Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

hardybuck

ManFromCheese wrote: »

surely a Junior club's first team should be good enough to compete with say a DLS or BG 3rd team? if they cant, they have no business winning county cships and playing intermediate hurling in my opinion. They should all be in together and have a junior A and Junior B type system going

Agreed, and I think they're pressing ahead with that in the East.

An example of how silly it was is the Junior Football Senior Attached. Only 3 senior football clubs in the East, so only 3 junior senior attached clubs in the competition. Basically if you weren't on the senior team you may as well just give up the game as you'd maybe 2 or 3 games per season.

hardybuck

tonc76 wrote: »

Possibly the case but some junior clubs have a small area to pick from while the likes of DLS and BG have huge catchment areas which afford them the luxury of fielding 3 teams. Its also very hard for junior clubs to recruit as no-one with ambition wants to play junior hurling. This would be even harder to do if there is very little possibility of progressing to intermediate.

Sure isn't this half of what is wrong with the structures, when you've got teams playing at intermediate and senior who just aren't at that level? It just dilutes the standard right across the board.

ManFromCheese

tonc76 wrote: »

Possibly the case but some junior clubs have a small area to pick from while the likes of DLS and BG have huge catchment areas which afford them the luxury of fielding 3 teams. Its also very hard for junior clubs to recruit as no-one with ambition wants to play junior hurling. This would be even harder to do if there is very little possibility of progressing to intermediate.

a week junior team has no business winning a weak junior cship and progressing to intermediate hurling, this has been happening and the intermediate cship is weakened as a result, you see how the winners of the intermediate cship struggle when they go up senior, this system benefits no one and its to the detriment of club hurling in the long run.
the answer is to have 2 tiers junior and 2 tiers intermediate, this way each club plays competitive hurling at the level they are able for, if its a weak rural junior club then the junior b would be their standard and there would be a realistic chance of them winning a cship

ManFromCheese

hardybuck wrote: »

Agreed, and I think they're pressing ahead with that in the East.

An example of how silly it was is the Junior Football Senior Attached. Only 3 senior football clubs in the East, so only 3 junior senior attached clubs in the competition. Basically if you weren't on the senior team you may as well just give up the game as you'd maybe 2 or 3 games per season.

how would they manage a county final if the eastern cship and western cship were not run in conjunction with eachother?

hardybuck

ManFromCheese wrote: »

how would they manage a county final if the eastern cship and western cship were not run in conjunction with eachother?

A question I was asking myself above. Maybe someone can clear this up.

deisebhoy17

tonc76 wrote: »

Don't think this is fair to junior only clubs though as what chance would they have of winning a Co final and going up to intermediate?

well thats exactly the reason it was changed to the current structure in the first place. As far as I know it was Old Parish who brought the motion forward first day as they were beaten in a Western junior final by Ballinacourty's second string side and felt it was 'unfair' that they missed out on their first western title to a second string team. As far as Im aware they haven't even got to the Western Final since the second string sides were banned from competing in the junior championship so it goes to show if your not good enough your not good enough. And people wonder why the intermediate championships are so poor in this county.

deisebhoy17

tonc76 wrote: »

Possibly the case but some junior clubs have a small area to pick from while the likes of DLS and BG have huge catchment areas which afford them the luxury of fielding 3 teams. Its also very hard for junior clubs to recruit as no-one with ambition wants to play junior hurling. This would be even harder to do if there is very little possibility of progressing to intermediate.

Completely disagree with this.

hy should a junior player from an 'attached' club be treated any different to a player from a juinior side proper? They are all of the same standard allegedly so should be entitled to compete for the same trophy. The current system is totally unbalanced and I dont know of any other county where this happens. Just because its 'unfair' that it gives junior clubs less chance of winning something you take away the junior 'attached players' chance of winning anything worth talking about at all.

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Completely disagree with this.

hy should a junior player from an 'attached' club be treated any different to a player from a juinior side proper? They are all of the same standard allegedly so should be entitled to compete for the same trophy. The current system is totally unbalanced and I dont know of any other county where this happens. Just because its 'unfair' that it gives junior clubs less chance of winning something you take away the junior 'attached players' chance of winning anything worth talking about at all.

