Treatment




*some researchers(not tinfoilhatter/scientoligist fcukwits either) are concerned that these class of drugs in some people may actually turn an acute episode into a more chronic yo yo condition.

Wibbs

looksee wrote: »

I don't know whether PD is a continuation of this or something different, but it does happen and it is real.

Oh it's defo real alright and can even go more extreme into dangerous psychosis. TBH Im not surprised considering the level of physical, mental and environmental changes that come with pregnancy and birth. Talk about a major upheaval. I can't think of too many others in life that would compare. For dads it's upheaval enough and they don't have the physical effects. I'm surprised it's not more common a condition TBH.

Abi

Wibbs wrote: »

I don't get all this ignore stuff with you at all. There are loads of people I don't agree with(the OP being one), but going out of ones way to delete them from any further threads? You can ignore in your own head you know.

I wonder how many people he has on ignore now



Tbh, since I joined boards, I've never put anyone on ignore until literally just minutes ago. I've always just blanked their posts, because they usually contain petty little snippets that I'm 'supposed' to see. Quite frankly, I skim past their posts, but I'd rather just erase the text altogether. Finally a use for the function

Wibbs

Abi wrote: »

I wonder how many people he has on ignore now

:pac: True.

Tbh, since I joined boards, I've never put anyone on ignore until literally just minutes ago. I've always just blanked their posts, because they usually contain petty little snippets that I'm 'supposed' to see. Quite frankly, I skim past their posts, but I'd rather just erase the text altogether. Finally a use for the function

Oh I could see flipping the ignore switch if I attracted some oddball stalker/twat alright. Especially if they were doing it subtly enough not to have the mods/admins see it, but for an opinion, no matter how daft? Not for me anyway. 9 times outa 10 even with the more daft I/we can find at least some common ground however small. And with the 1 in 10 type I still browse over them and then flip the ignore switch in my head.

carlybabe1

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Nobody has the balls to address the statement made by the man who basically wrote the book on mental illness denouncing the entire field as a sham. These so called "illnesses" should be observed under a neurological scope. Basic guesswork, throwing pills, and humming and hawing to reach a diagnosis is not science, it's at best, protoscience.

Psychiatry will fall if these extremly serious concerns aren't addressed. Mark my words.

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Everything that happens inside in the brain body is a chemical hormonal reaction. I am simply pointing out they don't have a solid idea of how the mind works at a neurological level. Make no mistake, the serotonin hypothesis was consigned to the dustbin years ago. The drug companies are taking people for a ride. Depression is not well understood. That isn't to say people don't suffer from it, but it's not understood well enough to be analysed and diagnosed in a lab like cancer and diabetes. Their understanding is severely limited at this point in time. This raises the question, would it be possible for the companies to "invent" diseases like the lead author of the DSM is suggesting? I think so.

FYP

I was gonna post a scathing reply, but as it seems that you're gleaning your info from some flucked up material straight out of scientology, or some other weird "cult who are misogynists, but are disguising it as religion" I dont really see the point. And fyi, having a college education does not automatically mean that you're not a flucking idiot, it just means that you have applied your brain academically

Now!! whos up for a sunday roast?? I regret having my kids sooooo much that I relish making them yummy sunday dinners

TheyKnowMyIP

carlybabe1 wrote: »

FYP

I was gonna post a scathing reply, but as it seems that you're gleaning your info from some flucked up material straight out of scientology, or some other weird "cult who are misogynists, but are disguising it as religion" I dont really see the point. And fyi, having a college education does not automatically mean that you're not a flucking idiot, it just means that you have applied your brain academically

Now!! whos up for a sunday roast?? I regret having my kids sooooo much that I relish making them yummy sunday dinners

I give up. If you aren't willing to engage in a debate given proper scientific evidence, there is no point in arguing futher. Burying your head in the sand won't make these issues go away, there are some very serious problems with the whole field of Psychiatry at present. Nothing to do with Scientology, just cold hard facts. Personally, I cannot lie to myself. Just can't do it. Don't dismiss my point of view because it's unpopular, there is a substantial amount of evidence to support my views.

