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Constitutional Challenge in courts

  • 15-10-2011 9:24am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭


    If someone were to have proof that a Taoiseach and Minister in power in Ireland was acting outside of our constitution in the running of their department and our country does a citizen have a right to take it to court and if so how would they go about it? bear in mind if it was proven to be correct it would bring down a government and the only place to decide whether our country is being run in breach of the constitution would be in the courts so how would one challenge the government through the courts?


«1345

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    Have a writ issued and serve it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    could a citizen issue the writ themself via the necessary court or would they have to hire a barrister....can an irish citizen represent themself in the high courts?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭Avatargh


    selfrep wrote: »
    could a citizen issue the writ themself via the necessary court or would they have to hire a barrister....can an irish citizen represent themself in the high courts?

    Yes. Just a citizen can perform surgery on him or herself, or do his or her own accounts, or build his or her own extension, or give himself or herself planning advice. The question is whether its good idea or not. If you can't do enough basic research to find out (a) how to sue or (b) if you can represent yourself its probably unlikely that you'll make a decent fist of bringing a constitutional challenge that would as, you say, "bring down the country". Good luck.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,550 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    selfrep wrote: »
    could a citizen issue the writ themself via the necessary court or would they have to hire a barrister....can an irish citizen represent themself in the high courts?

    Yes, but it is such a complex area of law it is not recommended. It is not risk free; if the case is unsuccessful the person could be liable to pay the states costs.

    In any event, there are many solicitors and barristers who would take on such a case on a no money down/ no foal no fee basis if there was a stateable point of law in it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    I wouldnt be suing the state so wouldnt be looking for damages, it would be to prove our government is knowingly ignoring 3 essential elements of our constitution that renders them ineligible to govern our country, I owouldnt proceed unless there was untenable proof in the form of the government ombudsman office agreeing with my complaint.......


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    Avatargh wrote: »
    Yes. Just a citizen can perform surgery on him or herself, or do his or her own accounts, or build his or her own extension, or give himself or herself planning advice. The question is whether its good idea or not. If you can't do enough basic research to find out (a) how to sue or (b) if you can represent yourself its probably unlikely that you'll make a decent fist of bringing a constitutional challenge that would as, you say, "bring down the country". Good luck.

    I find your response typical of one the reasons I would be bringing the case in the first place....I wouldnt be doing it for me I would be doing it for the citizens of Ireland and thus I am asking for assistance from ordinary citizens that use these boards and tips based on their knowledge, we are all a team and the reason our country is in the state its in is because people like you make blaise unwarranted comments such as the above without firmly knowing the seriousness of the situation.....if you want to know the seriousness read article 6.1, 44.1 and the preamble to the irish constitution and when you read these artcicles I would say its most unlikely youll make a decent fist of understanding the severity of this ....

    “ For the Glory of God and Honour of Ireland” “Dochum Gloire de agus onora na hEireann” - Last Line Irish Constitution


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,580 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Then talk to the ombudsman http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    COPY OF COMPLAINT :
    To: [deleted]
    Subject: RE: Ombudsman Complaint part one
    Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:48:43 +0100

    Hello
    Many thanks for your response. I would like to proceed with a complaint about the Minister for Justices Office and the office of the Taoiseach, I contacted them with full details of who I am, asked them to assist, they acknowledged receipt of my emails, stated it was being dealt with but did not deal with it. This has serious ramifications for the people of Ireland and indeed the world. It affects our reputation globally. I have a court case coming up and will be calling the people below to verify they did indeed receive my emails and the contents of said emails will come out in court. I am telling the truth as difficult as it may be to comprehend. By not following through on my emails to their departments these offices and those in charge of them are in breach of Article 6.1 , 44.1 and the preamble to the Irish constitution and on this basis I would like to make my complaint.

    2) Article 6.1 - "All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good".

    3) Article 44:1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion

    The preamble to the Irish Constitution : In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

    This is very serious for the people of Ireland and the Government have no right to hide this from the people any longer to protect their guilt.
    Your office will have to download this free of charge : http://stores.lulu.com/2012 the book entitled The second coming part 1 and part 2 and the book entitled Gardai and Government : Judgement Day in order to verify I am telling the truth.
    “ For the Glory of God and Honour of Ireland” “Dochum Gloire de agus onora na hEireann” - Last Line Irish Constitution
    Many thanks
    <snip>

    Subject: email to the Taoiseach
    To: [deleted]
    From: [deleted]
    Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:09:42 +0100


    Dear Mr. <snip>

    I wish to acknowledge receipt of your copy email of 3 September, 2011 which
    will be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.


    Yours sincerely,


    Patricia Collins
    Assistant Private Secretary
    to the Taoiseach

    Subject: email to the Taoiseach
    To: [deleted]
    From: [deleted]
    Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:41:15 +0100


    Dear Mr. <snip>

    I wish to acknowledge receipt of your copy email of 19 August, 2011 which
    will be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.


    Yours sincerely,


    Patricia Collins
    Assistant Private Secretary
    to the Taoiseach

    Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 10:15:06 +0100
    > From: [deleted]
    > To: [deleted]
    > Subject: Fw: Fw: Garda Commissioner & Taoiseach
    >
    >
    > I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email and confirm the matter is
    > currently being dealt with.
    >
    > __________________
    > Damien Brennan
    > Private Secretary

    Subject: Email to the Taoiseach
    To: [deleted]
    From: [deleted]
    Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:12:35 +0100

    Dear Mr. <snip>

    I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 12 August, 2011 which will
    be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.


    Yours sincerely,


    Patricia Collins
    Assistant Private Secretary
    to the Taoiseach
    Subject: email to the Taoiseach
    To: [deleted]
    From: [deleted]
    Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 13:21:48 +0100

    Dear Mr. <snip>

    I wish to acknowledge receipt of your copy email of 9 August, 2011 which
    will be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.


    Yours sincerely,


    Patricia Collins
    Assistant Private Secretary
    to the Taoiseach

    Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:10:39 +0100
    > From: [deleted]
    > To: [deleted]
    > Subject: Response
    >
    >
    > Mr <snip>
    > [deleted]
    >
    >
    > 05 August, 2011
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr <snip>,
    >
    > I am directed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence, Mr Alan
    > Shatter, T.D., to refer to your recent correspondence.
    >
    > The Minister has sent a copy of your correspondence to the Garda
    > authorities for their attention.
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    > Damien Brennan

    3 August, 2011
    Dear Mr. <snip>,
    I write to acknowledge receipt of your email dated 30 July, 2011 which I
    will bring to the Minister's attention.
    Yours sincerely,
    Damien Brennan
    _______________________
    Private Secretary
    to the Minister for Justice & Equality
    To: [deleted]
    > From: [deleted]
    > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:06:28 +0100
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Thank you for your e-mail. All messages are given careful consideration
    > and, where appropriate, a further response will issue. It would be very
    > helpful if you would e-mail a response to this message giving your full
    > postal address and telephone number. Thank you.
    >
    >
    > Alan Shatter TD
    > Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence
    > 94, St. Stephen's Green
    > Dublin 2
    > Tel: 01 618 3911
    Subject: email to the Taoiseach
    > To: [deleted]
    > From: [deleted]
    > Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 18:30:43 +0100
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. <snip>
    >
    > I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 25 July, 2011 which will be
    > brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
    >
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    >
    > Patricia Collins
    > Assistant Private Secretary
    > to the Taoiseach

    Subject: email to the Taoiseach
    > To: [deleted]
    > From: [deleted]
    > Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 18:30:43 +0100
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. <snip>
    >
    > I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 25 July, 2011 which will be
    > brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
    >
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    >
    > Patricia Collins
    > Assistant Private Secretary
    > to the Taoiseach

