Microsoft says: "PC gamers are better than console gamers"

cherryghost

This thread reminds me of a similar thread 2 months ago.... and 6 months ago, and 3/4 times last year, and a similar number the year before that.

And guess what? They all went the same way as this one.

Pro this, pro that, a bit of low level trolling.

Both sides have advantages to what it has and can do. I may play PC mostly but I respect and love my 360 too.

Also lol at that chris guy on youtube playing on a CRACKED illegal server. Useless players in that :P

CORaven

Retr0gamer wrote: »

How often can you honestly say you have needed to use the analogue movement speed during an FPS and weren't pushing the stick to its limits at all times? Even the analogue direction the stick provides is handled by the combination of keyboard and mouse and is better on keyboard and mous due to the increased accuracy and speed of a truly analogue controller like a mouse and not the fake analogue of a thumbstick.

I actually prefer the walk/run toggle switch. The only FPS game I've needed it in was Thief and I would have been pretty annoyed if I was using a thumbstick to control my speed since the throw is so short it's hard to judge if you are about to go over the walk/run threshold level.

As for using more than one finger to control WASD, i'd much prefer that to the alternative which is taking my finger completely off the thumbstick if I want to reload, use, jump or other actions mapped to the face buttons. The beauty of WASD is that these actions are all bound in close proximity to the WASD keys so there's little delay and you'vemore control. You don't see good typists typing with the one finger?

Half of the time, although I use it more frequently in tactical situations (COD SnD) and more frequently in platforming games. I do not understand how you can think a mouse can have some miraculous advantage over a thumbstick in regards to what direction you are facing. Grand, it is more precise for aiming, but any slight inaccuracy that one would make with a controller can be counter measured with either of the thumbsticks, be it by readjusting that 15 degrees, or by walking forward without the need to readjust - something a keyboard is just incapable of doing...

With the case of PC, take CoD, you can move at 3 different speeds (standing up): Walk,Run & Sprint. On the consoles, you are not limited to just these three and have a wider range of speeds. It may not be practical to every game, but it is there. As for games that have zones for movement speeds instead of a smooth transition, not knowing said zones comes under inexperience of the game, not the fault of the controller.

As for the WASD vs thumbstick. That is grand for you, but I usually use my right hand for the reload button on a controller. Using a finger on your left hand to reload impacts your movement abilty (WASD), were as on a controller it is usually done with the right hand. Now depending on the game, said action could be done with one of the buttons with which you use you index finger, or worst case scenario you need to use your thumb. If you use your thumb, you lose the use of the ability to move your viewpoint. Now, since you are reloading, you cannot shoot so aiming is not that important. What would be more important would be movement for me which you are free to do on a controller without interruption. Furthermore, the number of easily accessible buttons on a controller is higher than on a mouse. Then you can add in the triggers which do not impact either your movement or aiming.

I know I am breaking it down bit by bit, I am just trying to see how you see it.

Retr0gamer

See the thing is you think that WASD is at a disadvantage over a thumbstick because it only has 4 movement directions but this isn't true because when used in combination with a mouse it has as much directional combinations. You're never just solely moving forward, back, and strafing left to right. These four actions are modified by the mouse. If you have used a keyboard and mouse set up frequently then you wouldn't even be questioning this.

As for the inaccuracy with the controller, it has to be offset by a huge amount of aim assist. Try playing a game with aim assist off and it becomes very difficult to make small adjustments to your aim and it's very frustrating. A mouse is so accurate that there's no need to aim assist.

As for the number of easily accessible buttons on a controller compared to a mouse, if you want to game on a PC properly you'll want to get something a bit better than the standard two button mouse. Anyway all the keys you need mapped around WASD meaning it takes a matter of microseconds to press them and you still don't lose full control like you do when you have to use the face buttons on a console.

Of course you then add in the advantage of how fast you can aim and turn with a mouse. Most new games have been slowed right down for console play but take a look at some high level Quake 1, 2 or 3 gameplay to see stuff that is just impossible to pull off on a gamepad.

