Post-natal depression is a myth.

Logical Fallacy

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

They can be depending on the level of inspection required. It's not just the obvious you need to check for. Boards.ie got hacked a while back. No amount of "precautions" could have prevented that. It's the edge cases you need to worry about.

Any machine connected to the Internet operates under the basis I have described. Why can't this work with people?

Just to **** with your point...your computer is programmed and built by people, your firewalls constructed and programmed by people etc etc.

The computer has nothing to do with it.

As such, by connecting your computer to the internet and thinking you are safe behind your firewall just means you have chosen to blindly trust the makers of said firewall.

In short, your shoddy analogy leaves me completely failing to see your point, unless i dismiss said analogy and take the rest of your posting at face value.

In short, i think the whole computer thing is killing your argument...as it makes no ****ing sense.

TheyKnowMyIP

Overheal wrote: »

Actually I believe the hack originated from a weak or leaked password from a high level account. Strengthening and Securing said password would have surely prevented the attack. So I disagree with you.

Not sure what this has to do with PND though.

What about the other mostly undiscovered bugs? Anything more than "Hello World" cannot be entirely trusted, especially on the Internet. Professional crackers spend all day reversing compiled binary software and analysing it for bugs. If this isn't persistance, I don't know what is.

TheyKnowMyIP

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Just to **** with your point...your computer is programmed and built by people, your firewalls constructed and programmed by people etc etc.

The computer has nothing to do with it.

As such, by connecting your computer to the internet and thinking you are safe behind your firewall just means you have chosen to blindly trust the makers of said firewall.

In short, your shoddy analogy leaves me completely failing to see your point, unless i dismiss said analogy and take the rest of your posting at face value.

In short, i think the whole computer thing is killing your argument...as it makes no ****ing sense.

No. The primary point to take away from this, is that the computer operates on the basis of principle of least privilege. Bugs can and will happen. It's how we deal with them is that matters. Likewise, humans will screw you off key, even if you are the most paranoid person on earth. The trick lies in preventing people from harming you as much as possible. The analogy fits perfectly. OT ALERT!!!

Overheal

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

No sorry. I have no doubt it's a very stressfull thing to go through. I still don't think it's disease of serotonin deficiency as most are led to believe. Whatever the hell it is, they need to publish better research.

Is that what they're calling it? A serotonin deficiency?

I doubt that.

Perhaps they stated there was a correlation between Serotonin levels and PND, that I would believe. Otherwise everyone with low serotonin levels would be diagnosed with PND. Not to mention there are, I believe, hundreds of Neurotransmitter types. Most 'ordinary' folk (with no Psychiatric background) focus on maybe six of them: Serotonin, Endorphin, Dopamine, Epinephrine, and a few others.

I think your argument on this issue is purely based on the fact that you have no working knowledge of the topic. And since it can't be explained to you in the space of a stub you've dismissed it as snake oil science.

UglyBolloxFace

Biggins wrote: »

And your qualified to say this stuff for sure how exactly?

I disagree with you.

Are you qualified to disagree with what he's saying?

Haelium

People are not allowed to admit to themselves that they are stressed about something that happened... you see where I'm going with this.

Biggins

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Are you qualified to disagree with what he's saying?

I am not qualified to disagree with what he has crapped on about (nor have said so or tried to impose that idea).

I have stated though (to yet again repeat myself) that I've been through many number of experiences myself over a life-time already, come in contact with friends, strangers etc, (not also including working and learning though a charity that supports depression sufferers) and that also includes my wife and what she has gone through, to know that the OP is talking through his fcuking arse.

A blithering stupid post (by a troll I suspect) further sad supported by uneducated, dumb sheep!

Overheal

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Are you qualified to disagree with what he's saying?

In fairness he doesn't really have many qualifications himself that would warrant agreeing with.

Corkfeen

Think Kaneda is a bit of a troll, didn't he have the thread about having children under 30 = a waste of your life.

Not all forms of depression are the same. It's logical to differentiate between them, their causes and treatments vary, you're argument is like saying why bother putting labels on different forms of cancer, sure it's just cancer... Ohh and to finish, Post natal depression is generally not simply a person regretting having kids as you seem to be believe.

UglyBolloxFace

Biggins wrote: »

I am not qualified to disagree with what he has crapped on about (nor have said so or tried to impose that idea).

I have stated though (to yet again repeat myself) that I've been through many number of experiences myself over a life-time already, come in contact with friends, strangers etc, (not also including working and learning though a charity that supports depression sufferers) and that also includes my wife and what she has gone through, to know that the OP is talking through his fcuking arse.

