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Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

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  • #1052
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    rarnes1 wrote: »
    How do you know he didn't? He may well have. We don't know tbf.

    That goes to the heart of this issue. We are feeding off of scraps. We don't know what the FA investigation has found, nor do we know what Suarez or Evra know. For all we know he may well have reached out to Evra. I imagine he has been prevented from speaking to the English media about the issue.


  • #1053
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    If it was being offically investigated I wouldn't want to risk anything and would just keep quiet as much as I'd like to explain my side. I think trying to contract Evra while the FA are investigatign would be very foolish.

    How do you explain last week's quotes from Suarez that were posted here where he spoke to Uruguayan media about the case, saying he called Evra "something his friends call him"? He didn't seem too anxious to keep quiet then...


  • #1054
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    So you think it's acceptable for me to accuse any player of rascism and then claim you can see it on TV cameras? Bollox. If the man is so clearly saying that it should be in the footage why not use the word should? Instead he uses a sentence that gives the impression there is definite evidence against Suarez, very poor form from Evra.

    Show me where I said it is acceptable to accuse any player of racism? Honestly there is no point continuing this discussion if you are going to pull out such nonsense.

    Why did he not use the word "should"? Maybe he was caught up in the moment. Maybe as a French speaker, his English suffers when he is emotional. Maybe his English is not fantastic and he sometimes chooses incorrect words. After all you as a native speaker clearly misunderstood what I had written down by claiming I was saying it was acceptable for any player to accuse somebody of racism. So imagine being a non-native speaker.

    Or maybe, like many people he does not always choose the perfect words when speaking aloud. It is almost a cliché to dismiss post match interviews. People often throw out poor turns of phrases in such situations.


  • #1055
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    flahavaj wrote: »
    How do you explain last week's quotes from Suarez that were posted here where he spoke to Uruguayan media about the case, saying he called Evra "something his friends call him"? He didn't seem too anxious to keep quiet then...


    Maybe he got sick of the FA pissing about? Either way that it's not like him explainging him to the Uruguayan media has suddenly put all of this to bed and everything is blown over. If he did use the word nergito and explained that in the media we'd simply have another cluster **** of "is it rasicst or not". He's much better off saying nothing at all and just waiting for the FA to decide on it.

    parker kent wrote: »
    Show me where I said it is acceptable to accuse any player of racism? Honestly there is no point continuing this discussion if you are going to pull out such nonsense.

    Why did he not use the word "should"? Maybe he was caught up in the moment. Maybe as a French speaker, his English suffers when he is emotional. Maybe his English is not fantastic and he sometimes chooses incorrect words. After all you as a native speaker clearly misunderstood what I had written down by claiming I was saying it was acceptable for any player to accuse somebody of racism. So imagine being a non-native speaker.

    Or maybe, like many people he does not always choose the perfect words when speaking aloud. It is almost a cliché to dismiss post match interviews. People often throw out poor turns of phrases in such situations.


    You don't seem to see any problem with Evra calling someone a rascist and then claiming to have evidence when there is none. If he miss spoke then he should have spoken up soon after the interview and clarified his position instead of giving the impression he had evidence Suarez accused him of racial abuse and basically condemning Suarez of guilt almost immediately. I thought the whole issue was handled terribly by Evra.


  • #1056
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    rarnes1 wrote: »
    Suarez - words of a racist?

    In fairness, they are the words of a PR officer.


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  • #1057
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Maybe he got sick of the FA pissing about? Either way that it's not like him explainging him to the Uruguayan media has suddenly put all of this to bed and everything is blown over. If he did use the word nergito and explained that in the media we'd simply have another cluster **** of "is it rasicst or not". He's much better off saying nothing at all and just waiting for the FA to decide on it.

    I think his reticence to explain himself has caused every bit as much if not more of a cluster f*ck than if he had tried to do so. And if he had tried to at least he would get credit for himself for doing what any normal person would want to do.


  • #1058
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    You don't seem to see any problem with Evra calling someone a rascist and then claiming to have evidence when there is none. If he miss spoke then he should have spoken up soon after the interview and clarified his position instead of giving the impression he had evidence Suarez accused him of racial abuse and basically condemning Suarez of guilt almost immediately. I thought the whole issue was handled terribly by Evra.

    Hmm, so here you expect Evra to clarify his position to the media but in your previous post make a very compelling argument as to why Suarez shouldn't do exactly the same. Why the differing standards?


  • #1059
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    parker kent wrote: »
    You do realise that is Evra assuming it would be on camera? It is mildy ridiculous to have such a minor sematic point argued to death. Given that Evra was speaking immediately after the game at a time when he could not possibly have watched any footage, it is extremely sensible to interpret his sentence the way I and others have interpreted it.

    Look at that quote again:



    That is clearly a man saying that there are cameras at the game and that it should be in the footage. He is clearly not saying "I have seen the footage" or whatever other BS you want to claim.

    Anyway, I have to agree with #15 that there is a pretty shockingly casual attitude to racism. I don't use this comparison lightly, but it is really reminiscent of blaming the victim of an assault for there not being conclusive evidence. Now it may not have happened, but whilst there is the possibility that it did happen, people should surely be more sensitive.

