Life outside BR

Gelio

ormond lad wrote: »

whole set up does need a look at from the very bottom and underage coaching to the very top and tactics/selection of the pro teams

Does it though? Leinster have the bust underage set up in the northern hemisphere. The only think that needs fixing is right at the top imo

we are not travelling to new zealand for 12 years due to the new IRB summer tours schedule which this is the first year.
they will come and play us on autumn tours, the all blacks rate very few teams(and why wouldnt they not rate anyone considering their match win% against everyone)
Kidney has been poor the last while but its the players as well that hav been poor. our success at heineken cup level is super but heineken cup level is a step below international level and we dont seem to have the ability to step up at international level.
Whats the relevencee in saying leinster are better than crusaders??

That's what I'm saying we won't play them this Autumn and probably not the one after. Exactly we have to earn their respect.
Yes the players carry some of the blame but why are they so poor for country? The system Kidney has in place doesn't allow them to play to their potential. It's his job to bring these players together and ultimately get results.
Yes HC is a step down from international for the most part but that still doesn't explain why our players can dominate others in the HC and when it comes to international level get beaten off the park. I also don't think there is that huge of a difference between late stages of HC and international. Excluding the top 4, what other teams could have lived with Leinster in the first half of that game against Ulster?
Crusaders are traditionally one of the best super 15 teams and if our top club are better than them why can't our national team be?

ormond lad

ajeffares wrote: »

Does it though? Leinster have the bust underage set up in the northern hemisphere. The only think that needs fixing is right at the top imo

That's what I'm saying we won't play them this Autumn and probably not the one after. Exactly we have to earn their respect.
Yes the players carry some of the blame but why are they so poor for country? The system Kidney has in place doesn't allow them to play to their potential. It's his job to bring these players together and ultimately get results.
Yes HC is a step down from international for the most part but that still doesn't explain why our players can dominate others in the HC and when it comes to international level get beaten off the park. I also don't think there is that huge of a difference between late stages of HC and international. Excluding the top 4, what other teams could have lived with Leinster in the first half of that game against Ulster?
Crusaders are traditionally one of the best super 15 teams and if our top club are better than them why can't our national team be?

The whole structure does need a look at. the schools cup is great for getting many kids ready to academy level but the structures of the schools comps and the pressures put on kids lead to many quitting as soon as they finish school and should be adapted for the benefit of producing even more top players and keeping more lads playing the game.
Leinster would have an even better set up if things were changed.
How can you say leinster are better than the crusaders? When have they played each other???

Gelio

ormond lad wrote: »

The whole structure does need a look at. the schools cup is great for getting many kids ready to academy level but the structures of the schools comps and the pressures put on kids lead to many quitting as soon as they finish school and should be adapted for the benefit of producing even more top players and keeping more lads playing the game.
Leinster would have an even better set up if things were changed.
How can you say leinster are better than the crusaders? When have they played each other???

I don't think so. There is no such thing as the perfect system but at the moment there are no players being missed. Any player with potential is immediately in whatever Leinster team is there for them. Apart from that, if someone isn't enjoying playing rugby there is nothing you can do. People are always going to finish school and get a bit lazy. It's just the way things are. We are producing fantastic talent at a fantastic rate.
Just my opinion as I said. No evidence whatsoever and many people will disagree.

ormond lad

ajeffares wrote: »

I don't think so. There is no such thing as the perfect system but at the moment there are no players being missed. Any player with potential is immediately in whatever Leinster team is there for them. Apart from that, if someone isn't enjoying playing rugby there is nothing you can do. People are always going to finish school and get a bit lazy. It's just the way things are. We are producing fantastic talent at a fantastic rate.
Just my opinion as I said. No evidence whatsoever and many people will disagree.

Look at the numbers dropping out of the game after they finish schools rugby. the ridiculous media attention/training camps abroad etc in schools cups and then that disappears for most kids when they go to clubs to play u21 and 2nds/3rds rugby.
There will always be a drop off rate from when kids play in school to their early 20s but not at the rate there is
Schools rugby isnt the be all and end all and the attention the likes of ward/cummiskey put on the comps is well over the top

corny

The Irish system is churning out top quality players at elite level (thats the issue really). The U20's finished 5th, beat the champions and were a bit unlucky the draw killed them in SA. Leinster could field 3 teams under 25 capable of living in Pro 12. Ulster aren't that far behind.