While I'd agree that the competition should be scrapped in favour of a Junior A and B format, I wouldn't call it irrelevant.

As winners of the Junior (Senior Attached) County championship, Fourmilewater were promoted to intermediate, as Butlerstown from the East won the Junior proper, and Modeligo were relegated from the West Intermediate.

So basically, when the Western champions in the Senior Attached win the County and the West champions in the Junior proper don't, they have the opportunity to play in the Intermediate championship. So at the moment it can be important, but I do think it would make more sense to just have the Senior and Intermediate attached teams put into outright Junior A and B, like most of ye are suggesting.

And from what I've seen, I don't think the Junior clubs would need to worry too much about the competition from most of the second strings at the moment anyway. Also, considering there are 6 hurling teams in the City as it is, I really don't think Mount Sion, De La Salle and Ballygunner's third teams should have any advantage over the Junior teams that have prospects of winning the Eastern Championship.

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

While I'd agree that the competition should be scrapped in favour of a Junior A and B format, I wouldn't call it irrelevant.

As winners of the Junior (Senior Attached) County championship, Fourmilewater were promoted to intermediate, as Butlerstown from the East won the Junior proper, and Modeligo were relegated from the West Intermediate.

So basically, when the Western champions in the Senior Attached win the County and the West champions in the Junior proper don't, they have the opportunity to play in the Intermediate championship. So at the moment it can be important, but I do think it would make more sense to just have the Senior and Intermediate attached teams put into outright Junior A and B, like most of ye are suggesting.

And from what I've seen, I don't think the Junior clubs would need to worry too much about the competition from most of the second strings at the moment anyway. Also, considering there are 6 hurling teams in the City as it is, I really don't think Mount Sion, De La Salle and Ballygunner's third teams should have any advantage over the Junior teams that have prospects of winning the Eastern Championship.

DLS lost in the intermediate semi final in either 2010 or 2011, I think by a point, to the team that won the competition. Jake Dillon had been playing with the 2nds up to this point, and was scoring for fun.

Before the semi he was promoted to the senior squad for the senior quarter final, where he continued scoring. If DLS did not do this, there is a strong chance they would have won the county intermediate title that year.

Weren't The Nire in the Western Intermediate Football final this year also? If their 2nd teams are doing it at intermediate level they could do it at junior.

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

DLS lost in the intermediate semi final in either 2010 or 2011, I think by a point, to the team that won the competition. Jake Dillon had been playing with the 2nds up to this point, and was scoring for fun.

Before the semi he was promoted to the senior squad for the senior quarter final, where he continued scoring. If DLS did not do this, there is a strong chance they would have won the county intermediate title that year.

Weren't The Nire in the Western Intermediate Football final this year also? If their 2nd teams are doing it at intermediate level they could do it at junior.

Yeah, but those are second strings. Third strings I would not be worried about, and ultimately if you're the best Junior team in the County you should be able to beat any other Junior team.

The Nire weren't in the Intermediate football final this year, unless you mean this year being the same as that year DLS were challenging for the Intermediate Hurling. 2009 I think it was, Ballinameela won the County, and made the County semi the following year, only to be relegated the year after, and then promoted again in 2012.

If your second string intermediate team is that strong that they are capable of winning out the competition, what can you do? You couldn't have them in a separate competition with second string teams as they would annihilate them all, and by having them in the proper competition (Intermediate or Junior) you are setting the benchmark for other Junior teams which in reality needs to be done because the standard isn't high enough at the minute.

Second/third strings don't necessarily have an advantage over Junior only clubs. The priority in any club is their first team. Some clubs take the second team seriously and treat the players well and they train often and well, but generally the attitude of second string players wouldn't be as good as the others. They might take a few liberties regarding training or drinking that the first team players wouldn't, and other teams the second string side might be a shambles.

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

Yeah, but those are second strings. Third strings I would not be worried about, and ultimately if you're the best Junior team in the County you should be able to beat any other Junior team.

The Nire weren't in the Intermediate football final this year, unless you mean this year being the same as that year DLS were challenging for the Intermediate Hurling. 2009 I think it was, Ballinameela won the County, and made the County semi the following year, only to be relegated the year after, and then promoted again in 2012.

