RWC Pool C: Ireland vs USA Eagles, Sun 11 Sep 7am; Pre/During/Post Match Thread.

RoryMc23

USA

phog wrote: »

Will you give it a rest, it's tiresome and inaccurate.

ROG (like Sexton) is getting a very hard time and I agree there but in all honestly Phog, his defence is terrible. Of the top 10 nations O'Gara definitely has the worst defensive game of any outhalf. Great player and would have been a super player with a defensive game. Unfortunately, he still gets run over regularly and gives up an incredible amount of yards.

One thing Sexton does do very well (but I never see mentioned) is that he can not only stop a player dead in their tracks but also hold up the ball for other players to arrive. This is often missed and rarely praised but it really slows down the opposition attacking ball and is vital to our defensive line.

Who would I start against Australia? Probably Sexton because of his defence, I agree with the other poster who said that against Australia kicks to touch and conversions won't win the game. Defence and attack will, Sexton is better in both. Theres no game mangement involved with Australia, essentially its keep the ball in your hands at all costs because if that back 3 get going you're ****ed.

Principal Skinner

vinny chase wrote: »

Sean Bateman wrote: »

Do you know anything about the game?

O'Gara's defence is terrible.

BTW, losing against Australia may the best way for us to reach a WC semi...Wales leading against South Africa and the Springboks looking all over the place.

I'm a heavily biased Leinster fan, but I think the comments about Ronan O'Gara's defence are ridiculous.

Granted, he isn't the physically biggest player, and there are loads of clips of him going high on a big guy like Heaslip, Fourie or someone like that and getting blown away, but saying Ronan O'Gara can't smash lads in the tackle is like saying Mike Ross is a terrible kicker.

O'GARA IS A GOOD DEFENDER. He organises a defensive line really well, and makes a lot of tackles. His occasional misses where he gets obliterated make good highlight reel material, but rarely lead to tries directly in my opinion. The one against the Springboks in the second Lions test in '09 stands out, but in fairness to the guy he'd just had his eye smashed a few moments before.

He's a great player for everything else he brings to the table.

I'd start Sexton next week though.

You lost all credibility there. Whatever you say about him you can not say that

mrboswell

USA

vinny chase wrote: »

I'm a heavily biased Leinster fan, but I think the comments about Ronan O'Gara's defence are ridiculous.

Granted, he isn't the physically biggest player, and there are loads of clips of him going high on a big guy like Heaslip, Fourie or someone like that and getting blown away, but saying Ronan O'Gara can't smash lads in the tackle is like saying Mike Ross is a terrible kicker.

O'Gara is a good defender. He organises a defensive line really well, and makes a lot of tackles. His occasional misses where he gets obliterated make good highlight reel material, but rarely lead to tries directly in my opinion. The one against the Springboks in the second Lions test in '09 stands out, but in fairness to the guy he'd just had his eye smashed a few moments before.

He's a great player for everything else he brings to the table.

I'd start Sexton next week though.

Yea the saloon doors arms comment was inaccurate. He has improved a little in the last 2-4 years. Cat flap would be more accurate.

Unfortunately his technical ability to tackle is poor and he regularly gets his body position wrong. It's not a sufficient defense for an international outhalf. Nacewa nearly knocked him out in the magners final.

Teams see him as a weak link defensively and they are right to try to exploit it.

I totally agree that he's a great player for everything else he brings to the table. If it wasn't for his tackling he'd be top 2 or 3.

Sean Bateman

USA

Buceph wrote: »

In fairness to O'Gara and I was a big critic four to two years ago, his defense has improved a lot in the last two years. He's still not going to drive someone back in a tackle, rip ball or take a guy, get up and ruck him, but he has become much better in actually stopping runners in the ten channel.

To be fair to him, it's kind of a vicious circle. Because he's historically been ropey in defence, teams just send their bosh merchants straight down his channel making him look even worse. He has worked on it but I still don't think he's a good defender. He may not be horrendous anymore but he's still a weak link.

How the f..k is O'Callaghan still in the side?

I relaly like the idea of picking Ferris at second row. Now's not the time for that sort of innovation though...it should have been done in the warm up games.

phog

Sean Bateman wrote: »

Do you know anything about the game?

O'Gara's defence is terrible.

.

RoryMc23 wrote: »

but in all honestly Phog, his defence is terrible.

ROG was on the field for at least 30 minutes today, if his defence is so terrible then why wouldn't his former international manager get the message to his current team to target that channel?

I've never argued that ROG is the best defender in the world he is a lot better than some on here rate him.

vinny chase

USA

Principal Skinner wrote: »

You lost all credibility there. Whatever you say about him you can not say that

I absolutely can.

He's a guy who has won Heineken Cups and a Grand Slam, you think he's managed all this despite an inability to defend?

A couple of, as I said, highlight reel material occasions down the years where he got blown away have fuelled this perception that he cannot defend, but it's far from the reality.