I'm sorry but there really is no comparison here. The kb + mouse combo is superior to the gamepad, it's jus a fact and I can't see how anyone that has used both can argue against it. A Gamepad isn't exactly unusable but the fact that it relies so heavily on aim assist to even be palyable is proof enough.

CORaven

Retr0gamer wrote: »

See the thing is you think that WASD is at a disadvantage over a thumbstick because it only has 4 movement directions but this isn't true because when used in combination with a mouse it has as much directional combinations. You're never just solely moving forward, back, and strafing left to right. These four actions are modified by the mouse. If you have used a keyboard and mouse set up frequently then you wouldn't even be questioning this.

I do have a keyboard and mouse set up frequently, mainly for slower paced games such as L4D2's Scavenge. Even playing this, the inability to walk backward and slightly to the side while aiming/shooting is irritating and a hindrance. My point is that without the mouse's constant assistance, the keyboard's movement options are a bit pants.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

As for the number of easily accessible buttons on a controller compared to a mouse, if you want to game on a PC properly you'll want to get something a bit better than the standard two button mouse. Anyway all the keys you need mapped around WASD meaning it takes a matter of microseconds to press them and you still don't lose full control like you do when you have to use the face buttons on a console.

I would assume we are dealing it standard control systems. Yes you can get a mouse with more buttons than the number of fingers on your hand, but you can get the same with a controller. Hell you can get a brace for your controller that remaps the face buttons to extra triggers on the xbox pad. Now, if you are saying that you lose control over a pad for more than a few microseconds when using the face buttons I would get your thumbs checked. Button placement is smooth and time efficient.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Of course you then add in the advantage of how fast you can aim and turn with a mouse. Most new games have been slowed right down for console play but take a look at some high level Quake 1, 2 or 3 gameplay to see stuff that is just impossible to pull off on a gamepad.

Meh, played it years ago (prefer UT tbh). I agree it is an insanely fast paced game and would be unplayable to the same extend with a controller. I am going to take the reverse stance to you. You claim that the gamepad has effected the FPS gaiming scene negatively by slowing the game down. I would take the stab that the dual analogue system has actually impacted gaming positively. Looking at a few clips of Quake, map design seems to be fairly the same. Everything is right angles, large open areas, narrow corridors. I would imagine this has to do with my earlier statement of difficulty moving backward and aiming another way. The open areas are simple to strafe with just 8 directions and you do not have to worry to much about bumping into objects. Now move over to Halo Reach on the xbox where strafing requires a larger number of axis to move around obstacles (both map design, allies and debris on the ground). While I am not expert on map designing, I only do it as a hobby, focal points of attention on modern shooters are not as linear as the once were. Having to move up a winding stairs and fight off a guy or two coming in from different angles is common on console shooters and is much more difficult on a K&M.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm sorry but there really is no comparison here. The kb + mouse combo is superior to the gamepad, it's jus a fact and I can't see how anyone that has used both can argue against it. A Gamepad isn't exactly unusable but the fact that it relies so heavily on aim assist to even be palyable is proof enough.

It just seems odd. Your entire argument about why the K&M is better rests solely on the mouse. Of course the mouse beats a right thumbstick. The mouse has a foot by foot of movement to define its input where as the thumbstick has a few centimetres squared. However, imo the controller wins in every other aspect - movement, button use, flexibility.
Furthermore, the advantages you listed are only applicable to FPSs. If you wander outside of this single genre of games you will find that the controller is better than a standard keyboard and mouse in every way.

Funky

CORaven wrote: »

It just seems odd. Your entire argument about why the K&M is better rests solely on the mouse. Of course the mouse beats a right thumbstick. The mouse has a foot by foot of movement to define its input where as the thumbstick has a few centimetres squared. However, imo the controller wins in every other aspect - movement, button use, flexibility.
Furthermore, the advantages you listed are only applicable to FPSs. If you wander outside of this single genre of games you will find that the controller is better than a standard keyboard and mouse in every way.

