The future of Ireland

So what's next for Ireland?I presume rog,bod etc. Will retirements etc.

Guy:Incognito

2 more years of Deccie is the future. Thank god he got the new contract or we'd be searching for a coach right now.:)

questionmark?

Time to redevelop the squad with a focus on bringing younger players through. Next years six nations will be all about the new players with a focus on winning it in three years to prepare for the next world cup.

@Leinster

Well, we currently have a lot of exciting talent coming through the ranks at 3 of our Provinces academies. There's players 19/20 years old already playing professional rugby that will be challenging for a spot in the 2015 squad.

Connacht's underage teams (not academy yet) have been doing spectacularly too, so there's definitely a good chance that we'll have 4 performing academies running in 3/4 years to increase the "conveyor belt" system of players that we need to see coming through.

With regards to probably retirements etc, the places we're really very thin is at second row and probably first centre.

Nagle at Munster is going to make it, Toner @Leinster I'm not so certain of. Most if not all other teams have ageing/aged second rows playing consistently.
First centre is an interesting one, at present Fitzgerald is playing 12 and doing well for Leinster, while Spence, Whitaker and Cave (all at Ulster) have all had stints at 12, but are more likely to wear 13 imo.

It's going to be an interesting few years for squad development. So many of our most important players are either really young, or getting on. The mix of seniority and youth will be fun to see.

NoelJ

1 healy 24 = grand for years
2 best 29 = replaceable
3 ross 31 = need to find someone
4 doc old = need to find
5 poc old = need to find
6 ferris 26
7 sob 24
8 heaslip 27
9 murray young
10 o gara old = sexton
11 earls 22
12 darce old = mcfadden
13 bod old = need to find someone
14 bowe 27
15 kearney 25

Realistically its only 4 players we need to replace. Not that much of a golden generation in my opinion.

Samich

Need to get rid of D'arcy, BOD can't break the line anymore either unfortunately We need a big first centre and a fast 2nd centre. Trimble can play 13 for me anyways. Earls and Bowe are fine, Kearney is great under the high ball. Good out half in Sexton.

Wouldn't mind O Brien at 8 and finding a Pocock type player from somewhere. O Callaghan is past it too. Front row is sound, Healy is still young for a front row prop.

Jamie Hagan is future Irish tighthead almost certainly imo

tolosenc

I want to see the following 22 during the 6 Nations, hopefully with Mallett at the helm...

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Hagan
4. Tuohy
5. McCarthy
6. Ruddock
7. Dom Ryan
8. O'Brien

9. Reddan
10. Sexton

11. Carr
12. Fitzgerald
13. Spence
14. Bowe

15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Archer
18. POC
19. Heaslip
20. Marshall
21. Humphreys
22. O'Driscoll

NoelJ

tolosenc wrote: »

I want to see the following 22 during the 6 Nations, hopefully with Mallett at the helm...

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Hagan
4. Tuohy
5. McCarthy
6. Ruddock
7. Dom Ryan
8. O'Brien

9. Reddan
10. Sexton

11. Carr
12. Fitzgerald
13. Spence
14. Bowe

15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Archer
18. POC
19. Heaslip
20. Marshall
21. Humphreys
22. O'Driscoll

Why not just win the next two years and then for the two years after start building for the world cup. I'm sure a few of the older lads want another shot at a grand slam.

tolosenc

NoelJ wrote: »

Why not just win the next two years and then for the two years after start building for the world cup. I'm sure a few of the older lads want another shot at a grand slam.

The longer the squad is playing together, the better. We won't win anything in the next 2 years.

Kayless

NoelJ wrote: »

Why not just win the next two years and then for the two years after start building for the world cup. I'm sure a few of the older lads want another shot at a grand slam.

After today, I don't think that's going to happen if Wales play like this in the 6 nations they will take our traditional spot as 3rd (and maybe even win) we need the younger guys in now getting experience for the next world cup

NoelJ

Kayless wrote: »

After today, I don't think that's going to happen if Wales play like this in the 6 nations they will take our traditional spot as 3rd (and maybe even win) we need the younger guys in now getting experience for the next world cup

50% of the squad will still be there next world cup I'd say. 2 years international experience is good. If they're good enough to take over the older players position they'll be given the opportunity. Think we should continue with the same squad for at least this years. You dont need 4 years international experience.

profitius

Luke Marshall, JJ Hanrahan, Tiernan O'Halloran, Peter O'Mahony, Jamie Hagan, Andrew Conway, Graig Gilroy etc

We'll have a much stronger squad in the next world cup.

