Denver Broncos Thread

Jopari87 · 01-11-2011 09:44PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Whats the NFL average do you know?

Speed rushers like D Ware and Freeney say they try to get to the qb in about 4 seconds or less, so I guess anything over 4 is living dangerously.

Jopari87 · 01-11-2011 10:13PM

Average release time is 2.4 seconds.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1173842/2/index.htm

tallaghtoutlaws · 02-11-2011 01:42AM

eagle eye wrote: »

Thats exactly what I was not looking for. I'm sure the stats are available somewhere for everybody.

Why didn't you go look for them yourself? Or offer it up? As reading over what you wrote it seems you already knew the answer right?

tallaghtoutlaws · 02-11-2011 02:05AM

Just to add to this excluding the drop back and snap the release time of the QB winding up and releasing the ball should be on average between .300-.500 milliseconds. The more Elite guys being in and around .300 - .400 or so.

Now add this to the snap happening and the QB's dropback and reads any elite QB will have the ball gone between 2.3-3 seconds. Anything over 3-4 then you are dicing with danger. There are some QBs who over the years could deal with 3-4 seconds to release and did well with it. Peyton Manning being one of those guys. Drew Brees is another guy who pushes over 3 seconds a lot.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure

Now Tebow's wind ups vary between .500 and .734, add this to his bad footwork and slow reads at times it is one of the reasons why he takes so much flak.

I will try find the source for this tomorrow at some point its been a while since I read it.

In modern QB academy throughout the US they are teaching quicker releases for their QBs. Some High School and future college students with insane releases of the football. Some as quick as .325 - .335. One kid I read about was hovering around the .335 mark every time.

Chucky the tree · 02-11-2011 05:14PM

A truly terrible performance on Sunday, but certainly not surprising. It will be interesting to see how his career goes from here, the good news is it can(surely) only go up. :pac:

davyjose · 02-11-2011 09:28PM

Tebow was poor on Sunday, but it wasn't him who gave up 45 points to Detroit.
Also, Fox's play calling was in no way suited to Tebow's game. Some might call that spite. Even guys like Rodgers and Brady have weaknesses, and usually a good coach will try to call plays that highlight their starting QB's strengths. Denver did not do this on Sunday.

davyjose · 02-11-2011 09:33PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Just to add to this excluding the drop back and snap the release time of the QB winding up and releasing the ball should be on average between .300-.500 milliseconds. The more Elite guys being in and around .300 - .400 or so.

Now add this to the snap happening and the QB's dropback and reads any elite QB will have the ball gone between 2.3-3 seconds. Anything over 3-4 then you are dicing with danger. There are some QBs who over the years could deal with 3-4 seconds to release and did well with it. Peyton Manning being one of those guys. Drew Brees is another guy who pushes over 3 seconds a lot.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-pressure/2011/under-pressure

Now Tebow's wind ups vary between .500 and .734, add this to his bad footwork and slow reads at times it is one of the reasons why he takes so much flak.

I will try find the source for this tomorrow at some point its been a while since I read it.

In modern QB academy throughout the US they are teaching quicker releases for their QBs. Some High School and future college students with insane releases of the football. Some as quick as .325 - .335. One kid I read about was hovering around the .335 mark every time.

it's a seperate point, but this won't make them Marino or Favre. I could release a ball in that time. It would only go about 5 yards and 45 degrees the wrong way, but I could release it that quick. The great ones can do it fast, accurate and quick. That's genetics and ability at play. Not teaching. In no sport are the elite made, they're born.

Chucky the tree · 02-11-2011 09:35PM

davyjose wrote: »

Tebow was poor on Sunday, but it wasn't him who gave up 45 points to Detroit.
Also, Fox's play calling was in no way suited to Tebow's game. Some might call that spite. Even guys like Rodgers and Brady have weaknesses, and usually a good coach will try to call plays that highlight their starting QB's strengths. Denver did not do this on Sunday.

What play's should they have called? It's hard to play call well for a Quarterback who's strength is running and who's weakness is passing.

