Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

Blatter · 22-12-2011 04:33AM

daithijjj wrote: »

When the full written reasons come out we will know, but only then.

Anyway, im sure there are folk in high places who know exactly what is going on and there is some drip feeding going on. Henry Winter is saying that the reasons wont come out until mid Jan now apparently.

And also, the 'sudaca' reference has travelled and has been referred to today by the Sports Director for the Uruguayan Government.

http://www.insidefutbol.com/2011/12/21/uruguayan-government-offers-support-to-luis-suarez/54891/

Yep, we'll have to wait until the official report to come out to see exactly what went down.

Although you'd have to admit that it would be inconceivable that Evra has admitted calling Suarez a 'sudaca' and has not been charged yet for it. I feel that would be even beyond The FA to ignore it.

DDC1990 · 22-12-2011 04:37AM

flahavaj wrote: »

Referring to skin colour is particulalry sensitive though Al, you know that. When its done in a heated argument its bound to inflame things and anyone who does so must know a sh*tstorm will ensue.

Referring to being a South American isn't.

Wait so saying Evra is black is racism, because it could have been said in a negative way.

However calling Suarez South American (thereby referring to his Race/Nationality) is grand... even though it was said in a nagative way.

And you have the nerve to sh1te on about Liverpool fans being hypocrites, and the club going down the drain.

:rolleyes:

daithijjj · 22-12-2011 04:42AM

Blatter wrote: »

Yep, we'll have to wait until the official report to come out to see exactly what went down.

Although you'd have to admit that it would be inconceivable that Evra has admitted calling Suarez a 'sudaca' and has not been charged yet for it. I feel that would be even beyond The FA to ignore it.

Evra has admitted to abusing Suarez off his own back, severity of that is yet to be made public. The stupidity/naivety of footballers should never be underestimated. As for the FA, and their procedures, you dont need to go far to find most managers discrediting them, for example, David Moyes calling the diciplinary procedure a "kangaroo court". Lets see what happens, plenty to run yet i think. Call me a cynic, but i wouldnt put it past the FA to issue a punishment that suits the England team in regards to Terry.

Blatter · 22-12-2011 05:12AM

Just back to the verdict on Suarez and having a look at Paul Goulding QC who was on the panel. Here's a list of the other cases he's worked on;

Sheffield Utd FC v The Premier League
Acted for the Premier League in the arbitration commenced by Sheffield Utd FC over the “Tevez Affair”.

Fulham FC v Tigana [2004] EWHC 2585 QB; [2005] EWCA Civ 895 (CA)
Appeared for Jean Tigana in his successful claim following his sacking as Fulham’s manager.

And also advised a number of Premier League clubs, and other football bodies, chaired FA Appeal Boards and advised individual players. These cases have concerned contractual disputes, the application of the Bosman ruling, competition law, restraint of trade, crowd trouble, and general employment matters. Qualified FA Coach.

Here are some of the other cases he's covered;

Reading FC v Pardew

Hendry v World Snooker [2002] ECC 8

Modahl v British Athletics Federation (House of Lords, 1999)

And here's a few discrimination cases he's been involved in;

Appeared for Lehman Brothers in defending age discrimination claim based on provisions in employee benefit scheme restricting entitlements to those over a certain age or whose combined age and seniority satisfied a certain threshold.

Appeared for Tradition in defending sex, race and religious belief discrimination claims. Appeal concerned territorial jurisdiction where claimants made claims of discrimination in respondent's Paris office before moving to its London office.

Appeared for Santander (formerly Abbey National) in successfully resisting sex discrimination and whistleblowing claims brought by former employee. This EAT decision upheld claim to without prejudice privilege in discrimination cases.

And here is what the Chambers UK 2012 have had to say about him;

Paul is in the ‘Star’ ranking in Chambers UK 2012 for Employment. He is ‘a leading silk at the very top of his game.’ His ‘extraordinary eye for detail, technical excellence and strategic mind’ make him ‘the number-one choice for complex, high-profile disputes in the employment field.’ He is renowned for being extremely hard-working and ‘just wants to win for his clients.’ One source adds: ‘He is like a machine. He piles through the work’.” Paul is also ranked in the Sports area and regarded as “one of the go-to practitioners for sports employment cases.

http://www.blackstonechambers.com/people/barristers/paul_goulding_qc.html

The guy is quite evidently no mug, and I do find it hard to believe he helped deliver a guilty verdict in such a high profile and landmark case without having sufficient and convincing evidence to do so.

cournioni · 22-12-2011 08:45AM

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, and Evra has a history of unreliable evidence to the same FA who accepted his word.

Please do go on about the clubs history? Its a pretty big claim worthy of exactly posting what you mean.

Please explain this "history" of unreliable evidence. I think you'll find that you have to accuse someone of something in the first place.