    Subject: email to the Taoiseach
    > To: [deleted]
    > From: [deleted]
    > Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:57:47 +0100
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. <snip>
    >
    > I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 16 July, 2011 which will be
    > brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
    >
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    >
    > Patricia Collins
    > Assistant Private Secretary
    > to the Taoiseach
    >
    > Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:57:01 +0100
    > From: [deleted]
    > To: [deleted]
    > Subject: Acknowledgement letter
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > 14 June, 2011
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. <snip>,
    >
    > I write to acknowledge receipt of your Letter dated 14 June, 2011 which I
    > will bring to the Minister's attention.
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    >
    >
    > Damien Brennan
    > _______________________
    > Private Secretary
    > to the Minister for Justice & Equality

    Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:53:58 +0100
    > From: [deleted]
    > To: [deleted]
    > Subject: Acknowledgement letter
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > 14 June, 2011
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. <snip>,
    >
    > I write to acknowledge receipt of your email dated 14 June, 2011 which I
    > will bring to the Minister's attention.
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    >
    > Damien Brennan
    >
    > _______________________
    > Private Secretary
    > to the Minister for Justice & Equality
    >
    Subject: recent correspondence to the Garda Commissioner.
    Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 08:58:15 +0100
    From: [deleted]
    To: [deleted]
    Dear Mr <snip>,

    I refer to your recent correspondence to the Commissioner dated 27/5/11, which has been forwarded to this office for attention.

    In order to progress this matter and have a Local Inspector call to address your concerns I would be obliged if you could provide me with your address.

    Yours Sincerely,

    David Butler, Sergeant,
    Office of the Assistant Commissioner,
    Dublin Metropolitan Region.


    Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 14:00:30 +0100
    > From: [deleted]
    > To: [deleted]
    > Subject: Acknowledgement Letter
    >
    >
    >
    > 2 June, 2011
    >
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. <snip>,
    >
    > I write to acknowledge receipt of your email, which I will bring to the
    > Minister's attention.
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    >
    > Damien Brennan
    > _______________________
    > Private Secretary
    > to the Minister for Justice & Equality
    >

    Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:30:56 +0000
    > From: [deleted]
    > To: [deleted]
    > Subject: Acknowledgement
    >
    >
    > I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email and confirm the matter is
    > currently being dealt with.
    >
    > __________________
    > Private Secretary to Minister Dermot Ahern

    > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:13:04 +0000
    > From: [deleted]
    > To: [deleted]
    > Subject: Acknowledgement
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > 18 November, 2009
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Dear Sir/Madam,
    >
    > I write to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 16 November, 2009 which
    > I will bring to the Minister's attention.
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________
    > Private Secretary

    Subject: email to the Taoiseach
    > To: [deleted]
    > From: [deleted]
    > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:46:52 +0000
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. <snip>
    >
    > I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email of 11 November, 2009 which will
    > be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
    >
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    >
    > David King
    > Assistant Private Secretary
    > to the Taoiseach

    Subject: email to the Taoiseach
    > To: [deleted]
    > From: [deleted]
    > Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:04:21 +0000
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. Hugheson
    >
    > I wish to acknowledge receipt of your copy email of 27 October, 2009 which
    > will be brought to the Taoiseach's attention as soon as possible.
    >
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    >
    > David King
    > Assistant Private Secretary
    > to the Taoiseach

    Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:46:23 +0100
    > From: [deleted]
    > To: [deleted]
    > Subject: Acknowledgement
    >
    >
    > I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email and confirm the matter is
    > currently being dealt with.
    >
    > __________________
    > Private Secretary to Minister Dermot Ahern

    From: [deleted]
    To: [deleted]; [deleted]
    Subject: President Visit to Navan
    Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 18:51:06 +0100

    Dear Mrs President,

    I had a colour copy of the book The Second Coming for you to be presented with when you visit St Marys Navan to accept on behalf of the good people of Ireland the chosen ones for the Kingdom of God.

    Unfortunately Sections from the Prophetic Book of Matthew had to be fulfilled which may sound strange but the Priests in Navan will tell you how they were fulfilled and why they are embarrassed they do not have the copy of the book to present to you.

    Enjoy your visit to Navan Mrs President I have asked the Mother of God to answer the prayer you ask of her when you visit her in the church and she said she will so that you too will believe.

    Blessings
    JC II

    Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:15:51 +0100
    > From: [deleted]
    > To: [deleted]
    > Subject: Acknowledgement
    >
    >
    > I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email and confirm the matter is
    > currently being dealt with.
    >
    > __________________
    > Private Secretary to Minister Dermot Ahern
    > Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:17:51 +0100
    > From: [deleted]
    > To: [deleted]
    > Subject:
    >
    >
    >
    > Mr. <snip>
    >
    > [deleted]
    >
    >
    > 30th July, 2009.
    >
    >
    > Dear Mr. <snip>,
    >
    > The Minister has asked me to thank you for your message of 19 July, 2009
    > conveying your views on the issue of blasphemous libel, which required
    > consideration in the context of the proposed reform of our defamation
    > legislation.
    >
    > The Minister very clearly and extensively set out all of the relevant
    > elements involved at the Dáil Committee Stage examination of the Defamation
    > Bill 2006 on 20 May. He particularly drew attention to the nature of the
    > constitutional obligation imposed on him. His preference at this time is to
    > proceed with reform rather than postpone it to await a possible referendum.
    >
    >
    > The Dáil Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights
    > passed the Minister's amendment to the Defamation Bill regarding
    > blasphemous libel at their meeting on 1 July, 2009. The Bill completed its
    > passage through both Houses of the Oireachtas on 9 July.
    >
    > Following consideration by the Council of State on 22 July, the President
    > signed the Defamation Bill into law on 23 July.
    >
    > While the Minister notes your views on this matter, he hopes that you can
    > understand his position which is effectively dictated by the constitutional
    > obligation and the advice in this regard by successive Attorneys General.
    > By way of a more extensive explanation, he has asked me to attach a copy of
    > his intervention before the Dáil Committee.
    >
    >
    > Yours sincerely,
    >
    > (See attached file: Ahern speech 20 May 2009.doc)
    > _____________________
    > Mr. Barry O'Donnell,
    > Private Secretary.


    To: [deleted]
    Subject: RE: Ombudsman Complaint part one
    From: [deleted]
    Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:16:02 +0100

    Dear Mr <snip>

    As previously advised the Ombudsman may investigate complaints against Government Departments and Offices, Local Authorities, the Health Service Executive, An Post and bodies within the remit of the Disability Act, 2005. The Ombudsman's Act, 1980 does not provide for the examination of complaints concerning other Ombudsman Offices.

    In relation to your list of bodies that you are looking for information on how to go about making a claim against. The Ombudsman may investigate complaints concerning the administrative actions of Government Departments including the Department of Justice and also the Department of the Taoiseach. The Garda Ombudsman, the Press Ombudsman, the Broadcasting Authority, the DPP and the Attorney General are all outside the remit of this Office. Therefore, we cannot investigate complaints relating to the administrative actions of these bodies. I would also like to advise you that it is not a function of the Office of the Ombudsman to provide information or an advisory service in relation to complaint making concerning public bodies that are outside remit.

    I trust this clarifies the matter for you.