Do as you please, I can't convince a mind that has already been made up.

Overheal

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Do as you please, I can't convince a mind that has already been made up.

Black pot meet kettle

pragmatic1

opinion guy wrote: »

AHAHAHA. You're kidding right ? Freud has been widely, widely discredited. CBT - about the only psych treatment with a solid evidence base behind it comes from psychology.

Dont know where you picked up that I'm an advocate of Sigmund Freud and psychoanalysis. I aint.

This is a theory. An unproven one. And even if it was proven there is no evidence to say that low levels of serotonin causes depression, in fact it may well be that depression causes low levels of serotonin.

Bit more than a theory dude. And ssri's have been used to successfully treat millions of people suffering from clinical depression.

parrai

The original post is annoying because it has been slapped together to produce a reaction, which it has successfully done....I would like to hear the ops' grounds for making such a claim....

All the 'experts' in the world can hypothesise all they like, but try explaining that to a woman who has spent 40 weeks (assuming full term is reached) pregnant and then has to go through PND.

The page never refuses ink....

jtsuited

"Oh look at me, I saw some antipsychiatry videos and now I want to tell the world of how I know better than nearly every doctor in the world"..........essentially what every thread like this ever boils down to.

TheyKnowMyIP

Sombody please link to some credible evidence that anti d's cure a known chemical imbalance. You will be searching a very long time, the entire basis on which these drugs are prescribed is very shaky as Wibbs has mentioned.

Surely the doctors are always right? They would never intentionally overprescribe medication and not question pharma industry funded research, no would they? Most of the "research" carried out on these drugs is biased towards the aims ot the companies in question. It's in their favour to prescribe these drugs, even with a shaky theory of chemical imbalance benind em.

It's really quite simple. Can you not at least see the point I am trying to make? Maybe I will dig up some pharma influenced research and show you the inadequete nature of the claims being made?

At least read the articles I have presented. What do you make of the conclusions about the questions being asked? Complete Hogwash from pioneers in their field?

Kasabian

Depression exists, labelling it doesn't change it. Whatever the trigger it is a real illness. I know.

Post Natal Depression exists, I know I lived with it. (Ex Partner)

Alcoholic depression exists, I know I lived with it.(Myself)

Bereavement Depression exists, I know I lived with it.(My Mum when she lost her Mum)

The human mind is fragile it needs to be exercised and nurtured and sometimes the vessel that holds it needs a hug and be told that things will be alright.

I am not qualified to express a medical opinion but my life experience tells me that it exists.

OP you are a troll IMO.

jtsuited

your point has been made by thousands of 16 year old kids who have just stumbled upon the complexity of medical science and can't appreciate it's subtleties.

There was a huge thread on here that was subsequently moved to Conspiracy Theory forums, where all the evidence you can ask for is presented. I seriously recommend you read it. the thread title was 'psychiatry is bogus'.

Knock yourself out.

TheyKnowMyIP

jtsuited wrote: »

your point has been made by thousands of 16 year old kids who have just stumbled upon the complexity of medical science and can't appreciate it's subtleties.

There was a huge thread on here that was subsequently moved to Conspiracy Theory forums, where all the evidence you can ask for is presented. I seriously recommend you read it. the thread title was 'psychiatry is bogus'.

Knock yourself out.

Ah, the auld "Conspiracy Theorist" nonsense. None of the claims made in those articles are the result of a conspiracy, it's more to do with the inadequecy of the research carried out in SSRI trials.

You you please at least read those articles and summarise their findings in your own words? Thanks.