When has your club ever accepted that they've done wrong? I'm not going to get into the details of it, as some of it has been done over and over and would only take this thread off topic.

cournioni · 22-12-2011 08:49AM

DDC1990 wrote: »

Wait so saying Evra is black is racism, because it could have been said in a negative way.

However calling Suarez South American (thereby referring to his Race/Nationality) is grand... even though it was said in a nagative way.

And you have the nerve to sh1te on about Liverpool fans being hypocrites, and the club going down the drain.

:rolleyes:

Oh yes, because South Americans do have a history of oppression from the rest of the world. That is like being offended for being called a European. Have a word with yourself and stop trying to get into technicalities to try and prove a point.

Ordinary man · 22-12-2011 08:53AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

You pretending they were intentionally started by a Liverpool employee is pathetic. The 'he's made false racist accussations before' line was peddled out way before that, here & elsewhere.

Likely the fella just made a mistake & passed on the same nugget that was everywhere online already.

Made a mistake - LOL. The way lfc and their employees have gone about this case has been disgraceful. Even the public display before the match was ott and cringeworthy.

#15 · 22-12-2011 09:04AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Context is everything.

After weeks of you playing dumb about words like black and negrito and acting like there is no possible way they could be offensive - and not forgetting your mini campaign to find out what word you can use to acceptably address black people - the penny has finally dropped with you that context is the most important thing.

Well done.

Leiva · 22-12-2011 09:12AM

Might be an idea to put this thread on ice again and suspend it until mid January when the evidence is released cause it's starting to do full circle again .

#15 · 22-12-2011 09:18AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

You pretending they were intentionally started by a Liverpool employee is pathetic. The 'he's made false racist accussations before' line was peddled out way before that, here & elsewhere.

Likely the fella just made a mistake & passed on the same nugget that was everywhere online already.

The fúcking hypocrisy of this^^^

The guy smears Evra with inaccurate claims and it's just a mistake.

What happened to your pet hobby of being against false allegations? That little bugbear of yours that you pursued with such vigour?

And what about your previous stances towards
- mistakes
- unfounded allegations
?

A reminder of your intolerance towards it all.

Mr Alan wrote: »

The allegation should have been made to the FA - he shouldn't have run to the media at the same time making statements that I think are untrue

Mr Alan wrote: »

He can't afford to be mistaken.

This is a very serious allegation he has levelled.

Mr Alan wrote: »

if Evra has told the world that evidence exists which does not, he should be held accountable for frivilous accusations of such severity

Those comments all invalid now that they can be applied to some employees of LFC? How can you so easily dismiss it as a mistake, when you were so aggressive in your reaction to mistakes just a few short weeks ago?

Like the whole 'context' thing, has the penny finally dropped?

Mr Alan wrote: »

Misinformation being put into the public domain by the accuser in this instance is very important in my view & as brings the credibility of his version of events into question.

But not when it's LFC putting misinformation into the public domain?

These kind of accusations have actually long been a pet hate of mine. Particuarly in cases of rape & racism, as once they are out there, they are near impossible to stop.

But not really a pet hate when it's just LFC putting out misleading info about Evra?

I was very critical of Man Utd over the Chelsea affair a couple of seasons ago as I felt that they were trying to detract from the fracas their players were involved in by introducing the race card to the equation & thereby muddying the waters.

But you don't mind LFC muddying by the waters with delirious statements?

This is some minefield you have created for yourself.

Pro. F · 22-12-2011 09:23AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

He [Evra] did however tell lies & make false accusations in an effort to fool the tribunal and get off. This is what Liverpool is referencing.

Mr Alan wrote: »

You pretending they were intentionally started by a Liverpool employee is pathetic. The 'he's made false racist accussations before' line was peddled out way before that, here & elsewhere.

Likely the fella just made a mistake & passed on the same nugget that was everywhere online already.

No. Liverpool, through their employee on twitter, falsely claimed that Evra had a past of lying about racial abuse. The employee, who works in the media, still represents the club when he talks in the media for himself. So what he says reflects directly on the club. What he said was a disgusting lie. There is an onus on the club after that to not perpetuate that lie. By all means refer to Evra's previous unreliable evidence, but make double sure that they are clear it was not unreliable evidence about racist abuse, because their employee played a big part in perpetuating that particular lie. LFC did not bother to make the distinction in their official statement.

First an employee of theirs spreads false and malicious rumours of Evra faking multiple racism claims, then their official statement talks ambiguously about Evra's previous unreliable evidence. That is a disgusting act from the club and if you weren't biased you would be ashamed of them.

flahavaj wrote: »

Referring to skin colour is particulalry sensitive though Al, you know that. When its done in a heated argument its bound to inflame things and anyone who does so must know a sh*tstorm will ensue.

Referring to being a South American isn't.