Jopari87 · 02-11-2011 10:03PM

davyjose wrote: »

it's a seperate point, but this won't make them Marino or Favre. I could release a ball in that time. It would only go about 5 yards and 45 degrees the wrong way, but I could release it that quick. The great ones can do it fast, accurate and quick. That's genetics and ability at play. Not teaching. In no sport are the elite made, they're born.

While I agree genetics have a bearing, willpower and work ethic can iron out a lot of defects.

For instance Peyton Manning growing up talks about Eli having far better mechanics and athleticism, yet Peyton's work ethic and study that have made him the better qb.

Gary Neville is an example of somebody who is not a natural footballer making it by working harder than others.

Saying that I think Tebow has too many things to correct (pass mechanics, feet, reading defences, accuracy etc.), that work ethic will not be enough.

tallaghtoutlaws · 02-11-2011 10:11PM

davyjose wrote: »

it's a seperate point, but this won't make them Marino or Favre. I could release a ball in that time. It would only go about 5 yards and 45 degrees the wrong way, but I could release it that quick. The great ones can do it fast, accurate and quick. That's genetics and ability at play. Not teaching. In no sport are the elite made, they're born.

When it comes to fast releases I am sorry Davyjose but you are wrong. I have seen the work first hand some of these clinics can do for guys who have never thrown. Now not to say they will all ever go Pro but proper mechanics and quick releases can be fixed. Look at Manning and Brees they have two of the slower releases when it comes to Elite QBs but their mechanics and ethics count for the rest. Throwing a football isn't something you are born with and that is a fact.

As for you releasing a ball in time if you can't do it accurately it means your mechanics are sh1te plain and simple. Anyone could throw a ball under 5 seconds but doing it with the right teaching and mechanics is key for the game. Same with any sport.

I have done a lot of coaching clinics and talk to many coaches and developing a QB can be done. Hence the work Tebow did in the off season and continues to do. For Tebow its now about breaking bad habit.

LuckyLloyd · 04-11-2011 02:04PM

With a faster release the above wouldn't be as possible!!

LuckyLloyd · 04-11-2011 02:32PM

Some Tebow Stats, per ESPN:

It's taking Tim Tebow (QBR this week: down again, to just 3.4) an average of 3.64 seconds to throw the ball, the most time in the league. And the problem isn't his offensive line or receivers, as Kyle Orton took 2.60 seconds to get throws away with the same teammates around him. Tebow's mobility won't help his game as long as his indecisiveness leads to sacks, and he's taken 13 in the past two games. (Indeed, his willingness to run will be worse than useless if he just keeps scrambling around the backfield.) And make no mistake, opponents are noticing. Through Week 7, Detroit had sent extra pass-rushers on just 17.1 percent of plays, the second-lowest rate in the league. But the Lions blitzed on 55.6 percent of Tebow's dropbacks through three quarters on Sunday. (Then, protecting a huge lead, they got more conservative in the fourth quarter.) And Tebow crumbled under the extra pressure, completing just 2 of 13 passes for a measly 3.4 yards per attempt against Detroit blitzes, with an interception and three sacks.

And their next adjustment is coming: Tebow now has four TDs and no INTs on screen plays, where he has completed 83.3 percent of his passes for 11.2 YPA. On all other passes, he's connecting a dismal 43.6 percent of his targets. You think a split that extreme is good news or bad news?

frostie500 · 05-11-2011 07:23PM

Tebow's performance last week was embarrassing for an NFL starter and exposed all the flaws in his game that many of us have talked about since the draft last year.
When the Lions brought pressure Tebow made terrible decisions that showed that he is in now way ready to start in the pros. He looked unprepared throughout the game and there is no excuse for that. Im sure many of his fans will point to the lockout as a major factor in his lack of development but has that same lockout stopped Andy Dalton, Cam Newton and now Christian Ponder from looking like quality starters in the league?
In his two games as a starter Tebow has been abysmal for 115 minutes and miraculous for 5 against the incredibly poor Dolphins. As a QB he has absolutely no value in the NFL as a full time starter. He is simply a gimmick player in this league for the simple reason that he is inaccurate and shows very poor decision making skills.
For all the mechanics coaching Tebow went through over the last couple of years his throwing motion was shown up for being too long and because his long release time it played a crucial role in a couple of fumbles in the last two games which with respect to Tebow has to bring into question his lauded work ethic that will, according to his fans, make him a solid performer in the NFL.
The Broncos needed to play Tebow to show their fans that he has no future in the league so I expect them to play him for another couple of games and then hand the keys over to Brady Quinn. He didnt do much in Cleveland but some of that was also because Derek Anderson had a pro bowl year and the Browns were, understandably reluctant to get bench him for a few years. Once they did the team was poor and both Quinn and Anderson struggled in 09.
I think that he deserves a chance with the Broncos simply so that the team can see what they have in him. During training camp he was apparently much better than Tebow and if he has applied himself throughout the season to the same degree he has earned the right to start whereas Tebow starting was clearly just so John Fox and John Elway could simply show the fans that Tebow does not belong at this level of football at present.

