Life outside BR

ormond lad

eoferrall wrote: »

if it doesn't then we should rightly wear the tag of chokers.

we aim for the semis and fall short, maybe aim for the winning of the dam thing and make the semis?

why not be realistic in our aims?
Aim for something that is attainable with a slight improvement on what we currently have achieved.
why aim to reach a final/win the tournament when we've never even made a semi final before. be realistic in the aims

eoferrall

ormond lad wrote: »

why not be realistic in our aims?
Aim for something that is attainable with a slight improvement on what we currently have achieved.
why aim to reach a final/win the tournament when we've never even made a semi final before. be realistic in the aims

Why isn't it realistic to aim to win the RWC? aim to win it in 2019 say, and start planning now. putting proper structures in place and developing the squad to have 30odd players all capable of starting any match, creating competition for spaces.

The reason we go no where is we play virtually the same 15 each game, no rotation.

Saying it is unrealistic to my mind is accepting of the chronic UNDER-performance of the Irish team certainly since the 2000's. we SHOULD have been in the semis twice in the last 3 RWC's in my mind. I don't accept.

ormond lad

eoferrall wrote: »

Why isn't it realistic to aim to win the RWC? aim to win it in 2019 say, and start planning now. putting proper structures in place and developing the squad to have 30odd players all capable of starting any match, creating competition for spaces.

The reason we go no where is we play virtually the same 15 each game, no rotation.

Saying it is unrealistic to my mind is accepting of the chronic UNDER-performance of the Irish team certainly since the 2000's. we SHOULD have been in the semis twice in the last 3 RWC's in my mind. I don't accept.

2015 isnt realistic. we have been talking about 2015 which is in the short to medium term not 2019 where the majority of current players will not be taking part for us.
When you say planning for 2019. What do you mean? What are the "proper structures" you talk about?
The reason we go nowhere is not because of no rotation its because in many positions the players have not been good enough at international level which is a step up from club level.
Its been proved that international rugby is faster and a step up from the club game
I dont honestly think we should have been in the semi's twice in the last 3 world cups. Which world cups and who should we have been in the semi's ahead of?

Phonehead

ormond lad wrote: »

The reason we go nowhere is not because of no rotation its because in many positions the players have not been good enough at international level which is a step up from club level.
Its been proved that international rugby is faster and a step up from the club game
I dont honestly think we should have been in the semi's twice in the last 3 world cups. Which world cups and who should we have been in the semi's ahead of?

Totally disagree here, We have 3 teams at the top table of the European Cup, these players consistently out perform their Welsh and English counterparts! yet when they put on a green jersey they look like a bunch of headless chickens! Ormond you refuse to acknowledge the obvious and that is that unlike Wales and England, Ireland simply have a backroom team that doesn't seem to know what or how they want to play. The excuse for the dismal performances these past 3 years has been a consistent trawl of we are trying new systems blah blah blah! Here's something they should try, pick a system, stay with it and then improve on it.

ormond lad

Phonehead wrote: »

Totally disagree here, We have 3 teams at the top table of the European Cup, these players consistently out perform their Welsh and English counterparts! yet when they put on a green jersey they look like a bunch of headless chickens! Ormond you refuse to acknowledge the obvious and that is that unlike Wales and England, Ireland simply have a backroom team that doesn't seem to know what or how they want to play. The excuse for the dismal performances these past 3 years has been a consistent trawl of we are trying new systems blah blah blah! Here's something they should try, pick a system, stay with it and then improve on it.

It isnt just the management. If it was the management we would have won more under o sullivan. The players have to get as much blame as the management. They have underperformed
Stop having a go at me because i have i different opinion to you. Now you are saying i cant acknowledge the obvious which is not true.
What exactly do you want the irish management to do?? What "system" do you think they should be picking and running that hasnt been used before?

Phonehead

I AM NOT INSULTING YOU, however you are insulting me by constantly saying I am insulting you, please could a mod advise on this It seems just because I disagree with you, you feel I am insulting you. If you don't want to debate then don't discuss rugby with people with differing views.

ormond lad

Phonehead wrote: »

I AM NOT INSULTING YOU, however you are insulting me by constantly saying I am insulting you, please could a mod advise on this It seems just because I disagree with you, you feel I am insulting you. If you don't want to debate then don't discuss rugby with people with differing views.

my prev Post edited.
I have been discussing alternate views. Some of the posts have been v agressive towards kidney. We havent reached our potential but the players should be taking as much blame as management but there is plenty in BO who dont see that and have just been attacking Kidney.

eoferrall

ormond lad wrote: »

my prev Post edited.
I have been discussing alternate views. Some of the posts have been v agressive towards kidney. We havent reached our potential but the players should be taking as much blame as management but there is plenty in BO who dont see that and have just been attacking Kidney.

