Ferrybank Shopping Centre - Again

Dicky Pride

Nobody disputes that it shouldn't have been built, but knocking it to the ground and starting again smaller could me the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Also it was waterford's own doing preventing the building of a shopping centre at Newgate and giving permission to the likes of tesco ardkeen, B&Q, TK Maxx, Harvey Norman etc to build outside of the city centre, blaming Kilkenny for our own mistakes souds a little bitter tbh.

If Waterford wanted to benefit from the Ferrybank population they should have put in a bridge of some kind at the tower hotel. That would have generated an enormous amount of footfall, but instead they throw money at other ridiculous projects.

Typical Waterford really to blame another county, especially Kilkenny for its own short comings.

The Ferrybank shopping centre is a disaster, as are all the waste lands over here that we're supposed to be filled with housing, but it's there now and it's an impressive looking building. Id guess that if it were to open 99% of the money would go back into the Waterford economy.

A marks and Spencers or a uk supermarket chain coming over would be a great move for the centre but knocking it down would make the whole region a laughing stock.

Aquos76

Bards wrote: »

It would be better if it were knocked, it's too big and in the wrong location.

The small shopping complex that is Ross Abbey( about same size as Ardkeen stores) should be opened instead.

Yes I think we are all in agreement that it's too big for the area, however, it is what it is now and surely to suggest that it should be knocked down is just ridiculous.

It is a shame to see it been left empty for so long now, hopefully though whoever is looking after it now will offer some amazing cut price deals to get some retailers in there and try get some jobs for Waterford city people along with people from the Ferrybank area.

Aquos76

Now before this discussion goes any further, please don't turn this into a Waterford/Kilkenny thing, I think we are all sick to death of that one to be honest.

fricatus

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Also it was waterford's own doing preventing the building of a shopping centre at Newgate and giving permission to the likes of tesco ardkeen, B&Q, TK Maxx, Harvey Norman etc to build outside of the city centre, blaming Kilkenny for our own mistakes souds a little bitter tbh.

You clearly weren't hanging around on Boards in 2006-2007 if you think it was "Waterford's own doing"! The city council facilitated Newgate in every way it could, but the main objectors were Brendan McCann and WCTU - hardly representative of Waterford!

As regards the list of shops, the city's retail plan makes the distinction between bulk goods (which mostly need space, vehicular access, etc.), neighbourhood facilities (e.g. supermarkets) and comparison shopping (specialised high value stuff, like clothes, jewellery, books, shoes). Comparison shopping is restricted to the city centre.

B&Q and Harvey Norman are bulk retailers (and anyway their permission was given by the county council). Tesco is a supermarket (allowable for its neighbourhood) and as for TK Maxx, remember that they had to move into the city centre from Butlerstown since they offered comparison shopping.

Remember though, that Ferrybank was not built as a neighbourhood centre, or a retail park for bulk goods. It was going to offer the whole gamut of shopping and compete with the city centre. On that basis, WCC objected. How then, can you possibly say that the current situation is "Waterford's own doing"?

Dicky Pride wrote: »

If Waterford wanted to benefit from the Ferrybank population they should have put in a bridge of some kind at the tower hotel. That would have generated an enormous amount of footfall, but instead they throw money at other ridiculous projects.

There were (and still are) plans for such a bridge - under the Gateway Improvement Scheme or something like that. But, surprise surprise, the funding has to come from central government, and so far hasn't.

Dicky Pride

Fricatus I respect the points you are making but you are deflecting blame away from authorities in Waterford using the same thin arguments that you are using to blame Kilkenny.

Waterford city allowed a lot of its shopping to disappear out of the city centre. Tesco ardkeen is so much more than a supermarket and you know it -

Electrical goods. Someone on this forum recently asked about the best place to purchase these. He wasn't point to a city centre business, but to tesco.

Clothing. A lot of people but their clothes and their baby's clothes in tesco. (And let's not forget NEXT. The city centre next closes soon)

Alcohol. No more needed to be said there.

Books, DVDs, games, toys, hardware, computers...tesco ardkeen has it all and you have, almost unbelievably for the size of Waterford city, 4 Tescos to choose from.

Silverado

I think that it is high time that an alternative use is sought for the property. It possibly could lend itself to be used for educational purposes. How about an extension of the WIT or dare I say it - University. It might even be useful for a manufacturing industry. As a shopping centre - no.

I agree that the other smaller centre is a more practical size for Ferrybank.

fricatus

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Waterford city allowed a lot of its shopping to disappear out of the city centre. Tesco ardkeen is so much more than a supermarket and you know it -

You're right of course, and there are inconsistencies. But a local authority can't police everything, and commercial realities have to come into it. Tesco really does fill a grey area. Next in Ardkeen likewise - personally I think that was a mistake, but in fairness the city council is trying to hold back the tide to a certain extent. The problem with Ferrybank is its scale: it's like a tsunami of retail floorspace in the Waterford market.

Silverado wrote: »

I think that it is high time that an alternative use is sought for the property.

