Starting a wine cellar

afatbollix

I used the wine socitey as I live in London

They do have a showroom up north
where you can pay UK VAT & duty = cheaper wine

The case cost me £45
http://www.thewinesociety.com/ServicesContent.aspx?PageCode=DeliColl&PageName=Delivery%20and%20Collection&SubPageCode=DELIVNI&SubPageName=Collection%20in%20Northern%20Ireland

Padraig Mor

afatbollix wrote: »

I used the wine socitey as I live in London

They do have a showroom up north
where you can pay UK VAT & duty = cheaper wine

The case cost me £45
http://www.thewinesociety.com/ServicesContent.aspx?PageCode=DeliColl&PageName=Delivery%20and%20Collection&SubPageCode=DELIVNI&SubPageName=Collection%20in%20Northern%20Ireland

I think UK duty is higher than ours though? And scheduled to go up each year for the next few years? Obviously their VAT is lower though.

Slaphead07

I know this isn’t going to go down well with some you but I think it needs to be said.

A wine cellar is made up of carefully selected wines which should improve over time – say 5, 10, 15 years. Almost all supermarket wines are produced and bought for drinking now. Sticking them away in a quiet dark corner will not improve them significantly, if at all. Equally, taking the van to France does not increase your chances of happening upon wines that are suitable for laying down. The notion that a mediocre wine will somehow transform into something fantastic is very optimistic. You can of course get lucky but by and large a long term wine cellar requires a lot more work than that. Yes a wine will soften out and become more balanced but you could drink that wine today if you spend a few euros more. Does it make sense to store wine for 5 + years to save €2? I don’t think so. Use your storage space better by selecting wines which are good now and will are virtually guaranteed to improve. If you have sufficient storage space to do both then great.

You really need to talk to a wine merchant you can trust who knows what wines will improve over time and what ones are to be avoided. Price is no real indicator. Most wines will “close up” for a few years and unless you know from experience when best open it you could be opening something undrinkable. Less expensive wines provide a more satisfying investment. Certainly buying between €10 and €15 you should be able to buy wines that will deliver real improvements over 5 + years.

Don’t get me wrong… I’m all for laying down a good bottle for a few years but I only do it when I come across a wine I believe will improve over time.

I know 99% of you will disagree completely with me and I also understand why. But there’s a difference between having a collection of nice wines and starting a wine cellar.

johnnyskeleton

Slaphead07 wrote: »

I know this isn’t going to go down well with some you but I think it needs to be said.

A wine cellar is made up of carefully selected wines which should improve over time – say 5, 10, 15 years. Almost all supermarket wines are produced and bought for drinking now. Sticking them away in a quiet dark corner will not improve them significantly, if at all. Equally, taking the van to France does not increase your chances of happening upon wines that are suitable for laying down. The notion that a mediocre wine will somehow transform into something fantastic is very optimistic. You can of course get lucky but by and large a long term wine cellar requires a lot more work than that. Yes a wine will soften out and become more balanced but you could drink that wine today if you spend a few euros more. Does it make sense to store wine for 5 + years to save €2? I don’t think so. Use your storage space better by selecting wines which are good now and will are virtually guaranteed to improve. If you have sufficient storage space to do both then great.

You really need to talk to a wine merchant you can trust who knows what wines will improve over time and what ones are to be avoided. Price is no real indicator. Most wines will “close up” for a few years and unless you know from experience when best open it you could be opening something undrinkable. Less expensive wines provide a more satisfying investment. Certainly buying between €10 and €15 you should be able to buy wines that will deliver real improvements over 5 + years.

Don’t get me wrong… I’m all for laying down a good bottle for a few years but I only do it when I come across a wine I believe will improve over time.

I know 99% of you will disagree completely with me and I also understand why. But there’s a difference between having a collection of nice wines and starting a wine cellar.

I suppose it's not just about trying to get wines that will age well, part of the appeal is to have a large selection of wines on hand so that you can pick a nice one whenevr the mood strikes. I don't think we need to be too snobby as to whether such is called a wine cellar or just a collection.