NoelJ

NoelJ wrote: »

50% of the squad will still be there next world cup I'd say. 2 years international experience is good. If they're good enough to take over the older players position they'll be given the opportunity. Think we should continue with the same squad for at least this years. You dont need 4 years international experience.

he's included the 50% of the squad that'll still be there...

NoelJ

profitius wrote: »

Luke Marshall, JJ Hanrahan, Tiernan O'Halloran, Peter O'Mahony, Jamie Hagan, Andrew Conway, Graig Gilroy etc

We'll have a much stronger squad in the next world cup.

Wouldn't be counting my eggs before they hatched. Good potential but lots of players have it and dont make it.

profitius

NoelJ wrote: »

Wouldn't be counting my eggs before they hatched. Good potential but lots of players have it and dont make it.

I agree. Some of those won't make it but others will. We're producing more quality and quantity of players these days.

NoelJ

profitius wrote: »

I agree. Some of those won't make it but others will. We're producing more quality and quantity of players these days.

I think everyone is that's the problem. Other teams are getting stronger too. Italy will be a good side next world cup I think.

marco_polo

I think the future is very bright, sure in a couple of postions there may not be an immediate replacement available (to drop straight into test level) but there is a underlying pool of young talent that is arguably better than we have ever had before.

To put it this way I don't think the golden generation tag will last too long

totallegend

NoelJ wrote: »

Why not just win the next two years and then for the two years after start building for the world cup. I'm sure a few of the older lads want another shot at a grand slam.

That is the exact opposite of what we should do. We have a major problem with lack of depth in that squad and we need to start blooding younger players NOW, not when Kidney has restored his reputation a bit.

We must include the following at some stage in the Six Nations:
Jamie Hagan
Sean Cronin - to get a start for once
Dan Tuohy or any second-row under the age of 27 (@tolosenc, McCarthy is 30)
Dom Ryan
Nevin Spence

We have to start planning for the next world cup now.

profitius

totallegend wrote: »

That is the exact opposite of what we should do. We have a major problem with lack of depth in that squad and we need to start blooding younger players NOW, not when Kidney has restored his reputation a bit.

We must include the following at some stage in the Six Nations:
Jamie Hagan
Sean Cronin - to get a start for once
Dan Tuohy or any second-row under the age of 27 (@tolosenc, McCarthy is 30)
Dom Ryan
Nevin Spence

We have to start planning for the next world cup now.

+1

We have to stop being so conservative and start taking chances with playing style and team selection.

tomegan2010

You will have the retirements from the likes of Roge BOD, O'Connell but in fairness those boys have put there bodies in serious hardship for their country through their carrer. They can be proud what they done in this world cup. The put down some big teams. Declan said after todays game he is sorry for letting down the fans. In my opinion the didn't do that. What do other people think? I'm very proud of them lads. Just let's work on the next few years at getting our young team raedy.
Fair play to you lads.

MoneyMilo

Tuohy should've been at the World Cup. He's been playing very well for Ulster and can carry a lot better than DOC or POC.

Gilroy, Spence, Hagan, Carr, Conway should all be involved for 6 nations

tolosenc

totallegend wrote: »

@tolosenc, McCarthy is 30

Seriously? I thought he was 25 or so?

If so, then he's not the man for the job.

McLoughlin is worth a shot.

profitius

I'd like POC and BOD to stay for another while. They're class players and playing well still.

totallegend

tolosenc wrote: »

Seriously? I thought he was 25 or so?

If so, then he's not the man for the job.

