Denver Broncos Thread

vetinari

Honestly, your typical rookie QB (which Tebow essentially is, he played what 3 games last year) doesn't get judged this harshly. Since both Orton and Tebow have now played the Raiders, I went back to take a look at the stats for the first game. The Raiders did have Campbell for it. He was only though 13 of 22 for 105 yards and a TD. Hardly earth shattering numbers. They beat the Broncos on the ground. They had 180 rushing yards.

Orton had a decent game, 304 yards and 1 TD. Running game was poor though. Interestingly, Lloyd caught 6 catches for 89 yards. They still lost though.

This was exactly the kind of game the Broncos fans on this thread were saying that Tebow would win and Orton wouldn't. Tebow should definitely have bought himself some time with this win. If Denver get hammered by teams that are a good bit better than them and beat teams that are around their same level this season, that's not bad.

spiralism

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Tebow will run out of gimmicks soon. Screen passes, read option, roll outs - defenses are going to figure it all out.

Kansas City should be fun next (they looked hapless yesterday). Enjoy it. But then you got New York and San Diego, and a three week stretch in December against Chicago, New England and Buffalo. There is going to be a lot of ugly stuff ala Detroit before this season is done, and at the end people arguing for him as a viable Franchise QB will be thin on the ground.

Should we beat KC, i'd be willing to wager we split the SD/NYJ games, have a good feeling. I dunno will there be a lot of ugly stuff in the vein of detroit, that's the nastiest defence he'll face for the rest of the year. As for the pats, jasus, anything would work against that defence!

Of all the mentioned games, the only one i would say we definitely won't win is New England because we wont be able to keep Brady quiet enough.

as for the rest:

KC: Bit Jekyll and Hyde, winnable on the right day
NYJ: Tough but Winnable if we stick with the run, we rank 5th running the ball, they rank 23rd. Could well be one that ends up badly though, if we get behind early and need to dig deep in the playbook, Ryan's Defence will play ****.
SD: Winnable, we ran them close in the first game, they're not great against the run either and Rivers has no bottle at all.
MIN: Winnable on the right day, need to keep Mr Allen and Mr Peterson quiet.
CHI: Tough one but we are at home and there's the Cutler factor. Best D that Tebow will face from here on in.
NE: Nope. Though we'll probably have success on offence, we wont keep Brady quiet enough
BUF: Winnable, they're good but not unreal by any means, I think their momentum may well have died down a lot by the time we come to town
KC: As above

spiralism

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Sorry, but we coached terribly defence. The performance last night was a disgrace by us and it showed how badly we are coached. I still can't see past the chargers for the West.

If McFadden is healthy you guys will beat the Chargers twice, a better Chargers team could not handle a weaker Raiders outfit at all last year and Rivers is now a pick machine to boot. Essentially two home fixtures as well, the game in San Diego will be full of Oakland fans making the trip from LA.

San Diego have shat the bed in every big game they played so far, cant see them pulling this out

Chucky the tree

vetinari wrote: »

Honestly, your typical rookie QB (which Tebow essentially is, he played what 3 games last year) doesn't get judged this harshly. Since both Orton and Tebow have now played the Raiders, I went back to take a look at the stats for the first game. The Raiders did have Campbell for it. He was only though 13 of 22 for 105 yards and a TD. Hardly earth shattering numbers. They beat the Broncos on the ground. They had 180 rushing yards.

Orton had a decent game, 304 yards and 1 TD. Running game was poor though. Interestingly, Lloyd caught 6 catches for 89 yards. They still lost though.

This was exactly the kind of game the Broncos fans on this thread were saying that Tebow would win and Orton wouldn't. Tebow should definitely have bought himself some time with this win. If Denver get hammered by teams that are a good bit better than them and beat teams that are around their same level this season, that's not bad.