Yes it is. There is a definite air of superiority from the Spanish towards the Latin Americans and there is a definite sensitivity about using Latin America in the context of an insult. It may not be as bad as racial abuse, but that is irrelevant. It's still unacceptable.

doc_17 · 22-12-2011 09:23AM

flahavaj wrote: »

Blatter wrote: »

Looks like we might not be seeing the end of this anytime soon...

It would be travesty if LFC's official statment wasn't met with some kind of FA sanction.

A sanction for a club that disagrees with an FA statement?

Pro. F · 22-12-2011 09:26AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

1) we don't know if that's what was said
2) it negrito, I know you want it to be like 'nigger, but it's not. There's no need to link to the cereal brand, bars, vending machines etc, it's been done.

All those links to latin american culture and discussions of what is and is not seen as racist over there prove nothing.

There is a general denial that racism even exists in latin america and there is virtually no discourse on what is and is not racist, so if they don't find something racist it proves nothing.

Pro. F · 22-12-2011 09:39AM

manual_man wrote: »

Look i think it should have been dealt with in private, to start with. To promote some sort of reconciliation with the players. I have no problem with the FA mediating in this (again, privately), and dishing out bans as a result of what was proved / admitted etc. Even have a press conference (with the players involved) to give them a chance to apologize for their actions (where necessary), and generally bring awareness to the issue. THIS would be positive. I just find the way Evra has gone about it sneaky, underhand. And i dont like it

You are contradicting yourself. Either you want it done privately or you are happy about there being a press conference. You said before that it would have been better to be all done and dusted in five minutes, now you are agreeing with a ban being handed out. To quote the famous Pighead: You sir are a flip flopper!

Reporting racial abuse to the authorities is not sneaky and underhand in any way. It is expected that if you racially abuse somebody you will have to face the consequences from the authorities. There is no onus on the racially abused to deal directly with the abuser.

JimsAlterEgo · 22-12-2011 09:59AM

flahavaj wrote: »

Remember when LFC were a decent club?

Those were the days.

Most here cant remember that far back

RasTa · 22-12-2011 10:01AM

This should hopefully shutup the people claiming Evra has a history of claiming racial abuse, this is the only time it has happened. LFC have ****ed up royally with their statements on this issue imo

But Evra never cited racism in the Chelsea case, contrary to what you may have read elsewhere. Liverpool's extraordinary statement referred to Evra having no credibility and used as an example his "prior unfounded accusations". Except it was Mike Phelan, United's assistant manager, and Richard Hartis, the goalkeeping coach, who purported to hear the word "immigrant" used at Stamford Bridge. The story that it was Evra has gathered so much momentum now that even the usually reliable Press Association presented it as fact. Liverpool, they said, were referring to "racism allegations Evra made against Chelsea groundsman Sam Bethell, which were not proven".

The truth is something completely different. Likewise, Evra kept his distance when two deaf United fans complained they had lip‑read Steve Finnan making a racist remark to him during a Liverpool-United game in 2006. The simple truth is that Evra has complained of being racially abused only once before, and that was the 1-1 draw at Anfield on 15 October.

cournioni · 22-12-2011 10:10AM

RasTa wrote: »

This should hopefully shutup the people claiming Evra has a history of claiming racial abuse, this is the only time it has happened. LFC have ****ed up royally with their statements on this issue imo

Oh don't worry RasTa, they'll find a way around that to state their FACHTS. :pac:

JimsAlterEgo · 22-12-2011 10:24AM

doc_17 wrote: »

A sanction for a club that disagrees with an FA statement?

No A sanction for peddling inaccuracies

JimsAlterEgo · 22-12-2011 10:36AM

Liverpools behavior in this hit a new low last night, they now have their players involved. Their statement and this last night has shown utter contempt for the independent disciplinary process and has shown they have no respect for it.

Their blanket refusal to even accept the possibility that he used a racist world has shown such a blinkered approach that is now laughable.

They must be bordering on an FA charge for their behavior.

thegen · 22-12-2011 11:00AM

You have got to love the Liverpool bashing in this thread. It has gone from a discussion about racism to lets bash Liverpool. They have every right to defend their player. Most if not all other managers would do the same. I await the result of their appeal, it should be interesting if they have the evidence they claim to have.

I am a QPR supporter so have no reason to defend Liverpool.

I am worried though if reports re true that the FA Commission found Suarez guilty solely on Evras word. That will give all clubs/Players/Official a huge stick to beat them with.

If and only if Suarez is innocent of this, I feel for him as he is now a racist.
If he is guilty an 8 match ban is lenient.

Is it possible the supporters of other clubs are enjoying this and their postings have nothing to do with racism in football, surely not!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

gerryo777 · 22-12-2011 11:02AM

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

No A sanction for peddling inaccuracies

That would be evra so...

quarryman · 22-12-2011 11:08AM

#15 wrote: »

After weeks of you playing dumb about words like black and negrito and acting like there is no possible way they could be offensive - and not forgetting your mini campaign to find out what word you can use to acceptably address black people - the penny has finally dropped with you that context is the most important thing.