It's more they progressed so far under EOS, that other than luck would have won several GS etc. that the expectation was to build upon that, instead we have gone backwards or at best could be argued remained stationary if you take the point kidney took over to now.

THAT is the nub of peoples dissatisfaction, if the players are not good enough why can they out play the SAME players in their provinces jerseys regularly? Wales have 3 GS in the last few years and we have 1, something is not right with that given the players.

Phonehead

Thanks, I agree players should shoulder the blame as on some occasions it is quiet clear from the body language they are not at the races! however Kidney needs to get them at the races. I don't hate Kidney but I am 100% convinced he has the wrong backroom team! Kidney we all know is not a tactician so he relies on his coaches, we have Kiss a defence coach doing the job of the attack Coach! It's quiet clear as a Rugby League man turned defence coach he is probably not the best choice of attack coach. Ireland's attack is the problem, we go lateral, get frustrated after numerous phases of no gain and then resort to a box kick as nothing else is on.

eoferrall

ormond lad wrote: »

2015 isnt realistic. we have been talking about 2015 which is in the short to medium term not 2019 where the majority of current players will not be taking part for us.
When you say planning for 2019. What do you mean? What are the "proper structures" you talk about?
The reason we go nowhere is not because of no rotation its because in many positions the players have not been good enough at international level which is a step up from club level.
Its been proved that international rugby is faster and a step up from the club game
I dont honestly think we should have been in the semi's twice in the last 3 world cups. Which world cups and who should we have been in the semi's ahead of?

2007 had we beaten the argues or france we would have been against scotland and into the semis. we beat Argentina regularly in that time period so should not have lost really, but we played terrible in that tournament. and 2011 we should have been. against Wales we pulled it back to 10-10, but simply had no ideas really when they were tackling players straight up and forcing o'gara back in. The coaching staff either had no plan B or did not give the players a bollocking for not playing it during half time? that is two we could have been in, the 2011 one being the biggest miss.

ormond lad

eoferrall wrote: »

It's more they progressed so far under EOS, that other than luck would have won several GS etc. that the expectation was to build upon that, instead we have gone backwards or at best could be argued remained stationary if you take the point kidney took over to now.

THAT is the nub of peoples dissatisfaction, if the players are not good enough why can they out play the SAME players in their provinces jerseys regularly? Wales have 3 GS in the last few years and we have 1, something is not right with that given the players.

You can flip the welsh issue very easily. Wales have 3 grand slams since 2005 and we only have 1 but at provincial level we have 5 heineken cup wins and the welsh have none. International rugby is a step up in many ways from club rugby. Dont have a link but it was mentioned somewhere that international rugby is a faster, tougher game. Maybe some of our players are not as good as we think they are?

Phonehead wrote: »

Thanks, I agree players should shoulder the blame as on some occasions it is quiet clear from the body language they are not at the races! however Kidney needs to get them at the races. I don't hate Kidney but I am 100% convinced he has the wrong backroom team! Kidney we all know is not a tactician so he relies on his coaches, we have Kiss a defence coach doing the job of the attack Coach! It's quiet clear as a Rugby League man turned defence coach he is probably not the best choice of attack coach. Ireland's attack is the problem, we go lateral, get frustrated after numerous phases of no gain and then resort to a box kick as nothing else is on.

Who is wrong in his backroom team? Who should be replaced?
Kiss double jobbing was a poor decision but thats more than likely not the case anymore. Axel is in line to be fulltime coach with Ireland.
Kiss can coach attack.

eoferrall wrote: »

2007 had we beaten the argues or france we would have been against scotland and into the semis. we beat Argentina regularly in that time period so should not have lost really, but we played terrible in that tournament. and 2011 we should have been. against Wales we pulled it back to 10-10, but simply had no ideas really when they were tackling players straight up and forcing o'gara back in. The coaching staff either had no plan B or did not give the players a bollocking for not playing it during half time? that is two we could have been in, the 2011 one being the biggest miss.