29, according to http://www.connachtrugby.ie/2009012781740/player-profile-michael-mccarthy

molloyjh

There's precious little point in putting all our eggs into the one basket. The RWC is an incredibly difficult tournament to win and the chances of us doing so are stacked against us. We do need to look at building a squad, but more with the view of winning either the 2013 or 2014 6 Nations. And then maintaining a level of development that sees us competing at each 6 Nations and each RWC. The level of conservatism in Irish rugby needs to end and we need to be willing to try new talent early with a view to building a real squad with genuine options from 1 to 15.

marco_polo

totallegend wrote: »

That is the exact opposite of what we should do. We have a major problem with lack of depth in that squad and we need to start blooding younger players NOW, not when Kidney has restored his reputation a bit.

We must include the following at some stage in the Six Nations:
Jamie Hagan
Sean Cronin - to get a start for once
Dan Tuohy or any second-row under the age of 27 (@tolosenc, McCarthy is 30)
Dom Ryan
Nevin Spence

We have to start planning for the next world cup now.

While there is no need to completely throw the baby out with the bathwater, I wholeheartedly agree that we need to be much more proactive in the blooding of players, up to now the default position is that inexperienced player is not up to it until 100% proven otherwise. Still thebest way to blood young player is with experience around them.

With Conor Murrays rise there are signs that this conservatism may be changing (ignoring whether or not one thinks that Reddan shouldactually have started).

Now there are probably a fair few of people who are probably not happy that DK will be the coach for at least another two years, but it is certain that he will be. Fundamentally he remains an very good coach and if he can also learn from his mistakes wrt giving younger player their chance when their time has clearly come I think the future (perhaps beyond the next six nations) is bright.

sportfanatic

Part of the problem here is with the likes of:

Nagle- supposedly huge potential but will he be getting past DOC (and to a lesser extent D.Ryan) at Munster.

McFadden/ Carr/ Conway- Will they get his game in a HEC at Leinster? Darce, BOD, Kearney, Nacewa and Fitz will all be competing hard for game time.

Hagan- will he be he get games ahead of Ross at Leinster?

Cronin- will he be no1 at Leinster.

I know Leinster rotate, but still....

If these guys arent playing regularly then they cant really expect to be in the 6N Team?

I know you cant judge them on one game but the young Ulster lads look very ordinary last night against an Italian team (improving). These guys like Jackson, Marshall, Spence, and especially Gilroy have huge potential but arent ready yet. Not sure if they are even ready for HEC never mind 6N

molloyjh

marco_polo wrote: »

With Conor Murrays rise there are signs that this conservatism may be changing (ignoring whether or not one thinks that Reddan shouldactually have started).

Murrays inclusion was a last minute nessecity. When it was obvious TOL shouldn't travel Kidney had no other real option. As for his selection today I personally never understood it. But like Ross and O'Brien he wouldn't have gotten a look in if Kidenys hand wasn't forced.

MoneyMilo

sportfanatic wrote: »

Part of the problem here is with the likes of:

Nagle- supposedly huge potential but will he be getting past DOC (and to a lesser extent D.Ryan) at Munster.

McFadden/ Carr/ Conway- Will they get his game in a HEC at Leinster? Darce, BOD, Kearney, Nacewa and Fitz will all be competing hard for game time.

Hagan- will he be he get games ahead of Ross at Leinster?

Cronin- will he be no1 at Leinster.

I know Leinster rotate, but still....

If these guys arent playing regularly then they cant really expect to be in the 6N Team?


No, he won't. Strauss is way ahead of Cronin.

skregs

When does Strauss become eligible?

molloyjh

skregs wrote: »

When does Strauss become eligible?

Nov 2012.

tolosenc

molloyjh wrote: »

Nov 2012.

Counting the days...

SSK

Those who are writhing off POC are fooling themselves, we have no one anywhere close to his class coming through and he's playing some of his best ever rugby at the moment. No reason why he can't continue to the next WC.

I think BOD could well call it a day, but if he doesn't then he's still good enough to start. Just not alongside D'Arcy, leaves us with no pace in midfield. I think I'd prefer Fitz to McFadden, just not sure McFadden has the ability to be a permanent starter.