No point in aruging with only one side/point of view. The claims I am making are substantied by respected people in the field of Psychiatry, how would you respond to that. Allen Frances stating "it's bull****" not raise a red flag?

pragmatic1

Wibbs wrote: »

On this score I'd have to agree with TheyKnowMyIP. Numero uno, did you know they can't measure serotonin levels in a living brain(they can measure byproducts of it's breakdown in the body, but these byproducts can be affected by other processes)?

Yes. Its a neurotransmitter so its not possible to directly measure levels in a living human. Yes biological matrices are complex. However, we have animal models and we can indirectly measure serotonin levels.

Numero dos, women have lower serotonin levels than men on average. Does this mean women are depressed? Nope. Forget gender, some have lower levels naturally and show no clinical signs, while others have high levels and are depressed.

No of course it doesnt. However, women do suffer from depression at roughly twice the rate that men do. Yes people are different.

Numeros tres, for low to mid level depression placebo work as well as SSRI's. Placebo and exercise works better again. SSRI's do work for more intractable cases, so its not as some hippies suggest they don't work at all, but there's a lot more going on. The serotonin hypothesis is a shaky and simplistic enough one.

Exactly. They do work for cases of clinical depression. Its not just some casual relationship thats been observed. Our knowledge of the human brain may be limited at present and the use of ssri's might not be the panacea for depression, but its a good start for many people suffering from depression.

parrai

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Sombody please link to some credible evidence that anti d's cure a known chemical imbalance. You will be searching a very long time, the entire basis on which these drugs are prescribed is very shaky as Wibbs has mentioned.

Surely the doctors are always right? They would never intentionally overprescribe medication and not question pharma industry funded research, no would they? Most of the "research" carried out on these drugs is biased towards the aims ot the companies in question. It's in their favour to prescribe these drugs, even with a shaky theory of chemical imbalance benind em.

It's really quite simple. Can you not at least see the point I am trying to make? Maybe I will dig up some pharma influenced research and show you the inadequete nature of the claims being made?

At least read the articles I have presented. What do you make of the conclusions about the questions being asked? Complete Hogwash from pioneers in their field?

This is off topic....


The topic is Post Natal Depression Is A Myth. Now if the woman had suffered from depression beforehand, that's one thing. When woman becomes pregnant with no history of depression, goes full term and then goes through PND, that's another. Therefore it isn't a myth, and there are plenty of women on the edge of despair, that would argue this point of it being a myth if this were in a pregnancy forum.

Pinklady11

I'm not a doctor but as someone who is currently battling PND, I believe I'm more than qualified to post my opinion here.

PND is real, and it's not caused "by regret" as OP stated. The cause of PND is unknown but some doctors believe it's linked to hormones and/or chemical reactions in the brain. I personally don't know what caused it but either way it is very real.

I have been on anti-depressants for over a year now and I would readily admit they do not cure depression but what they did do for me was lift my mood. They took me out of a very dark place to a level where I felt I could function again.

My real recovery only began when I started counselling. I'm pleased to say I'm doing very well but still have a long road ahead of me.

Anyone who thinks PND is a myth is nothing short of an idiot and if they themselves ever suffered from it or lived with someone who did, they would soon realise how real it is.

3ndahalfof6

its just an excuse to not go back to work or to get people to feel sorry for them, so other people will do the work for them,

they just had a child, they are built for it, but use it to try to get sympathy while not engaging with the child fully,

I do think its sad, its there design to perform this function, if only men could give birth there would be no such thing as after birth depression.

no i'm not a doctor or dentist but I do cut the lawn.

Biggins

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

its just an excuse to not go back to work or to get people to feel sorry for them, so other people will do the work for them,

they just had a child, they are built for it, but use it to try to get sympathy while not engaging with the child fully,

I do think its sad, its there design to perform this function, if only men could give birth there would be no such thing as after birth depression.

no i'm not a doctor or dentist but I do cut the lawn.

See the post above you - then grow up and kop yourself on!

3ndahalfof6

Pinklady11 wrote: »

I'm not a doctor but as someone who is currently battling PND, I believe I'm more than qualified to post my opinion here.