We had beaten Argentina regularly enough(apart from 2 weakened tests the june before 07 world cup) but argentina game was a grudge game. Virtually every ireland argentina game since 1999 has had an edge to it(eye gouging, fights etc). You could never and can never say we should beat argentina. Look back at previous results in virtually every ireland argentina game and the gap is small.

FewFew

When it comes to rugby, I always think we should be aiming for the top spot. Fair enough in football and other sports there's a whole world out there to beat us, but credible national rugby sides are far fewer and sure we're always in the top 8.

We're an odd aul nation when it comes to the sporting psyche. Always perform better when we're the under dogs.

ormond lad

Fewcifur wrote: »

When it comes to rugby, I always think we should be aiming for the top spot. Fair enough in football and other sports there's a whole world out there to beat us, but credible national rugby sides are far fewer and sure we're always in the top 8.

We're an odd aul nation when it comes to the sporting psyche. Always perform better when we're the under dogs.

Yes but we have to beat all nations on a regular basis before looking to number 1. How can we aim for number 1 when we rarely have been in the top 4. Build up towards the top spot but you cant do that immediately
I agree with you on the psyche. You are in the minority if you perform better when the favourite

corny

ormond lad wrote: »

The reason we go nowhere is not because of no rotation its because in many positions the players have not been good enough at international level which is a step up from club level.

I'm shaking my head in disbelief tbh but out of interest could you name these players and positions for us?

My take on our best 15

Kearney - Lions fullback. Arguably best fielder of the high ball in the world.
Bowe - Lion and 2010 Six Nations Player of the Championship (50% of vote)
BOD - don't need to make a case
Darcy - nominated for IRB Player Of The Year in 2004 and Six Nations Player Of The Tournament in 2007
Fitzgerald/Earls Both Lions at young age.
Sexton - Best 10 in NH. Will start for the Lions in Australia
9. i'll give you that
Heaslip - Technically best 8 in NH. Lion and sheer class act.
Wallace/SOB - Brilliant ball carriers at any level. SOB official Rugby World Cup website named him one of the tournament's 'Top Five Star Players'. NZ'ers fooking loved him
Ferris - don't need to make a case. When he's fit he plays in any team
POC - Again nuff said
DOC - Not my favourite but he has played in two Lions tours
Ross - Never seen any prop consistently get the better of him.
Best - Will start for Lions. Excellent work rate. Excellent leader.
Healy - Best loosehead in the World imo.

Phonehead

You can flip the welsh issue very easily. Wales have 3 grand slams since 2005 and we only have 1 but at provincial level we have 5 heineken cup wins and the welsh have none. International rugby is a step up in many ways from club rugby. Dont have a link but it was mentioned somewhere that international rugby is a faster, tougher game. Maybe some of our players are not as good as we think they are?

So the Welsh players are not good enough for HEC success but they are for international!!

Who is wrong in his backroom team? Who should be replaced?
Kiss double jobbing was a poor decision but thats more than likely not the case anymore. Axel is in line to be fulltime coach with Ireland.
Kiss can coach attack.

Foley is in, unproven - Kiss quiet simply cannot coach attack! he is rugby league and was poached purely as a defence coach. Rugby League has no attack tactic so it's very interesting to see how our attack is so predictable (as the Welsh Coach and Players poked in our face last season)

We had beaten Argentina regularly enough(apart from 2 weakened tests the june before 07 world cup) but argentina game was a grudge game. Virtually every ireland argentina game since 1999 has had an edge to it(eye gouging, fights etc). You could never and can never say we should beat argentina. Look back at previous results in virtually every ireland argentina game and the gap is small.

Argentina will progress over the next few seasons while we remain stuck in the same gear.

I'd like to see you explain why so many Lions and European players of the year are nowhere near as good as their English and Welsh counterparts.

ormond lad

corny wrote: »

I'm shaking my head in disbelief tbh but out of interest could you name these players and positions for us?

My take on our best 15

Kearney - Lions fullback. Arguably best fielder of the high ball in the world.
Bowe - Lion and 2010 Six Nations Player of the Championship (50% of vote)
BOD - don't need to make a case
Darcy - nominated for IRB Player Of The Year in 2004 and Six Nations Player Of The Tournament in 2007
Fitzgerald/Earls Both Lions at young age.
Sexton - Best 10 in NH. Will start for the Lions in Australia
9. i'll give you that
Heaslip - Technically best 8 in NH. Lion and sheer class act.
Wallace/SOB - Brilliant ball carriers at any level. SOB official Rugby World Cup website named him one of the tournament's 'Top Five Star Players'. NZ'ers fooking loved him
Ferris - don't need to make a case. When he's fit he plays in any team
POC - Again nuff said
DOC - Not my favourite but he has played in two Lions tours
Ross - Never seen any prop consistently get the better of him.
Best - Will start for Lions. Excellent work rate. Excellent leader.
Healy - Best loosehead in the World imo.