Tebow is not a rookie. He's had a year in the nfl which means he's had a year of NFL coaching, a year of studying and learning NFL offense so he should be miles ahead rookies in that sense.

spiralism wrote: »

If McFadden is healthy you guys will beat the Chargers twice, a better Chargers team could not handle a weaker Raiders outfit at all last year and Rivers is now a pick machine to boot. Essentially two home fixtures as well, the game in San Diego will be full of Oakland fans making the trip from LA.

San Diego have shat the bed in every big game they played so far, cant see them pulling this out

If McClain is out for chargers we are done. He's more important then McFadden for us. If we had him in yesterday we would have won comfortably enough.


Also, how exactly is this the kind of game Tebow would win and Orton wouldn't? I mean if McGee ran for 160 yards and two touchdowns in the first game Denver would have won, but he didn't so it's Ortons fault?

Syferus

Duuuuuuude, totally slow down the troll train!

Chucky the tree

Syferus wrote: »

Duuuuuuude, totally slow down the troll train!

Truth hurts obviously. Someone people can't deal with it and play the troll card, a bit pathetic really.

vetinari

Rookie starting year then?

Chucky you know exactly what I mean. No need to be pedantic. This is his first year as a starter. Big difference to spending most of last year as a backup. Most people don't expect much from a QB in their first year as a starter. The past few years have been exceptional in terms of the number of rookie QBs who have played well from the start.

You don't think the fact that Tebow is also a rushing threat didn't help McGee get more room? Honestly, it's a perfectly valid argument to say that Tebow won't make it as a NFL QB but no need to try and not give him any credit when he does well.

bruschi

raven136 wrote: »

I hope Tebow works out,seems a genuinely decent chap but hard to disagree with Glazer on him last week,basically a running back who can throw at the minute,not a QB who can throw.

One thing that irks about the tebowing thing after the sack last week,plenty of radio shows i heard made the point would they have made fun of a Jew or Muslim in that way?Just an interesting aside.

why? is putting your hand to your head whilst on one knee a particulairy significant religious act? or is it just something one player does? its not making fun of a religion, its making fun of a player.

I'd like to see Tebow doing well, but in the limited bits I saw on redzone last night, he just looks so panicky when pressure is on, and his throwing takes forever to get out and is wild. I pity the guy because of the hype heaped on him, but he just doesnt look like a quality player.

lloyd suggested his use in an option offence like scott, and thats how I would see him too, a new version of the wildcat or something. if he plays a full game every game for a season, his tricks and what not will be esily stopped. but limit his participation and give the defence something to think about, and he could be very useful.

The games the broncos won, I would have fully expected Orton to win as well. the schedule has helped Tebow in that sense, and he nearly even muffed it up against Miami.

Chucky the tree

vetinari wrote: »

Rookie starting year then?

Chucky you know exactly what I mean. No need to be pedantic. This is his first year as a starter. Big difference to spending most of last year as a backup. Most people don't expect much from a QB in their first year as a starter. The past few years have been exceptional in terms of the number of rookie QBs who have played well from the start.

You don't think the fact that Tebow is also a rushing threat didn't help McGee get more room? Honestly, it's a perfectly valid argument to say that Tebow won't make it as a NFL QB but no need to try and not give him any credit when he does well.

It's no being pendantic, a 2nd year QB who has no starts still has a big advantage over a true rookie QB yet you make it out as if both are starting from the same point. Rookie QB's get leeway because they haven't had much time to get used to new coaching, new playbook, and everything else that comes with being an NFL QB. Tebow has had the advantage of being in the NFL for a year.

No I don't, it was actually the other way around. McGee rushing threat is what gave Tebow more room and space. Tebow's last 4 minutes against Dolphins was good, that's probably the only time I've been even slightly impressed with Tebow as a QB. If you set a mythical bar of what you expect from a franchise NFL quarterback I don't think Tebow has come close to reaching that level yet and he didn't do it yesterday.

vetinari

vetinari wrote: »

Rookie starting year then?

Chucky you know exactly what I mean. No need to be pedantic. This is his first year as a starter. Big difference to spending most of last year as a backup. Most people don't expect much from a QB in their first year as a starter. The past few years have been exceptional in terms of the number of rookie QBs who have played well from the start.