Slaphead07

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I don't think we need to be too snobby as to whether such is called a wine cellar or just a collection.

Nothing to do with "snobby" at all. If you keep them separate your cellar won't get dipped into at 2am when you have mates/family around for drinkies.

mikep

mikep wrote: »

J
Also from d'Arenberg 2006 The twentyeight road Mourvedre, going to leave for around 5 more years...had one recently...really interesting but still a bit young..
Got some Tim Adams "The fergus" 2007 which I will also try to leave for 5 years or so...

Another update...All the Tim Adams got demolished...they don't have it any more in my local tesco, although the semillon is still on offer at the mo...and is highly regarded...as are most of Tim Adams wines..

Also now have only one 28 road left.....

Must put a lock on the door to my cellar/store/stash.....:rolleyes:

duckworth

mikep wrote: »

Another update...All the Tim Adams got demolished...they don't have it any more in my local tesco, although the semillon is still on offer at the mo...and is highly regarded...as are most of Tim Adams wines..

Also now have only one 28 road left.....

Must put a lock on the door to my cellar/store/stash.....:rolleyes:

The Tim Adams whites in Tescos are unbelievable. The Semillion and the Riesling are both incredible, with the Semillion being really special. I noticed they are selling the 09 and 10 mixed together - I've only tried the 09 Semillion.

It is usually 17€ but was reduced to 10 for May. If you availed of the 25% off 6 bottles last week, you were actually getting them for €7.50, which was the Wine Bargain of the year for me by a long shot.

I'd imagine they'd age beautifully too - if you like that aged white character (some don't).

Slaphead07

There is no point whatsoever in putting that semillion in a wine cellar. The Reisling maybe but I seriously doubt it. Keep the space for something worthwhile.

johnnyskeleton

Slaphead07 wrote: »

There is no point whatsoever in putting that semillion in a wine cellar. The Reisling maybe but I seriously doubt it. Keep the space for something worthwhile.

Why not? Are you saying that semillion can't age or that this particular wine can't? Have you tried and it turned to vinegar or what is the basis? I thought semillion wines could age reasonably well but then again I'm not mad into whites socant really comment.

Slaphead07

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Why not? Are you saying that semillion can't age or that this particular wine can't? Have you tried and it turned to vinegar or what is the basis? I thought semillion wines could age reasonably well but then again I'm not mad into whites socant really comment.

White wines generally don't age well. You really have to pick and choose what whites to lay down. Good (fairly expensive) well chosen Cotes Du Rhones, Loire Valley, sweet wines or Sancerre's might age well but most wines in supermarkets are for drinking now and will not improve with age. Quite the opposite in fact. Most mainstream whites have a shelf life of 6 years. Buy them, drink and enjoy them but putting them in a cellar is a waste of cellar space.

A simple rule of thumb... if the wine has a screwtop not even the maker thinks it's going to improve with age!

johnnyskeleton

Slaphead07 wrote: »

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Why not? Are you saying that semillion can't age or that this particular wine can't? Have you tried and it turned to vinegar or what is the basis? I thought semillion wines could age reasonably well but then again I'm not mad into whites socant really comment.

White wines generally don't age well. You really have to pick and choose what whites to lay down. Good (fairly expensive) well chosen Cotes Du Rhones, Loire Valley, sweet wines or Sancerre's might age well but most wines in supermarkets are for drinking now and will not improve with age. Quite the opposite in fact. Most mainstream whites have a shelf life of 6 years. Buy them, drink and enjoy them but putting them in a cellar is a waste of cellar space.

A simple rule of thumb... if the wine has a screwtop not even the maker thinks it's going to improve with age!

I think the prejudice against supermarket wines comes from a time when everything in them was cheap. But you can get some great wines in supermarkets. Odds are that a really expensive wine will age well and really cheap ones won't.

But why not try it? I'm not sure that wine experts really know what they're talking about, and obviously someone who sells or has a large collection of expensive wines in the cellar will look down on someone trying to age the cheaper wines. If you put a cheap wine away for a few years and it is a bit better, just the same, or runs the risk of turning to vinegar then what's the problem?