I dont know. When you break things down you do wonder. Maybe many players was wrong to say.
Ross is a fine scrummager but other elements of his game could be better. DOC is consistent. Nothing extra. May have been on 2 lions tours but has lived long on POCs coat tails and not delivered enough.
D Ryan has overtaken DOC and looks better now than DOC has nearly ever looked. Is a real leader and will be a Lion in the summer.
But ye cant just blame management. The management is getting all the blame unfairly here. The players are the one's on the pitch who have to do the work and on many occasions they just have not performed.

seanand

im strangly 100% on phoneheads side ha.

international rugby is so close between 2-10 that it really all comes down to coaching and tactics and playing to the players strenghts. now you can say that there the ones out there but when you train one way for three weeks and then play a game its very hard to change and i dont see a plan b or at least an effective one. bad coaching structure will break a great team but a great coaching structure can make a poor team.

wales play to there strenghts and they all know what to do and when to do it.

as for what to aim for im on the line of aim small be small aim big and maybe shoot for the stars. but then i dont like aims as you can very easily lose sight on whats in front of you. but there needs to be structures in place to bring in the next crop and the underage coaches should be instructed on how we would like to play so in future years its instinctive like nz rugby.

i actually thing nz arnt that far ahead of anyone tbh they have a good few average players but they all instrinctively how to play and work together

corny

ormond lad wrote: »

I dont know. When you break things down you do wonder. Maybe many players was wrong to say.
Ross is a fine scrummager but other elements of his game could be better. DOC is consistent. Nothing extra. May have been on 2 lions tours but has lived long on POCs coat tails and not delivered enough.
D Ryan has overtaken DOC and looks better now than DOC has nearly ever looked. Is a real leader and will be a Lion in the summer.
But ye cant just blame management. The management is getting all the blame unfairly here. The players are the one's on the pitch who have to do the work and on many occasions they just have not performed.

If you agree with my assessment, bar a few minor quibbles, of the players relative strengths then what other conclusion can you draw? You're saying its not the coaches fault because well......its just not the coaches fault.

Look, the coaches job is to get the best from the players available. If he doesn't, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, he steps aside. If you can give me a reason as to why the players would purposely refuse to perform for their country then you may have a case (players fault) but otherwise the ONLY logical conclusion to be drawn is the coaches can't get the best from the team.

ormond lad

Phonehead wrote: »

You can flip the welsh issue very easily. Wales have 3 grand slams since 2005 and we only have 1 but at provincial level we have 5 heineken cup wins and the welsh have none. International rugby is a step up in many ways from club rugby. Dont have a link but it was mentioned somewhere that international rugby is a faster, tougher game. Maybe some of our players are not as good as we think they are?

So the Welsh players are not good enough for HEC success but they are for international!!
Not exactly but how come they can do it at international. Many of the best welsh play in france/england and its young players playing in wales.
Who is wrong in his backroom team? Who should be replaced?
Kiss double jobbing was a poor decision but thats more than likely not the case anymore. Axel is in line to be fulltime coach with Ireland.
Kiss can coach attack.

Foley is in, unproven - Kiss quiet simply cannot coach attack! he is rugby league and was poached purely as a defence coach. Rugby League has no attack tactic so it's very interesting to see how our attack is so predictable (as the Welsh Coach and Players poked in our face last season)
How is Foley unproven? Kiss can coach attack. You havent a clue if you think Rugby League has no attack tactic. Offloading in tackle. Attacking space and manipulating space is vital in rugby league as the play slows for the tackle. There is no ruck in the rugby union sense. If rugby league has no attack tactic then why have new zealand and australia over the years used many players who predominantly played league as youngsters in their backlines like Sonny Bill Williams, Lote Tuquri, Matt Rogers

We had beaten Argentina regularly enough(apart from 2 weakened tests the june before 07 world cup) but argentina game was a grudge game. Virtually every ireland argentina game since 1999 has had an edge to it(eye gouging, fights etc). You could never and can never say we should beat argentina. Look back at previous results in virtually every ireland argentina game and the gap is small.