Just to add to this I loved watching Tebow play in college but he is another example of a player whose skillsets are more suited to the college game than the NFL. He will go down as one of the greatest college players of all time. I also wouldnt call Tebow a bust in the NFL either, he was simply drafted too high by a coach with a history of poor drafting decisions.

Syferus · 06-11-2011 01:18AM

Sorry bro, it's Tebow time.

Syferus · 07-11-2011 06:13AM

Syferus wrote: »

Sorry bro, it's Tebow time.

I did call it..

Stev_o · 07-11-2011 12:16PM

Against a **** Raiders team with a equally bad QB at the helm. Tebow is always going to excel at these mickey mouse teams give him respect. But if people are content with a season beating only those teams so be it.

Peyton Manning · 07-11-2011 12:29PM

Stev_o wrote: »

Against a **** Raiders team with a equally bad QB at the helm. Tebow is always going to excel at these mickey mouse teams give him respect. But if people are content with a season beating only those teams so be it.

At the end of the day, Tebow is now 3-3 as starting QB for the Broncos. Kyle Orton was 4-14 during the time Tebow has been there. Nobody is asking Tebow to show he's as good as Aaron Rodgers, nor is nobody here claiming that he is, they're just asking him to help the team get better results than Orton did with the same players, and he's doing that (even minus Brandon Lloyd). He's gotten 75% of the wins Orton had already, despite Orton playing 12 games more than Tebow. And in that regard, the Broncos fans who have asked for Tebow to start have been justified because the results are all that matters.

raven136 · 07-11-2011 12:35PM

I hope Tebow works out,seems a genuinely decent chap but hard to disagree with Glazer on him last week,basically a running back who can throw at the minute,not a QB who can throw.

One thing that irks about the tebowing thing after the sack last week,plenty of radio shows i heard made the point would they have made fun of a Jew or Muslim in that way?Just an interesting aside.

Chucky the tree · 07-11-2011 12:40PM

Cam Newton wrote: »

At the end of the day, Tebow is now 3-3 as starting QB for the Broncos. Kyle Orton was 4-14 during the time Tebow has been there. Nobody is asking Tebow to show he's as good as Aaron Rodgers, nor is nobody here claiming that he is, they're just asking him to help the team get better results than Orton did with the same players, and he's doing that (even minus Brandon Lloyd). He's gotten 75% of the wins Orton had already, despite Orton playing 12 games more than Tebow. And in that regard, the Broncos fans who have asked for Tebow to start have been justified because the results are all that matters.

Well they are also asking him to show he can be the teams franchise QB aswell. This is about winning games only, it's about proving he has what it takes to make and he has what it takes for the Broncos to feel comfortable going with him next year as their number #1. So far he's failed miserably answering the question which is the only one that matters.

ucd.1985 · 07-11-2011 01:26PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well they are also asking him to show he can be the teams franchise QB aswell. This is about winning games only, it's about proving he has what it takes to make and he has what it takes for the Broncos to feel comfortable going with him next year as their number #1. So far he's failed miserably answering the question which is the only one that matters.

He is certainly showing that he is a better franchise QB than Kyle Orton.

spiralism · 07-11-2011 01:37PM

Stev_o wrote: »

Against a **** Raiders team with a equally bad QB at the helm. Tebow is always going to excel at these mickey mouse teams give him respect. But if people are content with a season beating only those teams so be it.

That raiders team is a lot of things but it's not ****. It was a great win, and excuses aren't given for winning i believe it was said in this thread when Orton led us to a win back in week two?