The difference when playing RTS games is even bigger. All the issues you have with keyboard movement aren't design flaws, not trying to troll or anything but it just sounds like you aren't great at using one. Map design in new age FPS' is not revolutionary. Quake players don't have difficulty going up those damn complex winding stairs lol.

Kiith

Magill wrote: »

Movement and aimwise the average public PC player is FAR worse than that in terms of both movement AND aiming... but mostly the average gamer in general is stupid and is easy to outplay.

Hang on, are you saying that your average pc gamer is worse then your average console gamer? Or that average gamers in general are bad at moving and aiming? Without trying to sound like a smart ass, do you have anything to back that up? I would have thought that your average pc player would be pretty much the same as your average console player, with maybe a slight technical advantage in their controls.

Retr0gamer

CORaven wrote: »

I do have a keyboard and mouse set up frequently, mainly for slower paced games such as L4D2's Scavenge. Even playing this, the inability to walk backward and slightly to the side while aiming/shooting is irritating and a hindrance. My point is that without the mouse's constant assistance, the keyboard's movement options are a bit pants.

Yes, but you do have the mouses constant assistance making the whole keyboard argument a non issue. If you think the keyboard in conjunction with the mouse only allows you 4 directions of movement then you aren't playing well.

CORaven wrote: »

I would assume we are dealing it standard control systems. Yes you can get a mouse with more buttons than the number of fingers on your hand, but you can get the same with a controller. Hell you can get a brace for your controller that remaps the face buttons to extra triggers on the xbox pad. Now, if you are saying that you lose control over a pad for more than a few microseconds when using the face buttons I would get your thumbs checked. Button placement is smooth and time efficient.

TBH all you need is a 3 button mouse. Every other action can be mapped around WASD. Also the distance between the keys around wasd compared to the face buttons on a controller is tiny and you also don't lose complete control when you need to press a button.

CORaven wrote: »

Meh, played it years ago (prefer UT tbh). I agree it is an insanely fast paced game and would be unplayable to the same extend with a controller. I am going to take the reverse stance to you. You claim that the gamepad has effected the FPS gaiming scene negatively by slowing the game down. I would take the stab that the dual analogue system has actually impacted gaming positively. Looking at a few clips of Quake, map design seems to be fairly the same. Everything is right angles, large open areas, narrow corridors. I would imagine this has to do with my earlier statement of difficulty moving backward and aiming another way. The open areas are simple to strafe with just 8 directions and you do not have to worry to much about bumping into objects. Now move over to Halo Reach on the xbox where strafing requires a larger number of axis to move around obstacles (both map design, allies and debris on the ground). While I am not expert on map designing, I only do it as a hobby, focal points of attention on modern shooters are not as linear as the once were. Having to move up a winding stairs and fight off a guy or two coming in from different angles is common on console shooters and is much more difficult on a K&M.

I'm not saying the gamepad has affected games negatively, it's just that games relying on it have to be slower paced to account for the limits of the gamepad. The boxy quake levels were a product of a limited graphics engine, not something to do with working around the controls. As FPS game engines progressed levels got more organic and have fast open levels and levels with winding corridors as opposed to right angles from as early as Quake 2. If you are having trouble navigating objects with a keyboard and mouse then you need more practice is all. As for fighting off people on a winding stairs being difficult? I remember being rather nifty at it when playing the seminal multiplayer map 'The Edge' on Quake 2. If you think that PC multiplayer maps are more right angles by design well then you just haven't been playing enough PC shooters.

CORaven wrote: »

It just seems odd. Your entire argument about why the K&M is better rests solely on the mouse. Of course the mouse beats a right thumbstick. The mouse has a foot by foot of movement to define its input where as the thumbstick has a few centimetres squared. However, imo the controller wins in every other aspect - movement, button use, flexibility.
Furthermore, the advantages you listed are only applicable to FPSs. If you wander outside of this single genre of games you will find that the controller is better than a standard keyboard and mouse in every way.