A blithering stupid post (by a troll I suspect) further sad supported by uneducated, dumb sheep!

I respect and appreciate everything you've gone through - I was just simply making a point.

"uneducated, dumb sheep!" - Including me in that bracket, are you? My BSc and MSc would beg to differ.

TheyKnowMyIP

Overheal wrote: »

Is that what they're calling it? A serotonin deficiency?

I doubt that.

Perhaps they stated there was a correlation between Serotonin levels and PND, that I would believe. Otherwise everyone with low serotonin levels would be diagnosed with PND. Not to mention there are, I believe, hundreds of Neurotransmitter types. Most 'ordinary' folk (with no Psychiatric background) focus on maybe six of them: Serotonin, Endorphin, Dopamine, Epinephrine, and a few others.

I think your argument on this issue is purely based on the fact that you have no working knowledge of the topic. And since it can't be explained to you in the space of a stub you've dismissed it as snake oil science.

Do you believe that PND is basically a biological deficiency of these cited neurotransmitters in the brain? Would you consider it as simply a state of mind? Why do we need these drugs at all?

_Beau_

Kaneda_ wrote: »

Women are simply not allowed to admit to themselves or others that they are depressed about being mothers.Unlike decisions about career, where to live, who to marry, etc, this one cannot be undone. Some find it hard to cope with the changes it brings, feeling like the experience did not live up to expectations manufactured and promoted by society. This creates cognitive dissonance and eventually depression.

All people experience major distress, sadness, and anxiety at various points in their lives. Post-natal depression is no different than any other major form of depression.We feel it when we lose our jobs, have loved ones die, and when life becomes overwhelming. But this particular depression is fueled by a decision that a woman is not permitted to regret and cannot take back.It is done.Final.

There is only DEPRESSION. No need to create a special label that only exists because saying "I REGRET THIS DECISION!" is not acceptable in a society that promotes motherhood as some magical transcendent experience.Not the case for everyone and we need to acknowledge that. For some it is a cause of considerable pain, regret, and emotional turmoil.

Your lack of knowledge makes you look foolish.

Some thoughts are better off kept to oneself.

UglyBolloxFace

Overheal wrote: »

In fairness he doesn't really have many qualifications himself that would warrant agreeing with.

Oh don't get me wrong, I do not agree with the OP at all.

I was just broadening the discussion.

Overheal

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Do you believe that PND is basically a biological deficiency of these cited neurotransmitters in the brain?

Nope. That would be oversimplistic and not even in acknowledgement of basic neuropsychology.

Would you consider it as simply a state of mind?

Again, that would be an oversimplistic approach.

Have you heard of the Biopsychosocial model, by chance? Granted there are limitations in just about every approach you can imagine - certainly it's a lot harder to study psychology than say, gravity - but some models out there do try to take a lot of this into account. But without getting too off topic you can't just pigeonhole this into simply being either a Cognitive or a Biological phenomena. I mean just look at your coffee mug and try to imagine what kind of Cognitive and Biological functions are going on as you attempt to do that. Your eyes convert light into neural impulses these neural impulses are interpreted by the brain and your brain produces cognitive thought in a number of ways for you to think 'thats a coffe mug!' or 'I'm thirsty', etc. - It gets even more fun when you look at a naked woman, then we can start talking about how the brain controls the endocrine system and your hormones.

Why do we need these drugs at all?

They treat the symptoms, not the conditions. As I have said, I reckon the serotonin levels are correlated, not the cause of PND. It would be somewhat like saying we could cure hunger if only we could give people a pill that would stop them from feeling hungry, as opposed to what we've long since and instinctively known is generally caused by a want of food. Food usually solves the hunger issue. Therefore we don't need a psychiatric 'cure' for hunger, however hunger and just about everything else you perceive in your universe runs through the brain in some fashion.

Still confused? Here: http://xkcd.com/925/

To say PND is bogus is just ridiculous. It happens, even if it's not fully understood or we lack the ability to prevent it.

Dudess

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Nobody has the balls to address the statement made by the man who basically wrote the book on mental illness denouncing the entire field as a sham. These so called "illnesses" should be observed under a neurological scope. Basic guesswork, throwing pills, and humming and hawing to reach a diagnosis is not science, it's at best, protoscience.

Psychiatry will fall if these extremly serious concerns aren't addressed. Mark my words.

Anti depressants help a lot of people - you're using speculation (even if backed up by research) to make absolute statements, and insisting it's the truth and that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Fair enough if you're swayed that way but you'd do well not to act as though what you believe/want to believe is definitely the reality.

