Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

Pete_Cavan

Del.Monte wrote: »

That's right and of course it would only be for the people of Youghal - no question of people from outside the town wishing to travel there. :rolleyes:

What people between Midleton and Youghal?

Markcheese

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What people between Midleton and Youghal?

Well mogeely ,and killeagh obviously ...
In 50 years time it might be a great idea to reopen it for public transport .. or maybe not ... If someone has a few hundred million spare for East cork public transport ... I'd recommend much better bus links to the city ... More stations on the current midleton line ,maybe a park and ride/ interchange at dunkettle ,
Or even the start of the tram/ brt line in cork that would take people who use the current trains to places other than lower glanmire road on the Eastern side of the city ..

Pete_Cavan

Markcheese wrote: »

Well mogeely ,and killeagh obviously ...

If they everyone showed up for the opening, both towns might fill a carriage each on the maiden journey, well worth the several hundred million euro investment!

MJohnston

Let me see - this railway hasn't been used for more than 30 years, and the greenway will protect it from additional encroachment, just in case it needs to be reused for rail sometime in the next few decades....is this really a serious discussion?

riddlinrussell

MJohnston wrote: »

Let me see - this railway hasn't been used for more than 30 years, and the greenway will protect it from additional encroachment, just in case it needs to be reused for rail sometime in the next few decades....is this really a serious discussion?

Apart from in a very small number of specific cases, I find the "Don't build a greenway, it will prevent a railway" argument to be extremely flawed. A few points.

• In most cases these routes have been abandoned for some time, greenways would prevent further encroachment
• If you can show me the last time an Irish government showed interest in a serious rail project I'll be amazed
• Even the currently running rail lines in Ireland are a combination of chronically underfunded and unfit for purpose
• I am very strongly pro-Greenway, and I like to think I am equally strongly pro-railway. I still don't think just relaying line on the old routes is the way to actually get rail done effectively.
• Hard as the fact may be many of these lines closed for good reason, massively unprofitable, simply didn't take people or goods where they really needed to go barring the endpoints
• If there comes a beautiful day when an Irish government gets serious about investing in rail in a big enough way to seriously look at reopening a Midleton to Youghal line, I would like to think they would be looking at it being a modern efficient route on a modern efficient alignment, and it would probably be as part of a grand "Southern Rail Corridor" From Cork through Waterford to Rosslare on a new alignment.

MJohnston

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Apart from in a very small number of specific cases, I find the "Don't build a greenway, it will prevent a railway" argument to be extremely flawed. A few points.

• In most cases these routes have been abandoned for some time, greenways would prevent further encroachment
• If you can show me the last time an Irish government showed interest in a serious rail project I'll be amazed
• Even the currently running rail lines in Ireland are a combination of chronically underfunded and unfit for purpose
• I am very strongly pro-Greenway, and I like to think I am equally strongly pro-railway. I still don't think just relaying line on the old routes is the way to actually get rail done effectively.
• Hard as the fact may be many of these lines closed for good reason, massively unprofitable, simply didn't take people or goods where they really needed to go barring the endpoints
• If there comes a beautiful day when an Irish government gets serious about investing in rail in a big enough way to seriously look at reopening a Midleton to Youghal line, I would like to think they would be looking at it being a modern efficient route on a modern efficient alignment, and it would probably be as part of a grand "Southern Rail Corridor" From Cork through Waterford to Rosslare on a new alignment.

Exactly!

Del.Monte

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What people between Midleton and Youghal?

I meant outside Youghal as in places like Cork, Dublin etc. sorry for not spelling it out for you.

namloc1980

Del.Monte wrote: »

I meant outside Youghal as in places like Cork, Dublin etc. sorry for not spelling it out for you.

Who would go to Youghal on the train from Dublin? Are you suggesting building a railway for the bucket and spade traffic? Because that died out about 60 years ago.

serfboard

Del.Monte wrote: »

I meant outside Youghal as in places like Cork, Dublin etc. sorry for not spelling it out for you.

There are already plenty of public transport options to get to Youghal from both Dublin and Cork.

Del.Monte

serfboard wrote: »

There are already plenty of public transport options to get to Youghal from both Dublin and Cork.

You could say that about more or less anywhere in Ireland.

Del.Monte

namloc1980 wrote: »

Who would go to Youghal on the train from Dublin? Are you suggesting building a railway for the bucket and spade traffic? Because that died out about 60 years ago.

Nobody obviously. :rolleyes:

serfboard

Del.Monte wrote: »

You could say that about more or less anywhere in Ireland.

Great. Less reasons for (re)building train lines where they're not needed then.

