Life outside BR

ormond lad

Phonehead wrote: »

Nowhere near as bad??? we are battling to stay in the top 8, haven't beaten any top sides consistently and yes I think Munster bias is evident in the Irish setup! Munster are the 3rd best province now yet Deccie consistently picks players who wear red. How anyone can think this Irish team has performed well in more than 3 years is living in Frankie Sheehan land

We havent been consistent but things could be worse.
By your post you would think we were down in 12th place in the world rankings like scotland currently are but we are in 8th which is in and around where we have been ranked for a considerable period
Munster are the 3rd province based on last season and this season so far but signs are good and we are going to improve a huge amount over the remainder of this season and next season under Penney and Mannix. Drop the insults we have been very inconsistent but if Kidney is to go who do you recommend to replace him

FewFew

Let's not take things personally gents, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Let's endeavor to keep all toys securely in their correct places. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a reminder. Prevention is better than cure as they always say. They being the vaccine peddlers I assume.

Phonehead

I don't mean to be funny but there were no insults Frankie Sheehan land is a well know rugby land where everything is perfect as they are. Obviously you are happy with 8th and using Scotland a s a benchmark, I prefer to see the players at our disposal and think we should be beating Wales,England and France.

corny

I agree with Phonehead.

If i was picking the team and everyone was fit i'd have one (maybe two) Munster players in the team. Thats not anti Munster ****e, just a recognition that Leinster are HC champions and Ulster were beaten finalists and are still undefeated. Both sides play to a much higher standard.

I also think we're in for rude awakening in the 6N's. We played well against Fiji and Argentina but you can't ignore the fact both sides wanted to be elsewhere. Its when our carriers don't make the metres that you'll see the same old weaknesses come to the fore.

As for Kidney? I have zero faith that he can do a good job. The best i can hope for is if he stumbles upon a decent team (what he does) and Kiss excels and takes control of the way we go about playing rugby. Either way, for me, the past 3 years are unforgivable. We lost our standing in NH rugby when logic dictates we should have been the dominant force. I think i'll cry if he gets the extension.

satory

ormond lad wrote: »

O Connell should be in the team in nearly all situations when fit. Donnacha o Callaghan hasnt been the greatest but has improved very recently.

DK has been picking his teams based alot on reputation, and when POC or BOD are fit they are automatic starters in the green jersey. We don't have the players to continue to do that was the old guard get older... DK should be looking at other options even when POC or BOD are fit as they wont be around come the next world cup, and hopefully DK isn't either... Furthering this ROG shouldnt be picked in the squad, if all he is going to get is 10-15 mins here and there, as we need to start giving international game time to his replacement, Jackson?

The next Irish manager I think needs to come from outside of Ireland, someone who could come in and have zero bias against any of the 4 provinces... The Scots haven't snatched Mallet yet have they?

eoferrall

This maybe sacriligious but at a certain point we're going to have to bite the bullet and drop players like BOD and POC.

I do not see currently much difference in performance between say Ryan and POC, in fact I would argue Ryan is better. IF POC got fit and played a consistent run, then yes if was worthy of a place pick him. no worries.

BOD, I feel he lacks some of the creativity he had in years gone by. Fantastic reader of the game to put people in space and be the awesome defender he is. But I feel he is lacking a certain cutting edge he used to have. personally I don't feel defenses quake in their boots when BOD plays these days. If we play BOD (and we should if fit still...) we need creative players around him, marshall in 12 gilroy/zebo on wings for instance.

D'Arcy and BOD are still good players, but as a combination they are too solid and i feel lack the spark/unpredictability to crack open defenses at international level.

In leinster they have Isa, RK etc (when team is fit) also creating holes and space and a faster game plan/tactics.

I feel the combination does not work with the slower international game we play (which we shouldn't) and also as said our attack is flat without a spark. our attack functions when players like SOB are punching holes and sending the defense backwards, but we still do not create tries like we did 5/6 years ago Eddie peaked around 2005/2006 and then crashed out in 2007.

We need to go back to 2005/2006 levels and push on from there.