PND is real, and it's not caused "by regret" as OP stated. The cause of PND is unknown but some doctors believe it's linked to hormones and/or chemical reactions in the brain. I personally don't know what caused it but either way it is very real.

I have been on anti-depressants for over a year now and I would readily admit they do not cure depression but what they did do for me was lift my mood. They took me out of a very dark place to a level where I felt I could function again.

My real recovery only began when I started counselling. I'm pleased to say I'm doing very well but still have a long road ahead of me.

Anyone who thinks PND is a myth is nothing short of an idiot and if they themselves ever suffered from it or lived with someone who did, they would soon realise how real it is.

there needs to be a reason to sell pills, just like greeting cards they keep inventing reasons to sell them.

Pinklady11

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

there needs to be a reason to sell pills, just like greeting cards they keep inventing reasons to sell them.

So if you have a chest infection or similar, you won't take antibiotics because they are just trying to scam money out of you?

Wibbs

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Yes. Its a neurotransmitter so its not possible to directly measure levels in a living human. Yes biological matrices are complex. However, we have animal models and we can indirectly measure serotonin levels.

Like I pointed out indirect measurement is very vague and the results can be swayed by other processes. The self same animal models have shown this.

No of course it doesnt. However, women do suffer from depression at roughly twice the rate that men do. Yes people are different.

Depends on which stats you look at and how one analyses same. Bipolar depression(and schizophrenia) affects both equally, unipolar is like you say double for women(8% versus 4%). However more women present to a doctor than men(more women also present with eating disorders than men, though that figure is changing as societal pressures do). One is more likely to be noticed and presented for treatment with a bipolar disorder by those around you, so the actual figures for unipolar men may be higher. Suicide rates would seem to suggest that. Other things may suggest it too. Men are three times more likely to abuse alcohol and other drugs. Men are also three times more likely to be diagnosed with personality disorders. On the women side, they're more likely to have situational triggers than men unrelated to serotonin as a trigger. They're more likely to be socially and economically disadvantaged and more likely to suffer assault, both physical and sexual. And as this very thread has pointed out they also go through the major upheaval that is pregnancy and childbirth. Treating same with SSRI type therapies would be akin to giving antibiotics and painkillers to someone with a rotten tooth rather than removing said tooth.

Exactly. They do work for cases of clinical depression. Its not just some casual relationship thats been observed. Our knowledge of the human brain may be limited at present and the use of ssri's might not be the panacea for depression, but its a good start for many people suffering from depression.

I would respectfully disagree. Yes for clinical depression above the low-mid level, but not a "good start" for those below that line. And that's my issue. Not the efficacy in some cases, but the notion that they should be the kickoff point and first choice. Not with the oft time serious side effects that go with said medications. Including suicide ideation. It's not so long ago these class of drugs were suggested and given to adolescents(and still are) yet now have warnings attached for their use in such groups because of patient and doctor reports and concerns in the field. Only last year a 16 year old niece of a friend of mine was put on high dose SSRI therapy. She's required hospitalisation on two occasions since because of serious and in earnest suicide attempts. Attempts she never made, nor reported as having feelings for before. Her parents have subsequently sought a second medical opinion(abroad as her mum isn't Irish) and she's been taken off them and while not out of the woods, is not suicidal.

Wibbs

Pinklady11 wrote: »

Anyone who thinks PND is a myth is nothing short of an idiot and if they themselves ever suffered from it or lived with someone who did, they would soon realise how real it is.

+1

3ndahalfof6

Biggins wrote: »

See the post above you - then grow up and kop yourself on!

hey B its AH, but if im not to post here there is nothing left for me on boards, im not good with rules.

Biggins

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

hey B its AH, but if im not to post here there is nothing left for me on boards, im not good with rules.

Post something with intelligence - that has intelligence.
It will do you better credit.