Buceph

Sean Bateman wrote: »

How the f..k is O'Callaghan still in the side?

He did a lot of rucking today and he turned over ball a couple of times, but he couldn't be everywhere. I think he played better than POC. But the big problem is that Kidney's no longer using his "pods." When he was in charge of Munster POC and DOC did everything together, and if one of them was at the bottom of a ruck leamy/foley/Quinlan/Wallace was paired with the other and they'd hit the rucks two at a time. He was tough to manage as it meant you'd often be left waiting for the second player to pair up, but it did mean when you won rucks you kept them won. So the players had to think on their feet and decide when to go in on their own or double up, but most of the time they doubled up and won the ruck, allowing a backrower to poach if it was on.

This has not happened in any way with the Irish team. They seem to be getting to rucks late, in dribs and drabs and not securing their positions. DOC was the only person hitting rucks today (I actually thought POC was poor, but better than Heaslip and Jennings, Ferris was the best of them and Best played one of the best games he's had in yonks.)

steve9859

USA

willit wrote: »

willit wrote: »

But, onwards and upwards. In reality we were never going to beat Australia, and we're still going to beat Italy and then get beaten in the quarter final by South Africa, which is exactly what would have happened whether we flopped against the U.S., as we did, or if we ran in ten tries.

Or maybe Wales the way this match is looking at the moment

Even if Ireland's route and ultimate exit is preordained, it doesn't mean that performances do not matter. Entertaining the fans by playing to the best of their ability for 5 games then losing to SA will leave the nation and the players a hell of a lot happier and prouder than stumbling through every match

Principal Skinner

vinny chase wrote: »

Principal Skinner wrote: »

You lost all credibility there. Whatever you say about him you can not say that

I absolutely can.

He's a guy who has won Heineken Cups and a Grand Slam, you think he's managed all this despite an inability to defend?

A couple of, as I said, highlight reel material occasions down the years where he got blown away have fuelled this perception that he cannot defend, but it's far from the reality.

That's awful logic. How many useless players have won the heineken cup? I'm not saying o'gara is useless but what you win dosnt define you as a player, otherwise your saying DOC is as good a player as POC.

danthefan

USA

People talking about dropping DOC, he's not playing well imo but there's no real alternative. Cullen is more in the style of POC but obviously not as good, so he isn't a replacement for DOC.

vinny chase

USA

Principal Skinner wrote: »

That's awful logic. How many useless players have won the heineken cup? I'm not saying o'gara is useless but what you win dosnt define you as a player, otherwise your saying DOC is as good a player as POC.

No, I'm not saying that. And I'm not making the David May argument either.

But he's playing at ten, for God's sake.

He consistently makes over ten-twelve tackles a match, and the guys he has charging down his channel are back rows and centres. 98% of the time he makes those tackles, the notable exceptions to that get blown out of all proportion.

Typh

Can't believe the OH debate is escalating when there were so many unanswered questions on the pitch today that didn't involve the questionable defensive methods of the ten channel.

Fact of the matter is, isn't O'Gara one of the slightest, if not the slightest player when Stringer isn't playing, on the pitch at any given time? Fluctuating between 13 and 14 stone? Yet I'm genuinely impressed that he stands up to whatever comes his way, despite the fact he knows the possibility of him being trodden upon is there. It's always a back at full tilt, or a heavy backrower, and he'll always stand up, and subsequently go down. He actually tackles very well occasionally, and it's amusing to note how often people will quite literally trip over his body if he gets mowed down. Say what you want, the guy commits his body, with no conscious thought to how hurt he may get, and very seldom is injured despite taking some obscene hits.

I imagine all the Irish supporters here wish that their OH tackled like a man possessed, the Wilkinson of old for example, and that applies to both of the options at 10.
As for DOC, beneath the glamorous orange veneer is a man very willing to do the ugly, unattractive grunt work. Teams need guys like that, and options seem limited in that space anyway, nah?

Liam90

USA

Lets be honest, defensively O'Gara is very poor. You might as well be down to 14 men defensively when O'Gara is playing.

vinny chase

USA

Liam90 wrote: »

Lets be honest, defensively O'Gara is very poor. You might as well be down to 14 men defensively when O'Gara is playing.

Simplistic and incorrect.

Liam90

USA

vinny chase wrote: »

Simplistic and incorrect.

Thanks, would you rather i wrote a couple of paragraphs on it?

MungBean

Ireland by less than 20

Liam90 wrote: »

Lets be honest, defensively O'Gara is very poor. You might as well be down to 14 men defensively when O'Gara is playing.

On current form his defence has been better than others in the squad.

Spudmonkey

Typh wrote: »

As for DOC, beneath the glamorous orange veneer is a man very willing to do the ugly, unattractive grunt work.

:pac:

phog

Liam90 wrote: »

Lets be honest, defensively O'Gara is very poor. You might as well be down to 14 men defensively when O'Gara is playing.