The problem, as if we need telling, is in the coaching. I don't want to insult DK but how the man is still in charge i'll never know. We have a terrible win ratio under him and its a shame he's given credit for the 2009 success because that was EOS's team. He picks players out of position, doesn't know how to build a squad and probably worst of all our attacking structures are on a par with Romania or Georgia or Scotland even:eek: All the while our provinces play rugby the envy of the NH. We'd dominate, and i don't say that lightly, the 6N's with a decent coach.

I was like ajeffares watching on Saturday morning. No anger, no frustration just very sad than a very good generation of Irish players are falling miles short of their potential. Said it before but coaching is everything at Elite level.

BTW feel no sympathy for the rugby mods. They run too tight a ship for my liking in the first place.

ormond lad

corny wrote: »

The Irish system is churning out top quality players at elite level (thats the issue really). The U20's finished 5th, beat the champions and were a bit unlucky the draw killed them in SA. Leinster could field 3 teams under 25 capable of living in Pro 12. Ulster aren't that far behind.

The problem, as if we need telling, is in the coaching. I don't want to insult DK but how the man is still in charge i'll never know. We have a terrible win ratio under him and its a shame he's given credit for the 2009 success because that was EOS's team. He picks players out of position, doesn't know how to build a squad and probably worst of all our attacking structures are on a par with Romania or Georgia or Scotland even:eek: All the while our provinces play rugby the envy of the NH. We'd dominate, and i don't say that lightly, the 6N's with a decent coach.

I was like ajeffares watching on Saturday morning. No anger, no frustration just very sad than a very good generation of Irish players are falling miles short of their potential. Said it before but coaching is everything at Elite level.

BTW feel no sympathy for the rugby mods. They run too tight a ship for my liking in the first place.

Highlighted piece is rubbish. no they couldnt
the 09 team wasnt EOSs team, EOS had taken them as far as he could and couldnt get them over the top to win a championship/grand slam. kidney has now more than likely taken ireland as far as he can and should go
He doesnt know how to use a squad. he keeps picking the same players over and over which imo is something he has kept from being a schools cup coach
we are well above georgia/romania. comparing ourselves to them is hyperbole

Gelio

ormond lad wrote: »

Look at the numbers dropping out of the game after they finish schools rugby. the ridiculous media attention/training camps abroad etc in schools cups and then that disappears for most kids when they go to clubs to play u21 and 2nds/3rds rugby.
There will always be a drop off rate from when kids play in school to their early 20s but not at the rate there is
Schools rugby isnt the be all and end all and the attention the likes of ward/cummiskey put on the comps is well over the top

Meh, most sports are the same if not worse. Look at hockey for example. Fact is our U20s are fantastic and that is due to the system in place. Maybe it is a bit serious at schools level but most people will never get a chance to play on TV in donnybrook other than in schools rugby. Should we really take that opportunity away?

ormond lad wrote: »

Highlighted piece is rubbish. no they couldnt
the 09 team wasnt EOSs team, EOS had taken them as far as he could and couldnt get them over the top to win a championship/grand slam. kidney has now more than likely taken ireland as far as he can and should go
He doesnt know how to use a squad. he keeps picking the same players over and over which imo is something he has kept from being a schools cup coach
we are well above georgia/romania. comparing ourselves to them is hyperbole

In fairness three might be a bit a a stretch but two is very reasonable.
The EOS/DK viewpoint there is very simplistic, there is far more going on than that.

ormond lad

ajeffares wrote: »

Meh, most sports are the same if not worse. Look at hockey for example. Fact is our U20s are fantastic and that is due to the system in place. Maybe it is a bit serious at schools level but most people will never get a chance to play on TV in donnybrook other than in schools rugby. Should we really take that opportunity away?



In fairness three might be a bit a a stretch but two is very reasonable.
The EOS/DK viewpoint there is very simplistic, there is far more going on than that.

