The future of Ireland

JustinDee

shuffol wrote: »

The immediate requirements as I see it.

- blood in new option at TH(Hagan)

- blood in new option to give competition to 2nd row, cullen too old and not good enough at international level

- blood in new option in the backrow, Ferris is injury prone, Heaslip is out of form at 8, Leamy shouldnt be near the squad unless he gets his place back for Munster, Jennings is questionable at this level.

- blood in new option at 10 to deal with ROGs impending retirement, cant have a situation where Sexton has no competition when this occurs.

- Replace D'arcy

- Blood in new option at 13. (NOT EARLS)

The team doesnt need radical changes but the squad will need a bit of freshening up, I think we need to be realistic about the next 6N, we've England and France away and our chances of winning it are slim, should we sacrifice results with a view to building a side capable of winning it in 2013.

Positions I'd say needing attention:
- Two props will be needed as Healy will likely be only survivor in 2015.
- Options at inside and outside centres and I do think Earls will end up at outside centre. One bolter for inside would be Luke Marshall.
- The likes of Nagle and Ryan for Lock.

padraig.od

GerM wrote: »

That side would be hammered, tolosenc. We can't sacrifice an entire 6N for development, it's the bread and butter of the game in the country and the financial ramifications would be severe. Aside from that, a good number of those players aren't up to standard in your average HEC match, let alone an international test. Morris, McGrath, McLaughlin (as a lock) and Marshall have done nothing to suggest they're capable of playing 6N rugby. They struggle to get a run for their provinces in the ML. Humphreys turns 30 in the spring. We need to bring through new blood but it needs to be done gently with a couple of players at a time. I'd be happy to see Spence, Tuohy and Hagan getting a couple of starts in the 6N and go from there. We have players that are young enough in all other positions (aside from 12 probably) that are capable of playing internationals rugby for several years yet. Next summer's tour is where we should be blooding a few more players and then, come 2013, we should have an idea of whether we've found our new players.

Its a ridiculous selection to be fair. We're in a bit of a catch 22, it has to start with the provinces blooding these players before the national team can pick them.

McGrath? Has he started a Pro12 match? Archer was shocking this weekend, Hagan won't get his game when Ross is back. Toner and McLach won't be near the Leinster 2nd row in big matches this year, Nagle struggles to make the Munster bench. Dom Ryan and Ruddock won't start at HC match when the internationals are back. Faloon can't get a game at Ulster.

Marshall isn't up to it. The Fitz at 12 idea hasn't really worked to date, Spence is a 12, not a 13 at Ulster while Cave is about. Dave Kearney and Conway, jesus wept. Why don't we make Joe Schmidt coach, change the national team name from Ireland to Leinster, sing Molly Malone for the anthem and play in blue? Would that make you happy? Glad to see D'Arcy didn't make your squad though!

Can't believe I bothered to respond to that!

shuffol

padraig.od wrote: »

Its a ridiculous selection to be fair. We're in a bit of a catch 22, it has to start with the provinces blooding these players before the national team can pick them.

McGrath? Has he started a Pro12 match? Archer was shocking this weekend, Hagan won't get his game when Ross is back. Toner and McLach won't be near the Leinster 2nd row in big matches this year, Nagle struggles to make the Munster bench. Dom Ryan and Ruddock won't start at HC match when the internationals are back. Faloon can't get a game at Ulster.

Marshall isn't up to it. The Fitz at 12 idea hasn't really worked to date, Spence is a 12, not a 13 at Ulster while Cave is about. Dave Kearney and Conway, jesus wept. Why don't we make Joe Schmidt coach, change the national team name from Ireland to Leinster, sing Molly Malone for the anthem and play in blue? Would that make you happy? Glad to see D'Arcy didn't make your squad though!

Can't believe I bothered to respond to that!

This is one of the reasons I think we'd benefit from a foreign coach outside the current system, I think we could do with a coach who'll pick youngsters not yet regulary starting for their provinces, why shouldnt he? If he's looking to build a side for the future he shouldnt be afraid to pick guys who he thinks have a real chance of becoming top internationals rather than guys who are benefitting from excessive loyalty at their provinces or just seen as a safe pair of hands.

GerM

Its a ridiculous selection to be fair. We're in a bit of a catch 22, it has to start with the provinces blooding these players before the national team can pick them.

