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Constitutional Challenge in courts
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15-10-2011 10:24am#1If someone were to have proof that a Taoiseach and Minister in power in Ireland was acting outside of our constitution in the running of their department and our country does a citizen have a right to take it to court and if so how would they go about it? bear in mind if it was proven to be correct it would bring down a government and the only place to decide whether our country is being run in breach of the constitution would be in the courts so how would one challenge the government through the courts?Tagged:0
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Have a writ issued and serve it.0
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could a citizen issue the writ themself via the necessary court or would they have to hire a barrister....can an irish citizen represent themself in the high courts?0
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could a citizen issue the writ themself via the necessary court or would they have to hire a barrister....can an irish citizen represent themself in the high courts?
Yes. Just a citizen can perform surgery on him or herself, or do his or her own accounts, or build his or her own extension, or give himself or herself planning advice. The question is whether its good idea or not. If you can't do enough basic research to find out (a) how to sue or (b) if you can represent yourself its probably unlikely that you'll make a decent fist of bringing a constitutional challenge that would as, you say, "bring down the country". Good luck.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 13643
could a citizen issue the writ themself via the necessary court or would they have to hire a barrister....can an irish citizen represent themself in the high courts?
Yes, but it is such a complex area of law it is not recommended. It is not risk free; if the case is unsuccessful the person could be liable to pay the states costs.
In any event, there are many solicitors and barristers who would take on such a case on a no money down/ no foal no fee basis if there was a stateable point of law in it0 -
I wouldnt be suing the state so wouldnt be looking for damages, it would be to prove our government is knowingly ignoring 3 essential elements of our constitution that renders them ineligible to govern our country, I owouldnt proceed unless there was untenable proof in the form of the government ombudsman office agreeing with my complaint.......0
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Yes. Just a citizen can perform surgery on him or herself, or do his or her own accounts, or build his or her own extension, or give himself or herself planning advice. The question is whether its good idea or not. If you can't do enough basic research to find out (a) how to sue or (b) if you can represent yourself its probably unlikely that you'll make a decent fist of bringing a constitutional challenge that would as, you say, "bring down the country". Good luck.
I find your response typical of one the reasons I would be bringing the case in the first place....I wouldnt be doing it for me I would be doing it for the citizens of Ireland and thus I am asking for assistance from ordinary citizens that use these boards and tips based on their knowledge, we are all a team and the reason our country is in the state its in is because people like you make blaise unwarranted comments such as the above without firmly knowing the seriousness of the situation.....if you want to know the seriousness read article 6.1, 44.1 and the preamble to the irish constitution and when you read these artcicles I would say its most unlikely youll make a decent fist of understanding the severity of this ....
“ For the Glory of God and Honour of Ireland” “Dochum Gloire de agus onora na hEireann” - Last Line Irish Constitution0 -
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COPY OF COMPLAINT :
To: [deleted]
Subject: RE: Ombudsman Complaint part one
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:48:43 +0100
Hello
Many thanks for your response. I would like to proceed with a complaint about the Minister for Justices Office and the office of the Taoiseach, I contacted them with full details of who I am, asked them to assist, they acknowledged receipt of my emails, stated it was being dealt with but did not deal with it. This has serious ramifications for the people of Ireland and indeed the world. It affects our reputation globally. I have a court case coming up and will be calling the people below to verify they did indeed receive my emails and the contents of said emails will come out in court. I am telling the truth as difficult as it may be to comprehend. By not following through on my emails to their departments these offices and those in charge of them are in breach of Article 6.1 , 44.1 and the preamble to the Irish constitution and on this basis I would like to make my complaint.
2) Article 6.1 - "All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good".
3) Article 44:1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion
The preamble to the Irish Constitution : In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.
This is very serious for the people of Ireland and the Government have no right to hide this from the people any longer to protect their guilt.
Your office will have to download this free of charge : http://stores.lulu.com/2012 the book entitled The second coming part 1 and part 2 and the book entitled Gardai and Government : Judgement Day in order to verify I am telling the truth.