Have you had depression yourself? How about people who have really severe stuff like hearing voices and having hallucinations and imagining all sorts of conspiracies to control them or kill them? Surely that's not good, and not something that's subjectively problematic? And surely if drugs stop these things happening, then that's something being done right?

Surely you can't deny psychiatry has improved since the days of lobotomies, ECT (when not needed) and being locked up and left to rot?

Re the OP: I'm sure there are cases where new parents (both mother and father) develop depression because of stress and lack of sleep, and I do know someone who had a breakdown because of the baby crying solidly for 18 months. But post natal depression is not the same.

Methinks some peeps who don't want to have kids and resent others not feeling the same as they do are coming up with pop psychology to validate their views...

TheyKnowMyIP

In the meantime, read these two books by actual Scientists who have torn apart the chemical basis for Depression. If they are willing to intentionally lie about this, what else is on the block?

Dudess

Well what about the other experts - those who have experienced it, and have had their lives improved, or have even been cured, by anti depressants?

TheyKnowMyIP

Dudess wrote: »

Anti depressants help a lot of people - you're using speculation (even if backed up by research) to make absolute statements, and insisting it's the truth and that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Fair enough if you're swayed that way but you'd do well not to act as though what you believe/want to believe is definitely the reality.

Have you had depression yourself? How about people who have really severe stuff like hearing voices and having hallucinations and imagining all sorts of conspiracies to control them or kill them? Surely that's not good, and not something that's subjectively problematic? And surely if drugs stop these things happening, then that's something being done right?

Surely you can't deny psychiatry has improved since the days of lobotomies, ECT (when not needed) and being locked up and left to rot?

Re the OP: I'm sure there are cases where new parents (both mother and father) develop depression because of stress and lack of sleep, and I do know someone who had a breakdown because of the baby crying solidly for 18 months. But post natal depression is not the same.

Methinks some peeps who don't want to have kids and resent others not feeling the same as they do are coming up with pop psychology to validate their views...

I don't have to justify my position. I could die and it would not matter. There is enough reputable evidence out there to support my arguments if you look past their propoganda. What do you make of the lead author of Psychiatry(Allen Frances) stating that definition of mental disorders is bull****? Can't get any closer to the source than that.

If you can't prove chemical imbalances, why should one claim Depression has a biological basis? It's not up to me to disprove a non existent claim. Administering drugs without little understanding is guesswork. Would you believe me if I told you that you had diabetes without objective proof? I don't think so. Why should PND as an illness be any different?

Overheal

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

In the meantime, read these two books by actual Scientists who have torn apart the chemical basis for Depression. If they are willing to intentionally lie about this, what else is on the block?

And?

If you look at the entire history of Psychology (or indeed, most sciences), you'll find plenty of healthy disagreement within the particular scientific community. You think astrophysicists agree on everything? If not, do you think that means that the majority of astrophysicists are trying to craft a conspiracy?

It's called Critical Thinking.

TheyKnowMyIP

Dudess wrote: »

Well what about the other experts - those who have experienced it, and have had their lives improved, or have even been cured, by anti depressants?

Without clear scientific data(I am talking very hard numbers like the ones presented in the cited books) these people are not to be trusted. Anybody could make a claim like that, especially so if money ties are involved.

Dudess

It's kinda in vogue to question psychiatry I see here - going against a grain for the sake of it etc. TKMIP, why are you ignoring any of the points I've made about people's actual experiences of getting well thanks to anti-depressants? Sure, let scientists discredit it by all means, but they're not necessarily right.

Biggins

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

...My BSc and MSc would beg to differ.

...And these medical(?) qualifications have been able to further provide proof of the OP's crap where?

If you do NOT agree with the OP, you certainly have brains then clearly. Pity others don't!

Overheal

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Without clear scientific data(I am talking very hard numbers like the ones presented in the cited books) these people are not to be trusted. Anybody could make a claim like that, especially so if money ties are involved.

You realize that even if someone produces a scientific study it doesn't mean the conclusion is correct, right?

TheyKnowMyIP

Overheal wrote: »

And?

If you look at the entire history of Psychology (or indeed, most sciences), you'll find plenty of healthy disagreement within the particular scientific community. You think astrophysicists agree on everything? If not, do you think that means that the majority of astrophysicists are trying to craft a conspiracy?

This isn't a conspiracy. Not by a very long shot. A conspiracy generally lacks evidence. If you have the time to read those books, please do. Mental Illness is very real, that isn't open for debate. However, the biological based model of Psychiatry of mental disorders as diseases is a scam. The guy that wrote the book on mental illness says so, along with people more qualified than I on the matter. These people at at the top of their field.