    Regards

    Iris Kilbey
    Office of the Ombudsman


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:16:09 +0100
    Subject: Enda Kenny & Ireland in Constitutional Crisis
    From: [email]
    To : [/email]news@rte.ie

    I can confirm the complaint made to Government Ombudsman Office is legitimate and true. The Attached file was received by Enda Kenny and Alan Shatter over 3 months ago and they ignored it, therefore they are in breach of our constitution and must be removed from office. As difficult as it will be for the people of Ireland and the media to accept, Jesus is back in Ireland for his second coming, the proof is below and attached and Fine Gael and Labour stood in the way of this unique event for the people of Ireland. The proof is all in the reading. This is the second coming whether the people of Ireland accept it or not. The Catholic Church will confirm same to you. Prepare yourselves accordingly, remember the proof is with you, ignoring it is not an option. Your government have known about this and tried to hide it from you. Wakey Wakey Ireland........



    Attention : People of Ireland.

    RE : Serious Constitutional Crisis in Ireland

    This email is being sent to notify the Irish Media that a very serious complaint has been lodged to the Government Ombudsman Office about the Taoiseach and his office and The Minister for Justice and his office that has severe ramifications for our country. As Journalists and Irish citizens you are duty bound to follow our constitution and you cannot excuse yourself from your constitutional duty to your country. This involves every Irish man, woman and child and serious is not a word that even begins to accurately describe it.

    The Offices of The Taoiseach and Minister for Justice have tried their utmost to cover this huge debacle up and keep this out of the public domain however the people of Ireland have a right to know the truth. This email is 100% proof that the Taoiseach and Minister for Justice are acting outside of our constitution, a severe breach of our constitution which renders them ineligible to continue in office serving our country and when the truth of this emerges it will bring unrepairable eternal shame and disgrace to our country not just amongst our own countrymen and women but also on a global scale. The world will learn about this and ona global scale our country will be ruined and be the laughing stock if you the journalists don't start doing your work.

    THIS IS THE LARGEST CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS OUR COUNTRY HAS EVER FACED - it is not going to go away until it is dealt with, ignorance, disbelief and fear of the truth is no reason for you journalists not to report this story. When you discover what your government hid from the people to protect their political careers and reputations at the expense of violating our constitution you will discover that treason has been committed and criminal charges could follow. The proof is below, untenable proof and your job as journalists is to get to the bottom of the truth. The Media need to get a full statement from the Government Ombudsman Office, The Taoiseach and Mr Shatter. You cannot continue to keep your heads in the sand, the truth must be told to the people of Ireland and if you do not report the truth to the people of your country then you are just as guilty as Mr Kenny and Mr Shatter. The longer the Irish Media ignore the truth the bigger the impact will be when it does emerge and our country may never recover from this. If you have a bit of pride in Ireland now is the time to show it.

    Subject: RE: Ombudsman Complaint part one ( received from Iris Kilbey - Government Ombudsman Office)
    From: switch@ombudsman.gov.ie
    Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:16:02 +0100

    Dear Mr <snip>

    As previously advised the Ombudsman may investigate complaints against Government Departments and Offices, Local Authorities, the Health Service Executive, An Post and bodies within the remit of the Disability Act, 2005. The Ombudsman's Act, 1980 does not provide for the examination of complaints concerning other Ombudsman Offices.

    In relation to your list of bodies that you are looking for information on how to go about making a claim against. The Ombudsman may investigate complaints concerning the administrative actions of Government Departments including the Department of Justice and also the Department of the Taoiseach. The Garda Ombudsman, the Press Ombudsman, the Broadcasting Authority, the DPP and the Attorney General are all outside the remit of this Office. Therefore, we cannot investigate complaints relating to the administrative actions of these bodies. I would also like to advise you that it is not a function of the Office of the Ombudsman to provide information or an advisory service in relation to complaint making concerning public bodies that are outside remit.

    I trust this clarifies the matter for you.

    Regards

    Iris Kilbey
    Office of the Ombudsman

    COPY OF COMPLAINT :
    To: switch@ombudsman.gov.ie
    Subject: RE: Ombudsman Complaint part one
    Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:48:43 +0100

    Hello
    Many thanks for your response. I would like to proceed with a complaint about the Minister for Justices Office and the office of the Taoiseach, I contacted them with full details of who I am, asked them to assist, they acknowledged receipt of my emails, stated it was being dealt with but did not deal with it. This has serious ramifications for the people of Ireland and indeed the world. It affects our reputation globally. I have a court case coming up and will be calling the people below to verify they did indeed receive my emails and the contents of said emails will come out in court. I am telling the truth as difficult as it may be to comprehend. By not following through on my emails to their departments these offices and those in charge of them are in breach of Article 6.1 , 44.1 and the preamble to the Irish constitution and on this basis I would like to make my complaint.

    2) Article 6.1 - "All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good".

    3) Article 44:1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion

    The preamble to the Irish Constitution : In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

    This is very serious for the people of Ireland and the Government have no right to hide this from the people any longer to protect their guilt.
    Your office will have to download this free of charge : http://stores.lulu.com/2012 the book entitled The second coming part 1 and part 2 and the book entitled Gardai and Government : Judgement Day in order to verify I am telling the truth.
    “ For the Glory of God and Honour of Ireland”

    “Dochum Gloire de agus onora na hEireann” - Last Line Irish Constitution
    Many thanks
    <snip>


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    marketty wrote: »
    <snip - original post deleted>

    Judging someone without reading the evidence first is plain stupidity, the constitution guarantees the right to be innocent until proven guilty the government ombudsman has already agreed with me


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭marketty


    I actually did read it, I was just referring to how long winded it was.
    selfrep wrote: »
    the constitution guarantees the right to be innocent until proven guilty the government ombudsman has already agreed with me

    And yet you have come on a public forum and asserted that the Taoiseach is guilty of breaches of the constitution without providing any evidence or waiting until you prove him guilty in court?

    Seriously, lay off the Jesus juice


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 480 ✭✭not even wrong


    As difficult as it will be for the people of Ireland and the media to accept, Jesus is back in Ireland for his second coming, the proof is below and attached and Fine Gael and Labour stood in the way of this unique event for the people of Ireland.
    This is even better than the freeman stuff. If Jesus really is back for his second coming then he's hardly going to be stopped by Enda fecking Kenny.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    /gets popcorn


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    marketty wrote: »
    I actually did read it, I was just referring to how long winded it was.



    And yet you have come on a public forum and asserted that the Taoiseach is guilty of breaches of the constitution without providing any evidence or waiting until you prove him guilty in court?

    Seriously, lay off the Jesus juice

    You could not have read it all including the evidence at the link provided free of charge.....of course its long...a challenge to the constitution and government in breach of same is not going to be short......and I am not on any Jesus juice nor do I know what jesus juice is....if your making up things like Jesus juice to discredit me and my claims then your telling lies to support your claims......someone who tells lies to discredit another person is themself guilty


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    This is even better than the freeman stuff. If Jesus really is back for his second coming then he's hardly going to be stopped by Enda fecking Kenny.

    Hence the court case and constitutional challenge.....your right, Enda Kenny wont stop it happening but has tried....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭marketty


    Is this what Dana was on about the other night?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    marketty wrote: »
    Is this what Dana was on about the other night?

    No but if you remember Miriam OCallaghan during the debate asked the candidates specifically about the oath to God that they take as President and she did this because she knew this was surfacing.........and also she enquiried about their intentions towards dissolution of a dail....

    Presidential Oath
    maintain the Constitution of Ireland and uphold its laws, that I will fulfil my duties faithfully and conscientiously in accordance with the Constitution and the law, and that I will dedicate my abilities to the service and welfare of the people of Ireland. May God direct and sustain me.

    Miriam knew what she was at asking them their beliefs in God and how they would view the oath.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭source


    OP are you for serious with this? As someone else stated, this is better than the freeman crap.....