McGrath? Has he started a Pro12 match? Archer was shocking this weekend, Hagan won't get his game when Ross is back. Toner and McLach won't be near the Leinster 2nd row in big matches this year, Nagle struggles to make the Munster bench. Dom Ryan and Ruddock won't start at HC match when the internationals are back. Faloon can't get a game at Ulster.

Marshall isn't up to it. The Fitz at 12 idea hasn't really worked to date, Spence is a 12, not a 13 at Ulster while Cave is about. Dave Kearney and Conway, jesus wept. Why don't we make Joe Schmidt coach, change the national team name from Ireland to Leinster, sing Molly Malone for the anthem and play in blue? Would that make you happy? Glad to see D'Arcy didn't make your squad.

Can't believe I bothered to respond to that!

You're going to the other extreme, in fairness. Marshall isn't up to it? On the basis of very limited time he's been seen? He has fantastic potential and shouldn't be written off so bluntly. Spence is a 13 and is a very good one. Fitz has played really well at 12. He was MOTM last week and did well again this week although I believe he isn't particularly happy in that position. I'd be very surprised if Hagan didn't start a one or two HEC pool matches and I can see Nagle getting some pitch time for Munster also in the HEC.

davegrohl48

Lets all hope Fitz keeps up his good form at 12. From reviews of games the news looks positive. I just hope if his form continues he is let have a crack at the six nations at 12.
What I would like about Fitz is that if he gets past the first tackle he should be gone into open space. Gains us field position and gives us a real try scoring threat in opposition 22.
He should also be up quick in the defensive line.

padraig.od

shuffol wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I think we'd benefit from a foreign coach outside the current system, I think we could do with a coach who'll pick youngsters not yet regulary starting for their provinces, why shouldnt he? If he's looking to build a side for the future he shouldnt be afraid to pick guys who he thinks have a real chance of becoming top internationals rather than guys who are benefitting from excessive loyalty at their provinces or just seen as a safe pair of hands.

Why shouldn't the Irish coach pick players who can't get a game for their provinces... really? At least he'd have the "they just need a run of matches to get up to speed" excuse for when we get hammered.

padraig.od

GerM wrote: »

You're going to the other extreme, in fairness. Marshall isn't up to it? On the basis of very limited time he's been seen? He has fantastic potential and shouldn't be written off so bluntly. Spence is a 13 and is a very good one. Fitz has played really well at 12. He was MOTM last week and did well again this week although I believe he isn't particularly happy in that position. I'd be very surprised if Hagan didn't start a one or two HEC pool matches and I can see Nagle getting some pitch time for Munster also in the HEC.

On the basis of last weekend, that he'll be at best 2nd choice when Pienaar comes back and that at this stage Porter looks a better long term bet. Glad to see Fitz is doing the job at 12, hopefully he can keep it up. We need to be rid of D'Arcy asap! Spence plays inside Cave for Ulster when they are both fit. If his coach won't pick him at 13 why should the national team.

I'd be surprised if Hagan did start a HC match, unless Leinster have qualification safe. Is there 23 man squads in the HC? Feek hasn't coached him yet either, has he? Ross is a safe pair of hands and will be around for a while. Pitch time is different to game time. Pitch time is 20 minutes at the end with the game in the bag. Nagle didn't do much when he came on last weekend and looks more a replacement for POC (who doesn't need to be replaced yet) than DOC. Foley is the man to watch down there...

GerM

Apologies, I assumed for some reason that it was Luke Marshall you referred to. Paul Marshall shouldn't be near an Irish squad. He's completely inconsistent and was shocking against Treviso. Spence should hang onto the 13 jersey. He was moved to 12 to accommodate Cave but when it comes to a straight shoot out, I envisage him taking the 13 jersey with Wallace at 12 as they lined out last season's HEC.

I think Hagan will get a game or two in the pool stages. Schmidt has shown he's happy to rotate his team for different games as dictated by tactics and if we're looking to play a more open game he'll change it up as with VDM and Healy last season. Nagle is just back from injury and needs time. Himself and Foley are quite different players. I would rate Foley quite highly and would have liked to see Leinster making a move for him when it was apparent how short on locks we were becoming last season.

sydthebeat

anyone for trying felix jones at 13

CatFromHue

sydthebeat wrote: »

anyone for trying felix jones at 13

I couldn't see it happening. He has a lot more potential at full back than at 13. If he hadn't have been injured he'd have been second choice to Kearney at 15 for Ireland.