Markcheese

Del.Monte wrote: »

Nobody obviously. :rolleyes:

Soon you'll be able to get the train to midleton ,and then cycle to youghal ...

loyatemu

the Youghal line is mostly through flat countryside, if there ever was a case for reopening it, it would be trivial enough (in the overall cost of reopening) to move the greenway to run alongside the railway.

hans aus dtschl

loyatemu wrote: »

the Youghal line is mostly through flat countryside, if there ever was a case for reopening it, it would be trivial enough (in the overall cost of reopening) to move the greenway to run alongside the railway.

This is my feeling on it too.
The Council's published plan for cycling in the East Cork area is that it will run alongside the rail alignment.
It'll be more difficult to achieve that on the section from Cork through to Midleton and especially so when they're not really even trying (they're routing cycling away from the rail alignment as a low-cost solution at every opportunity).

So for those who say "I oppose this greenway because it prevents the alignment ever returning to rail" I'd reply "help by campaigning for the parallel routing on the western section, creating a precedent for the eastern section".

MJohnston

Baldoyle to Portmarnock coming along well:

https://twitter.com/AlanDub13/status/1215599521448722432

Grassey

A commitment to progressing the Sligo-Enniskillen Greenway is included in the text of the deal aimed at restoring devolved government to Northern Ireland.

https://www.oceanfm.ie/2020/01/10/boost-for-sligo-enniskillen-greenway/

Corca Baiscinn

Grassey wrote: »

https://www.oceanfm.ie/2020/01/10/boost-for-sligo-enniskillen-greenway/

What wil that do for the extension of the WRC to Derry?;)

Del.Monte

As an aside, I note that as part of the proposed re-establishment of the NI Power Sharing Executive the Dublin/Derry motorway is back on the table. Good old Ireland - more motorways - just what we need to help reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. Oh, I forgot the road will be used by EVs. :rolleyes:

spacetweek

Del.Monte wrote: »

As an aside, I note that as part of the proposed re-establishment of the NI Power Sharing Executive the Dublin/Derry motorway is back on the table. Good old Ireland - more motorways - just what we need to help reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. Oh, I forgot the road will be used by EVs. :rolleyes:

It will be.

Tigerandahalf

The commitment to the Sligo Enniskillen greenway has to be a positive sign for the Athenry Sligo one.

riddlinrussell

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

The commitment to the Sligo Enniskillen greenway has to be a positive sign for the Athenry Sligo one.

I wouldn't get too hopeful on that count, I don't see any scope for 'cross border co-operation' on the Sligo to Athenry line, although Sligo CoCo seem to be taking a good lead on the northern section at least.

Corca Baiscinn

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I wouldn't get too hopeful on that count, I don't see any scope for 'cross border co-operation' on the Sligo to Athenry line, although Sligo CoCo seem to be taking a good lead on the northern section at least.

I think it will help all the same. If both SLNC and WRC are completed the entire route would be a long distance cross border route. Ciaran Cannon cycled the full distance from Enniskillen to Tuam I think as a promo/awareness raiser for the route so they are seen as a unit.

It's true though that it wont be quick, people North , South, East and West are crying our for Greenway funding so I'd guess any Gov will only give Sligo and Leitrim Co Co's the money in dribs and drabs

no.8

Pete_Cavan wrote:

Why does it "need" to be reopened as a railway eventually? Youghal is not that big a town that it could justify spending a couple of hundred million on a rail line. Even if it reopened as a railway, the station would be the wrong side of the town for most of the population.

I am pro-greenway and pro-rail so I'm very interested in this discussion. Tbh, its good to see some balanced viewpoints here.
I can't help but disagree with your argument however. It's all based on the 'now' and not the future. Ireland has a painful record when it comes to infrastructure planning ahead of time. Youghal (and the region around) doesn't have a massive population....yet. we're about to pass the 5million pop. mark in the Republic soon and regional development is critical to ensuring that we have an even spread of population and employment.
In other words, no one here knows what the future holds in terms of mid-long term demand for public transport in the region
It depends on Corks development (incl. Public transport connections) and the towns between to bump up the economics.
All in all I would have been up for running a Greenway parallel to a single track trainline (with passing loops).

Greaney

no.8 wrote: »

I am pro-greenway and pro-rail so I'm very interested in this discussion. Tbh, its good to see some balanced viewpoints here.
I can't help but disagree with your argument however. It's all based on the 'now' and not the future. Ireland has a painful record when it comes to infrastructure planning ahead of time. Youghal (and the region around) doesn't have a massive population....yet. we're about to pass the 5million pop. mark in the Republic soon and regional development is critical to ensuring that we have an even spread of population and employment.
In other words, no one here knows what the future holds in terms of mid-long term demand for public transport in the region
It depends on Corks development (incl. Public transport connections) and the towns between to bump up the economics.
All in all I would have been up for running a Greenway parallel to a single track trainline (with passing loops).