The problem I see it is that 4 years later, DK has been in charge for 4 years and we are in the EXACT same position as when he took over after Eddies crash which cost him his job.

In AI's 2008 we NEEDED to beat Argentina to stay in the top 8, in AI's 2012 we NEEDED to beat Argentina to stay in top 8. this is the significant problem as I see it. we have gone no where from 2007/2008.

ormond lad

Phonehead wrote: »

I don't mean to be funny but there were no insults Frankie Sheehan land is a well know rugby land where everything is perfect as they are. Obviously you are happy with 8th and using Scotland a s a benchmark, I prefer to see the players at our disposal and think we should be beating Wales,England and France.

Stop with the Frankie Sheahan Land. That was insulting and certainly isnt what you are implying it is
Im not perfectly happy with 8th place, but while yes i would prefer us to be beating england, wales, france the way you are talking about things you would think we are down in 12th like scotland. We could and should be higher and i wasnt using scotland as a benchmark. The benchmark is the southern hem big 3 who are consistently in the top 4 in the world

corny wrote: »

I agree with Phonehead.

If i was picking the team and everyone was fit i'd have one (maybe two) Munster players in the team. Thats not anti Munster ****e, just a recognition that Leinster are HC champions and Ulster were beaten finalists and are still undefeated. Both sides play to a much higher standard.

I also think we're in for rude awakening in the 6N's. We played well against Fiji and Argentina but you can't ignore the fact both sides wanted to be elsewhere. Its when our carriers don't make the metres that you'll see the same old weaknesses come to the fore.

As for Kidney? I have zero faith that he can do a good job. The best i can hope for is if he stumbles upon a decent team (what he does) and Kiss excels and takes control of the way we go about playing rugby. Either way, for me, the past 3 years are unforgivable. We lost our standing in NH rugby when logic dictates we should have been the dominant force. I think i'll cry if he gets the extension.

Ok if theirs to be only 2 munster players which 2? POC and DR are our best 2 2nd rows and Earls and Murray should be in the team on merit
That is very unfair on Kidney when you talk about hoping he stumbles upon a decent team. International rugby is a step up in many ways from provincial rugby. Logic means f-all as if you looked at the welsh regions logically the welsh national side would be very poor

satory wrote: »

DK has been picking his teams based alot on reputation, and when POC or BOD are fit they are automatic starters in the green jersey. We don't have the players to continue to do that was the old guard get older... DK should be looking at other options even when POC or BOD are fit as they wont be around come the next world cup, and hopefully DK isn't either... Furthering this ROG shouldnt be picked in the squad, if all he is going to get is 10-15 mins here and there, as we need to start giving international game time to his replacement, Jackson?

The next Irish manager I think needs to come from outside of Ireland, someone who could come in and have zero bias against any of the 4 provinces... The Scots haven't snatched Mallet yet have they?

While you do need to look at other options. why drop 2 of the best players in the world? What games would you honestly not start POC/BOD if theyre fit?

eoferrall

ormond lad wrote: »

Ok if theirs to be only 2 munster players which 2? POC and DR are our best 2 2nd rows and Earls and Murray should be in the team on merit

I'm not sure POC is our best 2nd row anymore, he has barely played for two seasons now and must be approaching being regarded as not available. But personally I would like to see him fit again and playing for Munster and EARN his place back. If he is playing to the level he used to, then it should not take long. IMO DR and McCarthy have more than earned their place as current holder of the jersey. They have been standouts in the matches played, superb performances.

Earls has been better than I thought he would, but is not a top class 13 - no disrespect to him by that not everyone is. comparing him to Conrad smith, BOD in his pomp etc may be unfair but that is the level I aspire ALL players representing Ireland to be. If he is the best we have, that is fine with me. But very few other players have been given a chance, Cave did well against Fiji and got no reward for instance. Earls has an eye for the try line no doubt, but I don't see him creating space and putting players away. he makes breaks etc, but can be marked out of a game, players like BOD and Conrad can not be marked out. block one avenue and they do something else.