“ For the Glory of God and Honour of Ireland” “Dochum Gloire de agus onora na hEireann” - Last Line Irish Constitution
Many thanks
<snip>
Subject: email to the Taoiseach
To: [deleted]
From: [deleted]
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:09:42 +0100
Dear Mr. <snip>
I wish to acknowledge receipt of your copy email of 3 September, 2011 which
will be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
Yours sincerely,
Patricia Collins
Assistant Private Secretary
to the Taoiseach
Subject: email to the Taoiseach
To: [deleted]
From: [deleted]
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:41:15 +0100
Dear Mr. <snip>
I wish to acknowledge receipt of your copy email of 19 August, 2011 which
will be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
Yours sincerely,
Patricia Collins
Assistant Private Secretary
to the Taoiseach
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 10:15:06 +0100
> From: [deleted]
> To: [deleted]
> Subject: Fw: Fw: Garda Commissioner & Taoiseach
>
>
> I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email and confirm the matter is
> currently being dealt with.
>
> __________________
> Damien Brennan
> Private Secretary
Subject: Email to the Taoiseach
To: [deleted]
From: [deleted]
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:12:35 +0100
Dear Mr. <snip>
I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 12 August, 2011 which will
be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
Yours sincerely,
Patricia Collins
Assistant Private Secretary
to the Taoiseach
Subject: email to the Taoiseach
To: [deleted]
From: [deleted]
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 13:21:48 +0100
Dear Mr. <snip>
I wish to acknowledge receipt of your copy email of 9 August, 2011 which
will be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
Yours sincerely,
Patricia Collins
Assistant Private Secretary
to the Taoiseach
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:10:39 +0100
> From: [deleted]
> To: [deleted]
> Subject: Response
>
>
> Mr <snip>
> [deleted]
>
>
> 05 August, 2011
>
>
> Dear Mr <snip>,
>
> I am directed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence, Mr Alan
> Shatter, T.D., to refer to your recent correspondence.
>
> The Minister has sent a copy of your correspondence to the Garda
> authorities for their attention.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Damien Brennan
3 August, 2011
Dear Mr. <snip>,
I write to acknowledge receipt of your email dated 30 July, 2011 which I
will bring to the Minister's attention.
Yours sincerely,
Damien Brennan
_______________________
Private Secretary
to the Minister for Justice & Equality
To: [deleted]
> From: [deleted]
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:06:28 +0100
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you for your e-mail. All messages are given careful consideration
> and, where appropriate, a further response will issue. It would be very
> helpful if you would e-mail a response to this message giving your full
> postal address and telephone number. Thank you.
>
>
> Alan Shatter TD
> Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence
> 94, St. Stephen's Green
> Dublin 2
> Tel: 01 618 3911
Subject: email to the Taoiseach
> To: [deleted]
> From: [deleted]
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 18:30:43 +0100
>
>
> Dear Mr. <snip>
>
> I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 25 July, 2011 which will be
> brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
> Patricia Collins
> Assistant Private Secretary
> to the Taoiseach
Subject: email to the Taoiseach
> To: [deleted]
> From: [deleted]
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 18:30:43 +0100
>
>
> Dear Mr. <snip>
>
> I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 25 July, 2011 which will be
> brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
> Patricia Collins
> Assistant Private Secretary
> to the Taoiseach
Subject: email to the Taoiseach
> To: [deleted]
> From: [deleted]
> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:57:47 +0100
>
>
> Dear Mr. <snip>
>
> I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 16 July, 2011 which will be
> brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
> Patricia Collins
> Assistant Private Secretary
> to the Taoiseach
>
> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:57:01 +0100
> From: [deleted]
> To: [deleted]
> Subject: Acknowledgement letter
>
>
>
>
> 14 June, 2011
>
>
> Dear Mr. <snip>,
>
> I write to acknowledge receipt of your Letter dated 14 June, 2011 which I
> will bring to the Minister's attention.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
>
> Damien Brennan
> _______________________
> Private Secretary
> to the Minister for Justice & Equality
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:53:58 +0100
> From: [deleted]
> To: [deleted]
> Subject: Acknowledgement letter
>
>
>
>
> 14 June, 2011
>
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. <snip>,
>
> I write to acknowledge receipt of your email dated 14 June, 2011 which I
> will bring to the Minister's attention.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
> Damien Brennan
>
> _______________________
> Private Secretary
> to the Minister for Justice & Equality
>
Subject: recent correspondence to the Garda Commissioner.
