Ferrybank Shopping Centre - Again

Dicky Pride

After the dunnes court case someone will have to step up and take responsibility for the place. Hopefully someone with a bit of initiative and some innovation. The place should be lit up for Christmas, instead it looks like a very expensive puppy that has been left behind at the pound.

From a consumer point of view I'd like to see a new retailer go in and provide some more competitiveness to the region. I realise however that the chances of that are slim now. It's strange how there aren't more pictures floating about of the inside of the building. Would be interesting to see how it could be utilised for another use.

wellboytoo

I am saying it for a long time, we will see a large part of it demolished unless a use other than retail can be found, it is too big , on square footage terms it is five times bigger than City Square!!!
That is the scale of the mistake/blunder/stupidity,it will cost too much to keep security on it and the inevitable will happen, don't like saying it but it is happening all over the country, it is cheaper to demolish some of these celtic Tiger monsters and bring closure than have a weeping wound for years and years.

Dicky Pride

wellboytoo wrote: »

I am saying it for a long time, we will see a large part of it demolished unless a use other than retail can be found, it is too big , on square footage terms it is five times bigger than City Square!!!
That is the scale of the mistake/blunder/stupidity,it will cost too much to keep security on it and the inevitable will happen, don't like saying it but it is happening all over the country, it is cheaper to demolish some of these celtic Tiger monsters and bring closure than have a weeping wound for years and years.

Out of curiosity can you give me some examples of buildings that have been demolished for similar reasons. Would be interesting to see where the precedent has been set.

wellboytoo

The minister for ghost estates? last week admitted they will have to demolish and put back to green fields a number (?) of unfinished estates as they are "in the wrong place".
a large number of commercial unfinished units were demolished earlier this year in Portlaoise due to the vandalised and dangerous condition they were in.

Six beautifull new units on the way into Youghal from the waterford side totally vandalised wiring pulled out windows broken etc, matter of time before the wreckers ball hits them.
A couple closer to home I won't mention but it will have to happen , there is too much in the wrong place and the care and maintenance is too expensive, it just takes time for the bean counters to realise it , and then someone plays the Health and saftey card and down it comes.
Look around where you live I garuntee you can see the decline in newly built property that was never finished or opened, when the Banks finally make a decision on them it may be tthe wreckers ball is the cheapest option

Dicky Pride

Ok, no offence, but you said that it was happening all over the country. In reality you have highlighted one case where it was more than likely knocked for the safety of the public.

This is a completely different scenario. You are suggesting that we demolish a unit, although over sized, that hasn't had one single case of graffiti or damage and it certainly would not be in the public'a best interest to tear it down. Bit of a difference between demolishing some half finished houses and a multi-million euro commercial property.

Bards

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Out of curiosity can you give me some examples of buildings that have been demolished for similar reasons. Would be interesting to see where the precedent has been set.

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/07/07/nama-says-it-has-no-plans-at-present-to-demolish-more-property/

Finnbar01

Bards wrote: »

It would be better if it were knocked, it's too big and in the wrong location.

The small shopping complex that is Ross Abbey( about same size as Ardkeen stores) should be opened instead.

Why do you think it should be knocked? Wouldn't you think it would be better to sell it off to the highest bidder?

gman2k

Ferrybank shopping centre will not be knocked, it is a viable centre with the right anchor tenants. It will take a number of years, but it will be fully occupied and successful.
The Empire State Building was an empty development upon completion, due to the Great Depression taking hold. Should it have been knocked?

wellboytoo

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Ok, no offence, but you said that it was happening all over the country. In reality you have highlighted one case where it was more than likely knocked for the safety of the public.

This is a completely different scenario. You are suggesting that we demolish a unit, although over sized, that hasn't had one single case of graffiti or damage and it certainly would not be in the public'a best interest to tear it down. Bit of a difference between demolishing some half finished houses and a multi-million euro commercial property.

None taken,but it is my opinion based on a lifetime in the construction industry and watching the banks over the last five years and the slow dawning of reality on them.
They Nama will play this out as long as they can but the day will come when the out goings will not make sense to them, the beanies will decide to cut security costs and read above for the rest of the storey.
I hope I'm wrong but history normally repeats itself.
We are not going to agree on this but economics will now decide what will happen to this building which would not have been built if the right decisions had been made by all parties initially.

