Abolish Seanad

Alias G

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In the past, when I've heard the line "The Irish electorate get what they deserve, they're politically immature and uneducated etc.", I've always stood up for them and explained that it's not the Irish electorate that are the problem, it's the Irish system which is the problem

Well...looks like I'm fcuking eating my own hat tonight.

What an arrogant statement.

Enjoylife

There is a generally held consensus, that the tipping point of a revolution, in a population, is just 10% of its electorate.

The reason for same, is that 10% is the infectious rate of dessemation of a 'new idea' or 'consciousness'.

Have we seen that critical mass yet, given that 60% are still apathetic?
I wonder, but I sense it building, nonetheless.

hmmm

Enjoylife wrote: »

I wonder, but I sense it building, nonetheless.

The electorate have just voted to retain the status quo, and worse, one of the most useless and inconsequential parts of the establishment. Where are you going thinking you're seeing an appetite for revolution.

zenno

That's good news. Now, the next time the government want us to vote on abolition of the Seanad, they can be more democratic about it and allow the people the choice to reform it.

Banjo String

hmmm wrote: »

The electorate have just voted to retain the status quo, .

Hopefully they reverse this trend in the locals so.

Enjoylife

hmmm wrote: »

The electorate have just voted to retain the status quo, and worse, one of the most useless and inconsequential parts of the establishment. Where are you going thinking you're seeing an appetite for revolution.

The polls indicated a two thirds majority, in favour of the first referendum, just two days before the vote.

Therefore, things changed. Rapid changes in either outlook, or awareness, in an electorate, intimates the use of the R word.

You don't need to be violent to be revolutionary, just ask Gandhi and Rev. Martin Luther King. You don't even need to be political. Alexander McQueen, John Lennon, and Picasso are examples.

In this context, Sen. David Norris could be cited as an example.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=igDPFA-3hAY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DigDPFA-3hAY%26feature%3Dyoutube_gdata_player

donalh087

Enjoylife wrote: »

The polls indicated a two thirds majority, in favour of the first referendum, just two days before the vote.

Therefore, things changed. [/url]

Or, indeed, the polls got it wrong....

roshje

Cork24 wrote: »

At lest the Seanad could have hold a bill or allow the President to have a bill sent to the Supreme Court.

If this bill was passed

Not only was the Seanad removed also the power of the Irish president would have be removed allowing any Irish government to pass a bill which , also saw the removing of any debate that they see fit..

So for all you dumb people out there that votes yes.. This would have mean


The government could have passed a bill with no Seanad to put a hold on it no debat in the house allowed on that bill they feel fit to pass and our president would be powerless to have it moved to the Supreme Court

next you will be seeing REDS under the bed

ressem

zenno wrote: »

That's good news. Now, the next time the government want us to vote on abolishion of the Seanad, they can be more democratic about it and allow the people the choice to reform it.

Afraid not. Any change to the constitution has to be using a referendum not a multichoice preferendum.

Otherwise the government doesn't have a history of asking the public anything.
The closest we have is those people taking part in the constitutional convention that pop up a thread on boards (which is appreciated btw).

The government by way of defending legislation often quotes those independent polls as though they were an accurate reflection on public opinion.
So it's funny when both they and Paddy Power get it so badly wrong. (9/1 for a No? Someone's laughing).

roshje

infosys wrote: »

The government, is elected by TD's who are elected by the voting public. The Seanad is elected by councillors who are elected by the people, also by the Taoiseach, who is elected by the TD's who are elected by the people, and finally the University senators who are elected by the people who have degrees. But all elected like the goveenment byr the people.[/QUOTE
neither my TD nor my councillor asked me who i wanted in the Seanad so how is that democracy ? more like a dictatorship

Enjoylife

donalh087 wrote: »

Or, indeed, the polls got it wrong....

That is a 'deviation' argument, in the realm of statistics.
Therefore, take that one up with Red-Sea polls.

http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/170847255, is the document referred to in the utube clip, for your reference.

Did you read it, Donal, or did you rely on that which arrived through your letterbox?

View

roshje wrote: »

neither my TD nor my councillor asked me who i wanted in the Seanad so how is that democracy ? more like a dictatorship

That is democracy. No one says they have to ask you. They don't have to ask you who you want then to elect as Taoiseach or Ceann Comhairle either. They are free to elect Joe Higgins as Taoiseach on Monday morning if they are so inclined. Enda might be upset though.

View

ressem wrote: »

The closest we have is those people taking part in the constitutional convention that pop up a thread on boards (which is appreciated btw).