    If you take this to court you will loose your shirt in costs.

    /joins Wolfe tone with some popcorn and beers

    This will be an interesting one to watch.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    It's hard to have faith in that constitution, as a non-religious Irish citizen. It makes for depressing reading.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    source wrote: »
    OP are you for serious with this? As someone else stated, this is better than the freeman crap.....

    If you take this to court you will loose your shirt in costs.

    /joins Wolfe tone with some popcorn and beers

    This will be an interesting one to watch.

    On what basis do you presume I will lose my shirt? The Supreme court has ruled many times that by nature of our Constitution we are a Christian Country with Christian Beliefs and part of being a Christian is beliving in a second coming.....just because many people in ireland lost the faith and stopped beign christian doesnt mean a second coming wont happen it just means when it does they will be so unprepared they will want to sit back and have beers and popcorn....

    I draw your attention to the vision in 1879 in Knock....this vision predicted the second coming would happen in Ireland..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Shrine

    God will ensure his prophecies about a second coming will come true...people who were not prepared for it...... popcorn and beers....

    The vision of knock was a prophecy that the lamb would have his second coming in Ireland.....with or without the peoples belief..... including Enda Kenny.....


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭marketty


    It's hard to have faith in that constitution, as a non-religious Irish citizen. It makes for depressing reading.

    I have to agree with you. At least the OP is highlighting how backward DeValeras constitution is for 21st century Ireland, so backward in fact that this sort of thing can even be brought up.
    Thanks OP for showing how badly we need constitutional reform to remove all religious references from Bunreacht na hEireann.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    To: [email]
    Subject: Re: Complaint reference number
    From: [/email]switch@ombudsman.gov.ie
    Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 15:39:31 +0100

    Dear <snip>

    I refer to your email dated 13 October 2011.

    I would like to advise you that I am conducting enquiries with the two Departments concerned in your complaint. A complaint number is not generally allocated to a complaint during this process. When I have completed my enquiries I will be in contact you again.

    Regards

    Iris Kilbey
    Enquiries Unit
    Office of the Ombudsman

    The Ombudsman wouldnt conduct enquiries on such a stupid claim unless they knew it wasnt stupid......


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    selfrep wrote: »
    source wrote: »
    OP are you for serious with this? As someone else stated, this is better than the freeman crap.....

    If you take this to court you will loose your shirt in costs.

    /joins Wolfe tone with some popcorn and beers

    This will be an interesting one to watch.

    On what basis do you presume I will lose my shirt? The Supreme court has ruled many times that by nature of our Constitution we are a Christian Country with Christian Beliefs and part of being a Christian is beliving in a second coming.....just because many people in ireland lost the faith and stopped beign christian doesnt mean a second coming wont happen it just means when it does they will be so unprepared they will want to sit back and have beers and popcorn....

    I draw your attention to the vision in 1879 in Knock....this vision predicted the second coming would happen in Ireland..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Shrine

    God will ensure his prophecies about a second coming will come true...people who were not prepared for it...... popcorn and beers....

    The vision of knock was a prophecy that the lamb would have his second coming in Ireland.....with or without the peoples belief..... including Enda Kenny.....

    So according to the supreme court, since I am not Christian, that would make me an alien in Ireland?

    I'm curious.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,768 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    There are sections in the Irish constitution giving freedom of religion.
    I believe the Soviet regime had a constitution about the same time, giving the same freedoms. Which system would you have preferred to live under?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    marketty wrote: »
    I have to agree with you. At least the OP is highlighting how backward DeValeras constitution is for 21st century Ireland, so backward in fact that this sort of thing can even be brought up.
    Thanks OP for showing how badly we need constitutional reform to remove all religious references from Bunreacht na hEireann.

    The constitution is not backward, its the people in 21st century Ireland who turned their back on the constitution.....anyone without christian beliefs in ireland is in breach of the constitution....people who are wrong about God and dont want to accept there will be a second coming do their utmost to prove they are right.....the same God mentioned in our constitution is the same God that will ensure the second coming happens and those whom turned their back on our constitution and stopped being christian will be proven to be the ones whom lived backward lives and will be faced with accepting a reality they didnt know could exist because they had no faith in God....De Valera was a gifted man and liased with the Vatican with the wording of the constitution...he had the gift of the spirit of God.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Manach wrote: »
    There are sections in the Irish constitution giving freedom of religion.
    I believe the Soviet regime had a constitution about the same time, giving the same freedoms. Which system would you have preferred to live under?

    Manach, meet False Dichotomy, False Dichotomy, Manach.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    So according to the supreme court, since I am not Christian, that would make me an alien in Ireland?

    I'm curious.

    In Kennedy V Ireland (1987) I.R. 587, and Ryan V Attorney General (1965) IR 294 Judges in both these decisions used the term Christian therefore we are by nature of our constitution a group of people who believe in Jesus, believe in God and therefore we believe there will be a second coming of the son .... those whom didnt remain christian may not be classed as aliens but they will be classed as fools when Gods prophecies come true


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭marketty


    selfrep wrote: »
    .....anyone without christian beliefs in ireland is in breach of the constitution....

    Wow

    I hear they eat their first born too


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭source


    You need to familiarise yourself with the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution, which was signed into law on 05/01/73:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
    The Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland removed from the constitution a controversial reference to the "special position" of the Roman Catholic Church as well as recognition of certain other named religious denominations. It was effected by the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution Act, 1972 which was approved by referendum on 7 December 1972 and signed into law on 5 January 1973.
    Contents

    Changes to the text

    Deletion of the entirety of Article 44.1.2:

    The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.

    Deletion of the entirety of Article 44.1.3:

    The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution.

    (Article 44.1.1 correspondingly renumbered as Article 44.1)

    [edit] Contemporary viewpoint

    In drafting the Irish constitution in 1936 and 1937, Éamon de Valera and his advisers chose to reflect what had been a contemporary willingness by constitution drafters and lawmakers in Europe to mention and in some ways recognise religion in explicit detail. This contrasted with many 1920s constitutions, notably the Irish Free State Constitution of 1922, which, following the secularism of the initial period following the First World War, simply prohibited any discrimination based on religion or avoided religious issues entirely.

    De Valera, his advisers (Fr. John Charles McQuaid, the future Archbishop of Dublin), and the men who put words to de Valera's concepts for the constitution (John Hearne and Mícheál Ó Gríobhtha) faced conflicting demands in his drafting of the article on religion.

    The demand from conservative Roman Catholics that Catholicism be established as the state religion of Ireland;

    Protestants' fears of discrimination.

    Prevailing attitudes of anti-semitism.

    The fact that most people in Ireland belonged to some religion, and that the education system and to a lesser extent the health system were denominational in structure, with Roman Catholicism, the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church, the Methodist Church, the Jewish community and others running their own schools and non-governmental agencies.

    De Valera's solution was Article 44. In contemporary terms, it marked a defeat for conservative Catholics, and Pope Pius XI explicitly withheld his approval from it:

    Catholicism was not made the state church.

    Catholicism was given an undefined "special position" on the basis of being the church of the majority. This was not consistent with the stance of pre-Vatican II Catholicism, which claimed the right to legal and political influence on the basis of the claimed objective truth of its teachings rather than the size of its following.

    Other religions were named and recognised on a lower level. The use of the Church of Ireland's official name antagonised conservative Catholics, who saw Catholicism as being the proper and rightful "church of Ireland".

    The Jewish community in Ireland was also given recognition. The explicit granting of a right to exist to the Jewish faith in Ireland marked a significant difference to the legal approach to Jewish rights in other European states, though contemporary Irish society was far from free of anti-semitism.