Murray i would disagree with being in team on merit, squad yes but team no. I still think Reddan is a better scrumhalf. I have also been very impressed with Marshall over the last two seasons. Murray is improving, but I think he would be better in munster rather than being catapulted into Ireland squad. Stringer was the best scrumhalf we had for nearly a decade, and it was his pass that made him head and shoulders above the rest. Murray played very well against Argentina, but he has been in the team a year now and needs to be playing to that level consistently.

ormond lad wrote: »

That is very unfair on Kidney when you talk about hoping he stumbles upon a decent team. International rugby is a step up in many ways from provincial rugby. Logic means f-all as if you looked at the welsh regions logically the welsh national side would be very poor

This is an often thrown out comment and I agree there is merit, but surely that means our structures need improving. If Wales can take a bunch of underwhelming welsh teams (ospreys aside) and turn them into regular grand slam winners what are we doing wrong? They have won more GS in the last 10 years than we have ever, yet everyone would agree we had the better bunch of players in the comparable period?

ormond lad wrote: »

While you do need to look at other options. why drop 2 of the best players in the world? What games would you honestly not start POC/BOD if theyre fit?

I would rest them for matches like Scotland and Italy. We should have have enough of a quality squad to beat these teams without one or two players, plus they would be good tests of their replacements. If they struggle we should still win, but we'd know they are not adequate for the international level.

two players is probably harsh on the posters part, but there has to be a significant portion from leinster and Ulster. Leinster have won 3 of the last 4 HEC, Ulster beaten finalists and rampant this season so far, unbeaten in all matches. I would hazard to say that Ulster are the top team in Ireland on form currently due to leinsters injury and stuttering start to the season.

As you say Munster are coming back, but have a long way to go personally to regain top team tag, I think leinster reached their peak and while I hope they can do the triple (and also the season double) I don't think realistically we will. The injuries and the stuttering form mean we are struggling, but not out yet so we never know. Ulster look very good bet to go far again this season with a young team

ormond lad

eoferrall wrote: »

I'm not sure POC is our best 2nd row anymore, he has barely played for two seasons now and must be approaching being regarded as not available. But personally I would like to see him fit again and playing for Munster and EARN his place back. If he is playing to the level he used to, then it should not take long. IMO DR and McCarthy have more than earned their place as current holder of the jersey. They have been standouts in the matches played, superb
performances.

When he fit he is our best option. Donnacha and MmcC have more than earned the jersey but tbf when exactly have we had 1 of the top 3/4 players in a position. If POC/BOD are fit theyll play

This is an often thrown out comment and I agree there is merit, but surely that means our structures need improving. If Wales can take a bunch of underwhelming welsh teams (ospreys aside) and turn them into regular grand slam winners what are we doing wrong? They have won more GS in the last 10 years than we have ever, yet everyone would agree we had the better bunch of players in the comparable period?

I think its more that the welsh in some ways havent caught on with the regions than our structures are wrong. The welsh look like an entirely different breed when they pull on the national jersey

I would rest them for matches like Scotland and Italy. We should have have enough of a quality squad to beat these teams without one or two players, plus they would be good tests of their replacements. If they struggle we should still win, but we'd know they are not adequate for the international level.

That will never happen. Italian and Scottish games are 6 nations games and we will never rotate our best players for those games when the players are fit.

corny

ormond lad wrote: »

Ok if theirs to be only 2 munster players which 2? POC and DR are our best 2 2nd rows and Earls and Murray should be in the team on merit
That is very unfair on Kidney when you talk about hoping he stumbles upon a decent team. International rugby is a step up in many ways from provincial rugby. Logic means f-all as if you looked at the welsh regions logically the welsh national side would be very poor

I'd have POC, fit and well he's still our best second row, and i probably would choose Ryan but McCarthy wouldn't let you down. I wouldn't play Murray and Earls doesn't deserve the blind loyalty he's shown. He makes a poor centre. His running lines are terrible and his passing isn't even HC standard. He's a wing but my personal preference would be the two Ulster lads.

And its most certainly not unfair on Kidney. Every single evolution has been forced upon him. He picked SOB 6 months to a year after it was blindingly obvious the boy had ability and he only picked Ross (who is vital now) because Hayes and Buckley were injured. They're just two instances off the top of my head.