Yeah... I'd hate to see it open as a shopping centre now (since that would really be the nail in the coffin for any development of the Newgate site even when things do pick up). But knocking it would be a bridge too far.

I think it would be perfect as the Kilkenny campus of the new Technological University! stir, stir, stir...

Bards

Dicky Pride wrote: »

You're joking surely.

Nope - not in the slightest, it is a hang over from the Bad Excessive planning decisions of the Celtic Tiger Years - this S.C should have been built in Waterford City Centre I.E The Newgate Development - not an out-of-town location like present

Dicky Pride

Bards wrote: »

Nope - not in the slightest, it is a hang over from the Bad Excessive planning decisions of the Celtic Tiger Years - this S.C should have been built in Waterford City Centre I.E The Newgate Development - not an out-of-town location like present

Yes but all you're doing is telling us why it shouldn't have been built. We all agree with that. You're providing no justification to tear down a building that cost millions to make. You are essentially doubling the cost of the building as well as creating more cost with constructing a new premises.

fricatus

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Yes but all you're doing is telling us why it shouldn't have been built. We all agree with that. You're providing no justification to tear down a building that cost millions to make. You are essentially doubling the cost of the building as well as creating more cost with constructing a new premises.

TBH this is a useful debate to have. My view would be that it was a mistake of the Celtic Tiger era, and to open it now would have a huge impact on the city centre for years to come.

Should we allow those negative impacts just because it's been built? I'm guessing it's in NAMA, so for better or for worse, we own it. We shouldn't just be trying to maximise the profit (or rather, restrict the losses) out of NAMA; we should be making sure that the overall economic and social impact is also taken into account.

Therefore I would say it should not be allowed to open as a shopping centre. That leaves two possibilities: conversion to another use, and demolition. Obviously conversion would be preferable. Could it be converted for use as offices? It would certainly make a landmark HQ building if somebody could convert it nicely and have some multinational put offices there.

Any architects out there who can answer this question? Certainly a lot of offices of major IT and financial companies I've visited have a certain "shopping mall" look about them. The food court is ideal as a canteen for instance. There is plenty of parking for employees. Why not?

Dicky Pride

After the dunnes court case someone will have to step up and take responsibility for the place. Hopefully someone with a bit of initiative and some innovation. The place should be lit up for Christmas, instead it looks like a very expensive puppy that has been left behind at the pound.

From a consumer point of view I'd like to see a new retailer go in and provide some more competitiveness to the region. I realise however that the chances of that are slim now. It's strange how there aren't more pictures floating about of the inside of the building. Would be interesting to see how it could be utilised for another use.

wellboytoo

I am saying it for a long time, we will see a large part of it demolished unless a use other than retail can be found, it is too big , on square footage terms it is five times bigger than City Square!!!
That is the scale of the mistake/blunder/stupidity,it will cost too much to keep security on it and the inevitable will happen, don't like saying it but it is happening all over the country, it is cheaper to demolish some of these celtic Tiger monsters and bring closure than have a weeping wound for years and years.

Dicky Pride

wellboytoo wrote: »

I am saying it for a long time, we will see a large part of it demolished unless a use other than retail can be found, it is too big , on square footage terms it is five times bigger than City Square!!!
That is the scale of the mistake/blunder/stupidity,it will cost too much to keep security on it and the inevitable will happen, don't like saying it but it is happening all over the country, it is cheaper to demolish some of these celtic Tiger monsters and bring closure than have a weeping wound for years and years.

Out of curiosity can you give me some examples of buildings that have been demolished for similar reasons. Would be interesting to see where the precedent has been set.

wellboytoo

The minister for ghost estates? last week admitted they will have to demolish and put back to green fields a number (?) of unfinished estates as they are "in the wrong place".
a large number of commercial unfinished units were demolished earlier this year in Portlaoise due to the vandalised and dangerous condition they were in.

Six beautifull new units on the way into Youghal from the waterford side totally vandalised wiring pulled out windows broken etc, matter of time before the wreckers ball hits them.
A couple closer to home I won't mention but it will have to happen , there is too much in the wrong place and the care and maintenance is too expensive, it just takes time for the bean counters to realise it , and then someone plays the Health and saftey card and down it comes.
Look around where you live I garuntee you can see the decline in newly built property that was never finished or opened, when the Banks finally make a decision on them it may be tthe wreckers ball is the cheapest option

Dicky Pride

Ok, no offence, but you said that it was happening all over the country. In reality you have highlighted one case where it was more than likely knocked for the safety of the public.

This is a completely different scenario. You are suggesting that we demolish a unit, although over sized, that hasn't had one single case of graffiti or damage and it certainly would not be in the public'a best interest to tear it down. Bit of a difference between demolishing some half finished houses and a multi-million euro commercial property.

Bards

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Out of curiosity can you give me some examples of buildings that have been demolished for similar reasons. Would be interesting to see where the precedent has been set.