    Though perceived in retrospect as a sectarian article, Article 44 was praised in 1937 by leaders of Irish Protestant churches (notably the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin) and by Jewish groups. Conservative Catholics condemned it as "liberal".

    When the contents of Article 44 were put to Pope Pius XI by Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli (later Pope Pius XII), the pope stated in diplomatic language: "We do not approve, nor do we not disapprove - we will remain silent". It was said that the Vatican was privately more appreciative of the constitution, and Pius XII later praised it.[1]
    [edit] Viewpoint in the 1970s

    By 1972 an article once condemned by critics as liberal and indeed by some as offensive to Catholicism, had come to be seen as out of place, dated, and potentially discriminatory to Protestants. The "special position" of the Catholic Church had granted to that church, albeit in an undefined manner, was a special status that was out of step with post-Vatican II Catholic thinking on the relationships between the churches. The Protestant churches, though they had declined in adherents, were more outspoken and willing to express their unhappiness than they had been in the Ireland of the 1920s and 1930s, when many were fearful that criticism of the Irish state would be seen as criticism of Irish independence and so implicitly a preference for the British regime that had ruled Ireland before 1922.

    In addition, in the rapprochement between Northern Ireland and what was now known as the Republic of Ireland, many southerners perceived the "special position" as a barrier between a north-south relationship and even a potential source of discrimination against minorities. In addition the explicit recognition of certain denominations was seen as unnecessary because of the provisions Article 44.2 which contains guarantees of freedom of worship and against religious discrimination. Though the changes shown above are those made to the English language version of the constitution, constitutionally it is the Irish text that takes precedence.

    This Fifth Amendment was introduced by the Fianna Fáil government of Jack Lynch and supported by every other major political party. The Catholic Church did not voice any objection to the amendment but it was opposed by some conservative Catholics. Some leading members of the Church of Ireland and the Jewish Community said during the campaign that while they appreciated the Article's recognition of their existence (and in the case of the Jewish Community, their right to exist, in contrast to anti-Jewish laws in other states) in 1937, it was no longer needed in the 1970s and had lost its usefulness.

    The referendum on the amendment occurred on the same day as the referendum on the Fourth Amendment which lowered the voting age to eighteen. The Fifth Amendment was approved by 721,003 (84.4%) in favour and 133,430 (15.6%) against.

    Having completed its passage through the Oireachtas and been adopted by the people, it was enacted by being signed into constitutional law by the President of Ireland, the man who had drafted the original article, Éamon de Valera.

    Basically in Ireland there is a freedom of religious belief, The references to Christiandom is outdated in the current Irish climate and in my belief should be removed completely from the constitution.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    selfrep wrote: »
    So according to the supreme court, since I am not Christian, that would make me an alien in Ireland?

    I'm curious.

    In Kennedy V Ireland (1987) I.R. 587, and Ryan V Attorney General (1965) IR 294 Judges in both these decisions used the term Christian therefore we are by nature of our constitution a group of people who believe in Jesus, believe in God and therefore we believe there will be a second coming of the son .... those whom didnt remain christian may not be classed as aliens but they will be classed as fools when Gods prophecies come true

    So, apart from the babble at the end, the constitution recognises me as a citizen, despite not being Christian. Still don't where to stand on that, I live in theocratic constitutional democracy, according that that document. If the proportion of Christians in this country coutinues to fall, would you see a need to amend this, as it is clearly discriminatory against non-Christians? Is discrimination a Christian teaching?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    source wrote: »
    You need to familiarise yourself with the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution, which was signed into law on 05/01/73:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
    The Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland removed from the constitution a controversial reference to the "special position" of the Roman Catholic Church as well as recognition of certain other named religious denominations. It was effected by the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution Act, 1972 which was approved by referendum on 7 December 1972 and signed into law on 5 January 1973.
    Contents

    Changes to the text

    Deletion of the entirety of Article 44.1.2:

    The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.

    Deletion of the entirety of Article 44.1.3:

    The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution.

    (Article 44.1.1 correspondingly renumbered as Article 44.1)

    [edit] Contemporary viewpoint

    In drafting the Irish constitution in 1936 and 1937, Éamon de Valera and his advisers chose to reflect what had been a contemporary willingness by constitution drafters and lawmakers in Europe to mention and in some ways recognise religion in explicit detail. This contrasted with many 1920s constitutions, notably the Irish Free State Constitution of 1922, which, following the secularism of the initial period following the First World War, simply prohibited any discrimination based on religion or avoided religious issues entirely.

    De Valera, his advisers (Fr. John Charles McQuaid, the future Archbishop of Dublin), and the men who put words to de Valera's concepts for the constitution (John Hearne and Mícheál Ó Gríobhtha) faced conflicting demands in his drafting of the article on religion.

    The demand from conservative Roman Catholics that Catholicism be established as the state religion of Ireland;

    Protestants' fears of discrimination.

    Prevailing attitudes of anti-semitism.

    The fact that most people in Ireland belonged to some religion, and that the education system and to a lesser extent the health system were denominational in structure, with Roman Catholicism, the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church, the Methodist Church, the Jewish community and others running their own schools and non-governmental agencies.

    De Valera's solution was Article 44. In contemporary terms, it marked a defeat for conservative Catholics, and Pope Pius XI explicitly withheld his approval from it:

    Catholicism was not made the state church.

    Catholicism was given an undefined "special position" on the basis of being the church of the majority. This was not consistent with the stance of pre-Vatican II Catholicism, which claimed the right to legal and political influence on the basis of the claimed objective truth of its teachings rather than the size of its following.

    Other religions were named and recognised on a lower level. The use of the Church of Ireland's official name antagonised conservative Catholics, who saw Catholicism as being the proper and rightful "church of Ireland".

    The Jewish community in Ireland was also given recognition. The explicit granting of a right to exist to the Jewish faith in Ireland marked a significant difference to the legal approach to Jewish rights in other European states, though contemporary Irish society was far from free of anti-semitism.

    Though perceived in retrospect as a sectarian article, Article 44 was praised in 1937 by leaders of Irish Protestant churches (notably the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin) and by Jewish groups. Conservative Catholics condemned it as "liberal".

    When the contents of Article 44 were put to Pope Pius XI by Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli (later Pope Pius XII), the pope stated in diplomatic language: "We do not approve, nor do we not disapprove - we will remain silent". It was said that the Vatican was privately more appreciative of the constitution, and Pius XII later praised it.[1]
    [edit] Viewpoint in the 1970s

    By 1972 an article once condemned by critics as liberal and indeed by some as offensive to Catholicism, had come to be seen as out of place, dated, and potentially discriminatory to Protestants. The "special position" of the Catholic Church had granted to that church, albeit in an undefined manner, was a special status that was out of step with post-Vatican II Catholic thinking on the relationships between the churches. The Protestant churches, though they had declined in adherents, were more outspoken and willing to express their unhappiness than they had been in the Ireland of the 1920s and 1930s, when many were fearful that criticism of the Irish state would be seen as criticism of Irish independence and so implicitly a preference for the British regime that had ruled Ireland before 1922.

    In addition, in the rapprochement between Northern Ireland and what was now known as the Republic of Ireland, many southerners perceived the "special position" as a barrier between a north-south relationship and even a potential source of discrimination against minorities. In addition the explicit recognition of certain denominations was seen as unnecessary because of the provisions Article 44.2 which contains guarantees of freedom of worship and against religious discrimination. Though the changes shown above are those made to the English language version of the constitution, constitutionally it is the Irish text that takes precedence.