My team for the 2012 6 Nations (assuming all are fit)

1. Healy (no question)
2. Best (Ireland's best player today, unbelievable considering he was such a doubt)
3. Ross (Still our best option, will be around come 2015. Hagan to be phased in)
4. Tuohy (Hopefully he can bring the dynamism missing from our 2nd row. Ryan could also be an option but he needs to play there for Munster)
5. POC (as above)
6. Ferris (IMO, when fit he is now our best player)
7. Dom Ryan (We really, really need to develop a proper 7, he looks like the best option)
8. SOB/Heaslip (I think Heaslip is down on form, SOB isn't a 7 although he will be good enough against a lot of teams. Tough to leave one out but has to be done)

9. Redden (Currently our best option, let Murray learn off the bench)
10. Sexton (Start him and give him the responsibility to lead the backline)

11. Trimble (Trimble should have started today, Earls defence is really suspect, hopefully he'll learn because he's great going forward)
12. Fitzgerald (Playing there for Leinster, will give us some much needed pace in midfield)
13. BOD/Bowe (If BOD doesn't go again, Bowe is our best option for the moment. Again brings pace to the midfield)
14. Bowe/Earls (Depends on BOD)
15. Kearney (Thought he was good today)

16. Cronin/Varley/Sherry (whoever is starting for their province)
17. Hagan
18. Paddy MacAllister (Dynamic loosehead, can scrummage well, one for the future)
19. Ryan/Nagle (Hopefully one of them will be starting for Munster)
20. Heaslip/SOB
21. Murray
22. Ehhhh...I think ROG is done, so Keatley I suppose has to be next in line, even if he isn't starting for Munster
23. Earls/Spence (Spence covers 11-14, powerful carrier and will bring some youthful exuberance to the party)

We are weak in some areas but that squad is good enough to compete with the best. I don't think we should be too despondent about the future. We really need a good backline coach to replace Gaffney though.

Het-Field

The provincial game will determine exactly how accelerated our rebuilding process will be.

While I believe we will have a few retirements, these will only be retirements from the International Game. The likes of O'Driscoll, O'Connell, D'Arcy will probably give some more to the provincial game. As such, development of players like McFadden, Carr etc may well be slightly stifled.

Notwithstanding that, I think we have a number of players who are capable of acting as the spine of the team if we were to lose a number of players to retirement. Felix Jones, Rob Kearney, Tommy Bowe, Keith Earls, Andy Trimble and Luke Fitzgerald all offer something positive, and a team could be formed around these players. We have a ready made front row, which will continue to improve, and we have a number of back row combination which could be useful.

We are not licked yet. Our departure from the World Cup is not nearly as bad as our 2007 exit, which demonstrated a great malaise in the tea. However, work is required, and a lot of soul searching will be necessary to recalibrate this team.

You're all thinking about it wrong by naming a 22/23.

We need to start realising that we need to use specific combinations of players to play specific gameplans against certain teams.

i.e, against a team like England, we need to stick it to them quickly and blast them out of rucks. We want a back row like today's, a running 10, and a full back with safe hands. We choose Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton and Kearney.

We play a team like Italy, who are very strong in defence, but blunt in attack. We play with a groundhog 7, a tactical kicking 10, and as much pace as possible on the wings
We choose Jennings, ROG and Carr and Earls.

This is how to develop a squad, not tying us to a set 23 for each game.

theboss80

tolosenc wrote: »

I want to see the following 22 during the 6 Nations, hopefully with Mallett at the helm...

No Murray at all?

Risteard

Deleted User wrote: »

You're all thinking about it wrong by naming a 22/23.

We need to start realising that we need to use specific combinations of players to play specific gameplans against certain teams.

i.e, against a team like England, we need to stick it to them quickly and blast them out of rucks. We want a back row like today's, a running 10, and a full back with safe hands. We choose Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton and Kearney.

We play a team like Italy, who are very strong in defence, but blunt in attack. We play with a groundhog 7, a tactical kicking 10, and as much pace as possible on the wings
We choose Jennings, ROG and Carr and Earls.

This is how to develop a squad, not tying us to a set 23 for each game.

I agree. A one size fits all approach isn't the way to go.

One problem we have though, is, do we have a groundhog 7? Jennings is the only one I can think of and he will hardly be around at the next WC.

Ryan, for all his positives, I'm not sure of at 7. He's very physical but is he a proper ball winner?

molloyjh

Kole Poor Vandal wrote: »

You're all thinking about it wrong by naming a 22/23.