    Clubs often have recordings ready after the match, managers looking at offside decisions, that type of thing. It's perfectly reasonable to assume he may have seen some footage, it wouldn't take that long as he'd know the time he said it.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1060
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    flahavaj wrote: »
    I think his reticence to explain himself has caused every bit as much if not more of a cluster f*ck than if he had tried to do so. And if he had tried to at least he would get credit for himself for doing what any normal person would want to do.

    He probably did want to give a full explaniation, which he did to the FA by the way, but was most likely advised not to give set up a press conference and tell everything to the media. Considering the FA have told Terry not to saying about his case, they probably told Suarez the same.
    flahavaj wrote: »
    Hmm, so here you expect Evra to clarify his position to the media but in your previous post make a very compelling argument as to why Suarez shouldn't do exactly the same. Why the differing standards?


    Because one person has made false accusations/assumptions against someone that can and is massively damaging to a person, I think it's only fair the person who makes those comments retract/clarify them asap.


  • #1061
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    He probably did want to give a full explaniation, which he did to the FA by the way, but was most likely advised not to give set up a press conference and tell everything to the media. Considering the FA have told Terry not to saying about his case, they probably told Suarez the same.

    Then he directly defied them by speaking to the Uruguayan media....
    Because one person has made false accusations/assumptions against someone that can and is massively damaging to a person, I think it's only fair the person who makes those comments retract/clarify them asap.

    Lets not forget that one person has also used a term towards another that at the very best (from their POV) bear a remarkable similarilty to a racial slur. I think its only fair to all concerned that those comments are clairified too.


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  • #1062
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    He probably did want to give a full explaniation, which he did to the FA by the way, but was most likely advised not to give set up a press conference and tell everything to the media. Considering the FA have told Terry not to saying about his case, they probably told Suarez the same.

    Acceptable. But why did he speak to the Uruguayan media?
    Because one person has made false accusations/assumptions against someone that can and is massively damaging to a person, I think it's only fair the person who makes those comments retract/clarify them asap.

    So the FA directive to say nothing (a directive that you speak about in the very same post as this) has seemingly disappeared now when we are talking about Evra? Should victims of a crime have to run a media gauntlet proving why there should be a police investigation?


  • #1063
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    flahavaj wrote: »
    Acceptable. But why did he speak to the Uruguayan media?

    Lets not forget that one person has also used a term towards another that at the very best (from their POV) bear a remarkable similarilty to a racial slur. I think its only fair to all concerned that those comments are clairified too.


    I've no idea why he spoke to the Uruguayan media.

    parker kent wrote: »
    So the FA directive to say nothing (a directive that you speak about in the very same post as this) has seemingly disappeared now when we are talking about Evra? Should victims of a crime have to run a media gauntlet proving why there should be a police investigation?

    Well it disappeared for Evra as soon as he opened his mouth to the media in the first place. Who's running a media gauntlet proving there is a police investigation, I'm not understanding that point. Generally people who want a police investigation report it directly to the police, not go crying to the media. If talking about police investigations I'm not even sure a trial would be held after Evra predjudicial comments abouts it being on camera.


  • #1064
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    flahavaj wrote: »
    Will those Liverpool fans who accused Evra of lying now admit they were wrong?

    Will they admit that Evra had a right to be offended given that what was said to him sounds remarkably like a common racial slur?

    I'm overwhelmed by the clamour to answer these two simple questions btw.


  • #1065
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Who's running a media gauntlet proving there is a police investigation, I'm not understanding that point. Generally people who want a police investigation report it directly to the police, not go crying to the media. If talking about police investigations I'm not even sure a trial would be held after Evra predjudicial comments abouts it being on camera.

    It is a relatively simple comparison. I am comparing your wish for Evra to explain himself to that of a victim of a crime having to explain why a crime should be investigated. I'm obviously not talking about Evra and a police investigation.


  • #1066
    redzerdrog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭redzerdrog


    Holy **** this thread is painfull so many law experts, media experts and languistic experts basically being as padantic as possible without even having a real opinion on the matter.


  • #1067
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    redzerdrog wrote: »
    Holy **** this thread is painfull so many law experts, media experts and languistic experts basically being as padantic as possible without even having a real opinion on the matter.

    Sorry it is actually spelt pedantic :pac::pac::pac:

    For the irony deficient, this is a joke


  • #1068
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    parker kent wrote: »
    It is a relatively simple comparison. I am comparing your wish for Evra to explain himself to that of a victim of a crime having to explain why a crime should be investigated. I'm obviously not talking about Evra and a police investigation.



    A victim of a crime would never go to the media in the first place. I do think if someone makes a statement that turns out to be not true, or isn't clarified fully they should be expected to clarify it. I don't think it's that radical a view.


  • #1069
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    So your talking about the victim of crime having to explain why there should be a investigation but not a police investigation? Okay.

    OK I'll say this slowly....