Argentina will progress over the next few seasons while we remain stuck in the same gear.

I'd like to see you explain why so many Lions and European players of the year are nowhere near as good as their English and Welsh counterparts.

Im saying International rugby is a step up. Our players are not as good as we think. International rugby is faster, hits are harder than all but a very small number of club games(some of the Leinster Clermont games have been close)
We should be doing better but we have to look at everything from the very bottom and im including the overhyped schools cups and underage comps to how we deal with those in the extended pro squad who dont play much pro12 rugby if we are to do well at international level

eoferrall

ormond lad wrote: »

I dont know. When you break things down you do wonder. Maybe many players was wrong to say.
Ross is a fine scrummager but other elements of his game could be better. DOC is consistent. Nothing extra. May have been on 2 lions tours but has lived long on POCs coat tails and not delivered enough.
D Ryan has overtaken DOC and looks better now than DOC has nearly ever looked. Is a real leader and will be a Lion in the summer.
But ye cant just blame management. The management is getting all the blame unfairly here. The players are the one's on the pitch who have to do the work and on many occasions they just have not performed.

But in fairness there is very little between the top teams in the world in terms of players first 15, realistically on paper anyone in the top 8 could beat another top 8 team on any given day. the margins are small and therefore the tactics and coaching are the difference. I don't believe the players fully know what to be doing. when they get up for a match agression and passion often pull them over. BUT as has been shown on a consistent basis, they are disjointed usually. That in my opinion is due to the coaching.

Take Ulster or Leinster, both teams know EXACTLY what someone will do in a given situation, all 15 know the aim the approach and where to be and what to do. exactly like the all blacks etc. munster are heading this way again (in fairness they always did, kick and chase!:p) that is the difference, and while it may not be explicitly Kidneys doing, he is the coach, the boss and thus takes the responsibility for the coaching ticket. its not working for whatever reason, too much training in units and not as a team I don't know, but something is not clicking to complete the team.

seanand

eof read my comment i think were twins ha

ormond lad

seanand wrote: »

im strangly 100% on phoneheads side ha.
international rugby is so close between 2-10 that it really all comes down to coaching and tactics and playing to the players strenghts. now you can say that there the ones out there but when you train one way for three weeks and then play a game its very hard to change and i dont see a plan b or at least an effective one. bad coaching structure will break a great team but a great coaching structure can make a poor team.

wales play to there strenghts and they all know what to do and when to do it.

as for what to aim for im on the line of aim small be small aim big and maybe shoot for the stars. but then i dont like aims as you can very easily lose sight on whats in front of you. but there needs to be structures in place to bring in the next crop and the underage coaches should be instructed on how we would like to play so in future years its instinctive like nz rugby.

i actually thing nz arnt that far ahead of anyone tbh they have a good few average players but they all instrinctively how to play and work together

But why shoot for the stars when you will prob fail. why not aim for something realistic and then build on that success and aim for something slightly tougher and on and on until you reach the top.
NZ are far ahead of nearly everyone because their basic skills are near perfect and do the basics better than anyone else.

corny wrote: »

If you agree with my assessment, bar a few minor quibbles, of the players relative strengths then what other conclusion can you draw? You're saying its not the coaches fault because well......its just not the coaches fault.

Look, the coaches job is to get the best from the players available. If he doesn't, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, he steps aside. If you can give me a reason as to why the players would purposely refuse to perform for their country then you may have a case (players fault) but otherwise the ONLY logical conclusion to be drawn is the coaches can't get the best from the team.

Its up to the players as much as the coach. They have to do the work once the whistle blows.
The coach does have to get the best out of their players.
If

seanand

Were just after coming from a group that won an u20 wc why didnt we built on that, the group thats finishing up was called to golden generaftion, we won triple crowns and a grand slam why didnt we build on that? we have a large group of lions tourists so they must be good, we have about what about 50ish players that play regular Heineken cup games supposedly some games in that are as close to international lvl that you can get why cant we build on that?

Why do we have to be a country that expects so little but have produced world class players i do think we should have a wc final already under out belt at least and not just happy with a semi final. why do wales franch england sa aus and nz be the only countries where they fans aim to win the wc

FewFew

ormond lad wrote: »

Yes but we have to beat all nations on a regular basis before looking to number 1. How can we aim for number 1 when we rarely have been in the top 4. Build up towards the top spot but you cant do that immediately

On any given Sunday...