Bards

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Why do you think it should be knocked? Wouldn't you think it would be better to sell it off to the highest bidder?

Nope, it would destroy what is left of waterford city centre, good planning would indicate that this should never open as a shopping centre.

wellboytoo

gman2k wrote: »

Ferrybank shopping centre will not be knocked, it is a viable centre with the right anchor tenants. It will take a number of years, but it will be fully occupied and successful.
The Empire State Building was an empty development upon completion, due to the Great Depression taking hold. Should it have been knocked?

Yes if it was in ferrybank, apples with apple's please
My mammy is from Ferrybank and in all her eulogising of Kilkenny even she never compared it to Manhatton.

fricatus

wellboytoo wrote: »

My mammy is from Ferrybank and in all her eulogising of Kilkenny even she never compared it to Mahhatton.

Brilliant! Quote of the year!

lassykk

Went in there yesterday and was surprised how "open" the centre was to explore. I walked up to the top of the building that the library is in and ended up in an incomplete room with a huge hole down to a different floor (protected by a railing) Still surprised everywhere was open though



Some pics of the view from the top floor

Finnbar01

Going on Layssk posting, it is only a matter of time that it will be vandalised or even burned down.

mike65

Esp as he has just advertised ease of access.

lassykk

Being a bit dramatic lads aren't ye? :rolleyes:

A shopping centre that is only accessible during the hours the library is open isn't likely to attract people who are going to burn the place down!

As for advertising it. Anyone who has been in the new library will see who open the place is. Hardly me trying to incite vandalism or burning the place down :rolleyes:

Dicky Pride

Old age has riddled your body with cynicism Mike.

Finnbar01

lassykk wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ha! That's what you think. What do you expect that's going to happen to it?

If you can gain access to it, why do you think the scumbags can't?

ETA: Incidentally, I'm not for a moment suggesting that you would vandalise or burn the place down.

Morte

Dicky Pride wrote: »

From a consumer point of view I'd like to see a new retailer go in and provide some more competitiveness to the region.

Ferrybank Shopping Centre is 23,000 sq metres. The Pavillions in Swords is 43,000. Taking it as being half the size means it would need 40 or so retailers to come in :eek:. This isn't about getting Dunnes to come in. You would need Dunnes and Marks and Spencers and Brown Thomas and Zara and H&M and Easons and HMV and about a dozen more medium sized shops and about two dozen smaller ones. There is no prospect whatsoever of all these businesses coming to Waterford in the middle of a depression.

Ferrybank Shopping Centre is nothing like anything in Waterford already. If it did open up it would be a perfectly viable replacement for the city centre as a destination to do your shopping. Taking such a big chunk of business away from the centre would only accelerate the downward spiral it's on and it would likely take a generation to recover from it.

wellboytoo

Morte wrote: »

Ferrybank Shopping Centre is 23,000 sq metres. The Pavillions in Swords is 43,000. Taking it as being half the size means it would need 40 or so retailers to come in :eek:. This isn't about getting Dunnes to come in. You would need Dunnes and Marks and Spencers and Brown Thomas and Zara and H&M and Easons and HMV and about a dozen more medium sized shops and about two dozen smaller ones. There is no prospect whatsoever of all these businesses coming to Waterford in the middle of a depression.

Ferrybank Shopping Centre is nothing like anything in Waterford already. If it did open up it would be a perfectly viable replacement for the city centre as a destination to do your shopping. Taking such a big chunk of business away from the centre would only accelerate the downward spiral it's on and it would likely take a generation to recover from it.

That post puts it very much in context, can anyone with their hand on their heart see it opening ?

Jason Todd

wellboytoo wrote: »

That post puts it very much in context, can anyone with their hand on their heart see it opening ?

Could it be used as say an Irish or European HQ the next time someone like Google or Facebook or Twitter need one, could it be put forward in some sort of bid? Maybe linked to the college through some graduate scheme?

I don't know much about planning or how the education system might work in this case but just throwing it out there!

Morte

I read recently of some American shopping malls being converted to office space for large companies. It's obviously not ideal compared to purpose built offices but it is doable.