If your second string intermediate team is that strong that they are capable of winning out the competition, what can you do? You couldn't have them in a separate competition with second string teams as they would annihilate them all, and by having them in the proper competition (Intermediate or Junior) you are setting the benchmark for other Junior teams which in reality needs to be done because the standard isn't high enough at the minute.

Second/third strings don't necessarily have an advantage over Junior only clubs. The priority in any club is their first team. Some clubs take the second team seriously and treat the players well and they train often and well, but generally the attitude of second string players wouldn't be as good as the others. They might take a few liberties regarding training or drinking that the first team players wouldn't, and other teams the second string side might be a shambles.

You solve this through the reorganisation of a different type, one which we've discussed numerous times.

• Senior championship drops to 8 teams. Intermediate Premier of 8.
• This years relegation semi finalists go to intermediate premier - all county
• This years east and west intermediate finalists go to intermediate premier - all county
• Teams at the bottom of the divisional intermediate drop to Junior A - which I think should stay east and west for the time being. I don't think junior players currently have the appetite to travel to games, often which are midweek currently

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

While I'd agree that the competition should be scrapped in favour of a Junior A and B format, I wouldn't call it irrelevant.

As winners of the Junior (Senior Attached) County championship, Fourmilewater were promoted to intermediate, as Butlerstown from the East won the Junior proper, and Modeligo were relegated from the West Intermediate.

So basically, when the Western champions in the Senior Attached win the County and the West champions in the Junior proper don't, they have the opportunity to play in the Intermediate championship. So at the moment it can be important, but I do think it would make more sense to just have the Senior and Intermediate attached teams put into outright Junior A and B, like most of ye are suggesting.

And from what I've seen, I don't think the Junior clubs would need to worry too much about the competition from most of the second strings at the moment anyway. Also, considering there are 6 hurling teams in the City as it is, I really don't think Mount Sion, De La Salle and Ballygunner's third teams should have any advantage over the Junior teams that have prospects of winning the Eastern Championship.

OK I didnt realise that it was possible to get promoted to intermediate out of winning it, albeit depending on other circumstances. But in a way it makes it all the more farsical....

FMW are an average enough junior side in relation to the Junior ch'ship proper teams, and probably wouldnt have won the junior co. championship proper, yet they are now competing at a level way higher than where they should be. what purpose is that going to serve anyone. the only team that should be going up intermediate are the team that has proven to be the best junior side in the county. As a result neither FMW or Butlerstown can effectively claim that accolade. Joke.

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

You solve this through the reorganisation of a different type, one which we've discussed numerous times.

• Senior championship drops to 8 teams. Intermediate Premier of 8.
• This years relegation semi finalists go to intermediate premier - all county
• This years east and west intermediate finalists go to intermediate premier - all county
• Teams at the bottom of the divisional intermediate drop to Junior A - which I think should stay east and west for the time being. I don't think junior players currently have the appetite to travel to games, often which are midweek currently

I wasn't arguing that the championship format at the moment makes sense or is the best way of doing things, though I do think a Senior championship comprising 8 teams is not progressive.

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

OK I didnt realise that it was possible to get promoted to intermediate out of winning it, albeit depending on other circumstances. But in a way it makes it all the more farsical....

FMW are an average enough junior side in relation to the Junior ch'ship proper teams, and probably wouldnt have won the junior co. championship proper, yet they are now competing at a level way higher than where they should be. what purpose is that going to serve anyone. the only team that should be going up intermediate are the team that has proven to be the best junior side in the county. As a result neither FMW or Butlerstown can effectively claim that accolade. Joke.

Can I ask what that's based on? Who did Fourmilewater beat in the County and West finals, and what was their average winning margin over teams last year? I'm assuming you know that given the statement you just made.

It might be better to wait and see how they fare in the Intermediate Championship first before saying that.

Because the intermediate is divided at the moment it's important that there is promotion and relegation between the east and west championships to be fair to teams that win the Junior championships. I think in a situation where Geraldines would have won the Junior proper they probably would have been promoted instead of Fourmilewater. It's the best team in the east and the best team in the west that go up, so this year it was decided that the best Junior teams from each side last year were Fourmilewater and Butlerstown, and to be honest I'd doubt that there'd be that many that would dispute that.