Yes it does rest mostly on the mouse. The way you argue it is that when you play a 3D game like an FPS you are only controlling one axis of movement at a time. However when using two thumb sticks or WASD and a mouse you are controlling all three 3D axes at the same time. To say that a thumbstick has more angles of movement than WASD is correct. However since the mouse is also modifying the players direction at the same time it's really not correct to say that two thumb sticks are better than the wasd mouse combo considering the massive gulf in mouse and thumbstick accuracy. As for winning on the amount of buttons and button placement, get a mouse with 3 buttons and a mouse wheel and a mouse wheel and you are already way ahead of the options provided by the shoulder buttons on a controller. Keys mapped around WASD are much closer together and in quicker reach than the buttons on a controller and you also have your little finger and thumb to use, personally I use them on space and shift, which gives you a further two buttons to use that does no require you to lift your fingers from WASD.

The gamepad is better than a kb and mouse combo in a lot of genres but in first person shooters, third person shooters and RTS there really isn't any argument at all.

Magill

Kiith wrote: »

Hang on, are you saying that your average pc gamer is worse then your average console gamer? Or that average gamers in general are bad at moving and aiming? Without trying to sound like a smart ass, do you have anything to back that up? I would have thought that your average pc player would be pretty much the same as your average console player, with maybe a slight technical advantage in their controls.

Nah not at all, im saying the average PC gamers(i.e the guys who go say 15k - 15d) is worse than that person in the video (A pretty good console gamer). A good PC gamers aim and movement is much better than someone whos equally skilled on the console.

The only thing you can really back that up with is videos, like those 2 i posted. One being a typical good console gamer and the other being someone whos completely new to PC gaming, whos aim and movement is clearly quite bad yet hes still able to do really well.

B00MSTICK

Magill wrote:

Not gonna lie.... i reckon i'd whoop the average PC gamer in blops tbh... using a PS3 pad (Obviously i'd need the aim assist). In general the average PC player is quite bad, they might have a mouse but in general their aim is complete dung, just like the average console gamer.

I'm sure you'd whip most average PC players with a pad... but then again, you're not an average console player.

If you take an average console player and pit him against an average PC player (in an FPS of course) I can only see it going one way.
Both players are obviously not particularly good but I reckon the PC player will have an advantage.

I'd also agree (that's what I took from your last post at least) an average Console gamer playing on a PC would do better than an average PC gamer playing on a Console.
The videos you posted show just that. Granted he's not an average console player either.

You said yourself you got destroyed at first on console and you'd be a high level PC gamer.

Does that just mean that a KB+M is more intuitive or natural?
Is it easier to learn/control?
Or has clicking around Windows/Mac/Linux already honed are mouse skills somewhat whereas a joypad/joystick would be foreign?

Magill

B00MSTICK wrote: »

I'm sure you'd whip most average PC players with a pad... but then again, you're not an average console player.

If you take an average console player and pit him against an average PC player (in an FPS of course) I can only see it going one way.
Both players are obviously not particularly good but I reckon the PC player will have an advantage.

I'd also agree (that's what I took from your last post at least) an average Console gamer playing on a PC would do better than an average PC gamer playing on a Console.
The videos you posted show just that. Granted he's not an average console player either.

You said yourself you got destroyed at first on console and you'd be a high level PC gamer.

Does that just mean that a KB+M is more intuitive or natural?
Is it easier to learn/control?
Or has clicking around Windows/Mac/Linux already honed are mouse skills somewhat whereas a joypad/joystick would be foreign?

Well... in fairness it took me a LONG time to get good on PC shooters tbh, i was still fairly **** at cs 2 or 3 years after first picking it up and before that i sucked ass at CTF + RTCW. But again i would have been completely new to shooters in general at that stage (And i was only 12 or 13 at the time).

I would say picking up and playing on PC wouldn't be too hard for someone whos played the same game a lot on console and they would probably do better than someone who picks up a console for the first time. But imo it would take the guy whos new on PC a lot longer to "Master" the mouse/keyboard. If that makes any sense.