This isn't trolling. There are some very questionable practices going on with these drugs and their administration. Personally, I have great respect for psychology, and I feel it's better to talk these things over with some compassion and empathy by trained professionals. I would do a poor job, personally. Lying to vulnerable people is despicable imo.

Throwing drugs at people isn't going to quell the suicide rate. The problems that lead to these decisions are far more complex than some disgustingly reductionist view of humans as machines that lack this neurotransmitter or that neurotransmitter.

Biggins

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

This isn't a conspiracy. Not by a very long shot. A conspiracy generally lacks evidence. If you have the time to read those books, please do. Mental Illness is very real, that isn't open for debate. However, the biological based model of Psychiatry of mental disorders as diseases is a scam. The guy that wrote the book on mental illness says so, along with people more qualified than I on the matter. These people at at the top of their field.

This isn't trolling. There are some very questionable practices going on with these drugs and their administration. Personally, I have great respect for psychology, and I feel it's better to talk these things over with some compassion and empathy by trained professionals. I would do a poor job, personally. Lying to vulnerable people is despicable imo.

Throwing drugs at people isn't going to quell the suicide rate. The problems that lead to these decisions are far more complex than some disgustingly reductionist view of humans as machines that lack this neurotransmitter or that neurotransmitter.

Frankly at this stage I think your trying to shift the whole goal posts of the topic and by extension, coming across to be as further trolling (seeing as you mention it) in behavior.
Another for the 'ignore' list'.

TheyKnowMyIP

Overheal wrote: »

You realize that even if someone produces a scientific study it doesn't mean the conclusion is correct, right?

I am not talking a couple of studies. The book cites studies throughout a very long period. At no point is the chemical model of Depression substantiated with proof. Even in 2011, not one shred of credible evidence has been produced. Hard to believe, maybe, but that is what the experts are saying. Depression is far more complex than they are willing to admit openly.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/aug/18/illusions-psychiatry-exchange/
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/jun/23/epidemic-mental-illness-why/?pagination=false

TheyKnowMyIP

Biggins wrote: »

Frankly at this stage I think your trying to shift the whole goal posts of the topic and by extension, coming across to be as further trolling (seeing as you mention it) in behavior.
Another for the 'ignore' list'.

Ignore all you want. I will leave it up to the Experts of this field to discredit the chemical imbalance myth. I am simply going by what I have read, contrasted the information, and found holes. I could be wrong.

I am not saying anything more on this matter. You need to research the topic further to find the issue is nowhere near as clear cut as you are led to believe. btw, I hate conspiracy theorists. Loonbags the lot of em.

GAME OVER

Dudess

Game over?

TheyKnowMyIP

Dudess wrote: »

It's kinda in vogue to question psychiatry I see here - going against a grain for the sake of it etc. TKMIP, why are you ignoring any of the points I've made about people's actual experiences of getting well thanks to anti-depressants? Sure, let scientists discredit it by all means, but they're not necessarily right.

Sorry to be mean, but you sound like some alternative medicine nut:P Emotions have nothing to do with the identification of these disorders chemically in a lab. So far, the evidence is all over the place. Moreso than any other field of conventional medicine. All we need now is the homeopathic loons on board to complete the farce! I would trust scientific data over somebodies opinion any day. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. That does not make their view "correct". Scientific data on the other hand, stands on it's own merit.

Biggins

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Ignore all you want. I will leave it up to the Experts of this field to discredit the chemical imbalance myth. I am simply going by what I have read, contrasted the information, and found holes. I could be wrong.

I am not saying anything more on this matter. You need to research the topic further to find the issue is nowhere near as clear cut as you are led to believe. btw, I hate conspiracy theorists. Loonbags the lot of em.

GAME OVER

Before I stick you on 'ignore' I will say this.
I have gained the life's knowledge and experience that I have from actually living the situations, been in them and sharing them with others - besides talking to real professionals in the field of depression.
I have NOT just believed everything just because its in a good damn book (and because it might be in a book - well that makes it right of course! Crap!)
Those that I have spoke to, the sufferers and those treating them, you know the medically trained ones with the actual REAL knowledge and REAL much deeper experiences than I, would I further suspect laugh at the utter stupidity of the OP supposition.

You said one thing that I consider to be true

"I could be wrong" -

Damn right you are!

Now, where that 'Ignore' button again! I've had enough of this pompous, I've just read a book reading schite.
Thats two 'Ignores' for one thread for the moment.