    I compared the case we are talking about with that of a crime victim.
    You want Evra to explain/clarify why there should be an investigation.
    I compared this to a crime victim having to explain why there should be a police investigation.
    The crime victim in my example is not Patrice Evra as they are an example used for illustrative purposes.
    That means that Patrice Evra is not the crime victim explaining why there should be a police investigation.
    Hence I am not talking about a real world police investigation. It was a comparison between a ridiculous fake situation and the real world incident.
    I did this to highlight the ridiculous nature of your post. You want the victim (Evra) to explain why it should be investigated by the FA.

    Got it?


  • #1070
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    When did I say Evra should explain why there should be an investigation?


  • #1071
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    When did I say Evra should explain why there should be an investigation?

    If you read the posts where this nonsense started, you will again see that I am using the police investigation as an example. You have said that Evra needs to retract or clarify his statement. Being asked to clarify his statement is in effect having to explain why there should be an investigation.
    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Because one person has made false accusations/assumptions against someone that can and is massively damaging to a person, I think it's only fair the person who makes those comments retract/clarify them asap.
    So the FA directive to say nothing (a directive that you speak about in the very same post as this) has seemingly disappeared now when we are talking about Evra? Should victims of a crime have to run a media gauntlet proving why there should be a police investigation?


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  • #1072
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    He should have retracted the statement "You can see him telling me this one word at least 10 times" because he unfairly implied that he had actually evidence of it. Whether a lie or incorrect assumption for me to say that and not clarify it is very poor form. Asking him to clarify that is in no way asking him to explain why it should be investigated.


  • #1073
    monkey9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,337 ✭✭✭✭monkey9


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/nov/15/chelsea-racial-abuse-daniel-sturridge


  • #1074
    SlickRic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,642 ✭✭✭✭SlickRic


    flahavaj wrote: »
    I'm overwhelmed by the clamour to answer these two simple questions btw.

    i don't know which specific posters you're talking about, but you're not guardian of the thread, and people don't have to answer to you.

    just like I'm not going to make the odd United fans who called Suarez a racist ask me to apologise.


  • #1075
    Pro. F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    niallo27 wrote: »
    No your posts are stupid, what are you ****en 10.

    It is not childish to point out that the arguments you are using are idiotic.


  • #1076
    Will I Amnt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,222 ✭✭✭✭Will I Amnt


    SlickRic wrote: »
    flahavaj wrote: »
    I'm overwhelmed by the clamour to answer these two simple questions btw.

    i don't know which specific posters you're talking about, but you're not guardian of the thread, and people don't have to answer to you.

    just like I'm not going to make the odd United fans who called Suarez a racist ask me to apologise.
    Thing is its a very very odd United fan that implied Suarez was a racist.
    The vast majority of Liverpool fans had labelled Evra a liar instantly.

    First off,when some people were talking about Suarez saying the N word it was categorically denied by everyone regardless of evidence.
    Then it was suggested it could have been Negro which still looked bad,that was denied.
    Now we have a less clearer word which has an innocent meaning aswel as an insulting meaning and Liverpool fans are all over it, happy to believe he used it innocently,all the while we still don't have any new evidence,just one mans word over another,as it's been all along.


  • #1077
    SlickRic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,642 ✭✭✭✭SlickRic


    cambo2008 wrote: »
    The vast majority of Liverpool fans had labelled Evra a liar instantly.

    nope, you'll find that most didn't brand him a liar instantly, but when Evra said the abuse was brazen and done 10 times, then fans had a right to question the validilty of that argument.

    most Liverpool fans simply say that they'd like to see this evidence.

    if he can't, between witnesses and camerawork, well then the question must be asked as to whether Evra is telling the truth.

    none of that is irrational or the wrong way to go about things.


  • #1078
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    cambo2008 wrote: »
    Thing is its a very very odd United fan that implied Suarez was a racist.
    The vast majority of Liverpool fans had labelled Evra a liar instantly.

    .

    Really ?


  • #1079
    Will I Amnt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,222 ✭✭✭✭Will I Amnt


    rarnes1 wrote: »
    cambo2008 wrote: »
    Thing is its a very very odd United fan that implied Suarez was a racist.
    The vast majority of Liverpool fans had labelled Evra a liar instantly.

    .

    Really ?
    From people's opinions on here and people I've been talking to in general.......yes,really.


  • #1080
    Mr Alan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    SlickRic wrote: »
    nope, you'll find that most didn't brand him a liar instantly, but when Evra said the abuse was brazen and done 10 times, then fans had a right to question the validilty of that argument.

    most Liverpool fans simply say that they'd like to see this evidence.

    if he can't, between witnesses and camerawork, well then the question must be asked as to whether Evra is telling the truth.

    none of that is irrational or the wrong way to go about things.

    Particularly when the player in question says it can be seen clearly on camera.


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  • #1081
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    cambo2008 wrote: »
    From people's opinions on here and people I've been talking to in general.......yes,really.

    By vast majority I assume you mean 80% + think Evra is lying.

    I'd say you are far off them mark.

    Generalisations are the the fathers of all fúckups.


This discussion has been closed.
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