Well done.

bravo. post of the day good sir, and it's only 10am.

homerjay2005 · 22-12-2011 11:10AM

Blatter wrote: »

The guy is quite evidently no mug, and I do find it hard to believe he helped deliver a guilty verdict in such a high profile and landmark case without having sufficient and convincing evidence to do so.

you dont get it, he is a mug, its his fault and he is out to get saint luis the 8th. its a big conspiracy.

im surprised him in a united united jersey aint appeared yet. jaysus people give out about Warnock. Dogleash is 10 times the whinge that Warnock is and he has now turned the fans into a bunch of sheep.

its actually brilliant to be watching this. the sense of injustice is excellent. this will derail liverpools season, it already has.

niallo27 · 22-12-2011 11:10AM

thegen wrote: »

You have got to love the Liverpool bashing in this thread. It has gone from a discussion about racism to lets bash Liverpool. They have every right to defend their player. Most if not all other managers would do the same. I await the result of their appeal, it should be interesting if they have the evidence they claim to have.

I am a QPR supporter so have no reason to defend Liverpool.

I am worried though if reports re true that the FA Commission found Suarez guilty solely on Evras word. That will give all clubs/Players/Official a huge stick to beat them with.

If and only if Suarez is innocent of this, I feel for him as he is now a racist.
If he is guilty an 8 match ban is lenient.

Is it possible the supporters of other clubs are enjoying this and their postings have nothing to do with racism in football, surely not!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Your spot on there, most utd fans actually worry more about Liverpool fc that their own club. Fact as a great man once said.

homerjay2005 · 22-12-2011 11:14AM

RasTa wrote: »

This should hopefully shutup the people claiming Evra has a history of claiming racial abuse, this is the only time it has happened. LFC have ****ed up royally with their statements on this issue imo

one of 3 people wrote that statement -

1 - mr alan
2 - the clubs manager
3 - a member of rawk.

gerryo777 · 22-12-2011 11:14AM

Can anyone tell me this, why if Suarez is a 'racist' and made 'racist' comments to another player aren't the police involved???
John Terry seems to have said much the same thing and he's up before the courts in febuary!!
Thing is, everyone knows that suarez is not a racist, the FA, his ACCUSER, his teammates, his fans and I'd reckon most reasonable people on here.
The guy comes from a mixed race family, his grandfather was black for god's sake.
In Uruguay the term 'nigreto' means pal,friend or buddy.
The almost hysterical postings on here adds nothing to the debate about what is a serious issue.

RasTa · 22-12-2011 11:14AM

niallo27 wrote: »

Your spot on there, most utd fans actually worry more about Liverpool fc that their own club. Fact as a great man once said.

lol more nonsense, what have we got to worry about in the past 20 years? Anyway the only reason I'm having a dig a LFC is because they are trying to launch some sort of smear campaign to quote Daniel Taylor against Patrice with the statement they released after the charge. Disgraceful behavior

Paparazzo · 22-12-2011 11:16AM

thegen wrote: »

You have got to love the Liverpool bashing in this thread. It has gone from a discussion about racism to lets bash Liverpool. They have every right to defend their player. Most if not all other managers would do the same. I await the result of their appeal, it should be interesting if they have the evidence they claim to have.

I am a QPR supporter so have no reason to defend Liverpool.

I am worried though if reports re true that the FA Commission found Suarez guilty solely on Evras word. That will give all clubs/Players/Official a huge stick to beat them with.

If and only if Suarez is innocent of this, I feel for him as he is now a racist.
If he is guilty an 8 match ban is lenient.

Is it possible the supporters of other clubs are enjoying this and their postings have nothing to do with racism in football, surely not!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

It wasn't just evras word. It was suarez's to

Ordinary man · 22-12-2011 11:25AM

Using the word negrito to describe U.S. President Barack Obama got a Honduran government official into hot water in 2009.
Then-Foreign Minister Enrique Ortez was forced to resign after he called Obama a "negrito who does not know where (the Honduran capital of) Tegucigalpa is."

If the word is friendly, why did that politician have to resign? Surely that sets a precedent about whether or not the word is acceptable.

gerryo777 · 22-12-2011 11:30AM

Ordinary man wrote: »

Using the word negrito to describe U.S. President Barack Obama got a Honduran government official into hot water in 2009.
Then-Foreign Minister Enrique Ortez was forced to resign after he called Obama a "negrito who does not know where (the Honduran capital of) Tegucigalpa is."

If the word is friendly, why did that politician have to resign? Surely that sets a precedent about whether or not the word is acceptable.

Not acceptable in the great country that is America!
I wouldn't want to follow that country's example regarding what's right or wrong.

Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

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