Fireball07

tolosenc wrote: »

40-man provisional squad I'd have before the 6N, at this point:

LH: Healy, McGrath, Wilkinson
HK: Best, Cronin, Sherry(no Struass yet )
TH: Hagan, Ross, Archer
SR: POC, Toner, Tuohy, McLaughlin, Nagle, Ryan
BR: O'Brien, Heaslip, Ruddock, Ferris, Dom Ryan, Jennings, Faloon
SH: Reddan, Boss, Marshall
FH: Sexton, Madigan, Humphreys
12: Fitzgerald, McFadden, Wallace
13: BOD, Spence
WG: Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Dave Kearney, Conway
FB: Rob Kearney, Morris

*Bold: Starters.
*Italic: Bench.
*Red: Outside of a tournament 30.

I assume this isn't entirely serious...I'm all for blooding young players but you have to be realistic. And I hate to say it but Munster seem to have a surprisingly small representation there.

If you're throwing players in the deep end, why not Sherry?? But I agree Best should be starting at this stage.

POC will start, if fit, he's on a completely different level to any of the rest of our second rows. Maybe Tuohy/Ryan will start beside him...McLaughlin playing 2nd row is an option but he's never done it to date and if he's not getting regular gametime for Leinster, he can't start. And I think Toner is behind Tuohy and Ryan.

Ferris can't be dropped if he's fit, he was arguably our best player. Obviously form is relevant too but if any of the 3 were to be dropped (which they shouldn't be), it should be Heaslip. And Faloon? Don't think he was what it takes- POM should be in the squad to gain experience there.

And Marshall ahead of Conor Murray??????? Crazy talk.

What's the point in having Humphreys ahead of Keatley?? He's nearly 30...you might as well have ROG there (which I think he should be).

I don't mind Paddy Wallace but he's 32 and never going to start for Ireland so he should go. Perhaps a bit harsh discarding D'Arcy completely though Fitzgerald looks a good option to start 12. Maybe give EOM/Marshall/Cave time in the squad. Don't think it's time to drop BOD yet.

Wings- there's no way Earls should be dropped for Kearney and Conway. Just no.

And Felix Jones is still the next best full-back in the country.

smurphy29

sydthebeat wrote: »

anyone for trying felix jones at 13

No. These hare-brained 'solutions' are not what we need. There's no need for panic, just a proper succession plan. Just because BOD, POC etc. won't be around in the World Cup doesn't mean we need to get rid of them now. BOD needs a good rest and to get his shoulder fully sorted before coming back.

What we need to do is start grooming the next generation, by dripping them into the team. This Six Nations we should look at maybe 4 or 5 players, for a match or two anyway. Nevin Spence is worth a look at 12 or 13 for a game, alongside someone experienced. Fitzgerald at 12 has a lot of appeal for me. I've been a huge fan of Dom Ryan for some time. He still has work to do, but is in the classic 7 mould, which we can no longer ignore. I'd give him a start somewhere. Dan Tuohy is a footballing second row, which would give us something different. Give him a game. Devin Toner played badly last season, but he was impressive on saturday, and if he can improve his obvious deficiencies, can certainly be of value.

thomond2006

padraig.od wrote: »

Its a ridiculous selection to be fair. We're in a bit of a catch 22, it has to start with the provinces blooding these players before the national team can pick them.

McGrath? Has he started a Pro12 match? Archer was shocking this weekend, Hagan won't get his game when Ross is back. Toner and McLach won't be near the Leinster 2nd row in big matches this year, Nagle struggles to make the Munster bench. Dom Ryan and Ruddock won't start at HC match when the internationals are back. Faloon can't get a game at Ulster.

I hope Schmidt rotates Hagan and Ross like he did with Reddan and Boss last season. If so, Hagan will get plenty of gametime.

totallegend

thomond2006 wrote: »

I hope Schmidt rotates Hagan and Ross like he did with Reddan and Boss last season. If so, Hagan will get plenty of gametime.

I would like to see this happening to some extent and it would be great for Ireland if it does, but don't forget that Leinster have signed Nathan White at tight-head as well. At this stage, it looks like Hagan is ahead of him in the pecking order but that could change.

I don't know why people are worried about tight-head anyway, sure Buckley is only 30, loads of game-time left in him.

padraig.od

Fireball07 wrote: »

I assume this isn't entirely serious...I'm all for blooding young players but you have to be realistic. And I hate to say it but Munster seem to have a surprisingly small representation there.