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 08:58:15 +0100
From: [deleted]
To: [deleted]
Dear Mr <snip>,
I refer to your recent correspondence to the Commissioner dated 27/5/11, which has been forwarded to this office for attention.
In order to progress this matter and have a Local Inspector call to address your concerns I would be obliged if you could provide me with your address.
Yours Sincerely,
David Butler, Sergeant,
Office of the Assistant Commissioner,
Dublin Metropolitan Region.
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 14:00:30 +0100
> From: [deleted]
> To: [deleted]
> Subject: Acknowledgement Letter
>
>
>
> 2 June, 2011
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. <snip>,
>
> I write to acknowledge receipt of your email, which I will bring to the
> Minister's attention.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
> Damien Brennan
> _______________________
> Private Secretary
> to the Minister for Justice & Equality
>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:30:56 +0000
> From: [deleted]
> To: [deleted]
> Subject: Acknowledgement
>
>
> I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email and confirm the matter is
> currently being dealt with.
>
> __________________
> Private Secretary to Minister Dermot Ahern
> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:13:04 +0000
> From: [deleted]
> To: [deleted]
> Subject: Acknowledgement
>
>
>
>
> 18 November, 2009
>
>
>
>
> Dear Sir/Madam,
>
> I write to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 16 November, 2009 which
> I will bring to the Minister's attention.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
>
>
> _______________________
> Private Secretary
Subject: email to the Taoiseach
> To: [deleted]
> From: [deleted]
> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:46:52 +0000
>
>
> Dear Mr. <snip>
>
> I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 11 November, 2009 which will
> be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
> David King
> Assistant Private Secretary
> to the Taoiseach
Subject: email to the Taoiseach
> To: [deleted]
> From: [deleted]
> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:04:21 +0000
>
>
> Dear Mr. Hugheson
>
> I wish to acknowledge receipt of your copy email of 27 October, 2009 which
> will be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
> David King
> Assistant Private Secretary
> to the Taoiseach
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:46:23 +0100
> From: [deleted]
> To: [deleted]
> Subject: Acknowledgement
>
>
> I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email and confirm the matter is
> currently being dealt with.
>
> __________________
> Private Secretary to Minister Dermot Ahern
From: [deleted]
To: [deleted]; [deleted]
Subject: President Visit to Navan
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 18:51:06 +0100
Dear Mrs President,
I had a colour copy of the book The Second Coming for you to be presented with when you visit St Marys Navan to accept on behalf of the good people of Ireland the chosen ones for the Kingdom of God.
Unfortunately Sections from the Prophetic Book of Matthew had to be fulfilled which may sound strange but the Priests in Navan will tell you how they were fulfilled and why they are embarrassed they do not have the copy of the book to present to you.
Enjoy your visit to Navan Mrs President I have asked the Mother of God to answer the prayer you ask of her when you visit her in the church and she said she will so that you too will believe.
Blessings
JC II
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:15:51 +0100
> From: [deleted]
> To: [deleted]
> Subject: Acknowledgement
>
>
> I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email and confirm the matter is
> currently being dealt with.
>
> __________________
> Private Secretary to Minister Dermot Ahern
> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:17:51 +0100
> From: [deleted]
> To: [deleted]
> Subject:
>
>
>
> Mr. <snip>
>
> [deleted]
>
>
> 30th July, 2009.
>
>
> Dear Mr. <snip>,
>
> The Minister has asked me to thank you for your message of 19 July, 2009
> conveying your views on the issue of blasphemous libel, which required
> consideration in the context of the proposed reform of our defamation
> legislation.