But the system could improve. For all the great work being done by the provincial branches and the IRFU rugby still is quite elitist.
Adapt the competitions. Some games can still be shown on tv etc but straight knock out schools cup has to be got rid of.

seanand

i agree with corny kidney tactic are poor at best and is too loyal. im sick of it were too good a team to accept this he has to go, i dont know how he won the grand slam tbh and has made mistake upon mistake since

ormond lad

seanand wrote: »

i agree with corny kidney tactic are poor at best and is too loyal. im sick of it were too good a team to accept this he has to go, i dont know how he won the grand slam tbh and has made mistake upon mistake since

Grand slam was won under different laws and with a huge dollop of luck.
Since going unbeaten in 09 we have been incredibly inconsistent with only a few standout appearances in the past few years like new zealand in the first test, australia in the world cup, england in 2011 6 nations

Gelio

ormond lad wrote: »

But the system could improve. For all the great work being done by the provincial branches and the IRFU rugby still is quite elitist.
Adapt the competitions. Some games can still be shown on tv etc but straight knock out schools cup has to be got rid of.

Of course there are small improvements that could be made but for the most part it is very good. Elitist? I don't think so. It used to be but as it stands at the moment a player that is just short of being good enough for the Leinster schools team is good enough to play for the clubs. That means players have a better chance of getting noticed at clubs level since both sides are given equal attention. Elitism used to be an issue but it's been addressed fairly well tbf.
Maybe a group then knockout system but there has to be a final.

ormond lad

ajeffares wrote: »

Of course there are small improvements that could be made but for the most part it is very good. Elitist? I don't think so. It used to be but as it stands at the moment a player that is just short of being good enough for the Leinster schools team is good enough to play for the clubs. That means players have a better chance of getting noticed at clubs level since both sides are given equal attention. Elitism used to be an issue but it's been addressed fairly well tbf.
Maybe a group then knockout system but there has to be a final.

Thats not true. youths and schools provincial sides are fairly even. players have much better chance of being noticed at schools level.

Gelio

It is. I know a few lads that are on the Clubs team that wouldn't have a hope of making the Schools team.
It's much easier to get noticed if you are one of the better players on a weak team than if you are an average player on a strong team.

ormond lad

ajeffares wrote: »

It is. I know a few lads that are on the Clubs team that wouldn't have a hope of making the Schools team.
It's much easier to get noticed if you are one of the better players on a weak team than if you are an average player on a strong team.

Its not. wrt kids on clubs side not having a hope of making schools team Ive been to most interpros underage the past few years and that is not the case. schools will dominate the u19/20 sides but nowhere near what they did and the gap is always getting smaller

Gelio

ormond lad wrote: »

Its not. wrt kids on clubs side not having a hope of making schools team Ive been to most interpros underage the past few years and that is not the case. schools will dominate the u19/20 sides but nowhere near what they did and the gap is always getting smaller

The gap is getting smaller which is great but there still is a gap. I actually know people who were on the Clubs side though and seen them play that would be seconds players in some of the big schools.

ormond lad

ajeffares wrote: »

The gap is getting smaller which is great but there still is a gap. I actually know people who were on the Clubs side though and seen them play that would be seconds players in some of the big schools.

There is a gap but not between the top players.
any kid who makes a provincial youths(u18) squad would make way more senior cup teams than they wouldnt.
I know plenty who have been on provincial youths squads, several team mates of mine as well as my brother and most would, given 4-5 months of the training schools do, be on senior cup teams

Gelio

ormond lad wrote: »

There is a gap but not between the top players.
any kid who makes a provincial youths(u18) squad would make way more senior cup teams than they wouldnt.
I know plenty who have been on provincial youths squads, several team mates of mine as well as my brother and most would, given 4-5 months of the training schools do, be on senior cup teams

Yes agreed the best are equally good. Often the clubs players are more creative rugby players too. The schools side does seem to have more depth though. How did we go from the NZ game to this?

ormond lad

ajeffares wrote: »

Yes agreed the best are equally good. Often the clubs players are more creative rugby players too. The schools side does seem to have more depth though. How did we go from the NZ game to this?

schools do have more depth. biggest schools like blackrock have 5/6 u13 and u14 sides which is about half the size of east munster(region representing youths rugby in tipp and waterford) so added to tradition of the sport in the school the schools should produce more.

Went from NZ game to this because eof mentioned we have to look at the whole set up from top to bottom and me and you took it from there...