And yeah, 2 players of equal skill on the two different platforms, theres only ever gonna be 1 winner in that situation. Theres also a HUGE gap between the best and good PC players, that gap isn't anything near as big on console... so you'd have to imagine the skill cap is much higher using a KB/M... just most aren't anywhere near it. The only reason i brought the whole "Im pretty sure i'd whoop the average PC gamer using a pad" argument is its clear some people are quite ignorant to what you can achieve using a gamepad when you put some time into it (I was the same before I stopped PC gaming).

Robert ninja

I don't play FPS, all your arguements are invalid

B00MSTICK

Magill wrote:

The only reason i brought the whole "Im pretty sure i'd whoop the average PC gamer using a pad" argument is its clear some people are quite ignorant to what you can achieve using a gamepad when you put some time into it (I was the same before I stopped PC gaming).

Same here, watching some of the top COD players I was amazed to find they were using pads.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

really?
I watched some of the cod and halo games during the sc2 breaks at the last few mlg's and you could definitely tell they weren't using kb/mouse

Helix

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

really?
I watched some of the cod and halo games during the sc2 breaks at the last few mlg's and you could definitely tell they weren't using kb/mouse

i assume turning the stick sensitivity up aaaaaaaall the way and being damn well good would improve things

most people never even touch the stick sensitivity settings, and then complain that theyre not sensitive enough

CORaven

Funky wrote: »

The difference when playing RTS games is even bigger. All the issues you have with keyboard movement aren't design flaws, not trying to troll or anything but it just sounds like you aren't great at using one. Map design in new age FPS' is not revolutionary. Quake players don't have difficulty going up those damn complex winding stairs lol.

It is not revolutionary, but it is nice to see layouts and junctions in maps that are not all a multiple of 45degrees. And regards the RTS, good control systems for console RTSs are out there that are on par with a K&M.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Yes, but you do have the mouses constant assistance making the whole keyboard argument a non issue. If you think the keyboard in conjunction with the mouse only allows you 4 directions of movement then you aren't playing well.

But it is not constant. If you are aiming or shooting at something with the mouse, your movement capabilities are restricted.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

TBH all you need is a 3 button mouse. Every other action can be mapped around WASD. Also the distance between the keys around wasd compared to the face buttons on a controller is tiny and you also don't lose complete control when you need to press a button.

&

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Yes it does rest mostly on the mouse. The way you argue it is that when you play a 3D game like an FPS you are only controlling one axis of movement at a time. However when using two thumb sticks or WASD and a mouse you are controlling all three 3D axes at the same time. To say that a thumbstick has more angles of movement than WASD is correct. However since the mouse is also modifying the players direction at the same time it's really not correct to say that two thumb sticks are better than the wasd mouse combo considering the massive gulf in mouse and thumbstick accuracy. As for winning on the amount of buttons and button placement, get a mouse with 3 buttons and a mouse wheel and a mouse wheel and you are already way ahead of the options provided by the shoulder buttons on a controller. Keys mapped around WASD are much closer together and in quicker reach than the buttons on a controller and you also have your little finger and thumb to use, personally I use them on space and shift, which gives you a further two buttons to use that does no require you to lift your fingers from WASD.

Grand, I did not take into account the scroll wheel on a mouse. But you do lose control of movement to a certain degree if you need to press the "F" key for example. An experienced PC gamer can easily alter the fingers he needs to move, just in the same way an experienced controller user can use the thumbstick with his thumb knuckle.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm not saying the gamepad has affected games negatively, it's just that games relying on it have to be slower paced to account for the limits of the gamepad. The boxy quake levels were a product of a limited graphics engine, not something to do with working around the controls. As FPS game engines progressed levels got more organic and have fast open levels and levels with winding corridors as opposed to right angles from as early as Quake 2. If you are having trouble navigating objects with a keyboard and mouse then you need more practice is all. As for fighting off people on a winding stairs being difficult? I remember being rather nifty at it when playing the seminal multiplayer map 'The Edge' on Quake 2. If you think that PC multiplayer maps are more right angles by design well then you just haven't been playing enough PC shooters.