Its hardly heresy to say he's had problems picking a decent team is it?

eoferrall

ormond lad wrote: »

That will never happen. Italian and Scottish games are 6 nations games and we will never rotate our best players for those games when the players are fit.

But that is entirely my point, we should be. doesn't matter that they are 6 nations or AI's etc. if the team is weaker we can switch in one or two players to test out.

The player has to play against them at somepoint. why not when we can have BOD on bench incase all goes pearshaped rather than when he is gone fullstop?

ormond lad

corny wrote: »

I'd have POC, fit and well he's still our best second row, and i probably would choose Ryan but McCarthy wouldn't let you down. I wouldn't play Murray and Earls doesn't deserve the blind loyalty he's shown. He makes a poor centre. His running lines are terrible and his passing isn't even HC standard. He's a wing but my personal preference would be the two Ulster lads.

And its most certainly not unfair on Kidney. Every single evolution has been forced upon him. He picked SOB 6 months to a year after it was blindingly obvious the boy had ability and he only picked Ross (who is vital now) because Hayes and Buckley were injured. They're just two instances off the top of my head.

Its hardly heresy to say he's had problems picking a decent team is it?

Earls has shown he can play 13. He is being compared to o driscoll at 13 and every player will lose out in a comparison with BOD. Earls running lines are fine at 13 and his passing which was poor is good now.
Their was a few bad calls by kidney but every coach makes bad calls at one stage or another.
Earls can play 13, he is an outside centre, always has been and only played on the wing as their was better options for ireland and munster when he started out as a pro

corny

ormond lad wrote: »

Earls has shown he can play 13. He is being compared to o driscoll at 13 and every player will lose out in a comparison with BOD. Earls running lines are fine at 13 and his passing which was poor is good now.
Their was a few bad calls by kidney but every coach makes bad calls at one stage or another.
Earls can play 13, he is an outside centre, always has been and only played on the wing as their was better options for ireland and munster when he started out as a pro

You and i are watching a different game then so.

eoferrall

My personal impression is that his first instinct is to look for a gap and if there is space to break, and then look for the pass.

He is an adequate 13 is how I would describe him. will not set the world on fire but wont have any serious bloopers. his defense and all round game is good, I just feel he is instinctively a winger.

Much like Horgan was played in the centre for a long time and was OK, once stayed on wing and solely the wing became a phenomenal player.

the 13 issue is not the big one for me, i'm fairly OK with it. he's fine in there and I suppose it is a horses for courses selection maybe I am wanting. in a game that is open Earls would be the man, space and he will kill you. in a tighter affair I think Cave is better as I think has more vision/better range of passing.

The players are not a huge issue, what gets me is the overall lack of coherency in the team. We saw against Argentina, Australia and England (last three good test performances I can think of) a clear ambition and shape to the game. it is no coincidence when the team all read of the same set of instructions we played and beat the best. Other times we've played as individuals, lack of structure and control is evident. players didn't seem aware of the ambition. Players standing still taking the ball on and so on, criminal at international level and something the Boks devoured.

westman1

irelands big problem is that the four provinces all play different rugby now that we have three kiwi coaches in the provinces we might see an improvement in NZ your local dirt track team plays the exact same style as the national team here we dont even have a style

Phonehead

westman1 wrote: »

irelands big problem is that the four provinces all play different rugby now that we have three kiwi coaches in the provinces we might see an improvement in NZ your local dirt track team plays the exact same style as the national team here we dont even have a style

Unfortunately we are playing Kidney style so it makes no difference, did you hear the Johnny Sexton interview last week on Newstalk where he said it was frustrating to play with Murray? everyone now thinks Murray is good after playing against Fiji (below AIL standard) and an Argentina who simply had no gas left in the tank and their game is based on speed of the defencive line. Wait until the six nations and the trench warfare starts, then we will see Irelands lack of a game plan materialize as per usual.

eoferrall

Phonehead wrote: »