>
> The Minister very clearly and extensively set out all of the relevant
> elements involved at the Dáil Committee Stage examination of the Defamation
> Bill 2006 on 20 May. He particularly drew attention to the nature of the
> constitutional obligation imposed on him. His preference at this time is to
> proceed with reform rather than postpone it to await a possible referendum.
>
>
> The Dáil Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights
> passed the Minister's amendment to the Defamation Bill regarding
> blasphemous libel at their meeting on 1 July, 2009. The Bill completed its
> passage through both Houses of the Oireachtas on 9 July.
>
> Following consideration by the Council of State on 22 July, the President
> signed the Defamation Bill into law on 23 July.
>
> While the Minister notes your views on this matter, he hopes that you can
> understand his position which is effectively dictated by the constitutional
> obligation and the advice in this regard by successive Attorneys General.
> By way of a more extensive explanation, he has asked me to attach a copy of
> his intervention before the Dáil Committee.
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> (See attached file: Ahern speech 20 May 2009.doc)
> _____________________
> Mr. Barry O'Donnell,
> Private Secretary.
To: [deleted]
Subject: RE: Ombudsman Complaint part one
From: [deleted]
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:16:02 +0100
Dear Mr <snip>
As previously advised the Ombudsman may investigate complaints against Government Departments and Offices, Local Authorities, the Health Service Executive, An Post and bodies within the remit of the Disability Act, 2005. The Ombudsman's Act, 1980 does not provide for the examination of complaints concerning other Ombudsman Offices.
In relation to your list of bodies that you are looking for information on how to go about making a claim against. The Ombudsman may investigate complaints concerning the administrative actions of Government Departments including the Department of Justice and also the Department of the Taoiseach. The Garda Ombudsman, the Press Ombudsman, the Broadcasting Authority, the DPP and the Attorney General are all outside the remit of this Office. Therefore, we cannot investigate complaints relating to the administrative actions of these bodies. I would also like to advise you that it is not a function of the Office of the Ombudsman to provide information or an advisory service in relation to complaint making concerning public bodies that are outside remit.
I trust this clarifies the matter for you.
Regards
Iris Kilbey
Office of the Ombudsman0 -
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:16:09 +0100
Subject: Enda Kenny & Ireland in Constitutional Crisis
From: [email]
To : [/email]news@rte.ie
I can confirm the complaint made to Government Ombudsman Office is legitimate and true. The Attached file was received by Enda Kenny and Alan Shatter over 3 months ago and they ignored it, therefore they are in breach of our constitution and must be removed from office. As difficult as it will be for the people of Ireland and the media to accept, Jesus is back in Ireland for his second coming, the proof is below and attached and Fine Gael and Labour stood in the way of this unique event for the people of Ireland. The proof is all in the reading. This is the second coming whether the people of Ireland accept it or not. The Catholic Church will confirm same to you. Prepare yourselves accordingly, remember the proof is with you, ignoring it is not an option. Your government have known about this and tried to hide it from you. Wakey Wakey Ireland........
Attention : People of Ireland.
RE : Serious Constitutional Crisis in Ireland
This email is being sent to notify the Irish Media that a very serious complaint has been lodged to the Government Ombudsman Office about the Taoiseach and his office and The Minister for Justice and his office that has severe ramifications for our country. As Journalists and Irish citizens you are duty bound to follow our constitution and you cannot excuse yourself from your constitutional duty to your country. This involves every Irish man, woman and child and serious is not a word that even begins to accurately describe it.
The Offices of The Taoiseach and Minister for Justice have tried their utmost to cover this huge debacle up and keep this out of the public domain however the people of Ireland have a right to know the truth. This email is 100% proof that the Taoiseach and Minister for Justice are acting outside of our constitution, a severe breach of our constitution which renders them ineligible to continue in office serving our country and when the truth of this emerges it will bring unrepairable eternal shame and disgrace to our country not just amongst our own countrymen and women but also on a global scale. The world will learn about this and ona global scale our country will be ruined and be the laughing stock if you the journalists don't start doing your work.