I do agree that the Junior Proper should have the Attached teams in it as well instead of having separate competitions, just so we're clear.

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

I wasn't arguing that the championship format at the moment makes sense or is the best way of doing things, though I do think a Senior championship comprising 8 teams is not progressive.

I would argue that at there are about 4 teams who are way out of their depth. Without wanting to harp on about DLS they won at least one game by about 30 points this year, and a couple more in the 25 point region. That does nobody any good.

The senior, intermediate and junior championships all require a restructure.

ManFromCheese

dunhill had no business hurling senior last year, before they went up everyone knew they'd come back down again, last years intermediate finalists, ring and portlaw, the pick of the two teams wouldnt last a year up senior, wait and see ring will come straight back down and the fact that football is number 1 in ring wont do them any favours either.

Mountainlad

And so what happens when a team gets relegated from the 8 teams Senior championship and the Intermediate winners are coming into an even more competitive championship?

Dunhill had no business Senior hurling last year, yet they still beat Mount Sion and were very close to beating Roanmore, which would have seen them safe and probably into a quarter final. I'd admit they weren't great but they won the right to play Senior and wouldn't agree with comment like them having 'no business' in the Senior championship.

The Intermediate championship isn't as good as it probably should be, but teams like Passage and Dungarvan have come up from Intermediate in recent years and they are aquitting themselves well (even if Dungarvan's turn around is a recent thing).

Jarjohn

AFAIK any second string side can try and affiliate to the Intermediate Championship and its up to the Board to decide. I know Lismore got relegated from intermediate and are now Snr attached and FMW went intermediate. FMW are a good side and I think they will hold their own. I think having an Intermediate A and B could be the way forward, with all proper junior teams in the Intermediate B along with the weaker intermediate. There are currently 16 teams between inter and junior which would be split 8 for A and 8 for B. The Junior A and B should be for the remaining 2nd strings with a two up 2 down approach from Intermediate right down to Junior B to freshen things up every year

Jarjohn

Western Football Draws

Intermediate: Ballinacourty, Clashmore, Nire, Geraldines, Sliabh gCua, Dungarvan, Ballyduff
One group semis - 1v4 2v3
1st round 13th/14th April

Junior Premier: Old Parish, Modeligo, Kilgobnet, Affane, Colligan, Tallow, Shamrocks
Top 2 in Semis. 3rd 4th and 5th to Qtrs with 6th v 7th for other qtr
1st round 13th/14th April


Junior snr attached: Brickeys, Ring, Killrosanty, Stradbally, Ballinameela
Home and away league basis with 1st to final and 2nd v 3rd in semi
1st round 5th/6th April


Junior Int Attached: Dungarvan, Melleray, Geraldines
Home and away league basis with 1st and 2nd to Final
1st round 13th/14th April


U 21 A: Semis - Comeragh Gaels/Clashmore v Dungarvan/Ballinacourty
Brickeys v St Olivers/ An Gaeltacht
Starting Sat 16th Feb

U 21 B: Semis - Nire/Stradbally v Affane
Killrosanty/Tallow v Ardmore/Ballyduff
Starting Sat 16th Feb

Intermediate even enough where 2nd string sides will have a major say in it

abbeysideFB4L

hardybuck wrote: »

DLS lost in the intermediate semi final in either 2010 or 2011, I think by a point, to the team that won the competition. Jake Dillon had been playing with the 2nds up to this point, and was scoring for fun.

Before the semi he was promoted to the senior squad for the senior quarter final, where he continued scoring. If DLS did not do this, there is a strong chance they would have won the county intermediate title that year.

Weren't The Nire in the Western Intermediate Football final this year also? If their 2nd teams are doing it at intermediate level they could do it at junior.

That was ballinacourty! only by the final a lot of the starting team had moved up to the senior squad and left ballinameela with an easy victory

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

Can I ask what that's based on? Who did Fourmilewater beat in the County and West finals, and what was their average winning margin over teams last year? I'm assuming you know that given the statement you just made.

It might be better to wait and see how they fare in the Intermediate Championship first before saying that.