Gelio

ormond lad wrote: »

schools do have more depth. biggest schools like blackrock have 5/6 u13 and u14 sides which is about half the size of east munster(region representing youths rugby in tipp and waterford) so added to tradition of the sport in the school the schools should produce more.

Went from NZ game to this because eof mentioned we have to look at the whole set up from top to bottom and me and you took it from there...

Yeah so overall I'd say we are doing quite well at spotting the decent youths. I think in the end of the day the solution to all of lifes problems is to start Devin Toner. That will fix everything.

ormond lad

ajeffares wrote: »

Yeah so overall I'd say we are doing quite well at spotting the decent youths. I think in the end of the day the solution to all of lifes problems is to start Devin Toner. That will fix everything.

We are doing ok at screening and developing the best youths players but their could be so much more done.
get the journalists like thornley, ward, cummiskey etc to go to the youths cup/league provincial semis/finals to increase publicity etc
the clubs are more likely to keep people in the sport as they provide outlets to play etc after the age of 18 other than supporting your school for 2-3 games in feb/march every year

Gelio

There should be more attention around the clubs competition's alright. You rarely hear about which underage clubs are doing well.
As for the clubs keeping them into rugby, of course they will! When a schools player finishes school he has to find a club and fit in with a whole new group of players while a Clubs player changes nothing except age group. Sticking with all his friends.

ormond lad

ajeffares wrote: »

There should be more attention around the clubs competition's alright. You rarely hear about which underage clubs are doing well.
As for the clubs keeping them into rugby, of course they will! When a schools player finishes school he has to find a club and fit in with a whole new group of players while a Clubs player changes nothing except age group. Sticking with all his friends.

There should be more attention but its difficult when some of the journalists, tony ward for example, have vested interest in schools rugby as they coach etc and are paid by rugby schools to coach.
none of the kids in schools will have played rugby with a club and imo many stop after school or within a year or two as their is such a difference between when they were senior cup and getting all the star treatment like big media attention, warm weather training, being treated like kings, to going into a senior club and maybe playing 2nds/3rds and getting none of that

Gelio

ormond lad wrote: »

There should be more attention but its difficult when some of the journalists, tony ward for example, have vested interest in schools rugby as they coach etc and are paid by rugby schools to coach.
none of the kids in schools will have played rugby with a club and imo many stop after school or within a year or two as their is such a difference between when they were senior cup and getting all the star treatment like big media attention, warm weather training, being treated like kings, to going into a senior club and maybe playing 2nds/3rds and getting none of that

Many schools players played club before school. I don't agree with that to be honest. Star treatment? Rugby players are treated no differently in 99% of schools. You do hear stories but how much of that is true? As for warm weather training very few schools do that and many clubs go on trips abroad too. I really don't think schools players feel that they deserve better treatment than anyone else.

ormond lad

ajeffares wrote: »

Many schools players played club before school. I don't agree with that to be honest. Star treatment? Rugby players are treated no differently in 99% of schools. You do hear stories but how much of that is true? As for warm weather training very few schools do that and many clubs go on trips abroad too. I really don't think schools players feel that they deserve better treatment than anyone else.

Most kids in rugby schools will have played mini's rugby in clubs when primary school age. for example cathal marsh, in irish 20s squad this year, played minis rugby in bective rangers rfc before going to secondary school in st michaels.
star treatment does happen.
many clubs do go abroad but not for something like warm weather training trips which are specifically for training and prep for competition. clubs do go abroad but gen go around easter and are as much about the craic then training ahead of a cup competition.
oh of course kids in schools dont feel they deserve better treatment but its obv that they do get it

corny

ormond lad wrote: »

Highlighted piece is rubbish. no they couldnt
the 09 team wasnt EOSs team, EOS had taken them as far as he could and couldnt get them over the top to win a championship/grand slam. kidney has now more than likely taken ireland as far as he can and should go
He doesnt know how to use a squad. he keeps picking the same players over and over which imo is something he has kept from being a schools cup coach
we are well above georgia/romania. comparing ourselves to them is hyperbole

Your welcome to disagree. Highlighted piece wasn't rubbish. Leinster could quite conceivably put out a third string side and still give Connacht a game.