Well, I'd guess the chances of the constitutional convention's work going anywhere has just dropped markedly. I can't see the government being in any rush to risk losing another referendum.

Dannyboy83

infosys wrote: »

So people who disagree with your view in a political issue are immature and uneducated. So because I voted no, I'm immature and uneducated.

I don't believe you made a mistake because you choose differently to me;
I believe you made a mistake because you voted AGAINST reform.

If the vote were to give the Senate real, undeniable, concrete power or to scrap it, then I would be guilty of voting against reform.

But the Senate is, and now will continue to be, an expensive vestigial organ of the state.

I voted No because I strongly believe in a two tier parliament.

Which wasn't on offer...nor will it be.

The continued existence of the whip ensures that the Dail will act as a rubber stamp for Cabinet-based government.

The senate cannot enforce accountability and will clearly will not be given the power to do so when the Dail itself cannot hold the executive to account.

I voted no because I want two different house to vote on removing a judge or president from office.
I voted no because I believe the cost of the senate is worth it even for the little power it has.
I voted no because I believe that populist ideas can often be silly in the cold light of day. If I'm immature and uneducated because I voted no, I'm proud to be so.

It would be just fighting the battle after it's already lost if I were to respond or enquire why you feel the senate is worth it, so instead I thank you for you opinion and hope that by some miracle we can force those who hold the reins of power to relinquish some, not a great track record of this in Ireland, and
establish a genuine two-tier parliament.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

roshje wrote: »

infosys wrote: »

The government, is elected by TD's who are elected by the voting public. The Seanad is elected by councillors who are elected by the people, also by the Taoiseach, who is elected by the TD's who are elected by the people, and finally the University senators who are elected by the people who have degrees. But all elected like the goveenment byr the people.[/QUOTE
neither my TD nor my councillor asked me who i wanted in the Seanad so how is that democracy ? more like a dictatorship

You elected them to make decisions, do they call to your door asking which road they should repair and which pothole they should fill? No they don't because you passed that power to them in a democratic election in the same way you passed to them the choice of which potential Senator they should vote for.

Dannyboy83

ressem wrote: »

The great thing for commentators about having 2 referendums on the same day that go opposite ways is that we have a basis to reject statements like this.

The government seemed able to convince (with very little effort) a substantial portion of the electorate that the appeals court had value, at an added cost of 3 million or so per year. That suggests that they were available to be convinced by the Seanad removal argument.

Perhaps the arguments put to the public to support a yes were considered to be unconvincing?

Perhaps, but bear in mind that Fine Gael ran with the idea of scrapping the senate in their mandate and they won by a landslide victory.

Of course, they also ran with the idea of making Irish optional at Leaving Cert, but we failed to see reform there also.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of what has actually changed since FF left office and the coalition entered.

plus ça change...

roshje

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

roshje wrote: »

You elected them to make decisions, do they call to your door asking which road they should repair and which pothole they should fill? No they don't because you passed that power to them in a democratic election in the same way you passed to them the choice of which potential Senator they should vote for.

you see it one way i see it another way, its a proxy vote for a talk shop

donalh087

Enjoylife wrote: »

That is a 'deviation' argument, in the realm of statistics.
Therefore, take that one up with Red-Sea polls.

http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/170847255, is the document referred to in the utube clip, for your reference.

Did you read it, Donal, or did you rely on that which arrived through your letterbox?

Now now, no need to get nasty.

There were three polls in the last week and they all, broadly, gave 60/40 in favour of a yes vote. However, all three also claimed that 90% of people interviewed said they would vote. Clearly this did not happen. Clearly, again, the polls got this wrong. I don't think a huge number of people changed their mind in the last few days.

ressem

View wrote: »

Well, I'd guess the chances of the constitutional convention's work going anywhere has just dropped markedly. I can't see the government being in any rush to risk losing another referendum.

That's fine. Lets see them get the Dail and preferably also the Seanad working to the extent permitted by the constitution.

An off the top of the head notion would be that they...
Draft out the workflows for considering
money bills,
legislation of internal origin,
legislation of EU origin,

and how much time for consideration by the opposition to provide amendments.

They have this convention, the dail reform plan and the previous fairly conservative government + seanad reform plan + Zapone / Crown to pick and mix from.