The junior championship proper will always be of a higher standard than a junior attached championship on average as there will be more standout players. The standout players from an attached club will be playing senior so their junior team will consist of mediocre players, whereas a junior team proper will generally have a couple of very good players aswell as mediocre players. Its not a vendetta against FMW, its just it makes no sense in my eyes the winner of the Attached section being considered good enough to go up intermediate having competed in a completely different championship to the junior proper teams.

For what its worth I dont think that FMW team would win the west Junior proper championship, they might be one of the stronger sides in it but definetly wouldnt be good enough to win it out. I dont know what their average score was last year off hand I dont normally follow second string sides that closely! I know they had some good wins but I think they will be well out of their depth at intermediate, playing against first string sides is a different kettle of fish altogether

deisebhoy17

Jarjohn wrote: »

Western Football Draws

Intermediate: Ballinacourty, Clashmore, Nire, Geraldines, Sliabh gCua, Dungarvan, Ballyduff
One group semis - 1v4 2v3
1st round 13th/14th April

Junior Premier: Old Parish, Modeligo, Kilgobnet, Affane, Colligan, Tallow, Shamrocks
Top 2 in Semis. 3rd 4th and 5th to Qtrs with 6th v 7th for other qtr
1st round 13th/14th April


Junior snr attached: Brickeys, Ring, Killrosanty, Stradbally, Ballinameela
Home and away league basis with 1st to final and 2nd v 3rd in semi
1st round 5th/6th April


Junior Int Attached: Dungarvan, Melleray, Geraldines
Home and away league basis with 1st and 2nd to Final
1st round 13th/14th April


U 21 A: Semis - Comeragh Gaels/Clashmore v Dungarvan/Ballinacourty
Brickeys v St Olivers/ An Gaeltacht
Starting Sat 16th Feb

U 21 B: Semis - Nire/Stradbally v Affane
Killrosanty/Tallow v Ardmore/Ballyduff
Starting Sat 16th Feb

Intermediate even enough where 2nd string sides will have a major say in it

this is even more farsical. like a circus!!! .... that 'junior intermediate attached' championship looks like a real group of death there... gotta get me to some of those games.... lololo:pac:

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

The junior championship proper will always be of a higher standard than a junior attached championship on average as there will be more standout players. The standout players from an attached club will be playing senior so their junior team will consist of mediocre players, whereas a junior team proper will generally have a couple of very good players aswell as mediocre players. Its not a vendetta against FMW, its just it makes no sense in my eyes the winner of the Attached section being considered good enough to go up intermediate having competed in a completely different championship to the junior proper teams.

For what its worth I dont think that FMW team would win the west Junior proper championship, they might be one of the stronger sides in it but definetly wouldnt be good enough to win it out. I dont know what their average score was last year off hand I dont normally follow second string sides that closely! I know they had some good wins but I think they will be well out of their depth at intermediate, playing against first string sides is a different kettle of fish altogether

I'm not saying you've a vendetta against the club or anything. My argument would be the same if it was anyone else. I'm taking it that you've never actually seen them play? That being the case, you can't really make a judgement on whether they would be good enough to win a Wets Junior or whatever. And also I agree in general the second string sides are weaker and probably a decent bit weaker than Junior Proper teams. That being said, there's often an exception.

Each individual case should be examined on it's merits, not with widespread generalizations about how should 'logically' be good enough to compete at a higher level.

ManFromCheese

Mountainlad wrote: »

Dunhill had no business Senior hurling last year, yet they still beat Mount Sion and were very close to beating Roanmore, which would have seen them safe and probably into a quarter final. I'd admit they weren't great but they won the right to play Senior and wouldn't agree with comment like them having 'no business' in the Senior championship.

The Intermediate championship isn't as good as it probably should be, but teams like Passage and Dungarvan have come up from Intermediate in recent years and they are aquitting themselves well (even if Dungarvan's turn around is a recent thing).

roanmore are septic and are struggling to survive senior since they came up and mt sion were missing half their team when dunhill bet them, the feet were burnt off them, the cship doesnt start untill the knockout stages, teams pace themselves and win when they need to win, dunhill were always going to be relegated....

dungarvan are doing so well due to the fact that they had a young team who had a lot of underage success and will be a serious force if they can all stay together....

mark my words, ring will be relegated, at best they'll survive a relegation final against the likes of roanmore...