I didn't compare Georgia or Romania as teams either. I said our attacking structures (i'll bold that so you read it this time) are on a par and i stand by it. The fact we haven't had a dedicated attacking coach for more than a year now shows in our play. We go aimlessly side to side relying on individual flair to break the line. Long are gone the days when our set piece attacking play was something to be feared.

The highlighted bit? I just wanted to point out that Kidney got that bit of luck that EOS never got as a coach. The bounce of the ball restart leading to Clercs try 07 V Steven Jones stepping aside and Henson nailing the penalty in 09. On such things history is written but i just wanted to point EOS actually brought us forward as a team. We've done nothing but regress with DK in charge.

ormond lad

corny wrote: »

Your welcome to disagree. Highlighted piece wasn't rubbish. Leinster could quite conceivably put out a third string side and still give Connacht a game.
no they wouldnt. 2nd string would but 3rd no.
I didn't compare Georgia or Romania as teams either. I said our attacking structures (i'll bold that so you read it this time) are on a par and i stand by it. The fact we haven't had a dedicated attacking coach for more than a year now shows in our play. that is true. kidney should be shot for making our defence coach double job and be involved in coaching our attack. our attack structures are much better than Georgias/Romanias dispite our defence coach double jobbing as attack coach.
We go aimlessly side to side relying on individual flair to break the line. Long are gone the days when our set piece attacking play was something to be feared.

The highlighted bit? I just wanted to point out that Kidney got that bit of luck that EOS never got as a coach. The bounce of the ball restart leading to Clercs try 07 V Steven Jones stepping aside and Henson nailing the penalty in 09. On such things history is written but i just wanted to point EOS actually brought us forward as a team. We've done nothing but regress with DK in charge.

Kidney got us over the line and will be remembered for that in the history books and did that with a huge dollop of luck. we should have went up another level after 09 similar to how leinster have improved and developed further since their first h cup win

rugby_fan

There is no doubt that the gap between the schools and youths is closing, matches between the two teams in the last number of years has shown this, however there is still quiet a gap, for example if u take the leinster u19s A team that will compete in the inter pro in Sept when both clubs and schools combine there is unlikely to be very many club players starting

ormond lad

rugby_fan wrote: »

There is no doubt that the gap between the schools and youths is closing, matches between the two teams in the last number of years has shown this, however there is still quiet a gap, for example if u take the leinster u19s A team that will compete in the inter pro in Sept when both clubs and schools combine there is unlikely to be very many club players starting

going by previous years the u19 squad the schools will have 3/4 of the players with the youths players about a 1/4. this is an improvement on several years ago where you would only find 2 maybe 3 players from the youths system in the squads at the first age group schools and youths are going for the same squads.
btw rugby_fan do you know when the leinster squads for the interpros will be announced? post in the youths thread in the rugby forum if you do

washman3

corny wrote: »

The highlighted bit? I just wanted to point out that Kidney got that bit of luck that EOS never got as a coach. The bounce of the ball restart leading to Clercs try 07 V Steven Jones stepping aside and Henson nailing the penalty in 09. On such things history is written but i just wanted to point EOS actually brought us forward as a team. We've done nothing but regress with DK in charge.

Strange that when anytime i suggested the above paragraph on the Rugby forum over the last few years i've been attacked from all sides and even threatened with a ban by the mods.
Many people forget that we would never have won a GS if Wales had a kicker to convert a 40m penalty dead straight in front of goal with the millenium roof closed.!! Or the 2 lucky bounces we got in the same game leading to 2 tries. C'est la vie.
But maybe the biggest mistake made after we did win the GS was failing to put some players "out to grass" and adhering to some mind-boggling loyalty. Can we really blame Kidney for this.??

corny

washman3 wrote: »

But maybe the biggest mistake made after we did win the GS was failing to put some players "out to grass" and adhering to some mind-boggling loyalty. Can we really blame Kidney for this.??

Agreed, but I'd say the biggest problem was that the rest of the world moved forward from the ELV's and stopped playing redundant rugby while the Irish continued on rudderless.

Wouldn't surprise if there were internal pressures with squad selection but ultimately Kidneys the man with his head on the chopping block. Should have been chopped by now.;)