You don't think the fact that Tebow is also a rushing threat didn't help McGee get more room? Honestly, it's a perfectly valid argument to say that Tebow won't make it as a NFL QB but no need to try and not give him any credit when he does well.

but having a year traning under nfl coaches makes all the difference just look at blake griffen in the nba. its his first year as a starter and as such he sould be given a bit of a break in his first 2-3 games but he is definetley not in the same boat as a rookie. i also agree that he deserves credit especially for the win against miami sure the dolphins are having a poor year but an nfl win is never easy and comebacks are harder again.

vinny chase

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It's no being pendantic, a 2nd year QB who has no starts still has a big advantage over a true rookie QB yet you make it out as if both are starting from the same point. Rookie QB's get leeway because they haven't had much time to get used to new coaching, new playbook, and everything else that comes with being an NFL QB. Tebow has had the advantage of being in the NFL for a year.

No I don't, it was actually the other way around. McGee rushing threat is what gave Tebow more room and space. Tebow's last 4 minutes against Dolphins was good, that's probably the only time I've been even slightly impressed with Tebow as a QB. If you set a mythical bar of what you expect from a franchise NFL quarterback I don't think Tebow has come close to reaching that level yet and he didn't do it yesterday.

I dunno if I entirely agree with you.

I know Tebow has some awful, awful problems with his mechanics and other issues that might mean he'll never make it as a good NFL QB, but I don't necessarily agree with your contention that he's necessarily in a better position to win than a rookie QB.

Tebow got no action last season until garbage time in the season, and got effectively no reps with the first teamers. By contrast, a guy like Cam Newton gets all the reps in Carolina, and has an offense tailored around him and his strengths. The way the Broncos were set up to play football was never going to be too accommodating to a player with Tebow's skill set.

raven136

bruschi wrote: »

why? is putting your hand to your head whilst on one knee a particulairy significant religious act? or is it just something one player does? its not making fun of a religion, its making fun of a player.

I'd like to see Tebow doing well, but in the limited bits I saw on redzone last night, he just looks so panicky when pressure is on, and his throwing takes forever to get out and is wild. I pity the guy because of the hype heaped on him, but he just doesnt look like a quality player.

lloyd suggested his use in an option offence like scott, and thats how I would see him too, a new version of the wildcat or something. if he plays a full game every game for a season, his tricks and what not will be esily stopped. but limit his participation and give the defence something to think about, and he could be very useful.

The games the broncos won, I would have fully expected Orton to win as well. the schedule has helped Tebow in that sense, and he nearly even muffed it up against Miami.

Im pretty sure everyone see's it as a religious act.Isnt he is prayer while "Tebowing"

Chucky the tree

vinny chase wrote: »

I dunno if I entirely agree with you.

I know Tebow has some awful, awful problems with his mechanics and other issues that might mean he'll never make it as a good NFL QB, but I don't necessarily agree with your contention that he's necessarily in a better position to win than a rookie QB.

Tebow got no action last season until garbage time in the season, and got effectively no reps with the first teamers. By contrast, a guy like Cam Newton gets all the reps in Carolina, and has an offense tailored around him and his strengths. The way the Broncos were set up to play football was never going to be too accommodating to a player with Tebow's skill set.

Tebow got 3 games last year and I'm guessing 3 weeks with all the first teamers last year aswell. Add having NFL coaching on his mechnics for a whole year, spending full days working with NFL players and learning an NFL play book he's at a big advantage. As for contrast, why not look at Christian Ponder? 2nd stringer rookie who came in having no limited reps in practice with first team etc and in only his 2nd start he's achieved a better completion percentage in one game then Tebow ever has.