Mountainlad

ManFromCheese wrote: »

roanmore are septic and are struggling to survive senior since they came up and mt sion were missing half their team when dunhill bet them, the feet were burnt off them, the cship doesnt start untill the knockout stages, teams pace themselves and win when they need to win, dunhill were always going to be relegated....

dungarvan are doing so well due to the fact that they had a young team who had a lot of underage success and will be a serious force if they can all stay together....

mark my words, ring will be relegated, at best they'll survive a relegation final against the likes of roanmore...

By half their team, don't you mean three players?

Ok so, what would your solution be? I'm not saying that some of these teams aren't out of their depth but I'm not sure the solution is as clear cut as it's made out to be.

ManFromCheese

Mountainlad wrote: »

By half their team, don't you mean three players?

Ok so, what would your solution be? I'm not saying that some of these teams aren't out of their depth but I'm not sure the solution is as clear cut as it's made out to be.

if you read my earlier posts you'd see what my solution is!
2 tier junior and intermediate and reduce senior teams to 10...

standard has dropped in club hurling the last few years, a lot of that is due to the recession and emmigration plus waterford hurling in general is in transition, looking forward to some new teams coming to the fore, i like the look of dungarvan, hopefully for the sake of hurling they can fulfill their potential, we need more teams like them to challenge dls and bg

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

I'm not saying you've a vendetta against the club or anything. My argument would be the same if it was anyone else. I'm taking it that you've never actually seen them play? That being the case, you can't really make a judgement on whether they would be good enough to win a Wets Junior or whatever. And also I agree in general the second string sides are weaker and probably a decent bit weaker than Junior Proper teams. That being said, there's often an exception.

Each individual case should be examined on it's merits, not with widespread generalizations about how should 'logically' be good enough to compete at a higher level.

ok then we'll treat FMW as a rare exception....:rolleyes: but im speaking generally and you know what i mean

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

ok then we'll treat FMW as a rare exception....:rolleyes: but im speaking generally and you know what i mean

I agree with your main point.

I'm just saying it would be in your own interests not to judge teams/players you've not seen play, and that should apply to all teams that you have not seen play.

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

I agree with your main point.

I'm just saying it would be in your own interests not to judge teams/players you've not seen play, and that should apply to all teams that you have not seen play.

I dont think I seen them last year but Id be familiar with most of their players Ive seen and played against them enough times and Id be fairly well up on the junior scene as a whole so I dont think my assessment is that far wide of the mark. unless FMW Juniors have turned into Kilkenny overnight lol

shoddy14

I've seen the FMW junior team on first hand and to be honest they are well out of their depth, though saying that The Intermediate championship is weakened this year by the loss of Modeligo(on their day could match anyone) and Rinn. Add to this that Tourin and Cappoquins hands will be weakened due to emigration etc. it leads to a very open championship

Deise Tom

hardybuck wrote: »

Agreed, and I think they're pressing ahead with that in the East.

An example of how silly it was is the Junior Football Senior Attached. Only 3 senior football clubs in the East, so only 3 junior senior attached clubs in the competition. Basically if you weren't on the senior team you may as well just give up the game as you'd maybe 2 or 3 games per season.

It must sound like a broken record to most, but the answer is simple. The 3 clubs in the east would have more games if they were playing in the same competition as the western clubs in an all county competition starting from the top and working down.

I know doing this you will have some who will say that a player playing Junior with Gaultier living in maybe Dunmore East Village might not want to drive to Clashmore or the Nire for a game or vice versa, but there is an answer to this as well, play the games at neutral venues. In the west of the county in all championships at least 99% of the time games are played at neutral venues. If it works for the West at the moment it can work if the competition was all county. It would be in the interest of the clubs allowing games to be played at theie venue to do so, as they could get a percentage of the gate receipts (if that still happens, I'm not sure) and also they could have someone at the ground trying to sell a few extra lotto tickets etc to those that show up to see the game. What the clubs might get might be small, but i'm sure with most clubs every cent that comes into the club right now counts.