    This Fifth Amendment was introduced by the Fianna Fáil government of Jack Lynch and supported by every other major political party. The Catholic Church did not voice any objection to the amendment but it was opposed by some conservative Catholics. Some leading members of the Church of Ireland and the Jewish Community said during the campaign that while they appreciated the Article's recognition of their existence (and in the case of the Jewish Community, their right to exist, in contrast to anti-Jewish laws in other states) in 1937, it was no longer needed in the 1970s and had lost its usefulness.

    The referendum on the amendment occurred on the same day as the referendum on the Fourth Amendment which lowered the voting age to eighteen. The Fifth Amendment was approved by 721,003 (84.4%) in favour and 133,430 (15.6%) against.

    Having completed its passage through the Oireachtas and been adopted by the people, it was enacted by being signed into constitutional law by the President of Ireland, the man who had drafted the original article, Éamon de Valera.

    I may have missed it as I am reading on a phone, but does it recognise the non-religious?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    marketty wrote: »
    Wow

    I hear they eat their first born too

    unless you have untenable proof there is not a God, wont be a second coming and the bible is a load of rubbish and i said untenable then i would suggest you start paying attention to this pivotal unique moment in irish and world history.

    Details of our new flag, details of the kingdom of Ireland based on 32 counties and details or our new currency available at this link http://stores.lulu.com/2012 free of charge the name of the file you need is "KINGDOM OF IRELAND" and when you read the details of our new flag, currency and Kingdom you will eat humble pie......
    320


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Oh FFS. Do I move this to Conspiracy Theories or After Hours? :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    So, apart from the babble at the end, the constitution recognises me as a citizen, despite not being Christian. Still don't where to stand on that, I live in theocratic constitutional democracy, according that that document. If the proportion of Christians in this country coutinues to fall, would you see a need to amend this, as it is clearly discriminatory against non-Christians? Is discrimination a Christian teaching?

    its not a question worth answering because the number of christians will be on the increase very very soon.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    source wrote: »
    You need to familiarise yourself with the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution, which was signed into law on 05/01/73:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

    the removal of special mentions or favours towards the vatican doesnt change the fact we are christian nation whom believes in God and await a second coming, the vatican teachings nor beliefs override our constitution and besides the vatican is the whore of babylon from the book of revelation " Fallen Fallen, Babylon has Fallen"....good riddance to bad rubbish


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    RE: untenable proof

    1) There is no such thing as proof outside of mathematics, which itself is an abstraction.

    2) Since god/s are defined as supernatural, it is not possible for something existing in the natural world to test for the supernatural.

    As a test, could someone provide untenable proof that Thor does not exist. Cheers.

    Glad to have cleared that up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Oh FFS. Do I move this to Conspiracy Theories or After Hours? :D

    AH! More fun!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭source


    selfrep wrote: »
    unless you have untenable proof there is not a God, wont be a second coming and the bible is a load of rubbish and i said untenable then i would suggest you start paying attention to this pivotal unique moment in irish and world history.

    Details of our new flag, details of the kingdom of Ireland based on 32 counties and details or our new currency available at this link http://stores.lulu.com/2012 free of charge the name of the file you need is "KINGDOM OF IRELAND" and when you read the details of our new flag, currency and Kingdom you will eat humble pie......
    320

    Do you have untenable proof that there is a god?

    All any church can say is that you have to have faith and believe in a divine power.

    Bull plop.

    Bet you don't believe in the theory of evolution either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    selfrep wrote: »
    So, apart from the babble at the end, the constitution recognises me as a citizen, despite not being Christian. Still don't where to stand on that, I live in theocratic constitutional democracy, according that that document. If the proportion of Christians in this country coutinues to fall, would you see a need to amend this, as it is clearly discriminatory against non-Christians? Is discrimination a Christian teaching?

    its not a question worth answering because the number of christians will be on the increase very very soon.....

    Or because you can't answer it while maintaining interal consistency. I boxed you into that corner very nicely.

    :-)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    source wrote: »
    Do you have untenable proof that there is a god?

    All any church can say is that you have to have faith and believe in a divine power.

    Bull plop.

    Bet you don't believe in the theory of evolution either.

    wait for the ark of the covenent to be discovered under the hill of tara, why do you think tara is known as the seat of the high king of Ireland....


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    Or because you can't answer it while maintaining interal consistency. I boxed you into that corner very nicely.

    :-)

    you didnt box me into any corner, the constitution will never be changed to ommit beliefs in God EVER and only those with the marking of the beast 666 deny God and his existence and his son and his sons second coming and they do their utmost to discredit anyone who highlights their darkness....furthermore the job of satan is to lead as many souls astray so that they are not prepared for the second coming.....with you sir he has won a victory with me he has lost.....and its you thats in a dark corner ......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭source


    selfrep wrote: »
    wait for the ark of the covenent to be discovered under the hill of tara, why do you think tara is known as the seat of the high king of Ireland....

    Because that's where it is believed in Irish mythology/history the high king was located??????

    What does the seat of the high king have to do with the ark of the covenant.............................Also, just as I thought, you have no evidence of the existence of the Gods.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭Bosco boy


    Is there a full moon by any chance?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭source


    OP you do realise the bible, quoran, torah etc etc were all written by humans, who decided what stories were put in.

    Jesus was a living, breathing human being, I fully believe the person existed and that he was spreading a message of good will. But to say that he was a supernatural being is folly, and a thing that is better left to children's stories. I put much more weight behind science which can produce evidence as to the why's and when's of the universe.

    Sure wasn't the world supposed to end this year.....or was it last year???? Either way......we're having this conversation on the planet Earth. So EVIDENCE would lead me to believe that it didn't happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    source wrote: »
    Because that's where it is believed the high king was located??????

    What does the seat of the high king have to do with the ark of the covenant.............................Also, just as I thought, you have no evidence of the existence of a god or Gods.

    the prophet jeremiah was instructed by god to bring the Ark of the covenant to ireland along with a descendent of the family from King David to Ireland to marry an irish King and to have offspring so as to continue the royal blood line of David and bring us the messiah the second time...... this is all historical facts those whom disbelieve it dont want it to be true for fear they might be wrong....the fear of being wrong in people who dont believe in god is a fear they will do their utmost to avoid exists...... http://jahtruth.net/jere.htm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭silja


    Op, since you keep refering to the bible... you do realise most of the conditions listed for the second coming have not been fullfilled?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    The
    Prophetic
    Book
    Of
    Kells
    800 AD

    The Monks of Columbkille were now faced with the biggest task of their life. They had to create a book and encode it with the secrets of Ireland, the details of the Second Coming. In 716 AD The Columbkille Monastery established in Iona accepted the Roman church date for Easter and used this in their teachings to predict the Second Coming.

    The Book of Kells, as its name suggests originates from a monastery in Kells, County Meath. It dates to around 800 AD though it was over 200 years in the making. It is a series of wonderful manuscripts and ancient prophecies regarding the future of Ireland. It is indeed the bible of Ireland and yet little attention is paid to it. It features the oldest Madonna and Child manuscript in the western world. When one sees the intricacy of the book it becomes quite clear that even back then they wished to capture our attention regarding the Gospel and Our Lady and namely that of the promise contained in the scriptures regarding the Second Coming. Foundation work for the book was also done in Iona, Scotland but it was taken to Kells for completion and safe keeping. It is the map of salvation for the world, a prediction that Ireland would be home to The Second Coming.