As for Denver not accommodating to Tebows skill set, how have they not done that? What should they do differently to accomdate to a guy who struggles passing the ball?

bruschi

raven136 wrote: »

Im pretty sure everyone see's it as a religious act.Isnt he is prayer while "Tebowing"

is it a particular action that is related soley to one religion? does the 'tebowing' have a significant place in whatever faith Tebow follows?

raven136

bruschi wrote: »

is it a particular action that is related soley to one religion? does the 'tebowing' have a significant place in whatever faith Tebow follows?

I believe he is a christian and its him in prayer.

So doing the Tebow after a sack is in fact mocking prayer......I am not saying this is what i believe,its just i heard it mentioned on a few radio shows and online.

doing the tebow after a celebration is teasing tim himself. tim has come out and said he didn't take offence to it and hes dead right frankly it wasn't ment as anti religious so i see no harm in it it beats an end standing over a qb shouting at him after a sack

Dohnny Jepp

"A prayer in a public school football field, god has no place within these walls, just like facts have no place within organised religion." -Superintendant Chalmers

bruschi

raven136 wrote: »

I believe he is a christian and its him in prayer.

So doing the Tebow after a sack is in fact mocking prayer......I am not saying this is what i believe,its just i heard it mentioned on a few radio shows and online.

well its ridiculous IMO. its trying to link three different things to get to mocking religion. Its mocking tebow, end of. its his 'celebration' thing, just like 'lights out' or woodleys kick. and when it goes against them, the opposition use it to mock them. fair play to Tebow for not taking offence to it, and that is the main thing at the end of it all, if he has no problem with it, that should be it.

tallaghtoutlaws

The whole thing is nonsense. The majority of the guys that have mocked him are just as Christian as Tebow is. Many football players are religious folk and die hard Christians. To say they are mocking Tebows religion is nonsense at best.

The only problem here is people bringing religion into the argument. They are clearly mocking Tebow.

Besides that are all these clowns throwing these accusations going to now go and get the Tebowing website closed down also? After all they are also mocking Tebow or pretending to be him. By their logic they would also be mocking Christianity right? As I said nonsense.

mikemac

Copying a move or dance is just mocking and an equlvalent of smack talk realy, if you find religion there you're reading too much into it

Been going on since, well since football began

TO did it to Ray Lewis years ago
And both of them are dedicated Christians

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzhUi-7U-Ho

Tebowing has nothing to do with prayer

Syferus

I think it's wrong not to acknowledge that mocking 'Tebowing' doesn't cut a far finer line than most other instances of imitation like this, because at the end of the day he's having a quite moment to himself, not dancing around like someone spiked his Gatorade with cocaine, but the vast majority of it is just good-natured fun.

tallaghtoutlaws

Syferus wrote: »

I think it's wrong not to acknowledge that mocking 'Tebowing' doesn't cut a far finer line than most other instances of imitation like this, because at the end of the day he's having a quite moment to himself, not dancing around like someone spiked his Gatorade with cocaine, but the vast majority of it is just good-natured fun.

Cut a far finer line? Ah here thats just stupid. The simple fact is that the media and fans started the mocking. The media went on about it and then the fans created a website dedicated to it and what happens next? Players start doing it. And Christians everywhere pick up on it and bang on about the lack of respect etc etc which is pure nonsense. I can guarantee you not one of those players mock him over the fact he is praying or having a moment with god or whatever religious tag you want to put with it.

The fact that religion has been brought into this in the first place is pathetic. The mad thing is I doubt Tebow gives a fook about players mocking him.

Tullochs Response on Twitter to it.



This guy sums it up best:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Mocking-Tebowing-is-not-the-same-as-mocking-Tebo;_ylt=An4oXVCirosY8AP9qAZEGbH.uLYF?urn=nfl-wp10998

spiralism

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Cut a far finer line? Ah here thats just stupid. The simple fact is that the media and fans started the mocking. The media went on about it and then the fans created a website dedicated to it and what happens next? Players start doing it. And Christians everywhere pick up on it and bang on about the lack of respect etc etc which is pure nonsense. I can guarantee you not one of those players mock him over the fact he is praying or having a moment with god or whatever religious tag you want to put with it.