THIS IS THE LARGEST CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS OUR COUNTRY HAS EVER FACED - it is not going to go away until it is dealt with, ignorance, disbelief and fear of the truth is no reason for you journalists not to report this story. When you discover what your government hid from the people to protect their political careers and reputations at the expense of violating our constitution you will discover that treason has been committed and criminal charges could follow. The proof is below, untenable proof and your job as journalists is to get to the bottom of the truth. The Media need to get a full statement from the Government Ombudsman Office, The Taoiseach and Mr Shatter. You cannot continue to keep your heads in the sand, the truth must be told to the people of Ireland and if you do not report the truth to the people of your country then you are just as guilty as Mr Kenny and Mr Shatter. The longer the Irish Media ignore the truth the bigger the impact will be when it does emerge and our country may never recover from this. If you have a bit of pride in Ireland now is the time to show it.
Subject: RE: Ombudsman Complaint part one ( received from Iris Kilbey - Government Ombudsman Office)
From: switch@ombudsman.gov.ie
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:16:02 +0100
Dear Mr <snip>
As previously advised the Ombudsman may investigate complaints against Government Departments and Offices, Local Authorities, the Health Service Executive, An Post and bodies within the remit of the Disability Act, 2005. The Ombudsman's Act, 1980 does not provide for the examination of complaints concerning other Ombudsman Offices.
In relation to your list of bodies that you are looking for information on how to go about making a claim against. The Ombudsman may investigate complaints concerning the administrative actions of Government Departments including the Department of Justice and also the Department of the Taoiseach. The Garda Ombudsman, the Press Ombudsman, the Broadcasting Authority, the DPP and the Attorney General are all outside the remit of this Office. Therefore, we cannot investigate complaints relating to the administrative actions of these bodies. I would also like to advise you that it is not a function of the Office of the Ombudsman to provide information or an advisory service in relation to complaint making concerning public bodies that are outside remit.
I trust this clarifies the matter for you.
Regards
Iris Kilbey
Office of the Ombudsman
COPY OF COMPLAINT :
To: switch@ombudsman.gov.ie
Subject: RE: Ombudsman Complaint part one
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:48:43 +0100
Hello
Many thanks for your response. I would like to proceed with a complaint about the Minister for Justices Office and the office of the Taoiseach, I contacted them with full details of who I am, asked them to assist, they acknowledged receipt of my emails, stated it was being dealt with but did not deal with it. This has serious ramifications for the people of Ireland and indeed the world. It affects our reputation globally. I have a court case coming up and will be calling the people below to verify they did indeed receive my emails and the contents of said emails will come out in court. I am telling the truth as difficult as it may be to comprehend. By not following through on my emails to their departments these offices and those in charge of them are in breach of Article 6.1 , 44.1 and the preamble to the Irish constitution and on this basis I would like to make my complaint.
2) Article 6.1 - "All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good".
3) Article 44:1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion
The preamble to the Irish Constitution : In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.
This is very serious for the people of Ireland and the Government have no right to hide this from the people any longer to protect their guilt.
Your office will have to download this free of charge : http://stores.lulu.com/2012 the book entitled The second coming part 1 and part 2 and the book entitled Gardai and Government : Judgement Day in order to verify I am telling the truth.
“ For the Glory of God and Honour of Ireland”
“Dochum Gloire de agus onora na hEireann” - Last Line Irish Constitution
Many thanks
<snip>0 -
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I actually did read it, I was just referring to how long winded it was.the constitution guarantees the right to be innocent until proven guilty the government ombudsman has already agreed with me
And yet you have come on a public forum and asserted that the Taoiseach is guilty of breaches of the constitution without providing any evidence or waiting until you prove him guilty in court?
Seriously, lay off the Jesus juice0 -
This is even better than the freeman stuff. If Jesus really is back for his second coming then he's hardly going to be stopped by Enda fecking Kenny.As difficult as it will be for the people of Ireland and the media to accept, Jesus is back in Ireland for his second coming, the proof is below and attached and Fine Gael and Labour stood in the way of this unique event for the people of Ireland.0 -
/gets popcorn0
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I actually did read it, I was just referring to how long winded it was.