Liam90 wrote: »

Thanks, would you rather i wrote a couple of paragraphs on it?

Rather than drag this thread down a ROG bashing route PM me your paragrahs and I'll gladly point out the errors of your views.

vinny chase

USA

Liam90 wrote: »

Thanks, would you rather i wrote a couple of paragraphs on it?

I'd prefer if you addressed any of the issues I and others made before this in defence of him.

Anyone can say something like that, backing it up is something different.

RuggieBear

this is becoming pathetic, people.

anymore ROG sexton ****e will result in ban till after the world cup. Criticism is fine but the constant zero sum game is becoming ****ing tiresome.

Liam90

USA

phog wrote: »

Rather than drag this thread down a ROG bashing route PM me your paragrahs and I'll gladly point out the errors of your views.

Sorry if it comes acrosslike like that but im not trying to bash O'Gara, Hes a great player offensively and has been for years. I just feel like his defense lets him down and after doing something great for the team offensively he can ruin it by letting the team down on defense.

wixfjord

Was anyone watching the post game press confrence that Setanta showed?
Kidney was questioned about the missed kicks, and actually said that, "Of course if you get the kicks, there's a mid field kick off, and you're under pressure again"

One of the most bizzare statements I've heard any coach make!

astonaidan

USA

Its amazing how every rugby thread boils down to ROG against Jonny

My Ratings For today

Tom Court (7)
(1) Thought he scrummed well and carried well
Rory Best (7)
(2) Best game for Ireland imo, Was accurate in lineout and solid in scrum
Mike Ross (6)
(3) Scrummed well, Didnt do much else but thats not what hes their for
Donnacha O'Callaghan (8)
(4) Personally I thought he did well, Dont see why hes getting slated
Paul O'Connell (7)
(5) Should have led fowards better poor judgement but played well in general
Stephen Ferris (8)
(6) Our best player always looked dangerous with ball
Shane Jennings (5)
(7) Didnt notice him, Dont know how many chances he needs tbh, Not up to it at this level
Jamie Heaslip (5)
(8) Worldclass player, But hasnt been playing near that level recently, Id drop him to give him a kick up the arse
Conor Murray (5)
(9) Looked abit nervous not given protection at breakdown, Next year will be our starting sh
Jonny Sexton (5)
(10) Poor performance good offload for Bowes try, Dreadful kickin game of tee and out of hand
Keith Earls (5)
(11) Started bright, Quickly faded didnt get ball but didnt look for ball like Tommy Bowe
Gordon Darcy (5)
(12) Shouldnt be starting, another poor game
Brian O'Driscoll (6)
(13) Poor game should see huge improvement next week, Sparks of Magic
Tommy Bowe (7)
(14) 2 trys on a poor day, Should have done more but that might just me being greedy
Geordan Murphy (5)
(15) Struggled but should improve, Might just be me but he didnt want to counter attack at all

My Starting Team Versus Australia

Healy, Best, Ross
DOC, POC
Ferris, Heaslip, SOB
Reddan
ROG
Mcfadden, BOD
Trimble, Bowe
Murphy

danthefan

USA

Your ratings are miles too generous.

phog

It's being repeated on TG4 now.

Stev_o

Ireland by less than 20

Very disappointing game. Played against a side that can't attack and we gifted them a game that they'll see in their eyes as a victory.

As iv said in the pre season and many times in the lead up to the RWC, our centre's are simply not good enough. It doesn't matter if you have Carter at 10 and pull George Gregan at 9 we still aren't going to go anywhere cause our centres can't get over the gain line.

D'Arcy has been poor for 2 years (imo) and if he can't get over the gain line what is he in the side for?

Really disappointing.

padser

phog wrote: »

It's being repeated on TG4 now.

Any chance it's likely to get any better on a second viewing??? :-)

phog

wixfjord wrote: »

Was anyone watching the post game press confrence that Setanta showed?
Kidney was questioned about the missed kicks, and actually said that, "Of course if you get the kicks, there's a mid field kick off, and you're under pressure again"

One of the most bizzare statements I've heard any coach make!

I didnt hear him but I alway say the same, one of the positives of missing the kick is that you have a restart on the 22 rather it being kicked into your half to defend. I especially think this when a team concedes a penalty rather than a try wioth a professional foul, they sometimes get away with a 3 pointer, no sinbinning and then get to put you under pressure with a restart from the halfway line, one of my bug bears.

cjgib

this extract from the guardian sums it up


"Then, with Ireland running a play out the back aimed at the replacement Andrew Trimble, Paul Emerick picked off Gordon D'Arcy's pass and sprinted 60 metres to score and salute the crowd. The Eagles reacted as if they had won. In a way they did."

astonaidan

USA

danthefan wrote: »

Your ratings are miles too generous.

I dont think so myself, But hey it was 7 in the morning maybe I'm only remembering the golden moments