The fact that religion has been brought into this in the first place is pathetic. The mad thing is I doubt Tebow gives a fook about players mocking him.

Tullochs Response on Twitter to it.



This guy sums it up best:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Mocking-Tebowing-is-not-the-same-as-mocking-Tebo;_ylt=An4oXVCirosY8AP9qAZEGbH.uLYF?urn=nfl-wp10998

Yeah you're right. I think Tebow said he didnt have too much issue with people mocking it anyways, technically anybody who imitates the celebration and isnt praying could be said to be mocking it as well?

Denver fans were a LOT more annoyed by Scheffler's TD celebration in the same match than what Tulloch did, fwiw

Just a bit of harmless piss taking, these people who find it religiously offensive would want to put on a slayer cd or something lol

spiralism

Anyways...Back on Topic.

I said earlier on the run game would open up with Tebow in because running QBs make it very hard to key in on the run game as well. We've averaged 209 yards a game on the ground since Tebow took over (we actually ran all over Detroit for what it was worth) and the rushing total has gone up in each game since.

We now rank fifth in rushing after struggling badly in the opening games on the ground. The no.1 rushing team is Philly with Vick at QB. No concidence that CJs 2000 yard season was with Vince Young at QB either.

Say what you want about Tebow's flaws, we are a running team and he opened up the run game like I said he would. I'd keep him nearly for that alone.

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

Say what you want about Tebow's flaws, we are a running team and he opened up the run game like I said he would. I'd keep him nearly for that alone.

But Like Miami and the Wild Cat teams will figure it out and force Denver to Throw. Vick and even now Newton will tell you how important it is to be able to Throw the ball when needs be. And if Denver dont fix and speed up Tebows release and time in the pocket by fixing his mechanics it will be their downfall.

Newton can run like fook but you don't see him doing it all the time unless the option becomes available to him. And the mad thing is in his first few games he was hesitant to run as he was trying to prove himself as a passer. Now that he has done that he is becoming very comfortable in the pocket. But Tebow isn't and it shows. And as much as Denver fans want to pretend Sunday's win was all him the Raiders defense handed them that win on a plate even Tebows deep passes where to guys who more open than the grand canyon. Bad discipline and blown coverages and plays by the Raiders helped in that win.

If Denver plan to run Tebow more often than not they will be found out if they can't throw the football. The league has better run stopping Defenses on a whole than pass defenses. Hence why the league has gone to a passing mad league and why teams are trying to find that pure atheltic DB who will be the next Revis or Nnamdi.

Morrisseeee

I (for one) would like to see this thread go-on-and-on-and-on ;-) ie. come on Teeeebow (ya great big gladiator), get us another win ! Seriously tho, what odds on the bucking Broncos winning the division eeeeek !

spiralism

No activity here in two days, what is going on at all..

Seriously though, should we get the win tomorrow, we're up to 2nd in the AFC West and will have been 3-1 since making the switch. Big if though, especially given how erratic Kansas are atm

spiralism

...and just like that we're 2nd in the AFC west and 3-1 since making the switch

Tebow literally had nothing to do today but put up 14 of our 17 points.... uh...WINNING!

Peyton Manning

Tebow now has the same number of wins as a starter in 7 games as Orton did in 18 games. An awful lot of Broncos fans can feel vindicated, because the vast majority of them just wanted this switch at QB to improve the fortunes of their team, and were laughed at and scorned for having that opinion and wanting to see it happen. Delighted for them.

spiralism

Cam Newton wrote: »

Tebow now has the same number of wins as a starter in 7 games as Orton did in 18 games. An awful lot of Broncos fans can feel vindicated, because the vast majority of them just wanted this switch at QB to improve the fortunes of their team, and were laughed at and scorned for having that opinion and wanting to see it happen. Delighted for them.

Much appreciated, certainly feel vindicated now alright, i was laughed at in this same thread for merely wanting tebow in and thinking he'd fare better than orton was doing... feels good being right so far!