Obviously a screw cap isn't designed to age but were not really talking about that.

Martyn1989

Slaphead07 wrote: »

A simple rule of thumb... if the wine has a screwtop not even the maker thinks it's going to improve with age!

I don't know much about wine but I heard that the screw cap keeps the wine better? My understanding was that wines are stored on their sides to keep the cork moist which prevents the cork breathing and would screw caps not do that better?

the beer revolu

In my experience, Chablis and Reisling can benefit massively from bottle ageing.

Slaphead07

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I think the prejudice against supermarket wines comes from a time when everything in them was cheap. But you can get some great wines in supermarkets.

It's mostly mediocre or worse. You'd need to know what you're looking for or be very lucky.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I'm not sure that wine experts really know what they're talking about, and obviously someone who sells or has a large collection of expensive wines in the cellar will look down on someone trying to age the cheaper wines.

Well I'm no expert but there are some basic facts about wine. I don't "look down" on anyone trying to age cheaper wines but, as I've said in previous posts, you don't have to spend lots to get wine that is worth putting away. People are free to do what they want with their money and their cellar but it's important to point out some realities for others who might be considering a cellar.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Obviously a screw cap isn't designed to age but were not really talking about that.

Well we should talk about it. The wines mentioned above are all screwtop. They are hermetically sealed and have done all the aging they're going to do.

Slaphead07

the beer revolu wrote: »

In my experience, Chablis and Reisling can benefit massively from bottle ageing.

Some can but to varying degrees. You'd need to know the winemaker and previous vintages to judge.

Slaphead07

Martyn1989 wrote: »

My understanding was that wines are stored on their sides to keep the cork moist which prevents the cork breathing and would screw caps not do that better?

The cork is kept moist to prevent it drying out. It breaths just fine when moist! Screw caps seal the bottle so the wine cannot breath or mature. Fine for young red wines and most whites and fine for wines that are to be drunk soon.

johnnyskeleton

On a side note, it would be interesting to find out what factors do and do not affect the ageing of a wine. I've heard that
mainly it's the tannins breaking down that causes it, but from there most people jump to a well crafted wine will age well while a poorly crafted one won't. I mean, surely highly tanninic varietals eg Cabernet franc/sauvingnon will benefit from some ageing, even if they are cheaply made.

I got a good michael lynch 2006 in tesco for just over a tenner there a while ago. If aging mellows the tannins then I suspect it could be aged successfully for another few years.

johnnyskeleton

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Well we should talk about it. The wines mentioned above are all screwtop. They are hermetically sealed and have done all the aging they're going to do.

fair enough, I am not familiar with that particular wine. But why not just say that outright?

Slaphead07

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

fair enough, I am not familiar with that particular wine. But why not just say that outright?

I was addressing a post on that specific wine.

Slaphead07

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

..... what factors do and do not affect the ageing of a wine. I've heard that mainly it's the tannins breaking down that causes it....

It's really the other way around. The cork allows the wine to breath over time and this allows the tannins to soften out and integrate with the wine. Fruits can soften too and acids so it's a little more complex than just tannins.
Bear in mind that many whites can be laid down and they have no tannins at all.

johnnyskeleton

Slaphead07 wrote: »

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

..... what factors do and do not affect the ageing of a wine. I've heard that mainly it's the tannins breaking down that causes it....

It's really the other way around. The cork allows the wine to breath over time and this allows the tannins to soften out and integrate with the wine. Fruits can soften too and acids so it's a little more complex than just tannins.
Bear in mind that many whites can be laid down and they have no tannins at all.

Well exactly, either there are specific factors that help the chemical process or else it's just a question of saying good wine ages well, bad wine ages badly.

the beer revolu

Screw caps seal the bottle so the wine cannot breath or mature.

The wines mentioned above are all screwtop. They are hermetically sealed and have done all the aging they're going to do.

The concensus is that wines age just fine,if a little diferently, with screwcap closures. It is a myth that wines with screwcaps can't age. Being in the business, I expected you to know that, Slaphead. Google it.

johnnyskeleton

the beer revolu wrote: »

The concensus is that wines age just fine,if a little diferently, with screwcap closures. It is a myth that wines with screwcaps can't age. Being in the business, I expected you to know that, Slaphead. Google it.