Ok, I may have exaggerated the right angles. 45 degrees is a really reoccurring theme for me whenever I boot up a PC shooter and it has always stood out to me. I do not think that it has to do with engine limits as you said.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The gamepad is better than a kb and mouse combo in a lot of genres but in first person shooters, third person shooters and RTS there really isn't any argument at all.

FPS & TPS, yes. Although I stand by the fact that movement capabilities and multitasking are better on a controller, aiming is king in these genres.
RTS, potentially a no. Console RTSs are under developed and if there was a demand for them we would see fantastic control systems implemented as standard.

krudler

Christ not this again, its like the Isreal and Palestine of the gaming world. It all comes down to personal preference really, I'd love a kb+m setup for consoles but there isnt one for most games, so for FPS games we're stuck with joypads at the mo. so FPS games= kb+m is a better setup, everything else= joypad. simples.

I dont think using a kb+m makes you a better player though, it just means you have a more accurate aiming system. I have a mate who plays COD on pc and when he plays it on one of my consoles its like watching a 15 year old trying to undo his first bra strap with the amount of fumbling and cursing going on, yet I can hold my own not a bother playing on his pc, so which one is the better player?

Jazzy

CORaven wrote: »

It is not revolutionary, but it is nice to see layouts and junctions in maps that are not all a multiple of 45degrees. And regards the RTS, good control systems for console RTSs are out there that are on par with a K&M.


But it is not constant. If you are aiming or shooting at something with the mouse, your movement capabilities are restricted.




&
Grand, I did not take into account the scroll wheel on a mouse. But you do lose control of movement to a certain degree if you need to press the "F" key for example. An experienced PC gamer can easily alter the fingers he needs to move, just in the same way an experienced controller user can use the thumbstick with his thumb knuckle.




Ok, I may have exaggerated the right angles. 45 degrees is a really reoccurring theme for me whenever I boot up a PC shooter and it has always stood out to me. I do not think that it has to do with engine limits as you said.




FPS & TPS, yes. Although I stand by the fact that movement capabilities and multitasking are better on a controller, aiming is king in these genres.
RTS, potentially a no. Console RTSs are under developed and if there was a demand for them we would see fantastic control systems implemented as standard.

im not going to bother writing a lot of words on this but on a lot of your points you are just wrong. i know you dont want to be wrong, but you are, sorry

super_furry

Streetfighter IV.

Keyboard and mouse vs Joypad.

Round 1.

FIGHT!

Grumpypants

Can't we all just get along

Let say
FPS K&M
RTS K&M or Move
1V1 fighting games Pad
Sports games Fifa etc Pad
Driving games Pad/Wheel

and leave it at that.

Retr0gamer

CORaven wrote: »

It is not revolutionary, but it is nice to see layouts and junctions in maps that are not all a multiple of 45degrees. And regards the RTS, good control systems for console RTSs are out there that are on par with a K&M.

Just no, there really isn't. The RTS started on the consoles with Herzog Zwei and have therefore been on consoles longer than on PC. Controls for RTS on consoles haven't progressed much since that game or else are ridiculously complicated and still no where near as good with the mouse. RTS on consoles has been around far longer than FPS games and yet the controls are no where near as good.

CORaven wrote: »

But it is not constant. If you are aiming or shooting at something with the mouse, your movement capabilities are restricted.

I've played enough PC FPS games and I feel in total control of both my movement and aiming. Say I'm aiming at an enemy and want to go backwards and to the left. I press both A and S and modify my trajectory with a combination of the WASD keys and slight mouse movements. This really is a total non issue.

CORaven wrote: »

Grand, I did not take into account the scroll wheel on a mouse. But you do lose control of movement to a certain degree if you need to press the "F" key for example.

In the same way you lose even more control pressing a face button on a gamepad. Anyway say you lose the use of the F key for 10 seconds because you are a complete moron and it doesn't take you a fraction of a second to press it like a normal person. You can still go in the direction you want including right by using the mouse and a combination of W and S.