If you're throwing players in the deep end, why not Sherry?? But I agree Best should be starting at this stage.

POC will start, if fit, he's on a completely different level to any of the rest of our second rows. Maybe Tuohy/Ryan will start beside him...McLaughlin playing 2nd row is an option but he's never done it to date and if he's not getting regular gametime for Leinster, he can't start. And I think Toner is behind Tuohy and Ryan.

Ferris can't be dropped if he's fit, he was arguably our best player. Obviously form is relevant too but if any of the 3 were to be dropped (which they shouldn't be), it should be Heaslip. And Faloon? Don't think he was what it takes- POM should be in the squad to gain experience there.

And Marshall ahead of Conor Murray??????? Crazy talk.

What's the point in having Humphreys ahead of Keatley?? He's nearly 30...you might as well have ROG there (which I think he should be).

I don't mind Paddy Wallace but he's 32 and never going to start for Ireland so he should go. Perhaps a bit harsh discarding D'Arcy completely though Fitzgerald looks a good option to start 12. Maybe give EOM/Marshall/Cave time in the squad. Don't think it's time to drop BOD yet.

Wings- there's no way Earls should be dropped for Kearney and Conway. Just no.

And Felix Jones is still the next best full-back in the country.

Earls should be sent to tackling school. He's awful at it. Hits too high, tries to wrap the player up but often falls off. He should have been visualising knocking Davies on his arse not a RWC final.

Philips try should have finished D'Arcy's international career (well actually that "tackle" on Rougerie in the 6N should have). For a player of such experience to just switch off like that.... I almost put my foot through the telly.

davegrohl48

Rougerie is one of the most powerful backs in the game.
Darcy was left on his own guarding the blindside. Yes he stepped in a bit, but someone should have been covering behind. You always guard a blindside with at least two players.

padraig.od

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Rougerie is one of the most powerful backs in the game.
Darcy was left on his own guarding the blindside. Yes he stepped in a bit, but someone should have been covering behind. You always guard a blindside with at least two players.

No he wasn't, he pushed ROG away and sent him towards the open side. He then leans up beside a ruck, leaving probably the most dangerous breaking SH in the NH about 5 metres room to score a try. He switched off, it was inexcusable.

This is probably not the thread for this. He shouldn't be near a squad again IMO.

Chucky the tree

Always laugh at people who'll ask current players to be dropped like Earls and D'arcy for making some odd mistakes and then expecting some young lad who can't even get regular Rabbo gametime to step up to the plate and be flawless.

wixfjord

padraig.od wrote: »

No he wasn't, he pushed ROG away and sent him towards the open side. He then leans up beside a ruck, leaving probably the most dangerous breaking SH in the NH about 5 metres room to score a try. He switched off, it was inexcusable.

This is probably not the thread for this. He shouldn't be near a squad again IMO.

I'd wager that you started watching rugby about three weeks ago?

sydthebeat

smurphy29 wrote: »

These hare-brained 'solutions' are not what we need.

i was just throwing it out there.... he wouldnt be the first full back / wing to be moved to centre

see Rougerie or Jamie Roberts for example.....

If the rest of the world are looking towards big bulky crash centres.... should we be suggesting guys like earls etc?

padraig.od

wixfjord wrote: »

I'd wager that you started watching rugby about three weeks ago?

I'd wager I didn't. Rebuild needed, the game has moved on from smaller backs (centres especially), he's over 30. We have to look to the future. Be that McFadden, Fitz, Spence or whoever.

shuffol

totallegend wrote: »

I would like to see this happening to some extent and it would be great for Ireland if it does, but don't forget that Leinster have signed Nathan White at tight-head as well. At this stage, it looks like Hagan is ahead of him in the pecking order but that could change.

I don't know why people are worried about tight-head anyway, sure Buckley is only 30, loads of game-time left in him.

I think thats exactly what people are worried about

BoardsMember

padraig.od wrote: »

Earls should be sent to tackling school. He's awful at it. Hits too high, tries to wrap the player up but often falls off. He should have been visualising knocking Davies on his arse not a RWC final.

Couldnt agree more. He has no place on a HEC team, let alone an international team, until he learns to tackle. He will be targetted again and again for his weak defense, and the thought of him playing at 13 actually upsets me.