Is it not more of a statement of intent? I always thought that wines that marketthemselves as a superior quality product would go for a cork rather than a screwtop, in much the same way as they would go for a bottle over a bag of wine.

the beer revolu

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Is it not more of a statement of intent? I always thought that wines that marketthemselves as a superior quality product would go for a cork rather than a screwtop, in much the same way as they would go for a bottle over a bag of wine.

Nope, many top end Aussie and American wines come in screwcaps. Just like corks, there are cheap crappy screwcaps and good quality ones - Stelvin closures being a top quality screw cap on many expensive US wines suitable for ageing. Experts claim that wine in screwcaps age more gracefully - I think they mean slower!

Padraig Mor

Curious Wines' blog touched on the screwcap debate recently:
http://www.curiouswines.ie/blog/2010/11/helping-put-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-cork-closures/
They reckon screwcaps are "undoubtedly the best closure available for wine today". Although they sell a lot of Oz stuff so maybe they're biased?....

Slaphead07

the beer revolu wrote: »

The concensus is that wines age just fine,if a little diferently, with screwcap closures. It is a myth that wines with screwcaps can't age.

Maybe you have a different definition of "concensus" to me. I don't know of anyone "in the business" who belives screwcaps allow wine to age well. There are of course better screwcaps available now but, fuddy duddy that I am, I see it more as marketing than good wine making practice.

Slaphead07

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Curious Wines' blog touched on the screwcap debate recently:
http://www.curiouswines.ie/blog/2010/11/helping-put-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-cork-closures/
They reckon screwcaps are "undoubtedly the best closure available for wine today". Although they sell a lot of Oz stuff so maybe they're biased?....

perhaps for wine "today" but not for the same wine in 5 - 10 years.

the beer revolu

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Maybe you have a different definition of "concensus" to me. I don't know of anyone "in the business" who belives screwcaps allow wine to age well. There are of course better screwcaps available now but, fuddy duddy that I am, I see it more as marketing than good wine making practice.

We'll have to agree to differ on that one.
I genuinely can't find any serious online claims that wine cannot age perfectly well with a good quality screwcap closure.
Agreed, there is reluctance among conservative consumers, particularly in France, to associate quality wine with screwcaps but that is changing.
To me the notion that quality wine that can be laid down can only come in corked bottles is as blinkered as the notion some people have that really high quality wine can only come from France.

johnnyskeleton

the beer revolu wrote: »

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Maybe you have a different definition of "concensus" to me. I don't know of anyone "in the business" who belives screwcaps allow wine to age well. There are of course better screwcaps available now but, fuddy duddy that I am, I see it more as marketing than good wine making practice.

We'll have to agree to differ on that one.
I genuinely can't find any serious online claims that wine cannot age perfectly well with a good quality screwcap closure.
Agreed, there is reluctance among conservative consumers, particularly in France, to associate quality wine with screwcaps but that is changing.
To me the notion that quality wine that can be laid down can only come in corked bottles is as blinkered as the notion some people have that really high quality wine can only come from France.

In a funny twist, the popular perception that French wine is of poor quality and overpriced is so pervasive that there is very good value in French wines ATM compared to new world wines.

But yeah, I think wine suffers more than beer and spirits in terms of popular perception. I think one has to apply the test of what do I like and what don't I like.

Slaphead07

the beer revolu wrote: »

I genuinely can't find any serious online claims that wine cannot age perfectly well with a good quality screwcap closure.

I'll fix that for ye right now

Wine will age behind a screwcap but not in the same way as behind a natural cork. Certainly not "perfectly well". It simply can't. A natural cork allows the wine to breath whereas a corkcrew (except the very best and far more expensive ones) hermetically seals the bottle.

There's big money behind telling the world that screwcaps are better. Millions have been spent getting that "click" just right. As I say for many wines screwcaps are fine but laying down such wines is a triumph of optimism (and marketing) over reality.