We need to start realising that we need to use specific combinations of players to play specific gameplans against certain teams.

i.e, against a team like England, we need to stick it to them quickly and blast them out of rucks. We want a back row like today's, a running 10, and a full back with safe hands. We choose Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton and Kearney.

We play a team like Italy, who are very strong in defence, but blunt in attack. We play with a groundhog 7, a tactical kicking 10, and as much pace as possible on the wings
We choose Jennings, ROG and Carr and Earls.

This is how to develop a squad, not tying us to a set 23 for each game.

+1

We have got to move away from this idea of having a single team, a single best XV and a few also-ran options on the bench. We need 2 players in very position that are capable of starting games and delivering for us. As Emmett said we need variety and following on from that we need impact subs and we need to make real use of a full match day squad. What we've had up until now is a best XV with a few players to come in and fill in for the last 10 but not really bring a whole lot to the game. So if we have an injury or a player under-performing we lose out. We've the reigning champions of both club level leagues I the country. Ulster have been going well and Connacht, judging by what I'm hearing of their U20s, are coming along nicely. There's no reason we can't develop a proper squad with real depth and options.

SSK

Deleted User wrote: »

You're all thinking about it wrong by naming a 22/23.

We need to start realising that we need to use specific combinations of players to play specific gameplans against certain teams.

i.e, against a team like England, we need to stick it to them quickly and blast them out of rucks. We want a back row like today's, a running 10, and a full back with safe hands. We choose Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton and Kearney.

We play a team like Italy, who are very strong in defence, but blunt in attack. We play with a groundhog 7, a tactical kicking 10, and as much pace as possible on the wings
We choose Jennings, ROG and Carr and Earls.

This is how to develop a squad, not tying us to a set 23 for each game.

In theory that would be fantastic and teams like France and England can do that because they have many more high quality players than we do all playing first team rugby with their clubs.

The fact is that we don't have the depth of quality to be chopping and changing. Ultimately we have to be building a team that can compete with the top teams and we shouldn't have to worry about playing "horses for courses" just to beat Italy because we should be good enough to beat them regardless of the team picked.

The fact that our team is picked purely from the 3 big provinces severely limits the players we can pick because its hard to justify picking a player that's only 2nd choice for his provincial team.

Fishooks12

I reckon ROG will retire before the six nations.

A few younger players that could make an impact in February:

Hagan
Spence
O Mahoney
O Malley

Apart from those three I can't see too many more breaking through for another year or two

ed7890

tolosenc wrote: »

Counting the days...

You wouldn't prefer to see an Irish lad in there?

nipps

we need to plan for the next world cup, within the next year. the following players will hav probably retired in 2 years time: BOD, POC, DOC, ROG, ross and darcy. if i was in charge, i would hav all 6 of them out of the team within a year or two depending on form.

firstly we need a natural 7, its obvious after todays game. if you look at the top teams in the world they all have a natural 7. eg mccaw, pocock, broussow, warburton. i wont include moody or bonnaire as thay arent of the same class. appart from this the backrow is very good.

frontrow is an issue, as there doesnt seem to be many young talented frontrowers coming through. hagan looks to be a good prospect and i look forward to seeing strauss pull on the green shirt. i dont rate cronin or court at all.

two new second rows are needed, work horses like POC and DOC. should we find a natural 7, i think ferris would fit in nicely into the second row. one thing i noticed is that we havnt been competitive in the lineout. donnacha ryan? i think hes average, solid, he will do for now, but we need players of higher quality.

centre is a big issue in particular 12. i can see the likes of fitzgerald, mcfadden, earls all competing for 13. there is also talk of spence and cave, but i havnt seen enough of them to giv an opinion. mcfadden might take the 12 position. at 12 we need someone jamie roberts-esque, great all-round defensively, strong runner and creative.

predictibility. this has to change and it will be up to sexton and the centres to do this. we need to be more creative in attack and to add variety, dummy runners, linebreaks at pace and more creative flair in the backs. decision making has to improve. we have to stop giving away possession with pointless kicks up the middle of the field. ball retention is key. we also need to be more efficient at the breakdown, this is where a natural 7 would work wonders. these are just some aspects which can be improved

it will be interesting to see how things progress over the next 4 years. hopefully the academies will produce some quality players at 3, 4/5, 7 and 12. the outside backs should remain the similar, with a healthy battle between jones and kearney for 15. sexton should learn from his experience and improve further. conor murray looks a talent. and hopefully our squad will contain more strenght in depth in 4 years time.