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/07/07/nama-says-it-has-no-plans-at-present-to-demolish-more-property/

Finnbar01

Bards wrote: »

It would be better if it were knocked, it's too big and in the wrong location.

The small shopping complex that is Ross Abbey( about same size as Ardkeen stores) should be opened instead.

Why do you think it should be knocked? Wouldn't you think it would be better to sell it off to the highest bidder?

gman2k

Ferrybank shopping centre will not be knocked, it is a viable centre with the right anchor tenants. It will take a number of years, but it will be fully occupied and successful.
The Empire State Building was an empty development upon completion, due to the Great Depression taking hold. Should it have been knocked?

wellboytoo

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Ok, no offence, but you said that it was happening all over the country. In reality you have highlighted one case where it was more than likely knocked for the safety of the public.

This is a completely different scenario. You are suggesting that we demolish a unit, although over sized, that hasn't had one single case of graffiti or damage and it certainly would not be in the public'a best interest to tear it down. Bit of a difference between demolishing some half finished houses and a multi-million euro commercial property.

None taken,but it is my opinion based on a lifetime in the construction industry and watching the banks over the last five years and the slow dawning of reality on them.
They Nama will play this out as long as they can but the day will come when the out goings will not make sense to them, the beanies will decide to cut security costs and read above for the rest of the storey.
I hope I'm wrong but history normally repeats itself.
We are not going to agree on this but economics will now decide what will happen to this building which would not have been built if the right decisions had been made by all parties initially.

Bards

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Why do you think it should be knocked? Wouldn't you think it would be better to sell it off to the highest bidder?

Nope, it would destroy what is left of waterford city centre, good planning would indicate that this should never open as a shopping centre.

wellboytoo

gman2k wrote: »

Ferrybank shopping centre will not be knocked, it is a viable centre with the right anchor tenants. It will take a number of years, but it will be fully occupied and successful.
The Empire State Building was an empty development upon completion, due to the Great Depression taking hold. Should it have been knocked?

Yes if it was in ferrybank, apples with apple's please
My mammy is from Ferrybank and in all her eulogising of Kilkenny even she never compared it to Manhatton.

fricatus

wellboytoo wrote: »

My mammy is from Ferrybank and in all her eulogising of Kilkenny even she never compared it to Mahhatton.

Brilliant! Quote of the year!

lassykk

Went in there yesterday and was surprised how "open" the centre was to explore. I walked up to the top of the building that the library is in and ended up in an incomplete room with a huge hole down to a different floor (protected by a railing) Still surprised everywhere was open though



Some pics of the view from the top floor

Finnbar01

Going on Layssk posting, it is only a matter of time that it will be vandalised or even burned down.

mike65

Esp as he has just advertised ease of access.

lassykk

Being a bit dramatic lads aren't ye? :rolleyes:

A shopping centre that is only accessible during the hours the library is open isn't likely to attract people who are going to burn the place down!

As for advertising it. Anyone who has been in the new library will see who open the place is. Hardly me trying to incite vandalism or burning the place down :rolleyes:

Dicky Pride

Old age has riddled your body with cynicism Mike.

Finnbar01

lassykk wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ha! That's what you think. What do you expect that's going to happen to it?

If you can gain access to it, why do you think the scumbags can't?

ETA: Incidentally, I'm not for a moment suggesting that you would vandalise or burn the place down.

Morte

Dicky Pride wrote: »

From a consumer point of view I'd like to see a new retailer go in and provide some more competitiveness to the region.

Ferrybank Shopping Centre is 23,000 sq metres. The Pavillions in Swords is 43,000. Taking it as being half the size means it would need 40 or so retailers to come in :eek:. This isn't about getting Dunnes to come in. You would need Dunnes and Marks and Spencers and Brown Thomas and Zara and H&M and Easons and HMV and about a dozen more medium sized shops and about two dozen smaller ones. There is no prospect whatsoever of all these businesses coming to Waterford in the middle of a depression.

Ferrybank Shopping Centre is nothing like anything in Waterford already. If it did open up it would be a perfectly viable replacement for the city centre as a destination to do your shopping. Taking such a big chunk of business away from the centre would only accelerate the downward spiral it's on and it would likely take a generation to recover from it.

wellboytoo

Morte wrote: »

Ferrybank Shopping Centre is 23,000 sq metres. The Pavillions in Swords is 43,000. Taking it as being half the size means it would need 40 or so retailers to come in :eek:. This isn't about getting Dunnes to come in. You would need Dunnes and Marks and Spencers and Brown Thomas and Zara and H&M and Easons and HMV and about a dozen more medium sized shops and about two dozen smaller ones. There is no prospect whatsoever of all these businesses coming to Waterford in the middle of a depression.

Ferrybank Shopping Centre is nothing like anything in Waterford already. If it did open up it would be a perfectly viable replacement for the city centre as a destination to do your shopping. Taking such a big chunk of business away from the centre would only accelerate the downward spiral it's on and it would likely take a generation to recover from it.

That post puts it very much in context, can anyone with their hand on their heart see it opening ?