Realistic though? No. For anybody large enough to want it Cork is probably at the limit of how small a city they'd be interested in. The unofficial word on the net and papers is that Google point blank refused to consider Cork no matter what incentives the government threw at them. We'd never be able to match Cork for a university, airport, etc, even if the government gave us everything we could wish for. If somebody wanted a large amount of lower end office workers maybe but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for such an opportunity to come up.

road_high

Morte wrote: »

Ferrybank Shopping Centre is 23,000 sq metres. The Pavillions in Swords is 43,000. Taking it as being half the size means it would need 40 or so retailers to come in :eek:. This isn't about getting Dunnes to come in. You would need Dunnes and Marks and Spencers and Brown Thomas and Zara and H&M and Easons and HMV and about a dozen more medium sized shops and about two dozen smaller ones. There is no prospect whatsoever of all these businesses coming to Waterford in the middle of a depression.

Ferrybank Shopping Centre is nothing like anything in Waterford already. If it did open up it would be a perfectly viable replacement for the city centre as a destination to do your shopping. Taking such a big chunk of business away from the centre would only accelerate the downward spiral it's on and it would likely take a generation to recover from it.

I agreee, scandolous planning. Would suck the life out of the city completely. Actually a blessing in disguise Dunnes pulled out.

Is there any way it could be converted to something else? Conference Centre? As it would not take too much from existing business in the area.

hardybuck

mfitzy wrote: »

I agreee, scandolous planning. Would suck the life out of the city completely. Actually a blessing in disguise Dunnes pulled out.

Is there any way it could be converted to something else? Conference Centre? As it would not take too much from existing business in the area.

Multi story car park with a shuttle bus over to town. Reclaim the space on the quays in the process.

Won't be able to take all of the space, but would certainly put a decent sized chunk to work.

Dicky Pride

Well, we could be looking at this the wrong way. The shopping centre is only a couple of mins from the centre of town. The damage has already been done in the city centre in my opinion and in January we're going to see a hell of a lot more businesses shutting down. The opening of Ferrybank would create a lot of jobs and the money would be pumped back into the city - it's just up to the city to give them decent reasons to spend that money - The Winterval being a prime example.

Bards

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Well, we could be looking at this the wrong way. The shopping centre is only a couple of mins from the centre of town. The damage has already been done in the city centre in my opinion and in January we're going to see a hell of a lot more businesses shutting down. The opening of Ferrybank would create a lot of jobs and the money would be pumped back into the city - it's just up to the city to give them decent reasons to spend that money - The Winterval being a prime example.

Eh no. The rates would go to Kilkenny County Council.

While Waterford City Council suffers a dramatic fall in rates. Not very fair if you ask me

Dicky Pride

Bards wrote: »

Eh no. The rates would go to Kilkenny County Council.

While Waterford City Council suffers a dramatic fall in rates. Not very fair if you ask me

Where do you think all the employment would come from? Where do you think all the money would be spent? Waterford City Council need to make some reforms to their own rates as I know of 2 pubs and 3 businesses that will be shutting shop come january...not simply because of rates, but they're definitely part of the problem.

You have made your decision that you want Ferrybank Shopping Centre knocked to the ground and there's going to be no moving you from that position. But I can think of a couple of hundred people that would be very grateful of the work.

We should be opening more shops, not watching them shut down.

Finnbar01

mfitzy wrote: »

Is there any way it could be converted to something else? Conference Centre? As it would not take too much from existing business in the area.

It could be sold off as a conference centre perhaps or maybe something else. I don't know really but what I do know is that it needs to be sold off to the highest bidder ASAP.

Kotek Besar

How much use would a conference centre in Ferrybank see?

road_high

Kotek Besar wrote: »

How much use would a conference centre in Ferrybank see?

Well it's in Waterford and (I think) Waterford lacks a bigger conference venue....more use than the shopping centre anyhow
Nothing wrong with the building in itself at all, it's just its' location and scale are all wrong.

Kotek Besar

Well it's in Kilkenny but regardless, there are plenty of hotels nearby that are perfectly capable of providing (and do provide) conference facilities. There's no need for a specialised oversized conference building.

road_high

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Well it's in Kilkenny but regardless, there are plenty of hotels nearby that are perfectly capable of providing (and do provide) conference facilities. There's no need for a specialised oversized conference building.

It might be in Co. Kilkenny but is Waterford in a general sense.