CORaven wrote: »

Ok, I may have exaggerated the right angles. 45 degrees is a really reoccurring theme for me whenever I boot up a PC shooter and it has always stood out to me. I do not think that it has to do with engine limits as you said.

This really is ridiculous especially considering that games are ported accross consoles and PC nowadays. Do you think infinity ward went into CoD MW2 and changed all the winding corridors to 45 degree angles to help out the poor PC gamers with their poor control scheme? DICE must have been utterly crazy when they made Battlefield 2 on the PC with levels that far eclipse anything in Halo for scope and complexity. No wonder that game did so poorly. Halo 1 and 2 came out on PC and nobody had trouble navigating the repetitive corridors.

CORaven wrote: »

FPS & TPS, yes. Although I stand by the fact that movement capabilities and multitasking are better on a controller.

Firstly movement on a controller is not better than on a kb and mouse. Your turning speed is severely restricted and you have less control of the movements of the thumbstick since it is not 1:1 like on a mouse. As for multitasking, go watch some pro starcraft play and check out the 'micro' for some extreme multitasking that would be impossible on a gamepad.

Retr0gamer

Grumpypants wrote: »

RTS K&M or Move

Move? Eh I don't think so.

Funky

CORaven wrote: »

It is not revolutionary, but it is nice to see layouts and junctions in maps that are not all a multiple of 45degrees. And regards the RTS, good control systems for console RTSs are out there that are on par with a K&M.

Please elaborate. Maybe terrible RTS designed only for consoles involving no multitasking or reflexes? Cause I'm pretty sure I could go out on a limb and claim that I could most likely play 1v4 in Starcraft vs the best pad players and win. There's just no way a pad can ever compare to a KB+M in an RTS that requires any multitasking/skill. I know you're desperate to validate your point of view but most of what you say is just wrong.

ED E

Grumpypants

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Move? Eh I don't think so.

Oh ya its fantastic zoom in/out, rotate full 360 degrees, scroll around the map, pick units track out their movements, manage complex menus all with one hand and all from the comfort of a recliner.

Better range of movement than a mouse and just a accurate.

Jazzy

Grumpypants wrote: »

Oh ya its fantastic zoom in/out, rotate full 360 degrees, scroll around the map, pick units track out their movements, manage complex menus all with one hand and all from the comfort of a recliner.

Better range of movement than a mouse and just a accurate.

um no

Grumpypants

Jazzy wrote: »

um no

Oh well how can I argue with such a well rounded, well made argument.

CORaven

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Controls for RTS on consoles haven't progressed much since that game or else are ridiculously complicated and still no where near as good with the mouse. RTS on consoles has been around far longer than FPS games and yet the controls are no where near as good.

I recommend you play Halo Wars. It is nowhere near as intense as StarCraft, but the controls are very fluid and idiot proof. Using this as a base and adding concepts from other console RTSs, such as C&C:KW's radial menu to add missing standards such as squads and remote recruitment, you are on par with a K&M.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I've played enough PC FPS games and I feel in total control of both my movement and aiming. Say I'm aiming at an enemy and want to go backwards and to the left. I press both A and S and modify my trajectory with a combination of the WASD keys and slight mouse movements. This really is a total non issue.

Take the above scenario on the left. In this instance you are the blue circle, enemy is the red one. We will say that you need to retreat to behind that wall for cover while shooting at the red fellow. If you do it with an analogue stick you can potentially do it as the crow flies and get there asap. When using a K&M, as you are actively aiming at a guy, you are unable to readjust your movements when your aiming starts to curve you and you will hit the wall unless you release the D key.
Assuming the enemy stays still or moves in any direction other than exactly S45'E constantly, K&M will bump into the wall or take longer than the fluid movement of a gamepad.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

In the same way you lose even more control pressing a face button on a gamepad. Anyway say you lose the use of the F key for 10 seconds because you are a complete moron and it doesn't take you a fraction of a second to press it like a normal person. You can still go in the direction you want including right by using the mouse and a combination of W and S.