And yet you have come on a public forum and asserted that the Taoiseach is guilty of breaches of the constitution without providing any evidence or waiting until you prove him guilty in court?
Seriously, lay off the Jesus juice
You could not have read it all including the evidence at the link provided free of charge.....of course its long...a challenge to the constitution and government in breach of same is not going to be short......and I am not on any Jesus juice nor do I know what jesus juice is....if your making up things like Jesus juice to discredit me and my claims then your telling lies to support your claims......someone who tells lies to discredit another person is themself guilty0 -
not even wrong wrote: »This is even better than the freeman stuff. If Jesus really is back for his second coming then he's hardly going to be stopped by Enda fecking Kenny.
Hence the court case and constitutional challenge.....your right, Enda Kenny wont stop it happening but has tried....0 -
Is this what Dana was on about the other night?0
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Is this what Dana was on about the other night?
No but if you remember Miriam OCallaghan during the debate asked the candidates specifically about the oath to God that they take as President and she did this because she knew this was surfacing.........and also she enquiried about their intentions towards dissolution of a dail....
Presidential Oath
maintain the Constitution of Ireland and uphold its laws, that I will fulfil my duties faithfully and conscientiously in accordance with the Constitution and the law, and that I will dedicate my abilities to the service and welfare of the people of Ireland. May God direct and sustain me.
Miriam knew what she was at asking them their beliefs in God and how they would view the oath.....0 -
OP are you for serious with this? As someone else stated, this is better than the freeman crap.....
If you take this to court you will loose your shirt in costs.
/joins Wolfe tone with some popcorn and beers
This will be an interesting one to watch.0 -
It's hard to have faith in that constitution, as a non-religious Irish citizen. It makes for depressing reading.0
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OP are you for serious with this? As someone else stated, this is better than the freeman crap.....
If you take this to court you will loose your shirt in costs.
/joins Wolfe tone with some popcorn and beers
This will be an interesting one to watch.
On what basis do you presume I will lose my shirt? The Supreme court has ruled many times that by nature of our Constitution we are a Christian Country with Christian Beliefs and part of being a Christian is beliving in a second coming.....just because many people in ireland lost the faith and stopped beign christian doesnt mean a second coming wont happen it just means when it does they will be so unprepared they will want to sit back and have beers and popcorn....
I draw your attention to the vision in 1879 in Knock....this vision predicted the second coming would happen in Ireland..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Shrine
God will ensure his prophecies about a second coming will come true...people who were not prepared for it...... popcorn and beers....
The vision of knock was a prophecy that the lamb would have his second coming in Ireland.....with or without the peoples belief..... including Enda Kenny.....0 -
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Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »It's hard to have faith in that constitution, as a non-religious Irish citizen. It makes for depressing reading.
I have to agree with you. At least the OP is highlighting how backward DeValeras constitution is for 21st century Ireland, so backward in fact that this sort of thing can even be brought up.
Thanks OP for showing how badly we need constitutional reform to remove all religious references from Bunreacht na hEireann.0 -
To: [email]
Subject: Re: Complaint reference number
From: [/email]switch@ombudsman.gov.ie
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 15:39:31 +0100
Dear <snip>
I refer to your email dated 13 October 2011.
I would like to advise you that I am conducting enquiries with the two Departments concerned in your complaint. A complaint number is not generally allocated to a complaint during this process. When I have completed my enquiries I will be in contact you again.
Regards
Iris Kilbey
Enquiries Unit
Office of the Ombudsman
The Ombudsman wouldnt conduct enquiries on such a stupid claim unless they knew it wasnt stupid......0 -
OP are you for serious with this? As someone else stated, this is better than the freeman crap.....
If you take this to court you will loose your shirt in costs.
/joins Wolfe tone with some popcorn and beers
This will be an interesting one to watch.