I'm not familiar with the local Hotels and what they offer to be honest. I remember reading somewhere before it (Waterford) lacked major Conference facilities so I was thinking this buidling could fill that niche without harming other businesses too much.

Dicky Pride

The conference facilities in Waterford City Centre are shockingly poor. There is absolutely no chance that it will ever be used for that purpose though.

Bards

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Where do you think all the employment would come from? Where do you think all the money would be spent? Waterford City Council need to make some reforms to their own rates as I know of 2 pubs and 3 businesses that will be shutting shop come january...not simply because of rates, but they're definitely part of the problem.

You have made your decision that you want Ferrybank Shopping Centre knocked to the ground and there's going to be no moving you from that position. But I can think of a couple of hundred people that would be very grateful of the work.

We should be opening more shops, not watching them shut down.

..and another couple hundred who would be well peeved of after loosing their jobs. Employees do not pay rates, if it opened it would force the majority of shops in waterford city centre to shut up shop. With no rateable income waterford would seriously suffer.

Is this what you want, just for the convenience of not having to drive into the city centre and pay for parking?

BBM77

I also believe that it should be knocked down. The Ferrybank shopping centre does not follow any guidelines from the dept of the environment regarding retail development. That is why the first time around an bord pleanala refused it planning permission, it only got planning permission the second time around because the developers convinced an objector to withdraw his objection. It should never have been built.

Dicky Pride

Bards wrote: »

..and another couple hundred who would be well peeved of after loosing their jobs. Employees do not pay rates, if it opened it would force the majority of shops in waterford city centre to shut up shop. With no rateable income waterford would seriously suffer.

Is this what you want, just for the convenience of not having to drive into the city centre and pay for parking?

First of all, we all agree that it shouldn't have been built, but that is no reason for it to be knocked down now. It would, without a doubt be the most extreme and embarrassing case of a demolition of debt. The whole country and beyond would laugh at us. It wouldn't take long of the video to go viral and that isn't the kind of press that this county needs.

Bards, I just don't accept your reasoning at all. I don't hear you complaining about the new Dealz that has gone into town that will almost certainly shut the other two pound shops. Where is your sympathy for these jobs? There's a new jeans shop after opening up in the old 3G store...surely that will put pressure on JC originals and shops like heroes etc. Any sympathy for these? Let's just stop all new shops opening up because it will put pressure on existing outlets.

The only negative impact I can see is that Waterford City will not get the rates...but they will benefit from the jobs and the restaurants, bars, shops etc in the city centre will benefit from the increased spend.

I repeat...it should never have been built but I really am flabbergasted that any rational thinking human being being could justify knocking it to the ground. There's a good reason to believe that the centre opening up could herald a change in fortune for Waterford, there's no point in being afraid of new retail stores coming to this part of the world.

wellboytoo

The new WIT in carriganore has conference facilities for up to two thousand.

Dicky Pride

wellboytoo wrote: »

The new WIT in carriganore has conference facilities for up to two thousand.

I didn't know that. That's excellent. I was really just speaking about the hotels. Are those conference spaces available for rent at a reasonable rate?

Bards

Dicky Pride wrote: »

First of all, we all agree that it shouldn't have been built, but that is no reason for it to be knocked down now. It would, without a doubt be the most extreme and embarrassing case of a demolition of debt. The whole country and beyond would laugh at us. It wouldn't take long of the video to go viral and that isn't the kind of press that this county needs.

Bards, I just don't accept your reasoning at all. I don't hear you complaining about the new Dealz that has gone into town that will almost certainly shut the other two pound shops. Where is your sympathy for these jobs? There's a new jeans shop after opening up in the old 3G store...surely that will put pressure on JC originals and shops like heroes etc. Any sympathy for these? Let's just stop all new shops opening up because it will put pressure on existing outlets.

The only negative impact I can see is that Waterford City will not get the rates...but they will benefit from the jobs and the restaurants, bars, shops etc in the city centre will benefit from the increased spend.

I repeat...it should never have been built but I really am flabbergasted that any rational thinking human being being could justify knocking it to the ground. There's a good reason to believe that the centre opening up could herald a change in fortune for Waterford, there's no point in being afraid of new retail stores coming to this part of the world.