SSK

SSK wrote: »

In theory that would be fantastic and teams like France and England can do that because they have many more high quality players than we do all playing first team rugby with their clubs.

The fact is that we don't have the depth of quality to be chopping and changing. Ultimately we have to be building a team that can compete with the top teams and we shouldn't have to worry about playing "horses for courses" just to beat Italy because we should be good enough to beat them regardless of the team picked.

The fact that our team is picked purely from the 3 big provinces severely limits the players we can pick because its hard to justify picking a player that's only 2nd choice for his provincial team.

simply untrue. We have 3 teams that play HEC level rugby every year that have squads of 40-50 players of which a maximum can be 5 NIQ players. We have players at Connacht that cannot be ignored. Hagan and Carr could easily have been involved last year, McCarthy was this year too.

You can't compete against "top teams" with just this one XXII, every team in the world does its homework, and we'll get figured out very very quickly. It's time to box clever.

spiralism

ed7890 wrote: »

You wouldn't prefer to see an Irish lad in there?

dunno about you but i'd love to have proven quality in Strauss there

Fishooks12

spiralism wrote: »

dunno about you but i'd love to have proven quality in Strauss there

Has strauss actually expressed an interest to play?

molloyjh

spiralism wrote: »

ed7890 wrote: »

You wouldn't prefer to see an Irish lad in there?

dunno about you but i'd love to have proven quality in Strauss there

You could nearly play Strauss at 7 the way he's been playing for Leinster this season!

SSK

Deleted User wrote: »

simply untrue. We have 3 teams that play HEC level rugby every year that have squads of 40-50 players of which a maximum can be 5 NIQ players. We have players at Connacht that cannot be ignored. Hagan and Carr could easily have been involved last year, McCarthy was this year too.

You can't compete against "top teams" with just this one XXII, every team in the world does its homework, and we'll get figured out very very quickly. It's time to box clever.

I don't know emmett. If you consider the 5 NIQ players to be first 23 players for each province and that we are for the foreseeable future only realistically picking from 3 provinces (for the most part) that leaves 54 Irish players. The vast majority of these players have been in and around Irish squads for the past few years. Most of the unused players simply aren't good enough for international rugby. The basis for the HEC success over the past few years has been the Irish international players allied with quality NIQ players. The depth players, while important, aren't the reason we have 4 of the last 6 HECs imo.

I agree with your idea in theory but I just don't think its practical under the current set up.

ed7890

spiralism wrote: »

dunno about you but i'd love to have proven quality in Strauss there

But why, he's not Irish, he has no connection to us whatsoever. Doesn't that matter, or does nothing matter except maybe being a bit more successful, and forget the Irish lads being kept out of the team, who actually dreamed of wearing the green jersey when they were growing up?

Fishooks12

ed7890 wrote: »

But why, he's not Irish, he has no connection to us whatsoever. Doesn't that matter, or does nothing matter except maybe being a bit more successful, and forget the young Irish hookers who actually dreamed of wearing the green jersey some day?

How does he have "no connection"??

He's lived in Ireland for years

He plays with the most successful Irish team

You could say Isaac Boss isn't Irish.. Tom Court is Australian.

You could even say Ronan O Gara isn't Irish given he was born in America, even Heaslip was born in Israel!

ambid

There is a lot of talk about how we need a Pocock type 7 and a Roberts type 12, but this talk is fantasy. We can only talk about players available, not magic up the type of players we think we need.

I'd like a McCaw type 7, a Carter type 10, a Matfield type lock, and while I'm at it I'd like a Cindy Crawford type girlfriend, a Donald Trump type bank balance, and a Maradonna type striker for the football team.

It's all fantasy. Lets be realistic and talk sensibly about players/ coaches/ tactics which are available.