On what basis do you presume I will lose my shirt? The Supreme court has ruled many times that by nature of our Constitution we are a Christian Country with Christian Beliefs and part of being a Christian is beliving in a second coming.....just because many people in ireland lost the faith and stopped beign christian doesnt mean a second coming wont happen it just means when it does they will be so unprepared they will want to sit back and have beers and popcorn....
I draw your attention to the vision in 1879 in Knock....this vision predicted the second coming would happen in Ireland..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Shrine
God will ensure his prophecies about a second coming will come true...people who were not prepared for it...... popcorn and beers....
The vision of knock was a prophecy that the lamb would have his second coming in Ireland.....with or without the peoples belief..... including Enda Kenny.....
So according to the supreme court, since I am not Christian, that would make me an alien in Ireland?
I'm curious.0 -
There are sections in the Irish constitution giving freedom of religion.
I believe the Soviet regime had a constitution about the same time, giving the same freedoms. Which system would you have preferred to live under?0 -
I have to agree with you. At least the OP is highlighting how backward DeValeras constitution is for 21st century Ireland, so backward in fact that this sort of thing can even be brought up.
Thanks OP for showing how badly we need constitutional reform to remove all religious references from Bunreacht na hEireann.
The constitution is not backward, its the people in 21st century Ireland who turned their back on the constitution.....anyone without christian beliefs in ireland is in breach of the constitution....people who are wrong about God and dont want to accept there will be a second coming do their utmost to prove they are right.....the same God mentioned in our constitution is the same God that will ensure the second coming happens and those whom turned their back on our constitution and stopped being christian will be proven to be the ones whom lived backward lives and will be faced with accepting a reality they didnt know could exist because they had no faith in God....De Valera was a gifted man and liased with the Vatican with the wording of the constitution...he had the gift of the spirit of God.....0 -
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Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »So according to the supreme court, since I am not Christian, that would make me an alien in Ireland?
I'm curious.
In Kennedy V Ireland (1987) I.R. 587, and Ryan V Attorney General (1965) IR 294 Judges in both these decisions used the term Christian therefore we are by nature of our constitution a group of people who believe in Jesus, believe in God and therefore we believe there will be a second coming of the son .... those whom didnt remain christian may not be classed as aliens but they will be classed as fools when Gods prophecies come true0 -
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You need to familiarise yourself with the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution, which was signed into law on 05/01/73:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_IrelandThe Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland removed from the constitution a controversial reference to the "special position" of the Roman Catholic Church as well as recognition of certain other named religious denominations. It was effected by the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution Act, 1972 which was approved by referendum on 7 December 1972 and signed into law on 5 January 1973.
Contents
Changes to the text
Deletion of the entirety of Article 44.1.2:
The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.
Deletion of the entirety of Article 44.1.3:
The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution.
(Article 44.1.1 correspondingly renumbered as Article 44.1)
[edit] Contemporary viewpoint
In drafting the Irish constitution in 1936 and 1937, Éamon de Valera and his advisers chose to reflect what had been a contemporary willingness by constitution drafters and lawmakers in Europe to mention and in some ways recognise religion in explicit detail. This contrasted with many 1920s constitutions, notably the Irish Free State Constitution of 1922, which, following the secularism of the initial period following the First World War, simply prohibited any discrimination based on religion or avoided religious issues entirely.
De Valera, his advisers (Fr. John Charles McQuaid, the future Archbishop of Dublin), and the men who put words to de Valera's concepts for the constitution (John Hearne and Mícheál Ó Gríobhtha) faced conflicting demands in his drafting of the article on religion.
The demand from conservative Roman Catholics that Catholicism be established as the state religion of Ireland;
Protestants' fears of discrimination.
Prevailing attitudes of anti-semitism.
The fact that most people in Ireland belonged to some religion, and that the education system and to a lesser extent the health system were denominational in structure, with Roman Catholicism, the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church, the Methodist Church, the Jewish community and others running their own schools and non-governmental agencies.
De Valera's solution was Article 44. In contemporary terms, it marked a defeat for conservative Catholics, and Pope Pius XI explicitly withheld his approval from it:
Catholicism was not made the state church.