For as long as it survives, it remains a threat to the viability of the city centre. Once the tide turns and growth starts again, then large multiples will look to out of town shopping centres like this centre to undercut the exisitng retailers in the city.

I for one do not want to see an empty city centre with all the retailing on the fringes. I am not against other retailers opening up in the city even if they are in competition with each other, aka Dealz.

We need as much retail as we can get and keep in the core City Centre.

fricatus

Dicky Pride wrote: »

But I can think of a couple of hundred people that would be very grateful of the work.

Don't fool yourself that these would be new jobs though. This would amount to job displacement, not job creation. If Ferrybank opens, you will see more closures in the city centre, and with any loss of footfall, you would also see pressure on the many nice coffee shops and little restaurants that have opened over the past few years.

When tourists come to town, they're dropped down by Waterford Crystal and get to roam around the viking triangle and may head up to City Square or John Roberts Square for a little shopping. Do we really want them to see only vacant units and "cash for gold" outlets because all the quality shopping has gone across to Ferrybank?

Seriously, if you've ever been to the US, you will know the way in which downtown areas have been all but killed off by the malls. They're trying to bring people back, but it's an uphill struggle, and it's where we will be in 20 years if this centre is allowed to open. I couldn't believe that in downtown Pittsburgh (a city of 2 million) there wasn't an Abercrombie or Banana Republic!

If you need an example closer to home, look at what has happened to Limerick through the Parkway and Crescent centres being allowed to expand and get all the best shops. A straw in the wind is the way Permanent TSB no longer have a city centre branch in Waterford. There is time to stop this from happening, and the way to stop it happening is to make sure that Ferrybank is not allowed to open as a shopping centre.

Dicky Pride

The damage has already been done in Waterford. There is a pretty sizable population in and around ardkeen, but they're spoilt for choice out there and on a daily and weekly basis they really have no need to come into town.

Tesco, NEXT, Homebase, Ardkeen stores, Lidl, Chemists...banks...restaurants...super pubs. Some would say they have it better than the people living in town!

This is much bigger problem than any that Ferrybank could pose. If they could get a bridge from town over to that end of Ferrybank it could easily be linked with the city as it would be just a stone's throw away. Pie in the sky maybe, but more realistic than knocking it to the ground.

Also, with regards to shops closing, it's the competition within the city that's going to do the most damage imo. That and all the ardkeen heads not coming into the city.

Bards and fricatus, I actually agree with a lot of things that you're saying and the only thing I strongly disagree with is the absurd suggestion that the building should be knocked to the ground. I don't know how you can't see how embarrassing this would be for us all.

hardybuck

Dicky Pride wrote: »

The damage has already been done in Waterford. There is a pretty sizable population in and around ardkeen, but they're spoilt for choice out there and on a daily and weekly basis they really have no need to come into town.

Tesco, NEXT, Homebase, Ardkeen stores, Lidl, Chemists...banks...restaurants...super pubs. Some would say they have it better than the people living in town!

Sure what population are those services catering for? 25,000? Between the Dunmore Road, Williamstown etc. areas you've people coming in from Woodstown, Dunmore, Passage etc for those services.

Doesn't the Lisduggan area have a big shopping centre as well as new Aldi and Tesco around the corner?

It's far from unusual to put services close to where people live.

Dicky Pride

hardybuck wrote: »

Sure what population are those services catering for? 25,000? Between the Dunmore Road, Williamstown etc. areas you've people coming in from Woodstown, Dunmore, Passage etc for those services.

Doesn't the Lisduggan area have a big shopping centre as well as new Aldi and Tesco around the corner?

It's far from unusual to put services close to where people live.

I'm not complaining about it. I'm merely saying that this is a contributory factor to the city centre suffering. Surely you knew that's what I meant.

hardybuck

Dicky Pride wrote: »

I'm not complaining about it. I'm merely saying that this is a contributory factor to the city centre suffering. Surely you knew that's what I meant.

I never mentioned that you were complaining, but pointed out that it isn't unusual for large population centres to have services, and highlighted Lisduggan as another example. You've mentioned that this sort of thing is damaging to Waterford, a problem for the city and the residents out there are spoilt.

What's happened in Ardkeen and Lisduggan is no different to any of the other cities. If Waterford wants to draw more shoppers into town, it must produce a wider social development plan as opposed to not allowing services to be provided close to where people live.