I'm so with you there. There's a very negative discussion regarding the Western Rail Corridor, which after the 2012 rail report was marked out as a rail line worth developing in time, but a campaign arose to turn it into a greenway. Now I'm a cycle advocate but also believe in good public travel infrastructure, and the discussion on the Western rail Corridor thread goes from, 'it's only temporary' to,' that rail line will never be viable'. We seem to have no problem CPO'ing land for Motorways, so why not velos?? There's never been a case of a rail to trail returning to rail, that I'm aware of.

We have to plan for the future, and we have to stop being so Dublin centric in our planning

hans aus dtschl

That's fine lads, but let's get to details here:
Encroachment on the line already.
Line not protected now and overgrown with poor access to it.
No immediate call for investment: there's a list of more deserving rail jobs even in the Cork area.

So please tell us what exactly it is that you're proposing?
That they fund Youghal to the detriment to Blackpool/Kilbarry, to the detriment of Blarney/Monard, or to the detriment of a Kent passing loop?
Or that they don't fund Youghal but leave the line destitute as-is, unprotected with the trackbed degrading and attempt to CPO for an alternative East-West cycle corridor (has traditionally been a more difficult CPO)?

I say all this as someone who hopes to see this line reopen and has even said how I think it can happen (via SDZ's with P&R).

But every time I've seen or heard someone saying "this shouldn't be a greenway because it should be rail", they seem to studiously ignore all of the above details.

A bit of realism please: "a bird in the hand....."

hans aus dtschl

Greaney wrote: »

There's never been a case of a rail to trail returning to rail, that I'm aware of.

This is a disingenuous argument because there's scarce "rail returning to rail" examples in the country, let alone "greenway returning to rail".

Passage-Blackrock can be a barometer of whether this argument holds true: nobody I've seen has mentioned this project being blocked because of active travel needs, even though it's a very tight corridor. It's currently blocked because of lack of capital.

riddlinrussell

no.8 wrote: »

I am pro-greenway and pro-rail so I'm very interested in this discussion. Tbh, its good to see some balanced viewpoints here.
I can't help but disagree with your argument however. It's all based on the 'now' and not the future. Ireland has a painful record when it comes to infrastructure planning ahead of time. Youghal (and the region around) doesn't have a massive population....yet. we're about to pass the 5million pop. mark in the Republic soon and regional development is critical to ensuring that we have an even spread of population and employment.
In other words, no one here knows what the future holds in terms of mid-long term demand for public transport in the region
It depends on Corks development (incl. Public transport connections) and the towns between to bump up the economics.
All in all I would have been up for running a Greenway parallel to a single track trainline (with passing loops).

I think 'Planning for the future' is perfectly sensible, I also think that if Cork gets to the point where a rail line to Youghal would be viable again, the planning of Cork will have been carried out so poorly that the government is unlikely to do something as sensible as build a rail line to Youghal.

For Youghal to be a large commuter town to Cork that requires a railway line means that:

• No high rise/high density accommodation has been built in Cork
• Cork is approaching Dublin levels of sprawl
• Public transport in Cork has not improved in any way such that it isn't viable to drive from Youghal to Midleton to get the Train

In regard to the WRC, I don't know the exact story on the ground, I'd be as happy to see it become Railway as Greenway, if that route is still the most viable route, if not... well it would be far easier to justify a CPO for a modern railway line than for a greenway...

Pete_Cavan

The whole long term planning thing is nonsense. We do know (to an extent) what the future holds, for Cork it holds a number of new train stations within 20km of the city centre on the existing network, this is the sensible approach. Youghal is a small town 40km away from the city centre, the former station wouldn't serve the town centre or most of its population and there is no population (worth mentioning) between it and the existing rail network to help the case for expansion.

There is particularly nothing about Youghal that makes it suitable as a mass commuter town for Cork. Complaints about lack of future planning in this country aren't valid here, in other countries Youghal wouldn't be considered for commuter rail either, they'd focus on locations closer to the city where a town can develop around the train station meaning people have reasonable commutes and don't have to drive to the station.

Youghal would be better off taking the greenway and looking for it to eventually extend east to Dungarvan instead of waiting several generations in the hope that it might one day become a commuter town.

Markcheese

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Youghal would be better off taking the greenway and looking for it to eventually extend east to Dungarvan instead of waiting several generations in the hope that it might one day become a commuter town.

I think they're getting the Greenway ,like it or not ,line
Clearance has started ..
And I totally agree with the idea of a link to dungarvan .
ferry point ,Ardmore ,ring and round to dungarvan ... No convenient disused rail line to follow though ...