Unfortunately we are playing Kidney style so it makes no difference, did you hear the Johnny Sexton interview last week on Newstalk where he said it was frustrating to play with Murray? everyone now thinks Murray is good after playing against Fiji (below AIL standard) and an Argentina who simply had no gas left in the tank and their game is based on speed of the defencive line. Wait until the six nations and the trench warfare starts, then we will see Irelands lack of a game plan materialize as per usual.

when was this? would be interested to see if a podcast is available

Phonehead

It was his one on one with Posh Boy Hick, possibly Thursday

eoferrall

Phonehead wrote: »

It was his one on one with Posh Boy Hick, possibly Thursday

I'll investigate, thanks

corny

Phonehead wrote: »

Unfortunately we are playing Kidney style so it makes no difference, did you hear the Johnny Sexton interview last week on Newstalk where he said it was frustrating to play with Murray? everyone now thinks Murray is good after playing against Fiji (below AIL standard) and an Argentina who simply had no gas left in the tank and their game is based on speed of the defencive line. Wait until the six nations and the trench warfare starts, then we will see Irelands lack of a game plan materialize as per usual.

Understandable. Reddan makes mistakes and is by no means the finished article but his pass is superior and his speed to the breakdown is superior.

Makes you wonder why Kidney is so averse to playing them together.

FewFew

eoferrall wrote: »

But that is entirely my point, we should be. doesn't matter that they are 6 nations or AI's etc. if the team is weaker we can switch in one or two players to test out.

I know it's wooooorlds apart, but it's a tactic that makes sense to pretty much everyone when sitting at their keyboard playing BR, so I don't think it's too outlandish to not start one or two big names from the Irish squad when we're playing the weaker teams.

I'm pretty out of touch with the various players these days, so I'm not going to try argue positions, but in terms of Kidney's selections, surely you just have to look across the water for examples of how uplifting new blood can be. You've got Wales consistently fighting to avoid the bottom for a time, then they bring in a load of new faces and suddenly they're grand slam machines.
Likewise with England, they were getting the dolldrums, still a decent side but you wouldn't fear them... then before the world cup they draft in a load of cocky arrogant young players who seem to destroy all before them.

I'm not assuming we have some switch we can flick labelled "Rejuvenate," but certainly there are arguments there for trying more young players more frequently.

I know it's a different ball game in terms of player base, but I wonder how the odds stack up when you compare the Irish team with the likes of the All Blacks who have (I think) a pretty regular turnover.

Edit: Actually, that All Blacks point was somewhat of a wrong assumption. Their average player age at the last WC was 28. Ours was 29.

seanand

theres not many players atm who play up to the standard they set at there club, i cant wait for kidney to go the tactics just dont suit the players and is as people have said too loyal to certain players and almost stumbles on good selections.

what pisses me off is he use to say he picks players on form but as soon as poc and bod are back theyll be straight in, marshall has been the best scrumhalf and doesnt get look in

i could say alot more but im sick of repeating myself. plus can people back off with the bias 1st of i like to see irish teams do well and if one of them is munster even better

Phonehead

It's hard to do any comparison to the All Blacks, we simply don't produce the same quality as they do! would we see the likes of McFadden, Zebo or Trimble even being considered as wingers for their super 15 teams? I know it's hard for me to be objective when it comes to Ireland, IMO we have seen Kidney persist with O'Leary and then parachute O'Leary 2.0 into the frame when he finally admitted that O'Leary wasn't up to it.

Deccie is set in his ways, he demands loyalty and in return he is hugely loyal! People try to avoid the fact that Kidney had a serious clash of personalities when he coached Leinster, subconsciously I think that's why his glasses are somewhat red tinted. We have superb second rows in McCarthy and Tuohy but can anyone really see O'Callaghan or a 1/3 fit O'Connell being dropped for these guys? O'Gara has been huge for Ireland but why at his age and with no chance of making the next WC is he still there? Buckley was the biggest indication of Kidneys red glasses, he kept persisting with him ahead of Ross... please can anyone justify that if it's not bias?

seanand

darcy, paddy wallace, i can prob name a few out of form players but while i agree he turned out to be a poor coach hes not bias just stupid

TheJims

as a quick change of pace, heres Nick Evans choice for the first XV for the Lions next summer, i like to see actual players views on whos the best man for each position!

http://youtu.be/lT0F8ByQLic



MY only bone of contention is him picking his teammate Danny Care at 9. Personally id have Mike Philips, but i dont know how his fitness will be around the end of year, considering he was Balls'ed after 60mins against the All Blacks!