Gamepad movement would be completely unhindered. You could even face someone shooting you and attempt to strafe.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

This really is ridiculous especially considering that games are ported accross consoles and PC nowadays. Do you think infinity ward went into CoD MW2 and changed all the winding corridors to 45 degree angles to help out the poor PC gamers with their poor control scheme? DICE must have been utterly crazy when they made Battlefield 2 on the PC with levels that far eclipse anything in Halo for scope and complexity. No wonder that game did so poorly. Halo 1 and 2 came out on PC and nobody had trouble navigating the repetitive corridors.

I was taking console exclusives Vs Pc exclusives into account, but I will have to back this up better with examples from maps and present it better. Will do at a later date.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Firstly movement on a controller is not better than on a kb and mouse. Your turning speed is severely restricted and you have less control of the movements of the thumbstick since it is not 1:1 like on a mouse. As for multitasking, go watch some pro starcraft play and check out the 'micro' for some extreme multitasking that would be impossible on a gamepad.

Yet to have a problem with that 1:1 thing. I must have a great sense of direction so.
SC2 is a little insane and one of the higher up in levels of micromanagement requirements. As for other RTSs I have played: AoE series*, C&C series, CoH, DoW series, Total Annihilation and Supreme Commander. They all worked fine with a controller.

AlmightyCushion

CORaven wrote: »

Take the above scenario on the left. In this instance you are the blue circle, enemy is the red one. We will say that you need to retreat to behind that wall for cover while shooting at the red fellow. If you do it with an analogue stick you can potentially do it as the crow flies and get there asap. When using a K&M, as you are actively aiming at a guy, you are unable to readjust your movements when your aiming starts to curve you and you will hit the wall unless you release the D key.
Assuming the enemy stays still or moves in any direction other than exactly S45'E constantly, K&M will bump into the wall or take longer than the fluid movement of a gamepad.

I fail to see the problem here, on both a controller and kb&m you will hit the wall as you move your mouse/right analog stick to aim at the enemy. On your controller you change the direction of the left analog stick, on the kb&m you alter your use of the buttons (e.g. instead of holding down s and d you hold down s and tap d or something like that). If either is more efficient at this then I can't imagine it's much of a difference.

Jazzy

Grumpypants wrote: »

Oh well how can I argue with such a well rounded, well made argument.

you cant because the arguement you have made in the first place is sh1t. sorry

Retr0gamer

CORaven wrote: »

I recommend you play Halo Wars. It is nowhere near as intense as StarCraft, but the controls are very fluid and idiot proof. Using this as a base and adding concepts from other console RTSs, such as C&C:KW's radial menu to add missing standards such as squads and remote recruitment, you are on par with a K&M.

There's a reason Halo Wars is nowhere near as intense as Starcraft. It's because if it was coming anywhere near as intense as starcraft it wouldn't be managable on a gamepad. Halo Wars is dumbed down compared to PC RTS games. Also nobody plays C&C:KW on the PC because of consolitis.

CORaven wrote: »

Take the above scenario on the left. In this instance you are the blue circle, enemy is the red one. We will say that you need to retreat to behind that wall for cover while shooting at the red fellow. If you do it with an analogue stick you can potentially do it as the crow flies and get there asap. When using a K&M, as you are actively aiming at a guy, you are unable to readjust your movements when your aiming starts to curve you and you will hit the wall unless you release the D key.
Assuming the enemy stays still or moves in any direction other than exactly S45'E constantly, K&M will bump into the wall or take longer than the fluid movement of a gamepad.

And yet I've more problems catching the edge of walls in the same scenario on a gamepad but none on a keyboard and mouse. As with almightycushion I see no problem there.

CORaven wrote: »

I was taking console exclusives Vs Pc exclusives into account, but I will have to back this up better with examples from maps and present it better. Will do at a later date.

Crysis: Bugger all debris on the ground and a sea of 45 degree angled corridors.