A lot of the property currently in town does not belong in a modern city centre and isn't fit for purpose. There needs to be a greater focus on mixed development in the future - offices, apartments and retail.

Green Hornet

I work in Wexford and people up here would welcome the opening of the centre with a large retailer. They would travel down to Waterford whereas they don't at the moment. I'm sure it's the same for the general catchment area. It would bring people to the area and surrounds that currently don't travel down. Can only be a good thing if it brings footfall to the area. I'm baffled as to why people would not want that just because of the usual Waterford/Kilkenny nonsense that goes on..........I'm not originally from either by the way.

fricatus

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Bards and fricatus, I actually agree with a lot of things that you're saying and the only thing I strongly disagree with is the absurd suggestion that the building should be knocked to the ground. I don't know how you can't see how embarrassing this would be for us all.

I get where you're coming from about knocking it down - it certainly would be absurd to consider demolition as the initial option. That's why I suggested that it could work as office space - a call centre would be the ideal tenant there - or else as low-cost office space for startups.

However for the reasons I've outlined, I believe that the no 1 worst option from Waterford city's point of view is to allow this place to open as a shopping centre.

Therefore if no use can be found for it, it makes no sense to pay for its upkeep and it should be demolished - of course that would be a last resort.

I find it interesting that you mention that it would be "embarrassing for us all". It's an interesting choice of words. I'd have thought that the worst property bubble on record, plus the worst bank bailout on record, plus the need to resort to the IMF was what was really embarrassing, and that the end result of demolishing ghost estates and ghost shopping centres was merely a footnote.

Anyway, those of us who were against this shopping centre would probably feel a different emotion - vindication - rather than embarrassment, if it were knocked down!

Faced with a choice between some temporary embarrassment and the long-term undermining of our city centre, I know which one I'd choose!

fricatus

Green Hornet wrote: »

I work in Wexford and people up here would welcome the opening of the centre with a large retailer. They would travel down to Waterford whereas they don't at the moment.

So if M&S or Brown Thomas were in Ferrybank, people in Wexford would travel to it, whereas they wouldn't go (literally) the extra mile to the city centre, where they would also have an array of other shops, plus all the nice cafés and restaurants in town?

Not saying you're wrong, but I would have to ask why? Is parking/traffic that much of a big deal?

Dicky Pride

fricatus wrote: »

So if M&S or Brown Thomas were in Ferrybank, people in Wexford would travel to it, whereas they wouldn't go (literally) the extra mile to the city centre, where they would also have an array of other shops, plus all the nice cafés and restaurants in town?

Not saying you're wrong, but I would have to ask why? Is parking/traffic that much of a big deal?

My Girlfriend spend the day in Clonmel last Thursday, just because M&S was up there. I bet there are a lot of others who have done the same.

I used the word embarrassment because of the sheer magnitude of the building that would be demolished. It would be the first of its kind and the eyes of Europe would be on us, i have no doubt about that. The financial embarrassment is not as considerable because it's being shared by half of europe.

Ethan Edwards

Dicky Pride wrote: »

My Girlfriend spend the day in Clonmel last Thursday, just because M&S was up there. I bet there are a lot of others who have done the same.

M&S is one store IN Clonmel but that yoke in Ferrybank would need at least 20 Tenants and anyone who traveled to it would stay there and never dream of crossing the bridge to the city center. The place is a disaster and should never have been built. Ferrybank could well do with an Ardkeen style development with a shopping center, a bank, dry cleaners, take away, few small shops and maybe a super pub as you called it. But not high profile retail that will take people out of an already struggling city center! If Waterford City Council have any sense they will approach any possible anchor tenant for Ferrybank and offer them tiny rates and other insentives to open in railway square.

Knocking it will not make us a laughing stock at all, we will be seen as a country trying to put right a disastrous planning decision. Kilkenny County Council will however be held up as the buffoons they are for letting it go ahead in the first place which is just an added bonus.

Dicky Pride

2 wrongs do not make a right.

You say that Ferrybank could well do with an ardkeen style development, so a supermarket...a chemist...a bank...

That could slot nicely into "Ferrybank", along with the library...maybe a citizens information centre...a creche...an internet cafe.... a lot of things that wouldn't be much threat to the city centre...