Im sure Locks, 7 and 8 will have people second guessing, as Lawes isnt a fan favourite, Warburton isnt in anyway good form the last few month.Easter is a great 8 but i dont know about a place in the starting 15.

Opinions from all?? preferably friendly opinions!

ormond lad

Phonehead wrote: »

It's hard to do any comparison to the All Blacks, we simply don't produce the same quality as they do! would we see the likes of McFadden, Zebo or Trimble even being considered as wingers for their super 15 teams? I know it's hard for me to be objective when it comes to Ireland, IMO we have seen Kidney persist with O'Leary and then parachute O'Leary 2.0 into the frame when he finally admitted that O'Leary wasn't up to it.

Deccie is set in his ways, he demands loyalty and in return he is hugely loyal! People try to avoid the fact that Kidney had a serious clash of personalities when he coached Leinster, subconsciously I think that's why his glasses are somewhat red tinted. We have superb second rows in McCarthy and Tuohy but can anyone really see O'Callaghan or a 1/3 fit O'Connell being dropped for these guys? O'Gara has been huge for Ireland but why at his age and with no chance of making the next WC is he still there? Buckley was the biggest indication of Kidneys red glasses, he kept persisting with him ahead of Ross... please can anyone justify that if it's not bias?

O Callaghan has already been dropped from the starting team for D Ryan and now that he is not regularly starting for Munster(when DR and POC are fit) it is likely he will not be involved with ireland.
Unfair on Murray to call him TOL 2.0 he is better than TOL.
Mike Mac and Tuohy are good players but are behind Ryan and POC and rightfully so.

Phonehead

Good idea, Ireland debates are sooo last season, I can't see the selction you posted?

TheJims

added pic and video to first post :P

seanand

tbf not bad 8 and 9 will be lucky to make the tour but i think both are up for grabs and there hasnt been a standout 8 or 9. i dont think roberts is the player he used to be but theres no one else at 12 i can think off. the wings as far as i know are on the wrong sides bowes usually a 14 and north is usually a 11. also i think halpenny will be pushing for no.15 jersey

ormond lad

Phonehead wrote: »

It's hard to do any comparison to the All Blacks, we simply don't produce the same quality as they do! would we see the likes of McFadden, Zebo or Trimble even being considered as wingers for their super 15 teams? I know it's hard for me to be objective when it comes to Ireland, IMO we have seen Kidney persist with O'Leary and then parachute O'Leary 2.0 into the frame when he finally admitted that O'Leary wasn't up to it.

Deccie is set in his ways, he demands loyalty and in return he is hugely loyal! People try to avoid the fact that Kidney had a serious clash of personalities when he coached Leinster, subconsciously I think that's why his glasses are somewhat red tinted. We have superb second rows in McCarthy and Tuohy but can anyone really see O'Callaghan or a 1/3 fit O'Connell being dropped for these guys? O'Gara has been huge for Ireland but why at his age and with no chance of making the next WC is he still there? Buckley was the biggest indication of Kidneys red glasses, he kept persisting with him ahead of Ross... please can anyone justify that if it's not bias?

Stop with the anti munster and the nicknames. You are so anti munster its unbelievable. Zebo prob would be considered a winger over there, has the speed, his defence is good and can kick. McFadden and Trimble im not sure theyd have the out and out speed many wingers in NZ have
What about Donnacha Ryan. You dont mention him, he is in irish team on merit and is pushing for a Lions spot.

seanand wrote: »

darcy, paddy wallace, i can prob name a few out of form players but while i agree he turned out to be a poor coach hes not bias just stupid

Kidney is not stupid. Lads not trying to be mod or anything but will ye stop saying things like Kidney is stupid. He has been a very successfull coach and we are more than capable of winning another 6 nations this season under DK