    Although damaged in various raids the book survived, thankfully and although misread and misunderstood many people are beginning to realise the importance of this sacred manuscript. This group of Monks who spent years creating this work of art were trying to tell us about the importance of The Madonna and Child both in Ireland and the world. Indeed The Madonna of Ireland and the Holy Family appeared in County Mayo in 1879 in an apparition cast in mysterious light to fifteen people in a prophetic vision predicting the Second Coming. Over the years however this apparition has been discounted by many as nonsense. Few believed that if indeed the apparition was true it would come true and fewer believed that Our Lady would once again return to The Emerald Isle to explain this mysterious appearance, after all lightning does not strike twice……….

    The Madonna and child manuscript in the book of Kells is a prophecy that Mary would come to Ireland and illuminate us. These monks wanted to make their work as illuminated as possible so as to draw our attention to the importance of certain aspects of the bible namely the Gospels and Mary because they knew as prophesised that one day Ireland would be the land of the Rising Son.

    461px-KellsFol007vMadonnaChild_V2.jpg

    What baffles Theologians most is the four bodies inside the piece of art. These four bodies are crouched inside small half circular troughs, burial chambers, like those of Newgrange. However only two of these troughs contain bodies the third is empty. The 4 Angels and The 4 Masters were vitally important. It is the first work of art that features Mary as both The Madonna with her Son and as one of The Archangels.

    Also baffling are the six men facing away from the Madonna and Child in disrespect. This a prophecy that Ireland would turn its back on The Madonna. Six men of course representing six thousand years, 4004 BC-2000AD, one man for each thousand years. Their backs are turned, when their least expecting it the Madonna and Child will show up.

    There was however a lot more they knew and which they encrypted into their manuscripts. In 1049 an unknown Irishman, Aaron of Cologne who was a Monk set about on fulfilling a mission. Having read the Book of Kells he headed to Krakow in Poland where he was consecrated a Bishop. The Irish were doing their part in the redemption of mankind even in 1049. Pope John Paul II himself was also a Bishop of Krakow.

    The monks used animal hairs and wove them intricately into several pages. These animal hairs however were not native to Ireland. Columbkille had received a vision via the Madonna of Ireland during which she entrusted him with some secrets. The Queen of Ireland, Our Lady of Tara revealed to Columbkille what was underneath The Holy Mount or Hill of Tara. His monks also used colours and paints that were not native to Europe. How the book came about in its era is a miracle in itself.

    Having learned the secrets of Tara, Columbkille in return secretly built tunnels that led underneath The Holy Mountain. From there they retrieved their tools to make the Book of Kells.

    So secret was their mission they had to travel from Meath to Scotland to pass on their findings to their fellow Monks.

    They received the details of The Second Coming from the Madonna of Ireland and were told it must remain a secret. “Our Lady of Light will watch over the land of Eire.” Throughout the book of Kells a number of recurring themes and prophecies are predicted about Ireland :

    The Second Coming will occur and will have something to do with a book. The Angels, The Son and the four Gospel writers all appear throughout holding a book. Throughout the folios there are also several scenes with mice and rats (pests) nibbling at the eucharist and running away with it in their mouth, this reflects the battle Jesus will have when he returns with his own priests, they are the mice and rats, the pests who ran off with their own version of events. Also depicted throught the pages are men pulling their hair out and tugging at each others beards. These men also depict the priests who will be tearing their own hair out when they realise the eucharist mistakes they made. Just as God enlightened prophets like Isaiah, Ezekiel and Malachi to warn the people of Israel about the first coming of the messiah, so too did he use Irish prophets and priests to prepare the people of Ireland for the second coming of his son.

    Certain elements of the Gospels are highly important and folio 33r shows the Tree of Life. Another folio depicts The Son as having a crown, thus predicting his victory and he is holding a book.

    460px-KellsFol032vChristEnthroned.jpg

    The crowned Saviour holding a book. When the Son returns he will fulfil this prophecy by writing a book which will contain the details about The Second Coming.

    HINT HINT.... FREE OF CHARGE
    320

    The manuscripts were prepared with great detail in order to prepare the Irish for The Second Coming in some way shape or form.


    In 1007 the Book of Kells was stolen, pages removed, pages that predicted the location and calculations pertaining to the Second Coming. It was retrieved two months later. The retrieved book however was no use without the missing manuscripts and the missing manuscripts no use without the book. The codes for the creation of mankind and for Judgement Day were now no longer secrets that could be passed on.

    When the book fell into Bishop Usshers hands he used it to calculate the date of creation some 600 years later. Without the lost pages however he was unable to predict the Judgement Day or Second Coming. When the Second Coming happens whomever it is will take comfort in knowing these monks predicted it.

    For 1,200 years The Catholic Church and Leading scholars whom have studied this book were all in agreement that the book contained two errors.
    1) The geanology of Jesus had one extra name inserted that differed from the Gospel of Luke. An extra mans name would bring us the Son of Man.
    2) Matthew 10:34 reads “I come not to bring peace but a sword” but the monks put the following phrase in “I come not only to bring peace but also joy”.

    When one sees the intricacy of this book it is clearly evident that these Monks were guided and these were not mistakes but prophecies about The Second Coming. The Messiah the second time around would be brought to us by one other person hence the extra name in the genealogy and when he does come he will bring both peace and joy to the world. He will be the son of a man. Let us hope when Trinity College; where the book now resides; eventually realise the importance of this prophetic manuscript they return it to its rightful home in Kells, County Meath.


    Upon his return the Son of Man will fulfil the Gospels and Book of Kells prophecies thus proving Ireland is the Kingdom of God. This will be his calling. The Vatican don’t hold this ancient prophecy about the Second Coming with any major regard thus showing they too will learn from the Son when he returns. If they choose to listen that is their own business.
    How I wish that someone would remember my words and record them in a book. JOB 19:23


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    silja wrote: »
    Op, since you keep refering to the bible... you do realise most of the conditions listed for the second coming have not been fullfilled?

    'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME acts 2:2

    Eclipse June 2011 :
    lunar.jpg

    Isaiah 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
    Joel 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
    Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
    Acts 2:19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
    Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

    I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, REV 6:12


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    The
    Prophecy
    Of
    Malachy
    1139

    Back to Ireland and The Archangel Mary was once again revealing herself in the Emerald Isle. This time with a prophecy to do with the Second Coming of her Son and that it would occur in Navan, County Meath.

    Flag of Meath - King upon a throne :
    detail

    Saint Malachy 1094 -1148

    There are few aware of this man’s existence let alone his prophetic visions. Over the years this has suited many people. Born in 1094 in Armagh, Ireland he was ordained a priest in 1119. Amongst the other titles he earned included Abbot of Bangor, Bishop of Connor and in 1132 he became Primate of Armagh. Before becoming Primate he had to purchase The Staff of Jesus from Niall of The 9 Hostages. Niall you see not only had The Staff but he also had come in contact with the missing manuscripts from The Book of Kells. Along with purchasing the staff, Malachy it is alleged also purchased some of the missing manuscripts.

    Malachy was noted for his meekness, humility, obedience, modesty, diligence and dedication to his studies. He had the gift of prophecy and was blessed by the Holy Spirit. One can only assume that if the Holy Spirit inspired his visions then the same Holy Spirit would ensure these prophetic visions would come true. Saint Malachy was the first Irish saint to be canonised by Rome. Malachy spent much time in France at a monastery run by St Bernard of Clairvaux. St Bernard became a doctor of the church and he also had a complete devotion to Our Lady. Ironically enough St Bernard died on August 20th 1153, one day before the feast day of Our Lady of Knock which of course occurred some 800 years later. This great Irish prophet foretold the day and time of his own death. His last words to St Bernard “Always have faith in the Madonna of Ireland.” Nostradamus would use his writings in his own prophecies. The Vatican had never experienced such a gifted prophet before so much so they did not know what to do with him. What do you do with a man that predicts the Second Coming?