Catholicism was given an undefined "special position" on the basis of being the church of the majority. This was not consistent with the stance of pre-Vatican II Catholicism, which claimed the right to legal and political influence on the basis of the claimed objective truth of its teachings rather than the size of its following.
Other religions were named and recognised on a lower level. The use of the Church of Ireland's official name antagonised conservative Catholics, who saw Catholicism as being the proper and rightful "church of Ireland".
The Jewish community in Ireland was also given recognition. The explicit granting of a right to exist to the Jewish faith in Ireland marked a significant difference to the legal approach to Jewish rights in other European states, though contemporary Irish society was far from free of anti-semitism.
Though perceived in retrospect as a sectarian article, Article 44 was praised in 1937 by leaders of Irish Protestant churches (notably the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin) and by Jewish groups. Conservative Catholics condemned it as "liberal".
When the contents of Article 44 were put to Pope Pius XI by Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli (later Pope Pius XII), the pope stated in diplomatic language: "We do not approve, nor do we not disapprove - we will remain silent". It was said that the Vatican was privately more appreciative of the constitution, and Pius XII later praised it.[1]
[edit] Viewpoint in the 1970s
By 1972 an article once condemned by critics as liberal and indeed by some as offensive to Catholicism, had come to be seen as out of place, dated, and potentially discriminatory to Protestants. The "special position" of the Catholic Church had granted to that church, albeit in an undefined manner, was a special status that was out of step with post-Vatican II Catholic thinking on the relationships between the churches. The Protestant churches, though they had declined in adherents, were more outspoken and willing to express their unhappiness than they had been in the Ireland of the 1920s and 1930s, when many were fearful that criticism of the Irish state would be seen as criticism of Irish independence and so implicitly a preference for the British regime that had ruled Ireland before 1922.
In addition, in the rapprochement between Northern Ireland and what was now known as the Republic of Ireland, many southerners perceived the "special position" as a barrier between a north-south relationship and even a potential source of discrimination against minorities. In addition the explicit recognition of certain denominations was seen as unnecessary because of the provisions Article 44.2 which contains guarantees of freedom of worship and against religious discrimination. Though the changes shown above are those made to the English language version of the constitution, constitutionally it is the Irish text that takes precedence.
This Fifth Amendment was introduced by the Fianna Fáil government of Jack Lynch and supported by every other major political party. The Catholic Church did not voice any objection to the amendment but it was opposed by some conservative Catholics. Some leading members of the Church of Ireland and the Jewish Community said during the campaign that while they appreciated the Article's recognition of their existence (and in the case of the Jewish Community, their right to exist, in contrast to anti-Jewish laws in other states) in 1937, it was no longer needed in the 1970s and had lost its usefulness.
The referendum on the amendment occurred on the same day as the referendum on the Fourth Amendment which lowered the voting age to eighteen. The Fifth Amendment was approved by 721,003 (84.4%) in favour and 133,430 (15.6%) against.
Having completed its passage through the Oireachtas and been adopted by the people, it was enacted by being signed into constitutional law by the President of Ireland, the man who had drafted the original article, Éamon de Valera.
Basically in Ireland there is a freedom of religious belief, The references to Christiandom is outdated in the current Irish climate and in my belief should be removed completely from the constitution.0 -
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Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »So according to the supreme court, since I am not Christian, that would make me an alien in Ireland?
I'm curious.
In Kennedy V Ireland (1987) I.R. 587, and Ryan V Attorney General (1965) IR 294 Judges in both these decisions used the term Christian therefore we are by nature of our constitution a group of people who believe in Jesus, believe in God and therefore we believe there will be a second coming of the son .... those whom didnt remain christian may not be classed as aliens but they will be classed as fools when Gods prophecies come true
So, apart from the babble at the end, the constitution recognises me as a citizen, despite not being Christian. Still don't where to stand on that, I live in theocratic constitutional democracy, according that that document. If the proportion of Christians in this country coutinues to fall, would you see a need to amend this, as it is clearly discriminatory against non-Christians? Is discrimination a Christian teaching?0
This discussion has been closed.
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