Cpt_Blackbeard

tolosenc wrote: »

40-man provisional squad I'd have before the 6N, at this point:

LH: Healy, McGrath, [COLOR="Red"]Wilkinson[/COLOR]
HK: Best, Cronin, Sherry(no Struass yet )
TH: Hagan, Ross, [COLOR="Red"]Archer[/COLOR]
SR: POC, Toner, Tuohy, McLaughlin, [COLOR="Red"]Nagle[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]Ryan[/COLOR]
BR: O'Brien, Heaslip, Ruddock, Ferris, Dom Ryan, [COLOR="Red"]Jennings[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]Faloon[/COLOR]
SH: Reddan, Boss, Marshall
FH: Sexton, [COLOR="Red"]Madigan[/COLOR], Humphreys
12: Fitzgerald, McFadden, [COLOR="Red"]Wallace[/COLOR]
13: BOD, Spence
WG: Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, [COLOR="Red"]Dave Kearney[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]Conway[/COLOR]
FB: Rob Kearney, Morris

*Bold: Starters.
*Italic: Bench.
*[COLOR="Red"]Red[/COLOR]: Outside of a tournament 30.

Most biased post I have (yes, me) ever seen on this board. It's the Irish team, not a revision of the Lulster team who opened the Aviva.

molloyjh

padraig.od wrote: »

No he wasn't, he pushed ROG away and sent him towards the open side. He then leans up beside a ruck, leaving probably the most dangerous breaking SH in the NH about 5 metres room to score a try. He switched off, it was inexcusable.

This is probably not the thread for this. He shouldn't be near a squad again IMO.

Oh for the love of God. Watch the try again. He pulled ROG back from the ruck and sent him in the direction of the blind-side. ROG then proceeded to dander over to the open-side behind him. I originally thought Darce was to blame but it's clear from the replay that he thought ROG was there - see 1:13 below.

While I do agree we need to start bringing along new talent, in a number of areas of the field, I'd rather we didn't for the right reasons as opposed to some ridiculous witch-hunt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssJR1zgtbaI

padraig.od

molloyjh wrote: »

Oh for the love of God. Watch the try again. He pulled ROG back from the ruck and sent him in the direction of the blind-side. ROG then proceeded to dander over to the open-side behind him. I originally thought Darce was to blame but it's clear from the replay that he thought ROG was there - see 1:13 below.

While I do agree we need to start bringing along new talent, in a number of areas of the field, I'd rather we didn't for the right reasons as opposed to some ridiculous witch-hunt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssJR1zgtbaI

Ha didn't spot that... burn the ROG witch!

molloyjh

padraig.od wrote: »

Ha didn't spot that... burn the ROG witch!

I'll get my pitch-fork...

Fireball07

padraig.od wrote: »

Earls should be sent to tackling school. He's awful at it. Hits too high, tries to wrap the player up but often falls off. He should have been visualising knocking Davies on his arse not a RWC final.

Philips try should have finished D'Arcy's international career (well actually that "tackle" on Rougerie in the 6N should have). For a player of such experience to just switch off like that.... I almost put my foot through the telly.

I'll agree Earls isn't the greatest tackler and will probably lose his place in the Irish team. But I'd definitely disagree with leaving him out of the squad entirely for Kearney and Conway, who will not be starting regularly for Leinster. I don't blame him as much for the Davies' try...Healy was primarily at fault there imo but the tackle on Roberts really exemplifies his problem. But he can learn and improve, he's still young, and I definitely don't think he should be discarded completely from the squad.

I agree it's time for someone else to start at 12, but maybe D'Arcy's experience could be useful in the squad for big games. Actually considering his lack of versatility (I know he used to play wing but can't see him ever being picked there again), maybe hw should go. But only if there are better alternatives.

padraig.od

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'll agree Earls isn't the greatest tackler and will probably lose his place in the Irish team. But I'd definitely disagree with leaving him out of the squad entirely for Kearney and Conway, who will not be starting regularly for Leinster. I don't blame him as much for the Davies' try...Healy was primarily at fault there imo but the tackle on Roberts really exemplifies his problem. But he can learn and improve, he's still young, and I definitely don't think he should be discarded completely from the squad.

I agree it's time for someone else to start at 12, but maybe D'Arcy's experience could be useful in the squad for big games. Actually considering his lack of versatility (I know he used to play wing but can't see him ever being picked there again), maybe hw should go. But only if there are better alternatives.

I never said that.

Fireball07

padraig.od wrote: »

I never said that.

I know you didn't but the poster I was responding to did. That's what I was complaining about, I don't expect him to start in the 6N at all.