    During visions with Our lady of Navan, Malachy was given various phrases that would be in some way shape or form associated with the Second Coming of the Son of God. Our Lady also told Malachy that one of the next 111 Popes would be associated with the return of the Son and Saviour. Pope Benedict XVI is the last in this line of Popes. Just like there were prophecies about the first coming of the messiah, God was providing the Irish people and the world with a prophecy about the second coming of the Son. There would be 111 Popes before The Second Coming after which St Peter whom was the first Pope would reign again during Judgement. In other words when the son returns he would chose someone just as he chose St Peter to be the rock upon which he would continue to feed his flock and build his new church.

    Gloriae Olivae
    His glory and ambition will lead to the offering of the peace Branch.
    De Labore Solis
    The worker of The Sun (Son), of the eclipse of the Sun, Unique Childbirth. (Immaculate Conception)
    De Medietate Lunae
    Midpoint of the month, half moon.
    Flos Florum
    He will be youthful and blossom like a flower.

    Pastor Angelicus
    The shepherd will belong to the Angels.
    Fides Intrepida
    He will be loyal and undaunted.
    Religio Depopulata
    The ravaged will be in awe.
    Ignis Ardens
    With a glow of passion he will ignite a bright glowing flame.
    Lumen in Coelo
    Light of the world.
    Crux de Cruce
    Tormented and crucified. Cross from a Cross
    Aquila Rapax
    Grasp the silver eagle on the pole.
    Peregrinus Apostolicus
    A Pilgrim Pope.
    De Bona Religione
    Worshipping of a brave woman.
    Bellua Insatiabilis
    Insatiable beast (the battle against)
    Poenitentia Gloriosa
    Famous Penance
    Rastrum in Porta
    He will bring the people to the entrance gates
    De Flumine Magno
    A large Wave/flood
    Sydus Olorum
    New star in a constellation, evangelisation.
    Jucunditas Crucis
    Charming, remaining pleasant during crucifixion.
    In Tribulatione Pacis
    In the midst of distress comes Peace and Harmony.
    Gens Perversa
    Overthrow evil corruption of a nation.
    De Rore Coeli
    Rose Mary, Dew of Heaven
    Axis in Medietate Signi
    A sign from heaven, pole/axis.
    Aesculapii Pharmacum
    Poisonous Snake
    De fide Petri
    Faith of Peter
    Hyacinthus Medicorum
    Fourth finger of the hand, blue cloth/sash
    De Craticula Politiana
    Iron Curtain, Polish, Grid Iron
    Rosa Composita
    Rose Collector (through Rosary)
    Draco Depressus
    Crushing of the dragon, evil.
    Ex Undarum Benedictione
    A consecrated blessing/wave
    Signum Ostiense
    Image/statue is the doorway
    Avis Ostiensis
    The bird at the doorway.
    Comes Laurentius
    A follower, Adorning a laurel crown
    Canonicus de Latere
    Constructor of a cathedral, brickwork by a Canon.
    Comes Signatus
    Designate and put in order.
    De Schola Exiet
    Visible as a follower
    Ensis Laurentii
    With sword crowned with laurel.
    Sus in Cribro
    Sift through the pigs.
    Lux in Ostio
    A light to the doorway, entrance of the underworld.
    Ex Tetro Carcere
    Ugly Traps, released from prison.
    Via Transtiberina
    Journey beyond Tiber
    Inimicus Expulsus
    Enemy expelled
    Ex Castro Tiberis
    From the fort on the Tiber. As in, from The Vatican.

    The prophecy was hand delivered to the Pope by Malachy and from there we are told it went straight to the archives and very little was spoken about it. 400 years later it was stumbled upon and released in the public domain. What was not released was that it was a prophecy about one Pope that would preceed the second coming. Rumours began to surface that it was a prophecy about the next 111 popes and since then that is how the story was allowed to develop.

    We must once again remember the words of the famous Irish Prophet St. Columbkille “The clergy shall be led into error, by the misinterpretation of their readings.”


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    apollo.png

    The map of the second coming from israel to Ireland
    Ireland 588 A.D.
    The map of The Second Coming


    Skellig Michael – Great Rock of Michael.
    It is located eight miles off the tip of the Iveragh Peninsula off the coast of Kerry in Ireland and spans 44 acres. Few have been there, fewer know of its existence. It is the most sacred Christian foundation site in Europe where many a Saint spent time in idle prayer and received the powers to spread the word of God namely that of the Second Coming of the son of man. It was the focal point to train monks and pass on the secrets of Ireland to them. It was eternally blessed as was Ireland by The Madonna of Ireland and the Archangel Michael.

    Using a map one can trace a distinct line of pilgrimage sites that pass through France, Italy, Greece and end at Mount Carmel in the Palestine. This became known as the St Michael Axis and what is startling is that the axis passes through some of the worlds other famous sites dedicated to the Archangel Saint Michael.

    It is a steep rocky island that is accessed by sea. It stands 230 meters high and sitting almost atop of it is an ancient Irish Christian Monastery that can be traced back to 588 A.D. To access it one must climb 600 stone steps and standing at 714 feet above sea level one can stand in awe looking at this ancient settlement. There are 6 beehive huts, 2 oratories and some small terraces. One must ask oneself how the raw materials and manpower arrived in this remote location; its existence is a miracle in itself. The site was favoured by Hermits and Monks and the blessings of St Michael, the Patron Saint of the Island was received by all visitors. It was inhabited for 600 years before the monks moved to a monastery on the mainland but continued to be visited by pilgrims. It survived many raids and attacks remaining virtually unscathed almost as if protected as sacred ground.

    The slate huts look round from the outside but inside they are rectangular and have basic shelving and sleeping platforms. The terraces were used as small vegetable patches which provided food. Fish and eggs were also the stable diet. There are three wells on the islet each was said to have their own healing properties. On the Southern most peak of the Island lies an oratory which is inaccessible today.

    It is said to be the final battle ground of good versus evil in Ireland and is the point where St Patrick finally declared that he had rid Ireland of the snakes (evil). St Michael indeed is always seen with a sword battling the forces of evil.

    Today it is a UNESCO World Heritage Site and a nature reserve. It is exceptionally preserved and is a classic example of just how sparce a life these future missionaries adapted to in order to preserve and live their lives according to the word of God.

    It became the training ground for those taking part in the redemption of mankind. A similar axis exists in the UK which ends around Walsingham. Many people believe the axis of Saint Michael is a map linking the first coming of the messiah to the Mount Carmel area and his second coming to Ireland. Many more would say this is nonsense but you should have nothing to do with them. One of God’s most revered Angels does not leave a distinct line across a portion of the world unless he has very good reason to. Again there are simply no coincidences in Providence. The powers these Angels possess come from the creator and to doubt their power is to doubt the creators power.... Be totally on your guard then.


    The Michael-Apollo Line passes from northeast to southwest through :
    Skellig Michael,
    St. Michael's chapel on Carn Brea in Cornwall,
    St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall,
    Mont St. Michel in Brittany,
    Bourges,
    Sacra di San Michele in Piedmont,
    San Michele at Castiglione di Garfagna,
    Perugia,
    Monte Sant' Angelo, Monte Gargano, the site of the first recorded appearance of the Archangel Michael.
    Kerkyas
    Delphi
    Athens
    Delos
    Lindos
    Mount Carmel in the Holy Land


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