Rugby is certainly one game where the management can completely steer the ship. Much less room for individual actions leading to great success. You have to know where the ball is going and what everyone is trying to achieve. You need the management to decide all this stuff. Making the tackles and performing the specific roles is all down to the individuals, but none of that is going to win you matches.

eoferrall

seanand wrote: »

eof read my comment i think were twins ha

we were typing the same time too.... GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!:mad:

corny

ormond lad wrote: »

Its up to the players as much as the coach. They have to do the work once the whistle blows.

Thats true but what you refuse to address is why aren't they performing?

Why do you point blank refuse to consider its the coaches fault?

ormond lad

seanand wrote: »

Were just after coming from a group that won an u20 wc why didnt we built on that, the group thats finishing up was called to golden generaftion, we won triple crowns and a grand slam why didnt we build on that? we have a large group of lions tourists so they must be good, we have about what about 50ish players that play regular Heineken cup games supposedly some games in that are as close to international lvl that you can get why cant we build on that?

Why do we have to be a country that expects so little but have produced world class players i do think we should have a wc final already under out belt at least and not just happy with a semi final. why do wales franch england sa aus and nz be the only countries where they fans aim to win the wc

The 20s side didnt win the junior world cup. they finished 5th.
You have to give time if we are to build on that. Most of those 20s are Leinster players and they cant get academy contracts or if they are on pro contracts they are behind now triple heineken cup winners so cant get gametime in the pro league.
We have been building on that generation.
We dont have 50ish players that play regular heineken cup rugby. Of the 80+ players that play each week in the heineken cup for the 4 provinces there is upwards of 20 who are NIQ and another 20+ who are not international standard nowadays or prob ever will be international standard. So that is a smaller number than you would think
Im sorry to say but you are mad if you think we should already have a world cup final under our belt. Which world cup should we have reached the final?
England/France/Saffers/Ozzies/All Blacks can aim to win the world cup for very genuine reasons. They have huge depth and their play and mindset gets them far.

Phonehead

The Welsh player only left last season after their regions had a clearout! Honestly think about it, you are saying The English Premiership is better than the Pro 12

I'm sorry but I'm not debating Rugby League attack, there is no point arguing if you think bash bash kick is anyway near the intelligent lines required in Union. It is very rare that a League player crosses over successfully.... Very rare indeed

This debate is like banging your head off a wall here, first you say our players are useless and can't make the bridge from HEC to International, yet you ignore the fact that the Premiership teams and Welsh teams are in the Irish teams slipstream at club level (the same players who are performing better at international level)

ormond lad

Phonehead wrote: »

The Welsh player only left last season after their regions had a clearout! Honestly think about it, you are saying The English Premiership is better than the Pro 12

I'm sorry but I'm not debating Rugby League attack, there is no point arguing if you think bash bash kick is anyway near the intelligent lines required in Union. It is very rare that a League player crosses over successfully.... Very rare indeed

This debate is like banging your head off a wall here, first you say our players are useless and can't make the bridge from HEC to International, yet you ignore the fact that the Premiership teams and Welsh teams are in the Irish teams slipstream at club level (the same players who are performing better at international level)

No im debating the issue. Yet again you are making assumptions about me. I never said our players were useless. I said some who have done well with the provinces are not international standard. James Coughlan is a good strong provincial heineken cup standard player but nobody will be looking for him in an Ireland jersey. He would make a lot of heineken cup teams but wouldnt make a national set up.
The players have said that international rugby is a different pace and a step up from provincial rugby.
Rugby league isnt bash bash kick. You dont watch league if you think its like that.

seanand

sorry u19s won the wc my bad we didnt build on that did we?
ok 60 players and maybe 20+ are and never will be international quality as you say that still leaves 40 or so and since you can only put 15 on a pitch at one time all getting plenty game time and a lot of the time winning against teams with just as much internationals.

weve underperformed at the last two wcs massively if you ask me.

england france and aus rugby union isnt the first sport either so do they really have that much more depth than us. and again we can put out a team of 22 that would push for a place on all those teams except nz and prob sa forward unit

and wait how come there play and mindset that much better than us i wonder, is it because kidneys biggest tactic is were the underdogs look at us were ****

also out u20s for the last 3-4 seasons have been regularly pushing for grandslams at u20 level so we should have quality players coming through the same as every other nation