Tebow did what was asked of him yesterday and the read option offence worked a treat, its the most yards we've put up on the ground since TD was our running back. Real star yesterday was Willis McGahee, broken hand and he puts up 163 yards on 20 carries with 2 TDs...heroic. Eddie Royal was ****ing deadly too

End of the day though, it hasnt been pretty with him at the helm but we're in a results business and we're 2-1 with him as starter this season!

Chucky the tree · 07-11-2011 01:41PM

The Raiders team were most definitely **** yesterday, no one can argue against that.

spiralism · 07-11-2011 01:49PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The Raiders team were most definitely **** yesterday, no one can argue against that.

Well yeah, ye commited about a billion yards in penalties, but its not a bad team overall and there's no excuses for winning. We flat out ran through, past and over ye.

Kansas next, if we can manage a W at Arrowhead against a team that just got **** on by Miami we're suddenly 4-5 and joint second in the AFC West.

Stev_o · 07-11-2011 01:54PM

spiralism wrote: »

Well yeah, ye commited about a billion yards in penalties, but its not a bad team overall and there's no excuses for winning. We flat out ran through, past and over ye.

Kansas next, if we can manage a W at Arrowhead against a team that just got **** on by Miami we're suddenly 4-5 and joint second in the AFC West.

They are the most penalised team in the League for a start. Their defence has one notable player. Their secondary is quite poor (imo). Their offence is without it's two main players. They are quite bad.

If Cambell was playing do you think Denver would of won?

tallaghtoutlaws · 07-11-2011 01:56PM

Syferus wrote: »

I did call it..

Blue Peter badge on its way to you dude

spiralism · 07-11-2011 01:58PM

Stev_o wrote: »

They are the most penalised team in the League for a start. Their defence has one notable player. Their secondary is quite poor (imo). Their offence is without it's two main players. They are quite bad.

If Cambell was playing do you think Denver would of won?

...And we're the 1985 Bears?

And as for the question...Yup. Palmer is much better, Campbell has only beat us when his attempts have been kept down because their run game was working so well.

They're also quite well coached, have an explosive offence and an underrated defence that lost the best corner in the league during the offseason. Still my pick to win the AFC West, San Diego are chokers, we're not good enough and Kansas are a bit all over the place. Though if Kansas had Charles, they'd walk home with a second straight division title.

LuckyLloyd · 07-11-2011 02:02PM

spiralism wrote: »

That raiders team is a lot of things but it's not ****. It was a great win, and excuses aren't given for winning i believe it was said in this thread when Orton led us to a win back in week two?

Tebow did what was asked of him yesterday and the read option offence worked a treat, its the most yards we've put up on the ground since TD was our running back. Real star yesterday was Willis McGahee, broken hand and he puts up 163 yards on 20 carries with 2 TDs...heroic. Eddie Royal was ****ing deadly too

End of the day though, it hasnt been pretty with him at the helm but we're in a results business and we're 2-1 with him as starter this season!

Tebow will run out of gimmicks soon. Screen passes, read option, roll outs - defenses are going to figure it all out.

Kansas City should be fun next (they looked hapless yesterday). Enjoy it. But then you got New York and San Diego, and a three week stretch in December against Chicago, New England and Buffalo. There is going to be a lot of ugly stuff ala Detroit before this season is done, and at the end people arguing for him as a viable Franchise QB will be thin on the ground.

07-11-2011 02:03PM

Cam Newton wrote: »

The only decent QB controversy? Don't know about that, John Beck vs Rex Grossman has the potential to rival Jimmy vs Timmy's cripple fight in South Park.

haha best quote ever. hate to say it cause i like the guy but tebows only good as a wildcat/redzone qb cant see him ever being more that a 50-50 qb

LuckyLloyd · 07-11-2011 02:06PM

By the way, what yesterday did show is that Tebow has value as an NFL player. He is able to make plays, and if used as a change up at the right time could be an effective weapon ala Brad Smith.

Chucky the tree · 07-11-2011 02:08PM

Sorry, but we coached terribly defence. The performance last night was a disgrace by us and it showed how badly we are coached. I still can't see past the chargers for the West.

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