And while waiting for the Dail to do it's bit, I intend to see whether it is possible to get any say in the Seanad nomination choice for my industry because the board damn well shouldn't be just throwing it to some FF councillor, even if there is no standout candidate with actual "knowledge and experience of the industry".
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/nominating_bodies/20130325.pdf

Harry Angstrom

It makes me laugh to hear some people going on about all these "powers" that the Seanad is theoretically supposed to have, when the fact of the matter is that it has only exercised these powers once in a very blue moon, given that the Government party of the day will always hold the balance of power. It was a cynical move by the senators in recent months to finally realise they had a quasi independent voice, but I'm sure they'll go back to the same old same old now that the stinking rotten crony house of wasters has been allowed to continue by a highly gullible electorate.

zenno

ressem wrote: »

Afraid not. Any change to the constitution has to be using a referendum not a multichoice preferendum.

Otherwise the government doesn't have a history of asking the public anything.
The closest we have is those people taking part in the constitutional convention that pop up a thread on boards (which is appreciated btw).

The government by way of defending legislation often quotes those independent polls as though they were an accurate reflection on public opinion.
So it's funny when both they and Paddy Power get it so badly wrong. (9/1 for a No? Someone's laughing).

OK, if there is another referendum on the Seanad, then the government can still give two options...Reform or abolish, problem solved and not multiple-choice.

Well, if it was voted yes earlier today to abolish the Seanad then that would be the end of it with it's head chopped off and done for, but with the no-vote, it at least gives options regarding a reform from government and the Irish people.

You can't reform something of which is dead.

jman0war

"Seanad Reform" is not part of the Programme for Government, therefore it will not happen.
Maybe after the next general election one of the parties will offer it, who knows.
But the given the track record of Seanad Reform, it looks like wishful thinking to me.

The people that voted No, voted to maintain the Status Quo.

Pro Hoc Vice

jman0war wrote: »

"Seanad Reform" is not part of the Programme for Government, therefore it will not happen.
Maybe after the next general election one of the parties will offer it, who knows.
But the given the track record of Seanad Reform, it looks like wishful thinking to me.

The people that voted No, voted to maintain the Status Quo.

Yes that is what I voted for, my view for years has been I want a strong independent Seanad, so my preferred options are 1 a reformed Seanad, 2 the status quo, I do not like the 3rd option at all, as its in my opinion bad for proper Government.

Sierra Oscar

jman0war wrote: »

"Seanad Reform" is not part of the Programme for Government, therefore it will not happen.

I wouldn't be so sure of that, the Taoiseach himself pretty much conceded yesterday that reform must now take place. There is a general consensus that it cannot continue in the manner that it currently operates.

It will be an own goal for FG if they allow FF & SF to put forward Seanad reform in their next election manifestos without FG having done much to reform the house itself despite the referendum result.

This referendum result has also given the Senators themselves a greater platform to call for reform.

aloyisious

So long as there's enough senior senators to block any attempt to "Dail-ize" the Seanad in any reformation plans, so it could end up with some form of "whip" being introduced, disrupting free thinking there. I'd imagine that that would be a secret desire in most party leaders hearts, to "corral" the senators.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Results.

Original Seanad map had errors. Revised map here: https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/275139.PNG

Dannyboy83

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-party-whip-fine-gael-five-a-side-1120758-Oct2013/?utm_source=facebook_short
“One cannot have instability”: Taoiseach rules out loosening the party whip

Well, there goes the senate reform.

Can we have a rerun like we do with all the EU referenda and scrap it?

An Coilean

zenno wrote: »

OK, if there is another referendum on the Seanad, then the government can still give two options...Reform or abolish, problem solved and not multiple-choice.

You can't do that, no matter which way people voted, the constitution would be changed. You have to have one of the options being to not change the constitution.

Like it or not, abolition has been rejected, any referendum on the seanad in the near future will have to be 'making x,y, and z change to the constitution to reform the seanad or leave it the way it is'.

PRAF

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Well, there goes the senate reform.

Can we have a rerun like we do with all the EU referenda and scrap it?

Was that article not talking about the use of the whip system in the Dail? What is the link to the Seanad?

Disappointing that Enda doesn't see the need for any change to the current whip system. There seems to be a rising upswell in support for at least some relaxation of the system.

Funnily enough, I don't hear those champions of "reform" in FF calling for a change of the whip system.

raymon

PRAF wrote: »

Was that article not talking about the use of the whip system in the Dail? What is the link to the Seanad?

Disappointing that Enda doesn't see the need for any change to the current whip system. There seems to be a rising upswell in support for at least some relaxation of the system.

Funnily enough, I don't hear those champions of "reform" in FF calling for a change of the whip system.

Willie ( come here till I tell you a lie) o Dea was arguing for relaxation of the whip system on VB last night.

Was hard to know if he was telling more lies.